posted
Raammis it doesn't look like your putting any effort in projecting you point of view on this matter, making two sentences every new reply doesn't qualify as a valuable contributionary post to this topic in question, at the moment your posts lead to off-topic parties which is disrespectfull to the topic starter, so in the future be more clear and expand on your point without the OT remarks or i will delete them!
Posts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:It apparently has been ruled, out which is why they carry their viewpoints
Any individual can rule out theories for whatever personal reasons. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. So can you tell me how the term Km.t in itself refers to skin tone in particular? You can declare 'case closed' however many times you want, but your declaration really isn't worth much.
quote:only a failed attempt at a senseless question made to stump and run circles with
I don't think it was a senseless question. What was senseless about it?
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:It apparently has been ruled, out which is why they carry their viewpoints
Any individual can rule out theories for whatever personal reasons. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. So can you tell me how the term Km.t in itself refers to skin tone in particular? You can declare 'case closed' however many times you want, but your declaration really isn't worth much.
What seems to be flying over you head, is the point that you have no alternative interpretations or "theories", that you can back up in a language sense. Therefore, you don't have a case to consider, other than what has already been put forth in the thread...backed up by 'concrete' evidence.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
My simple answer to you again, is to stop being lazy and read the thread. You don't mean to tell me that you didn't even bother to read the rest of the thread before posting, are you? If so, why did you post without bothering to read prior posts...to disrupt the discussion? If this isn't the case, then if you had read the thread through before posting, you wouldn't be asking the simple-minded questions you've been asking me. If you have a case, present it and back it up with language reconstruction. If not, you don't have a case, and the one that has already been presented in the thread stands firm until you do. I've been posting here for 3 years or so, and an unimportant 'newbie' like yourself, is the one who needs to be asked why you come back, when you have nothing to offer!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Any individual can rule out theories for whatever personal reasons.
So basically when you are left with individuals whom remain uncorrected, their theories should simply be labeled as coming from "personal reason" rather than rational thought based on what makes most sense?
Sort of like how people dub others as afronuts, despite clearly giving enough evidence of a black african egypt. It's either an afrocentric view or "personal" view.
quote:That has nothing to do with whether or not it's proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Scarcely anything in the scopes of scientific research are proven "beyond reasonable doubt". They are however, proven to the point of certainty, which is apparently enough.
quote:So can you tell me how the term Kmt in itself refers to skin tone in particular? You can declare 'case closed' however many times you want, but your declaration really isn't worth much.
Ask the experts or better yet browse some threads.
Meanwhile i'll modify my previous statement...case = closed, until you have an arguement that proves otherwise. (that brings us back to my former post)
Rasol even said it himself...3 years
quote:I don't think it was a senseless question.
Which is obviously why you asked it.
quote:What was senseless about it?
The very fact that you're implying some sort of rejection or ignorance toward other theories on their part, regarding the meaning of the term kmt.
Or to reiterate another point:
"Surely it would be much easier for you if you simply proposed some sort of arguement.
^ However, you have no arguement. [...] Therefore, case = closed....[insert aforementioned modifications]"
Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
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My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
My simple answer to you again, is to stop being lazy and read the thread. You don't mean to tell me that you didn't even bother to read the rest of the thread before posting, are you? If so, why did you post without bothering to read prior posts...to disrupt the discussion? If this isn't the case, then if you had read the thread through before posting, you wouldn't be asking the simple-minded questions you've been asking me. If you have a case, present it and back it up with language reconstruction. If not, you don't have a case, and the one that has already been presented in the thread stands firm until you do. I've been posting here for 3 years or so, and an unimportant 'newbie' like yourself, is the one who needs to be asked why you come back, when you have nothing to offer!
lol @ unimportant newbie. 3 years, my my that's some accomplishment. And I bet you wear your stripes with pride, but unfortunately they've been of no use here. Neeext!
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
My simple answer to you again, is to stop being lazy and read the thread. You don't mean to tell me that you didn't even bother to read the rest of the thread before posting, are you? If so, why did you post without bothering to read prior posts...to disrupt the discussion? If this isn't the case, then if you had read the thread through before posting, you wouldn't be asking the simple-minded questions you've been asking me. If you have a case, present it and back it up with language reconstruction. If not, you don't have a case, and the one that has already been presented in the thread stands firm until you do. I've been posting here for 3 years or so, and an unimportant 'newbie' like yourself, is the one who needs to be asked why you come back, when you have nothing to offer! [/qb]
lol @ unimportant newbie. 3 years, my my that's some accomplishment. And I bet you wear your stripes with pride, but unfortunately they've been of no use here. Neeext!
You are not only unimportant, you have no case. You are dismissed. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:kame black kemi black kmme black kmom be, become black
Anok ang ou Keme' nefer (Coptic; Song of Solomon) I am Black and Beautiful.
*snickering* that was the nail in the coffin good source!!! It should be done now.
Why's that, because of the quotation? Well, the usual English translation of that verse is actually "I am black but comely."
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Sort of like how people dub others as afronuts, despite clearly giving enough evidence of a black african egypt. It's either an afrocentric view or "personal" view.
There's definetely an ideology entrenched there, and that's what they're filling in all the gaps with. Modern ideologies.
quote:Originally posted by Nur:
Which is obviously why you asked it?
And not for the reason you accused me.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lol. Somebody asks you what your case is, all you have to show up for it, is "hit the showers". So, "hit the showers" is what you call your case; I tell you what, the more you make these empty-headed claims, the more you highlight just how unimportant and irrelevant you are, my friend.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:There's definetely an ideology entrenched there, and that's what they're filling in all the gaps with. Modern ideologies.
Care to elaborate? Even if afrocentrism is a "modern ideology", the theory of a black african egypt well exists outside the boundaries of afrocentric thinkers.
quote:And not for the reason you accused me.
What reason would that be? Keep in mind, I'm not aware of accusing you of anything at the moment, unless you clarify and enlighten me.
Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf: Originally posted by Raammis:
quote:There's definetely an ideology entrenched there, and that's what they're filling in all the gaps with. Modern ideologies.
Care to elaborate? Even if afrocentrism is a "modern ideology", the theory of a black african egypt well exists outside the boundaries of afrocentric thinkers.
Better question yet, is how Champollion who did field work and recovered these words from the Kmtyw, is "Afrocentric"?
What about Budge, he might have been into some 'real' Afrocentric stuff too?...
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
I apologize to the veterans on this forum for posting information that they're already familiar with, but I feel it's necessary for the newbies who come here frequently and with confused or distorted notions regarding the Ancient Egyptians, and who come with the following delusions:
Self-delusion A recent post started out with "Some claim that Kemet means black people". The key word in this first statement is "claim" which is a synonym for "believe", which seeks to place a human language in the same category as religion. You can believe in or not believe in God, that's one thing; but you don't believe that "veni" in Latin means "I came"; you either KNOW or you don't. However, this delusion leads to one that has been fabricated by the distorters of Egyptology.
Assisted delusion "The Egyptians called their country "Kmt" or "Kemet" which means "Black" after the color of the soil." This is simply an absolute lie. There is nothing in the grammar, even if one were to use an electron microscope to search for an example that the soil or earth had any connection with the use of this word. The only references to the soil in the names of Ancient Egypt were the names "TaMeri and TaMere"; "Ta" meaning "earth, land, etc." This mantra is almost always repeated to "inform" the reader of why the word "Black" for Egypt and Egyptians was used, and probably using the age old philosophy that if you repeat a lie often enough, and long enough, it soon becomes accepted as the truth. NOT if one knows better...
KEMET
A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. ***All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY***
Used as an adjective
kem;kemem;kemom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black) himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)
Used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is then used to be more specific:
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation"
kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used for Nationality
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)
Other usages
Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b) kem (papyrus) - to end, complete kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion kemi - finished products kem khet (stick) - jet black ... kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great')
Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race
Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld) Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls" kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake
Kem Amut - a black animal goddess Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield kem (wood) - black wood kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder kem.tt (plant) - a plant kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue
Using the causative "S"
S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness) S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate S_kemem - to blacken, to defile
Antonyms
S_desher - to redden, make ruddy S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds
Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > )
qem - to behave in a seemly manner Qemi - the south, Upper Egypt qem.t - reed, papyrus qemaa - to throw a boomerang qem_au - to overthrow qemam.t - mother, parent qemamu - workers (in metal, wood) qemqem - tambourines qemd - to weep qemati - statue, image - same as kemti qema - to create qemaiu - created beings Qemau;Qemamu - The Creator
Deshret - the opposite of Kemet
deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing ... deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman' deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow' deshr - a red one (m) deshr.t - a red one (f) deshru - red ones (m) deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils deshreti - two red ones
What role do you think modern ideologies have to play in how people interpret AE self-identification?
Appeal to the masses, in the form of persuasion. (in a vague sense) This question however, is better suited for the more knowledgable in this board.
Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Supercar, you've opened up. It's a given that the term dark or black (dark makes more sense since you're including shades of brown) can be used to describe a person, place or thing. But limiting it to 1 of the 3, and adding descriptives such as sacred dark and evil non-dark, how does anyone substantiate that?
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Raammis: Supercar, you've opened up. It's a given that the term dark or black (dark makes more sense) can be used to describe a person, place or thing. But limiting it to 1 of the 3, and adding descriptives such as sacred dark and evil non-dark, how does anyone substantiate that?
Well, you need to 'open up'. What do you understand from "kmtwy" or "kmtnwt"?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Raammis: keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
You do agree with this right?
Close, but it simply means 'black' [in Feminine singular], barring any determinative that follows. It goes back to everything posted in the first page of this very thread. Thus reading the prior posts of the thread cannot be overemphasized.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Well i looked through the posts again, but I have a feeling the response is all in your last post here.
"barring any determinative that follows"
So in itself there's no reference to skin tone, though it can be used to describe people on an individual basis. ie. kemsit
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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Well i looked through the posts again, but I have a feeling the response is all in your last post here.
"barring any determinative that follows"
So in itself there's no reference to skin tone, though it can be used to describe people on an individual basis. ie. kemsit
Funny you should say that even in the face of my reposting of Wally's post in this very page, which is from where you got that extract - you know, the one you've asked me as to whether I agree with it. The real question is, what else have you learnt from that post, where you got that piece from? What have you learnt about "Kmtnwt" or "kmtyw", or even "rmtKmt"? What do you think these are in reference to?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
If you look at my 1st post following the article; you know, the one you quoted but didn't respond to. I stated that the term 'dark' can be used as a descriptive. Descriptive of what? People (individuals), objects etc. You'll find that in any language. The rest just seem like unsubstantiated claims based on modern ideologies of, as rasol said earlier, black=pride. I'm signing out for the night babyboy. Pleasant dreams.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2007
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If you look at my 1st post following the article; you know, the one you quoted but didn't respond to.
You mean the one I responded to, not only with an answer but with questions, you chose to run away from?
quote:Raamis:
I stated that the term 'dark' can be used as a descriptive. Descriptive of what? People (individuals), objects etc. You'll find that in any language.
I stated that you took that piece from Wally's post, and hence, must also be aware of the other terms associated with Kmt, and accordingly asked you to tell me what you've learnt from those terms. Expectedly, you came up short...because you are not here to learn or engage in a meaningful discussion as the moderator, Nur, Rasol, and virtually everyone else has correctly observed!
quote:Raamis:
I'm signing out for the night babyboy. Pleasant dreams.
Good, it might clear your head, so that the next time you come here, you actually have answers, and not here to disrupt the discussion. Take care babyboy.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: kame black kemi black kmme black kmom be, become black
Anok ang ou Keme' nefer (Coptic; Song of Solomon) I am Black and Beautiful.
*snickering* that was the nail in the coffin good source!!! It should be done now. [
quote:Why's that, because of the quotation? Well, the usual English translation of that verse is actually "I am black but comely."
^ Completely misses the point, and is likely incorrect was well....
Black scholars point out that instead of the subordinate conjunction “but,” the original Hebrew text uses the coordinate conjunction “and,” which profoundly changes the meaning of the phrase.
I am Black and beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, like the tents of Kedar, like the curtains of Solomon.
posted
Do they really say Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation" like "nwT"(nation) after kmt or just Keme.t? You guys would have had a strong case if they named it "kmTnwT" or black people "kmtrmT" but they don't they just call their country km.t, thus the determinative noun here is pure speculation, it could be any thing.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Let's face it, 'Raamis' is non other than 'Mikefromquebec'-- The same idiot who argues that 'Arab' Sudanese are not really black!! LMAO
He just can't stand it when [black] Africans even ancient ones like the Kememu identify as black.
Just to give you a hint Mike, I mean Raamis, the Egyptians' self label does not indicate actual skin complexion so much a cultural tradition shared by many Africans in which the color black was considered sacred and symbolic of many positive things. This is something seen in African cultures as far south as Tanzania and likely was the case in Northern Sudan before the Arabization.
Other than that, as usual you got nothing to offer.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Do they really say Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation" like "nwT"(nation) after kmt or just Keme.t? You guys would have had a strong case if they named it "kmTnwT" or black people "kmtrmT" but they don't they just call their country km.t, thus the determinative noun here is pure speculation, it could be any thing.
Kemet as can be seen with the by the vowel followed by a 't' is a feminine designation of the country itself and not literally the physical land as in soil (as is the common misconception). The word for land was 'Ta'.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
But forget about Ta(land) for a second,i would like to know where we see the description of nation or people in this context, which would support the assertion about nation of "black people", or "people of black nation"? It's already known that they used kemet for something which the nation identified as, but was it really for ethnic identity? That's what is still unclear.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
According to this board Kmtyw were really confused. They called themselves Black, painted themselves Red, called foreigners Red but painted them Yellow or White.
I guess only Great Blacks were portrayed as Black and the lesser Blacks only got the perfunctory Red. Of course, when honoring foreign guests, they had to splurge a lot more, so they painted them Black or dark Brown, but someohow, most times forgot to honor them by calling them Black.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
So if other Kingdoms farther south were full of what Egyptians would perceive as Black people as well, there should be text on wall or papyrus that talks about the kmtyw from Punt, the kmtyw from Cush, the kmtyw of Meroe, etc.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Yes that's the warped English translation based on their despising dark skin.
The Hebrew authors of the text in question held no such contempt. This bit of Hebrew scripture is the first statement of BLACK AND BEAUTIFUL (a full two thousand five hundred yeas before the USA black power movement adopted the phrase) in history.
When the Yemini recording artist Shimi Tabori sang it on an English language release he used the conjunctive AND, which is also what was printed on the LP jacket and the record label.
Since Tabori, like 99.9% of Yemini Jews, has spoken Hebrew from birth and knows English as second language (in Israel) his translation is accurate correct and valid.
It reflects what we know from the Hebrews and from even the post era Judaeans:
quote: Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.
PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a
quote: ... the priest shall look on the plague; and, behold, if the appearance thereof be deeper than the skin, and there be in it yellow thin hair, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a scall, it is leprosy of the head or of the beard.
And, less some fool think a blond haired, white skinned or reddish white skinned leper was something beautiful in Hebrew eyes:
quote: when the cloud was removed from over the Tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow; and Aaron looked upon Miriam; and, behold, she was leprous.
And Aaron said unto Moses: ...Let her not, I pray, be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.'
Numbers 12:10-12
The appearance of a blond white person to ancient Hebrews was as if they were a miscarriage or a stillbirth and was frightening.
Later, after getting used to white peoples of Europe from seeing them suffused throughout the Roman empire, they excused Germans from all being lepers even though the descendants of Gehazi were know as congenital lepers.
quote: The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever.' And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
2 Kings 5:27
Yes, the correct translation is "I am black and beautiful" or alternately if one prefers, "I am dark and lovely."
In that day and time there was no reason for any black to be ashamed of their colour. For Hebrews, a Kushi's beauty was his skin as was the Aithiop's in Grecian eyes.
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by vidadavida:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:kame black kemi black kmme black kmom be, become black
Anok ang ou Keme' nefer (Coptic; Song of Solomon) I am Black and Beautiful.
*snickering* that was the nail in the coffin good source!!! It should be done now.
Why's that, because of the quotation? Well, the usual English translation of that verse is actually "I am black but comely."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: According to this board Kmtyw were really confused.
Nope. The only one confused is YOU (as usual).
quote:They called themselves Black,..
Yes
quote:painted themselves Red,..
No. Most Egyptian paintings show a peoples with dark to light brown complexions as YOU acknowledged earlier. Are you backtracking?
quote:called foreigners Red but painted them Yellow or White.
Again, we are speaking about the symbolism of the word.
quote:I guess only Great Blacks were portrayed as Black..
Egyptians symbolized themselves as black, and only the greatest among them like gods or pharoahs and powerful queens (who were considered gods also) were depicted literally in a black color:
Ausar (Osiris) as Kem-Wer
Ahmose Nefertari as divinity
quote:and the lesser Blacks only got the perfunctory Red. Of course, when honoring foreign guests, they had to splurge a lot more, so they painted them Black or dark Brown, but someohow, most times forgot to honor them by calling them Black.
No. But obviously your confusion is caused by your own frustration to accept any facts.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: thus the determinative noun here is pure speculation, it could be any thing.
This is not correct. The determinatives are written in the text - they are never a matter of speculation.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This bit of Hebrew scripture is the first statement of BLACK AND BEAUTIFUL
But you notice how some Africans will quote the anti-Kemetic biases of ws.t propaganda without even bothering to invistigate for themselves, or even use common sense?
Diop completely destroyed Eurocentric folly over the meaning of km.t 40 years ago?
Yet these - - fools - - stand around looking confused and helpless, as if their brains don't work, and can't provide them with and understanding of the meaning of words.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Yonis doesn't even know what a determinative is. His argument is one of ignorance of even the most basic Egyptic grammar and vocabulary. He hopes by having the last word to thus have the last impression embedded on enquiring minds, which is we must continue to repeat what we've already posted every season now for these years on end so that the easily impressional minded get an engraved slate of textual documentation supportive of the facts left on record by the ancient Egyptians themselves.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: thus the determinative noun here is pure speculation, it could be any thing.
This is not correct. The determinatives are written in the text - they are never a matter of speculation.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^Regardless, we do have evidence today for such color symbolism schemes in Africa.
The Oromo people (despite actual complexion of the individual) regard the color black to be sacred. They identify themselves as being 'black people' and they called their god black-- Waaqa Guuracha.
The Masai of Kenya are same in that they regard black as sacred and call themselves 'black' also. Their god Lengai is known as the Black god whose enemy is an evil demonic Red god.
Do the math.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
To clarify, the Egyptians used various ways of referring to themselves and their country. These changed somewhat over time as heiroglyphics changed over time. Km.t is a term created by WESTERN scholars to represent the heiroglyphic symbols used by the Egyptians to refer to themselves and their country. The argument is that these Western scholars have distorted the overall intent and meaning of the various ways the Egyptians wrote these references to themselves and have tried to make the term a reference to soil. This is refuted as being wrong, because many of these references in the heiroglyphic texts refer explicitly to the people. However, as there are variations of the way this reference was written in heiroglyphics, the best way to understand it is to look at actual Egyptian heiroglyphic texts, along with the translations, to understand how the Egyptiand DID INDEED refer to themselves as the black people in various texts and to see the various ways these references to their country and themselves are written, in order to see clearly the reference to the skin complexion of the people as being intended by the Egyptians.
It should be no problem to show this as there are many many texts that are available to us and is actually a good excercise for research, as having MANY concrete examples from the Egyptians themselves is far better than constant arguing over derivative grammar and rules for translating ONE word or a few words from Egyptian to English.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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This is simply a lie. Km.t prounoucned Kheme' is the word Black in Ancient Egyptian and Coptic. It is not invented by ws.t scholars.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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This is simply a lie. Km.t prounoucned Kheme' is the word Black in Ancient Egyptian and Coptic. It is not invented by ws.t scholars.
Km.t is a WORD that WESTERN scholars created to represent the HEIROGLYPHICS the Egyptians used to refer to themselves and their country, using the ENGLISH alphabet. Remember the main word used to refer to the country of Egypt today is based on the Greek bastardization of Egyptian heiroglyphs. The original Egyptian terms for their country had long been lost to MOST from the outside world by the time of the French. However, it was the French who deciphered the rosetta stone and provided a modern way of writing the ancient Egyptian language. Specifically Champollion, who deciphered the rosetta stone, came up with the spelling of km.t as we know it in the English language. And, it is he who first identified it as a reference to the BLACK skin of the inhabitants of the nile valley:
quote:Champollion the Younger, who deciphered the Rosetta Stone, claimed in Expressions et Termes Particuliers that kmt referred to a 'negroid' population. Modern day professional Egyptologists, anthropologists, and linguists, however, overwhelmingly agree that the term referred to the dark soil of the Nile Valley rather than the people, which contrasted with dSrt or the "red land" of the Sahara desert.
The issue here has been hotly debated every since.
Note, this is all about the semantics of translation, as the ancient language of Egypt is dead to us today. Therefore, many have come along and tried to act as if THEIR interperetation of the ancient language is BETTER than those that have gone before. But there is nothing regarding the way the Egyptians referred to themselves in heiroglyphics that has been found to contradict champollon. In fact, the amount of documents and inscriptions available today from ancient times provides ample basis for providing the evidence in support of Champollion's translation. However, RARELY, IF EVER, do those who support the idea of Km.t meaning "the black land" as in soil, EVER show specific examples from Egyptian heiroglyphs supporting their claims. Champollion made his determination based on the analysis of MANY references the Egyptians made to themselves in heiroglyphic texts and from this he made his conclusion. A conclusion that is supported by the heiroglyphics themselves. The main source of km.t = "the black land" is Gardiner, as many Egyptologists seem to feel his book "An Ancient Egyptian Grammar" is much more up to date and a better reference on the subject. HOWEVER, this does not change the fact, that the heiroglyphics themselves as deciphered by Champollion, Budge, Diop and others, do NOT support such a claim. It may be the fact that Gardiner was looking at certain passages from ancient Egypt that led him to this opinion, passages not similar to those deciphered by Champollion and others or it may be that he was biased. Either way, his work is the basis that those who profess such a belief rely on.
Referring to Gardiner is what is called an appeal to authority, where Gardiner is considered the ultimate authority on the matter, meaning no further investigatioh is required. In all honesty, EVERYTHING should be questioned, and everything should be reinforced by facts and evidence. In this case, the facts and evidence do not support the claim.
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quote:rasol: This is simply a lie. Km.t prounoucned Kheme' is the word Black in Ancient Egyptian and Coptic. It is not invented by ws.t scholars.
quote:Doug: Km.t is a WORD that WESTERN scholars created to represent the HEIROGLYPHICS the Egyptians
Your juxtaposition of 'word' with 'heiroglyphics' is spurious and permits you to go off on yet another obtuse tangent.
Hieroglyphics is a *system of writing*, which would be likened to alphabet.
Km.t is not alphabet - it is the word -> Black in the mdw ntr.
The word black written in alphabet is the word km.t written in heiroglyphics. They are the same word, regardless of the writing system used to express them.
Thus your remarks make no sense.
Go back to Wally's parent post please and re-read it until you understand and are ready to move forward in your education.
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quote: This is simply a lie. Km.t prounoucned Kheme' is the word Black in Ancient Egyptian and Coptic. It is not invented by ws.t scholars.
quote:Km.t is a WORD that WESTERN scholars created to represent the HEIROGLYPHICS the Egyptians
Your juxtaposition of 'word' with 'heiroglyphics' erroneous and permits you to go off on yet another obtuse tangent.
Hieroglyphics is a *system of writing*, which would be likened to alphabet.
Km.t is not alphabet - it is the word -> Black.
Black, like km.t is a word....not alphabet.
The word black written in alphabet is the word km.t written in heiroglyphics. They are the same word, regardless of the writing system used to express them.
Thus your remarks make no sense.
Go back to Wally's parent post please and re-read it until you understand and are ready to move forward in your education.
^Brilliantly put. Anyone who thinks "km.t" is European invention, as opposed to the words of the Kmtyw, is out of his/her sane mind.
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posted
Indeed, if such were the case then the whole ancient Egyptian language as we know it today (through hieroglyphics) must also be "invented by Westerners"! Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:rasol: This is simply a lie. Km.t prounoucned Kheme' is the word Black in Ancient Egyptian and Coptic. It is not invented by ws.t scholars.
quote:Doug: Km.t is a WORD that WESTERN scholars created to represent the HEIROGLYPHICS the Egyptians
Your juxtaposition of 'word' with 'heiroglyphics' is spurious and permits you to go off on yet another obtuse tangent.
The Egyptians wrote in heiroglyphics which is was a DEAD form of writing, and nobody knew how to write it or read it in the 1700s. Therefore, how the Egyptians wrote and referred to themselves was LOST to most of the world. The fact that it was no longer spoken or written meant that languages like Greek and Arabic, which were understood and spoken were used as a basis for understanding and identifying places, people and the history of Egypt. This is why you have Greek and Arabic names for places in Egypt as well as Greek names for Egyptian pharoahs and divinities. This is why many of the terms we use for aspects of Egyptian culture are mostly Greek in the first place, like pharoah or even Egypt itself.
The term Km.t, written in the English Alphabet, is the result of the decipherment of the Rosetta Stone by Champollion. He introduced the term into the Western vocabulary, using the English alphabet, when no one else had any idea what those funny pictures meant. It was he who also identified it as a reference to the Egyptian skin color.
So the POINT being made is that it was the Frenchman Champollon who FIRST introduced the term into Western Scholarship, no matter if it had been used by the Egyptians long before, since the language was no longer written and remained undechiphered up to that point. And, even more importantly, it was he who correctly identified it as a reference to skin color. Every since then, Egyptologists and other scholars have been TRYING to find a way, unsucessfully, to change the conclusion made by Champollion. In this case, none of which have worked. It is odd, but those who claim that Budge, Champollion and others are outdated NEVER provide the exact means in which their heiroglyphic translations are OUTDATED. In fact, AFAIK, Gardiner never explicitly sets out to show why his translation is better either. It is simply the fact that Gardiner provides scholars a way to REFUTE Champollion and others on this particular issue, without any relevant details or facts being provided as to WHY Gardiner is a better reference..... Which is a very important point, as it shows WHY nobody can refute the facts and observations that these people have made. They rely on arguments from authority, meaning those THEY recognize as being the authority on the Egyptian language, taking advantage of the fact that as a dead language it is easy to MAKE UP rules that really are not valid. They can do this because most dont understand the least bit about heiroglyphics and never will.
Therefore, the CREDIT for acknowledging the Egyptians as being blacks and recognizing that the Egyptians referred to themselves as blacks, in terms of the translation of their language, goes to Champollion, who deciphered the language for the Western World. It is only those who dont want to acknowledge the blackness of the ancient Egyptians who have a problem with this, especially as Champollion was NOT an Afrocentric, which therefore he cant be labelled as some hysterical ethnocentrist trying to revise history. But Champollion is but one of many historians and thinkers from Europe who have acknowledged that the Egyptians were black. Greeks, Romans, Muslims and other peoples acknowledged this before Champollion, and before that we have the surviving mummies, artwork and language of the Egyptians themselves. Therefore, it should be clear by now that this is NOT simply an issue of Afrocentrics fabricating history. It is an issue of Eurocentric FABRICATION of history.
So, contrary to the Eurocentrics and naysayers, it is not Afrocentrics who only believe in such ideas, but the father of translating the heiroglyphs himself, along with other notable scholars of all backgrounds. Therefore, it is the Eurocentrics who are showing themselves as the hysterical revisionists, as they are trying to CHANGE the conclusions of those who came before and were the main contributors to our modern understanding of ancient heiroglyphic writing and language.
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: The Black (with a land, nation, territory) as referencing a land that has rich dark soil does not need evidence of Km.t meaning Black soil. The evidence that is needed is a quote from some text that they considered the land black or even dark in color in any text. Same with the Red.
For the claimants of the Black (with a people determinative)'to mean Black people instead of People of the Black. They would have to show text that describes Egyptians as considering themselves black or even dark in color. Same with the Red. alTakrury purportedly provides this evidence, but he does not reference exact glyphs, nor does he give transliterations and translations to verify. So please show us the exact glyphs you are refering to and what you claim it is saying.
quote: I noted that when alTakruri is requested to show exactly where the evidence is in this papyri example, he never answers the question.
Yet, I was able to see what he was on about, after a quick referral to a colleague who reads hieratic better than I.
To be clear, here's what is said in hieratic (per Lichtheim 1975), in the last part of the prayer:
(1) He came to us to take the Southland: the Double-Crown was fastened to his head!
He came and gathered the Two Lands: he joined the Sedge to the Bee!
He came and ruled the Black Land: he took the Red Land to himself!
He came and guarded the Two Lands: he gave peace to the Two Shores!
(5) He came and nourished the Black Land: he removed its needs!
He came and nourished the people: he gave breath to his subjects' throats!
He came and trampled foreign lands, he smote the Bowmen who ignored his terror!
He came and fought [on] his frontier: he rescued him who had been robbed!
He came and [showed the power of his arms]: glorying in what his might had brought!
(10) He came [to let us raise] our youths: inter our old ones [by his will].
(Lichtheim 1975: 200)
"He" is, of course, the Pharaoh Senwsoret III, and these prayers are dedicated to his actions during his reign.
I fail to see where, or how, Diop or Obenga could have possibly interpreted these lines any other way than as Lichtheim has done, particularly in Line 3, where the "Black Land," denoting the fertile lands of Egypt, is counterpoised with the "Red Land," the deserts of Egypt. Lichtheim (1975: 201, n. 6) notes the term used there is /kmt/, saying "The contrast with 'Red Land' (dSr.t - KGG) makes it desirable to translate kmt as 'Black Land' rather than the conventional 'Egypt.'"
Since the overall thrust of this passage is about Senwosret III reunifying Egypt during the Middle Kingdom, allusions to the Two Lands (Red and Black Lands), and the reunification of the "Southland" (Upper Egypt) with its northern counterpart is quite clear, IMO. Hence the passage, "...he joined the Sedge to the Bee!" where the papyrus "sedge" is the symbol of Lower (northern) Egypt (Parkinson and Quirke, et al., 1995: 11; Hepper 1990: 11), while the "bee" is the symbol of Upper(southern) Egypt (Sagrillo 2000: 173) is a clear reference to the reunification of the South with the North under one king with "...the Double-Crown was fastened to his head!"
Reference:
Hepper, F. N. 1990. Pharaoh's Flowers: The Botanical Treasures of Tutankhamun. London: HMSO.
Lichtheim, M. 1975. Ancient Egyptian Literature: The Old and Middle Kingdoms. Vol. I. Berkeley: University of California.
Parkinson, R., S. Quirke, et al. 1995. Papyrus. Egyptian Bookshelf. Austin: University of Texas Press.
Sagrillo, T. 2000. Bees and Honey. In D. B. Redford, Ed., The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, 1: 172-174. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
HTH.
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Oriental Institute Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology] Oxford University Oxford, United Kingdom
quote:The Egyptians wrote in heiroglyphics which is was a DEAD form of writing
^ this is meant as and excuse for your incompetence at understanding the simplist things? nonsense. grow up Doug, and then go back and read Wally's post until you understand it.
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My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
Let's take another word for example: BLACK
as in,
Michael Jordan is black.
black
One of my simple question to you is what part of the term black is a specific reference to skin color?
Or how about white:
Way back when, I would've had to use a black restroom, and George Bush, a white restroom.
What, again, specific part of the term w-h-i-t-e is a reference to skin color?
quote:Originally posted by Technical Anomaly (What Box):
quote:Originally posted by Raammis: Supercar,
My simple question to you once again is, what part of the term Km.t makes reference to skin tone in particular? Whatever response you provide that doesn't relate to answering this question is really of no use here, and would make me wonder why you keep coming back.
Let's take another word for example: BLACK
as in,
Michael Jordan is black.
black
One of my simple question to you is what part of the term black is a specific reference to skin color?
Or how about white:
Way back when, I would've had to use a black restroom, and George Bush, a white restroom.
What, again, specific part of the term w-h-i-t-e is a reference to skin color?
What a stupid analogy, you are relating the modern use of "black" (much worse in united states where it's best established as a racial label)to a discussion sarrounding how "black" was used in an ancient society. Do yourself a favor by deleting that post immediatly since you've just managed to make a complete fool out of yourself.
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