posted
Generally in population genetics the Y chromosome is more likely to denote migrating males - who mate with indigenous females.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's a more reasonable approach...but we are still waiting for Evergreen's evidences...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Habari: That's a more reasonable approach...but we are still waiting for Evergreen's evidences...
Evergreen Writes:
Honestly Habari I could and would, but this has been covered many times on this forum.
Lines of evidence:
1. Early use of the Bow and Arrow in Africa.
2. Early evidence of violent conflict with arrowheads first in Jebel Shahaba and later within a Natufian context.
3. Evidence of greater population density in the Kom Ombo Basin than the Ohallo II complex.
4. Evidence of macro-band migration from the Kom Ombo Basin to the Levant.
5. Evidence of assymetrical gene flow which by default is evidence of alpha-male mating selection.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's still in the vicinity of Africa, I had the impression you were talking about Southern Europe as well...do you have similar information concerning the introduction of Neolithic farmer genes in Southern Europe?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Habari: That's still in the vicinity of Africa, I had the impression you were talking about Southern Europe as well...do you have similar information concerning the introduction of Neolithic farmer genes in Southern Europe?
Evergreen Writes:
The introduction of a neolithic lifestyle into SE Europe is simply a continuation of the neolithic lifestyles introduced from Africa to the Levant during the early Holocene. The only reason scholars segregate the early Holocene migration from Africa into SW Asia from the mid-Holocene migration from SW Asia into SE Europe is to create a buffer zone between Africa and Europe in terms of culture and gene flow.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm aware of the African derived influence of the Neolithic revolution in SW Asia and Europe but what I was trying to say is that the majority of people Neolithic farmers encountered where hunter gatherers....overtime they assimilated because their technology was superior...the same thing occurred in Africa with the Bantu expansion: hunter gatherers were impressed by their technology and adopted it eventually...hunter gatherers disappeared in Africa because their lifestyle didn't produce as many offspring as Bantu farmers...the same thing occurred in Europe and South West Asia...I don't think warfare was the main reason...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Habari: I'm aware of the African derived influence of the Neolithic revolution in SW Asia and Europe but what I was trying to say is that the majority of people Neolithic farmers encountered where hunter gatherers....overtime they assimilated because their technology was superior...the same thing occurred in Africa with the Bantu expansion: hunter gatherers were impressed by their technology and adopted it eventually...hunter gatherers disappeared in Africa because their lifestyle didn't produce as many offspring as Bantu farmers...the same thing occurred in Europe and South West Asia...I don't think warfare was the main reason...
Evergreen Writes:
There is clear evidence of warfare as the reason behind the outmigration from Africa and the interaction within the Natufian sphere.
J Hum Evol. 2004 Jul-Aug;47(1-2):19-23
Early Natufian remains: evidence for physical conflict from Mt. Carmel, Israel
Bocquentin F, Bar-Yosef O.
Prior to the establishment of farming communities direct physical evidence for human conflict was rarely reported from archaeological contexts. Here we present a case of an Early Natufian (14,500-13,000 cal B.P.) projectile, classified as Helwan lunate, embedded inside the seventh or eighth thoracic vertebra sequence of a mature middle age adult male. Due to calcareous concretion four vertebras were still in anatomical connection when uncovered by F. Turville-Petre, during his excavations at Kebara cave (Mt. Carmel) in 1931.
"In this context an increasing number of documented cases of physical conflict is an additional marker for enhanced sense of territoriality characteristic of settled group sharing the region of Mount Carmel and the Galilee during the Early Natufian times."
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't twist my words...warfare is not the primary reason E3b is found at a high frequency in SW Asia and Southern Europe...it doesn't make sense...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:The only reason scholars segregate the early Holocene migration from Africa into SW Asia from the mid-Holocene migration from SW Asia into SE Europe is to create a buffer zone between Africa and Europe in terms of culture and gene flow.
"Paradoxically, it was around this period, corresponding to the end of the catastrophic floods of the 'Wild Nile', that virtually all trace of human occupation disappeared in the Nile Valley."
"Another hypothesis, however, was put forward by Connor and Marks (1986), who sugggested that adaptation to a high-water environment, based on the significant potential of resources, was ultimately unsuccessful, forcing these groups to move away in search of fresh sources of subsistence, and thus destroying the fragile equilibrium of the communities. This situation was no doubt accompanied by violent competition between different groups, and we might ask whether a cemetry of 59 human skeletons found at site 117, Jebel Sahaba, constitutes evidence of this agression."
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
Early Natufian remains: evidence for physical conflict from Mt. Carmel, Israel
Bocquentin F, Bar-Yosef O.
Here we present a case of an Early Natufian (14,500-13,000 cal B.P.) projectile, classified as Helwan lunate, embedded inside the seventh or eighth thoracic vertebra sequence of a mature middle age adult male.
Evergreen Writes:
One should note that the "Helwan Lunate" is very similar to the 'el-Khiam point' which spread from the Kom Ombo Basin to the Levant with the Mushabian Complex. This is important to remember when attempting to understand the merger of the Mushabian and Kebaran Cultures to form the Early Natufian.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
"The Natufians had a different settlement pattern from that of their predecessors. Some of their "base-camps" are far larger (over 1,000 square miles) than any of the earlier periods, and they may have lived in some of these camps for half the year or even more."
Evergreen Writes:
This is consistent with greater population density in the Nile than in the southern Levant and the movement of macro-bands from the Kom Ombo Basin to the Levant in search of new territory.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:warfare is not the primary reason E3b is found at a high frequency in SW Asia and Southern Europe...it doesn't make sense...
Evergreen Writes:
Is this suppose to represent a position? You are wasting my time. Here are the facts:
1. The reason E3b is found **at all** in SW Asia and Southern Europe is because Africans migrated to this region and spread the lineage.
2. The reason Africans migrated to these regions is because of warfare in the Kom Ombo Basin.
Let's get back to the basics. Sometimes we try so hard to make things complex we end up dumbing things down.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:2. The reason Africans migrated to these regions is because of warfare in the Kom Ombo Basin.
It was not in Southern Europe...this is just an event...gene replacement takes thousand years...warfare is not enough to explain it...do you get my point? Again it's simplistic to explain gene replacement through warfare...wars don't take thousand years...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:2. The reason Africans migrated to these regions is because of warfare in the Kom Ombo Basin.
It was not in Southern Europe...this is just an event...gene replacement take thousand years...warfare is not enough to explain it...do you get my point?
Evergreen Writes:
I get your point. But what you are doing is known as "shifting the goal post". Your original question was the "reason" this lineage spread, not why sub-lineages spread thereafter.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
"The Qadan people buried their dead in cemeteries at one of which, Jebel Sahaba, a substantial proportion could be shown to have met violent deaths. This is perhaps a further indication of territoriality and inter-group conflict."
"To the south, the harpoon-using fishermen of the central and southern sahara, the Sudanese Nile Valley and parts of East Africa are represented by a few fragmentary skeletons from Ishango, Lothagam on Lake Turkana, Early Khartoum and elsewhere which are said to show negroid physical features. Similar characteristics occur in skeletons from the Qadan cemetery at Jebel Sahaba in Nubia, where Mecta-Afalou features have also been recognised. These remains may be from a population ancestral to present-day Nilotic negroids."
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Overall I agree with you, but what I want you to understand is that gene replacement takes many years...and can't been explain only by warfare...maybe you can explain it by technology superiority as what happened in Africa with the Bantu Expansion or with the Neolithic revolution in South West Asia and Europe...we are all human beings...phenomenons that appear in Africa are similar to phenomenons that appear in South West Asia and Europe...there is no magic warfare...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Habari: Overall I agree with you, but what I want you to understand is that gene replacement takes many years...and can't been explain only by warfare...maybe you can explain it by technology superiority as what happened in Africa with the Bantu Expansion or with the Neolithic revolution in South West Asia and Europe...we are all human beings...phenomenons that appear in Africa are similar to phenomenons that appear in South West Asia and Europe...there is no magic warfare...
It can be explained by warfare. For example, the Melanesian people lived in East Asia when the Hua or Han arrived on the scene in 1000 BC. Most of these Blacks were called Qiang. The Chinese masacred these people and usually used them as sacrifice victims according to Chang. Today the Hua carry few if any Melanesian genes.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Posts:
African Archaeology By Davd Phillipson
"To the south, the harpoon-using fishermen of the central and southern sahara, the Sudanese Nile Valley and parts of East Africa are represented by a few fragmentary skeletons from Ishango, Lothagam on Lake Turkana, Early Khartoum and elsewhere which are said to show negroid physical features. Similar characteristics occur in skeletons from the Qadan cemetery at Jebel Sahaba in Nubia, where Mecta-Afalou features have also been recognised. These remains may be from a population ancestral to present-day Nilotic negroids."
Evergreen Writes:
The "Nilotic negroids" of Jebel Sahaba were a part of the Kom Ombo Basin cultures of southern Egypt. It was from this region that haplogroup E3b1 spread to the southern Levant.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
Agriculture is defined as science, art, and business of cultivating the soil, producing crops, and raising livestock. This process is to be differentiated from the event of domestication. Agriculture preceded domestication by millennia. Africans were the first people to develop microliths, enabling hunters and fishers to be more efficient through the use of the Bow and Arrow, the spear and harpoons made of stone. Grinding stones and the manipulation of vegetal resources through fire management were utilized by Central Africans as early as the Upper Paleolithic. These Central African traits gradually filtered down the Nile and into the Sahara. By the LGM Nile Valley Africans in the Kom Ombo basin were gathering wild grains and processing them on grindstones. Their diet was mainly based around the aquatic resources of the Nile. As the summer monsoons shifted north, the Egypto-Nubian Nile began to overflow with the “High Nile Floods”. This disrupted the economy of Nile Valley inhabitants at this time. Traces of violence are attested at Gebel Sahaba. It is possible that the disruption of the Nilotic economy caused bands of “delayed-return” hunter-gatherer-fishers to disburse in pursuit of resources further afield. Perhaps one band of these African Nilotes pushed forward out of the Red Sea Hills and Nile Valley into the southern Levant during this timeframe. Archaeologically known as the Mushabian.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The above post confirms that advanced technology will allow a population to survive better than less advanced like hunter gatherers, thus influencing more genetically its surrounding, it happened in Southern Europe and SW Asia especially and in areas populated by Bantus in Africa...extinction of the genetic makeup of the original population can in a much lesser extent be the results of occasional battles...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
A reminder for our resident Eurocentric parasites (i e. Debunked, Infamous, etc..) on why the objects of their admiration [the Greeks] will never escape the firm grip of their African ancestry.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Sorry to disappoint you, but there's no African ancestry in Greeks. This is according to every multi-locus analysis that's ever been conducted on them. Here's a sampling:
posted
^You're fooling no one with your cut and paste scholarship. As if the Bass didn't already destroy you on the "structure" issue. For it to have diverged into said sub-clade of E-M78, Africans must have (some time in antiquity) contributed to the European gene pool and namely to the gene pool of the ancestors of Greeks. There is ABSOLUTELY no way around this, not by calling the derivative of the parent clade European, not by denying it while scrambling for copy and paste material, nothing. As a consequence, the recent African ancestry of Greeks is a lot more apparent than it is with northern Europeans. Having diverged, the only thing that this shows is that the admixture scenario was ancient.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: Multi-locus genotype data shows no African influence in Greeks. Period.
This is ignorant. It's like you're yelling against the wind and as usual you yell right over the facts that directly undermine you.
v-13 is a sub-clade derivative of E-M78, which means that at some point in the past the ancestors of Greeks substantially admixed with or were partially comprised of African migrants. No way around this no matter how much double-speak you spew.
No African ancestry my azz, it makes up over 25% of their male ancestry. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
you wrong nigger the v13 which greek belong to originated in western asia not anywere in africa so they are western asian in origin not african get it to your negroid head e3b1c1
posted
Hey Iron Sheik. Go back to flossing your teeth with your mom's leg hairs and get off my African nuts.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
look i just want you to understand that greeks belong to v13 there i snothing african about this clade all the other clades of e3b are african also m34 my clade some say it originated in western asia but balkan people and euriopean nothing african in there ancestery since again v13 originated in western asia not africa get it dont be stubrn you know i am right e3b1c1
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: v-13 is a sub-clade derivative of E-M78
E-M78 originated in North Africa, not "Black Africa".
quote:No African ancestry my azz, it makes up over 25% of their male ancestry.
Then show me where that ancestry is represented in this chart:
It originated in southern egypt/Northern Sudan, which is full of blacks, the North Africa/Black Africa dividing line is mythical.
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:E-M78 originated in North Africa, not "Black Africa".
It actually originates in northeast Africa and there's no such thing as "Black Africa", you are begging the question. It obviously emerged among native Black populations as it results from earlier E3b bearing migrants coming from the south along the Nile corridor (or pre-desolate/green Sahara) and into Egypt and Lybia, which coincides with the Central Saharan and later "Black Mummy" culture. There were no "white people" in Africa 13-20k YBP. Get out of this sick fantasy world you're living in. You sound like Marc and Mike with his classical age ancient Black European nonsense.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: No, the study I'm referencing defines North Africa as "Egypt/Libya".
Egypt and Libya is inhabited by blacks as well so whats your point? They didn't just arrive there either.
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^Convenient that he doesn't cite his source. Anyways, it seems once again that he's just confused. He seems to be citing Cruciani et al. who locates its point of origin in northeast Africa. There was no specificity as to an origin in Lybia anyways...
quote:“The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards. Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated their regionally distinctive branches.”
---Battaglia et al. (2008)
quote:Haplogroup E-M78, however, is more widely distributed and is thought to have an origin in eastern African. More recently, this haplogroup has been carefully dissected and was found to depict several well-established subclades with defined geographical clustering (Cruciani et al., 2006, 2007). Although this haplogroup is common to most Sudanese populations, it has exceptionally high frequency among populations like those of western Sudan (particularly Darfur) and the Beja in eastern Sudan.[...] The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup.
--- Hassan et al. (2008)
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
egypt and lybia are inhabited by blacks acording to who you r1b guy you need to understand your theory that e3b is black is wrong all the people in this forum forgot the north west africans morrocans algerians tunisians most of them e1b1b1 mainly the m81 forum now they are degently not black only a blind would consider them black still they carry e3b some of them in frequerncy of 70-85% e3b1c1
^^Convenient that he doesn't cite his source. Anyways, it seems once again that he's just confused. He seems to be citing Cruciani et al. who locates its point of origin in northeast Africa.
...amongst the "black" populations of Egypt, might be worth adding.
Furthermore, to recap...
The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplography, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup. - Hassan et al. 2008
Given the above mentioned about Cruciani et al.'s findings on E-M78* predominance in a "southern" Egyptian population, coupled with this citation, Hassan et al.'s piece most likely reflects the latter: proximity to the origin of the haplogroup.
And yes, as you cited, Battaglia et al. essentially reiterate this...
Recap: “The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper NilePosts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, I'm citing Cruciani et al. (2007), and they say that E-M78 originated in Northeastern Africa, which is defined in their study by populations from Libya and Egypt (see Table 1).
posted
^^Doesn't matter since it can't originate in both places and his samples comprise Lybian "Jews" and Lybian "Arabs" who weren't even present during the emergence of this haplogroup! LOL!! Boy, you are sloppy..
Besides, he had no data on the Sudanese and others who do (as cited above) more recently have narrowed it down to Egypt and Sudan i e., the upper Nile valley.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
And E-M78 derives from E-M35 (E1b1b) in S Egypt/NSudan.
E1b1b* originates somewhere further South, somewhere in the region bounded by Ethiopia Somalia and Tanzania, unless I'm mistaken.
E1b1b* itself derives from PN2 only 3,000 years after E1b1a & E1b1c's ancestor split from the same, and underived is predominantly sub-Saharan in distribution.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: The point is: E-M78 is North African,
So what you're saying is that because some north Africans have non African admixture this somehow makes it better and more acceptable for you, because you feel it white washes away the fact that the lineage carried amongst them is African?
Thats funny since the Africans who carry this e-m78 mutation at it's highest frequencies have no non African admixture and hence look like any indigenous African.
Anyway, the e-m78 mutation arose in an area straddling southern Egypt and northern Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: E-V13 is European,
Pray tell how any non African carries an African uni-parental marker without admixture from Africans?
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: and Greeks have no Black ancestry.
Oh ok yea thats why Greeks have that curly dark hair, dark eye etc.... and carry a derivative of a recent African Y chromosome, right?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Freehand: And E-M78 derives from E-M35 (E1b1b) in S Egypt/NSudan.
Evergreen Writes: Not only that, but E-M78 derived in this region at a time when the human remains demonstrate a phenotype most similar to recent West Africans.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic