Albinos, Long Shunned, Face Deadly Threat in Tanzania
By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN
DAR ES SALAAM, Tanzania — Samuel Mluge steps outside his office and scans the sidewalk. His pale blue eyes dart back and forth, back and forth, trying to focus.
The sun used to be his main enemy, but now he has others.
Mr. Mluge is an albino, and in Tanzania now there is a price for his pinkish skin.
“I feel like I am being hunted,” he said.
Discrimination against albinos is a serious problem throughout sub- Saharan Africa, but recently in Tanzania it has taken a wicked twist: at least 19 albinos, including children, have been killed and mutilated in the past year, victims of what Tanzanian officials say is a growing criminal trade in albino body parts.
Many people in Tanzania — and across Africa, for that matter — believe albinos have magical powers. They stand out, often the lone white face in a black crowd, a result of a genetic condition that impairs normal skin pigmentation and strikes about 1 in 3,000 people here. Tanzanian officials say witch doctors are now marketing albino skin, bones and hair as ingredients in potions that are promised to make people rich.
As the threats have increased, the Tanzanian government has mobilized to protect its albino population, an already beleaguered group whose members are often shunned as outcasts and die of skin cancer before they reach 30.
Police officers are drawing up lists of albinos in every corner of the country to better look after them. Officers are escorting albino children to school. Tanzania’s president even sponsored an albino woman for a seat in Parliament to show that “we are with them in this,” said Salvator Rweyemamu, a Tanzanian government spokesman.
Mr. Rweyemamu said the rash of killings was anathema to what Tanzania had been striving toward; after years of failed socialist economic policies, the country is finally getting development, investment and change.
“This is serious because it continues some of the perceptions of Africa we’re trying to run away from,” he said.
But the killings go on. They have even spread to neighboring Kenya, where an albino woman was hacked to death in late May, with her eyes, tongue and breasts gouged out. Advocates for albinos have also said that witch doctors are selling albino skin in Congo.
The young are often the targets. In early May, Vumilia Makoye, 17, was eating dinner with her family in their hut in western Tanzania when two men showed up with long knives.
Vumilia was like many other Africans with albinism. She had dropped out of school because of severe near-sightedness, a common problem for albinos, whose eyes develop abnormally and who often have to hold things like books or cellphones two inches away to see them. She could not find a job because no one would hire her. She sold peanuts in the market, making $2 a week while her delicate skin was seared by the sun.
When Vumilia’s mother, Jeme, saw the men with knives, she tried to barricade the door of their hut. But the men overpowered her and burst in.
“They cut my daughter quickly,” she said, making hacking motions with her hands.
The men sawed off Vumilia’s legs above the knee and ran away with the stumps. Vumilia died.
Yusuph Malogo, who lives nearby, fears he may be next. He is also an albino and works by himself on a rice farm. He now carries a loud, silver whistle to blow for help.
“I’m on the run,” he said.
He is 26, but his skin is thick and leathery from sun damage, making him look 20 years older.
Many albinos in Tanzania are turning to the Tanzanian Albino Society for help. But the nonprofit advocacy group operates on less than $15,000 a year. That’s not enough for the sunscreen, hats and protective clothing that could save lives.
Mr. Mluge, 49, is the society’s general secretary. He grew up with children pelting him with chalk in class. He said he had learned to live with being constantly teased, pinched and laughed at.
“But we have never feared like we do today,” he said.
Al-Shaymaa J. Kwegyir, Tanzania’s new albino member of Parliament, said, “People think we’re lucky. That’s why they’re killing us. But we’re not lucky.”
She said it was a curse to be born in equatorial Africa, where the sun is unsparing, with little or no protective skin pigment. Albinism rates vary throughout the world; about 1 person in 20,000 is an albino in the United States.
It is no accident that the Tanzania Albino Society’s office is on the grounds of a cancer hospital. Many of its members are sick.
The smell of the wards is overpowering, a nose-stinging mix of burn salves and rotting flesh. Many of the albino patients are covered with scabs, sores, welts and burns.
One patient, Nasolo Kambi, sat on his bed, recovering from a recent round of chemotherapy for skin cancer. His arms were splattered with dark brown splotches, like ink stains on white paper.
“People say we can’t die,” he said, referring to a superstition that albinos simply vanish when they get older. “But we can.”
Police officials said the albino killings were worst in rural areas, where people tend to be less educated and more superstitious. They said that some fishermen even wove albino hairs in their nets because they believed they would catch more fish.
On the shores of Lake Victoria, in northern Tanzania, albinos are a touchy subject. When asked if they used albino hairs in their nets, a group of fishermen just stared at the sand.
One traditional healer, a young man in a striped shirt who looked more like a college student than a witch doctor, said: “Yeah, I’ve heard of it. But that’s not real witchcraft. It’s the work of con men.”
Police officials are at a loss to explain precisely why there is a wave of albino killings now. Commissioner Paul Chagonja said an influx of Nigerian movies, which play up witchcraft, might have something to do with it, along with rising food prices that were making people more desperate.
“These witch doctors have many strange beliefs,” he said. “There was a rumor not so long ago that if you use a bald head when fishing, you’ll get rich. There was another one that said if you spread blood on the ground in a mine, you’ll find gold. These rumors come and go. The problem is, the people who follow witch doctors don’t question them.”
Mr. Mluge said whispers swirled around him whenever he walked down the sidewalk.
“I hear people saying, ‘It’s a deal, it’s a deal. Let’s get him and make some money,’ ” he said.
At home, at least, he is not an oddity. His wife is an albino. So are all five of his children. Some have already had skin cancer, in their teens.
The night used to be theirs, a time when Mr. Mluge and his fair- skinned sons and daughters could stroll outside together without worrying about the sun.
Now they bolt themselves in, peering through bars.
Just two weeks ago, while Mr. Mluge’s children were sleeping, a car pulled up to their house and four men got out to look around.
“I’m worried,” he said. “They know we are here.”
Mr. Mluge said he tried to read the license plate. But he couldn’t make out the numbers, and the car drove off.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Yet another glimpse into the future of America. The only difference is that it'll be the browns doing the shunning and attacking of all things non-brown. Hooray for Mexican and Native American power!
In 50 years there will be more Mexicans living in America than in Mexico. What a hoot that'll be! Pick up books by Pat Buchanan for more riveting stats.
Posts: 477 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Your comments get more and more insulting all the time sshaun002
Even if we concede that white people are more intelligent, I don't think there is any evidence to believe that there is a difference in superstition or xenophobia. In fact Europeans might be more tribal by nature because people in Africa and the Americas traded and interacted with different communities while Europeans were forced to compete for resources and fight for just their own clan.
Of course I would say that's because of environment not genetics
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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A man can't be judge of his neighbor's intelligence. His own vital experience is never his neighbor's.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Interesting modern insight to what may very well be an ancient pattern of African history. As Europeans migrated back into Africa they must have encountered similar physical environmental trauma as the native albino. As the European population grew, Africa would surely have experienced a significant rise in incidents of skin cancer and blindness. If the data were available, this would likely be a valid major method of tracking European to Africa migration patterns. Could these albinos or incoming Europeans been the "LEPERS" Jesus tried to help with ointments (Sun screen) as described in the bible?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Interesting modern insight to what may very well be an ancient pattern of African history. As Europeans migrated back into Africa they must have encountered similar physical environmental trauma as the native albino. As the European population grew, Africa would surely have experienced a significant rise in incidents of skin cancer and blindness. If the data were available, this would likely be a valid major method of tracking European to Africa migration patterns. Could these albinos or incoming Europeans been the "LEPERS" Jesus tried to help with ointments (Sun screen) as described in the bible?
From the article it sounds like this is more of a modern phenomenon
quote: One traditional healer, a young man in a striped shirt who looked more like a college student than a witch doctor, said: “Yeah, I’ve heard of it. But that’s not real witchcraft. It’s the work of con men.”
posted
Europeans were generally safer traveling through many places in Africa than they were in Europe. One of the things Ibn Battuta noted was that the "blacks" don't confiscate the property of foreigners who die in their country, but give it to someone dependable to hold onto until it's taken by the rightful heir.
The same was true for other places like the Congo, countless travelers have written admiringly about the law and order that existed in Africa
Weird stuff did happen but the article does seem to suggest this is a recent trend (killing albinos) Or the practice is starting to become more widespread than it previously was
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Your comments get more and more insulting all the time sshaun002
Even if we concede that white people are more intelligent, I don't think there is any evidence to believe that there is a difference in superstition or xenophobia. In fact Europeans might be more tribal by nature because people in Africa and the Americas traded and interacted with different communities while Europeans were forced to compete for resources and fight for just their own clan.
Of course I would say that's because of environment not genetics
Why are you getting him started, he didn't even bring that up? He's rambling about Mexicans or something.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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As if being an Albino is not bad enough. First you have to deal with the Sun and it's rays hurting your skin, now you have people trying to sell Albino parts as some kind of cure. These people have a hard enough life as it is. This news just made my day worse.
Thos is why I am against all kinds of witchcraft, it's all evil and should not be tolerated. Pretending Evil is good is wrong and should not be allowed.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Thos is why I am against all kinds of witchcraft, it's all evil and should not be tolerated. Pretending Evil is good is wrong and should not be allowed.
Peace
Depends on how you define witch craft, for example this doesn't have anything to do with Vodun
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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From the article it sounds like this is more of a modern phenomenon
[QUOTE]
While the article is regarding present times, Albinism is not new to Africa. It's been around in Africa for thousands of years.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Your comments get more and more insulting all the time sshaun002
Even if we concede that white people are more intelligent, I don't think there is any evidence to believe that there is a difference in superstition or xenophobia. In fact Europeans might be more tribal by nature because people in Africa and the Americas traded and interacted with different communities while Europeans were forced to compete for resources and fight for just their own clan.
Of course I would say that's because of environment not genetics
You're right. Superstition and xenophobia are no less prevalent in one group than another. It's how those things are channelled that's important. In modern western society, we've put controls on superstition and xenophobic sentiments. We do not see the same occuring elsewhere. In fact, we see a growing number of newcomers and non-european descendants fueling sentiments of hate. There is an undercurrent of racial animous and violence brewing beneath Mexico reannexation of America. Waving of Mexican flags, telling Europeans to go back to Europe, teaching history that makes Europeans out to be brutal animals that conquered their forefathers and kicked them off their lands, championing small historic victories against Europeans, calling anybody that pushes for national sovereignty a racist. These things are all culminating in irrational hatreds. You know this is true but people like you make careers out of denying it. It's to the detriment of the nation and your ivory tower jobs, or your offsprings.
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: [QUOTE]Originally posted by markellion: [QB]
From the article it sounds like this is more of a modern phenomenon
quote:
While the article is regarding present times, Albinism is not new to Africa. It's been around in Africa for thousands of years.
I meant the killing of albinos sounds like a recent phenomenon from what the article says, also, Albinos have been/are persecuted in white countries/neighborhoods
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Your comments get more and more insulting all the time sshaun002
Even if we concede that white people are more intelligent, I don't think there is any evidence to believe that there is a difference in superstition or xenophobia. In fact Europeans might be more tribal by nature because people in Africa and the Americas traded and interacted with different communities while Europeans were forced to compete for resources and fight for just their own clan.
Of course I would say that's because of environment not genetics
Just curious as to how "Even if we concede that white people are more intelligent" got into the conversation. Or why HORUS's weak response was the only one.
Sub-Saharan's are admittedly an embarrassment, as are some of their off-spring in the new world: But will we allow them to reflect on all Black people? Obviously many of you have not been reading the threads on this board.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Sub-Saharan's are admittedly an embarrassment but will we allow them to reflect on all Black people
This shows a very infantile way of thinking and really shows double standards.
Simply reversing your double standards:
Blacks in the new world are admittedly an embarrassment, But will we allow them to reflect on all Black people?Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Clyde "I'm not really a professor, I just play one on the web", what is the purpose of your post if you are not going to do anything? All you did is chase down another anti-african story from a white boy.
Is this why you are so obsessed with chasing down those mythical "black Bulgarians" or those "black Norweigens" or those "black Mongolians"? Powder has you reading every negative thing about Africa and now you pathetically look for anything "black" outside of Africa because of your sad, sorry inferiority complex to the white man.
You're pathetic.
Why don't you do something with your worthless sorry ass and do something good for Africa, instead of repeating after Frosty as if you were his trained dog. Maybe that is the reason why you sport that dog collar at the nightclubs.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: Sub-Saharan's are admittedly an embarrassment, as are some of their off-spring in the new world: But will we allow them to reflect on all Black people? Obviously many of you have not been reading the threads on this board.
Lookee here another pathetic beatdown African American.
Notice folks, how all it takes is for the white man to say something negative about Africa and like trained seals these beatdown, braindead individuals mindlessly follow suit and attack their own.
Mike111 do you and Clyde were matching dog collars?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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I mean all kinds of weird things happen and many people hold weird beliefs.
Ther was the recent case of an Austrian man keeping his daughter captive in a hidden room for 24 years. The man now blames his behaviour on the Nazis. The same kind of "father kidnapping daughter and locking her away for incestuous deeds" was also recently reported in Argentina. And in the U.S. there have also been cases of men of European extraction locking away young girls in secret rooms--just to work off their fantastic perversions. And serial killing and its often bizzare accompanyings.
And all those pedophile rings in Europe and the U.S.? And that German man named Armin Miewes--and his penchant for fried and sauteed male human sex organs.
Do I generalise about "men of European extraction" based on these happenings? No!
I see albinos all the time. And nobody ever harms them. In fact, people have affection for them knowing that the sun affects them and that their eyesight is not too good.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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All of these AAs on this forum, if you are so concerned why don't you do something.
I'll even give you a free idea.
Why don't you use AAs and their story and attempt to show the Tanzanians what unity and cooperation can accomplish.
Get African Americans that look like Moroccans, Malians, Algerians, Nigerians, Nigeriens, Sudanese, Ghanians, Somalis, South Africans, Ethiopians, Kenyans, Egyptians, Ivory Costans, Burkino Fasans, Eritreans, Senegalese, Zimbabweans, Libyans, Ugandans and the other countries of Africa.
There are African Americans that reflect every skin shade including Albinos. There are African Americans that reflect the different peoples of the diverse continent of Africa.
African Americans are the products of the continent of Africa from North, South, East, West, and Central.
You can put together this group of AAs that includes albinos and go over to Tanzania and inform them of the accomplishments of African Americans to show what working together can achieve.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Sub-Saharan's are admittedly an embarrassment but will we allow them to reflect on all Black people
This shows a very infantile way of thinking and really shows double standards.
Simply reversing your double standards:
Blacks in the new world are admittedly an embarrassment, But will we allow them to reflect on all Black people?
In some cases that is true: as far as I know, African boys don't walk around with their pants below their asses.
However; the historical data clearly indicates that Blacks have done better AFTER leaving sub-Sahara Africa.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Clyde "I'm not really a professor, I just play one on the web", what is the purpose of your post if you are not going to do anything? All you did is chase down another anti-african story from a white boy.
Is this why you are so obsessed with chasing down those mythical "black Bulgarians" or those "black Norweigens" or those "black Mongolians"? Powder has you reading every negative thing about Africa and now you pathetically look for anything "black" outside of Africa because of your sad, sorry inferiority complex to the white man.
You're pathetic.
Why don't you do something with your worthless sorry ass and do something good for Africa, instead of repeating after Frosty as if you were his trained dog. Maybe that is the reason why you sport that dog collar at the nightclubs.
Hey Bro...You must be talking about your Whore Mama. Get her off the street and she can stop whoring around to support you and your dead-beat Dad.
quote:However; the historical data clearly indicates that Blacks have done better AFTER leaving sub-Sahara Africa.
Mike111,
Comparisons of black ethnic groups, etc. don't make much sense given that historical circumstances differ.
More crucially, there's always the issue of costs and benefits. The fact that only 10% of those caught up in the vile trans-Atlantic racket--not to mention the wickedness that followed--survived means that the costs are too great to contemplate. No amount of "achievements" afterwards could ever compensate for the massive crimes involved. Such "achievements" will always be tainted and would also mock the dead.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mike111, are you trying to say Africa was primitive/backward? Most people all over the world including Europe were subsistence farmers and herders and that is still true for most of the world today
Just about all the African leaders tried to stop or restrain the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Those who were willing to supply the massive amount of slaves broke away and formed their own empires and prospered, that also had allot to do with Europeans taking over trade routes which put allot of pressure on empires that relied on trade monopolies. It was because of European guns they acquired that many leaders decided they weren't subject to the system of checks and balances that kept potential despots from doing whatever they wanted
"They seize numbers of our free or freed black subjects, and even nobles, sons of nobles, even the members of our own family." -King Alfonso of Congo
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Lamin/markellion - I was not thinking of anything so recent as the slave trade. I meant it in terms of total history. This anomaly has always mystified me, but apparently only me: because to date, nobody has studied it. But isn’t it strange that the source of all things material should remain so far behind, even as it’s offspring’s (of any color) forge ahead. The same goes for intellectual development; how strange that Africans should remain mired in superstition, or suffer the pains of assimilating Islam, Christianity etc. when its offspring’s are the creators of these things. Shouldn’t the source of these things have gone ahead? As the albino story illustrates, many Africans are in a very primitive intellectual condition, (just like the guys with their pants below their asses): wouldn’t you logically expect the complete opposite from the oldest Humans? The list is endless, but the cause is elusive.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Lamin/markellion - I was not thinking of anything so recent as the slave trade. I meant it in terms of total history. This anomaly has always mystified me, but apparently only me: because to date, nobody has studied it. But isn’t it strange that the source of all things material should remain so far behind, even as it’s offspring’s (of any color) forge ahead. The same goes for intellectual development; how strange that Africans should remain mired in superstition, or suffer the pains of assimilating Islam, Christianity etc. when its offspring’s are the creators of these things. Shouldn’t the source of these things have gone ahead? As the albino story illustrates, many Africans are in a very primitive intellectual condition, (just like the guys with their pants below their asses): wouldn’t you logically expect the complete opposite from the oldest Humans? The list is endless, but the cause is elusive.
As you know there is a natural/unnatural cycle of things. It's very evident in sports competition. The team that today is low on the table might have been a winning team in the past.
Of course, what you do is go to the drawing board and try to come up with a winning team--new players, new managers, revised playbooks, new stadia, new money, etc.
What is this world all about, but a vicious and murderous struggle to have access to and use the world's finite resources. And peoples and nations are locked in this struggle and use everything from lies,propaganda, murder, self promotion, intimidation, hypocricy, etc. just to get the advantage.
In all of this the more knowledge the better. The problem with blacks is their teams are not unified and there is really no general playbook that members tacitly understand. The reason is that the team managers, owners, coaches, etc. have been bribed to throw the games or they just don't understand how the games are being played. Such managers should be fired but they pay bribe money to the other teams who are strong enough to protect them. And the losing team supporters are perennially confused and puzzled.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:In all of this the more knowledge the better. The problem with blacks is their teams are not unified and there is really no general playbook that members tacitly understand. The reason is that the team managers, owners, coaches, etc. have been bribed to throw the games or they just don't understand how the games are being played. Such managers should be fired but they pay bribe money to the other teams who are strong enough to protect them. And the losing team supporters are perennially confused and puzzled. [/QB]
Old Africa was actually very good at keeping corruption in check
quote:I meant it in terms of total history. This anomaly has always mystified me, but apparently only me: because to date, nobody has studied it. But isn’t it strange that the source of all things material should remain so far behind, even as it’s offspring’s (of any color) forge ahead.
The idea that Africa has been "left behind" for all of history is nothing more than fantasy. If you simply meant Africa has fallen behind in the last few centuries, the answer to that is obvious, just look at what happened to Europe after the fall of the Roman empire.
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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I think people can understand Africa better if they realize African Civilization has been shattered by outsiders and other Africans, if you see something going on now you can't always assume it's always been that way
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Old Africa was actually very good at keeping corruption in check
Corruption is not the main cause of the problems in Africa. It's rather fearful and alienated leaders and weak civil societies. In fact corruption exists in most of the European world--sometimes open, sometimes hidden.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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^^^I wish that I could give this one to you, but the fact is, it isn't true. Of the populated continents; In terms of civilization as defined by art and architecture, sub-Sahara Africa ranks only above Australia. Surpassed even by the small kingdoms of southeast Asia. As far as I know, the only large scale building project in Sub-Sahara Africa was great Zimbabwe in the 1400s, which really isn't very great at all. No point in trying to build up something that didn't exist, better to try and figure out why it didn't exist.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I was just having a discussion with my husband about this the other day. Albinos. I noticed that I see far more here in Egypt than I ever remember seeing back home in America. Is that my imagination or is there something to it? Is there a higher rate of Albino births in this part of the world - any documentation on that? Just curious. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^I wish that I could give this one to you, but the fact is, it isn't true. Of the populated continents; In terms of civilization as defined by art and architecture, sub-Sahara Africa ranks only above Australia. Surpassed even by the small kingdoms of southeast Asia. As far as I know, the only large scale building project in Sub-Sahara Africa was great Zimbabwe in the 1400s, which really isn't very great at all. No point in trying to build up something that didn't exist, better to try and figure out why it didn't exist.
Well in north africa there wasn't much either other than roman remains untill islamic chaliphate, i don't consider Egypt and Sudan North african but Northeast african.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:markolian wrote: Old Africa was actually very good at keeping corruption in check
You are talking as if Africa had a federal government 3000BC.
quote:If you simply meant Africa has fallen behind in the last few centuries, the answer to that is obvious, just look at what happened to Europe after the fall of the Roman empire.
You are talking as if Roman empire was european, it wasn't! It was medditeranian, Syrians, Palestinians, Libyans, tunisians even Southarabians had more affinities culturally and politically than did most europeans above France. Only after the rennaisance did Roman empire suddenly become "European".
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Well in north africa there wasn't much either other than roman remains untill islamic chaliphate
^ How can you say this, NA had Carthage, you must have been thinking of Somalia when you were writing. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Nope wrong again, it was a African in people and culture. Phoenician culture was extension of Egypt, so it's all African. So again, NA had Carthage and you have failed once again to rescue Somalia. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Rescue somalia? I've made it clear already that somalia is historically a insignificant tiny nomadic country, what's their to rescue. When are you gonna rescue west africa and it's "glorius empires" you sugarcane labour?
quote:Nope wrong again, it was a African in people and culture.
No it was phoenician colony, even if it was african it was certainly not african as your bantu type african. Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^I wish that I could give this one to you, but the fact is, it isn't true. Of the populated continents; In terms of civilization as defined by art and architecture, sub-Sahara Africa ranks only above Australia. Surpassed even by the small kingdoms of southeast Asia. As far as I know, the only large scale building project in Sub-Sahara Africa was great Zimbabwe in the 1400s, which really isn't very great at all. No point in trying to build up something that didn't exist, better to try and figure out why it didn't exist.
Western art is heavily influenced by African arts. I really don't understand what people mean when they say Africa was behind, its just silliness.
Just curious, do you consider Nubians to be Caucasian?
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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^^^Yes it is: but where is the wholly African product? If you consider Africa to be on a par with the industrialized world, you may need to see somebody. Caucasians come from the Eurasian Plains.
BTW - speaking the truth as objectively as you can, is not anti-Black. Being in a state of denial, instead of asking the tough questions is. As they say, it is what it is.
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I think distorting history is a useful tool to control people, if you want two groups to fight each other you just have to create a history and feed it to the two groups making them consider each other eternal enemies. You can convince people Africa is a hopeless continent and has been the heart of darkness for all of history so even someone with good intentions thereby create more confusion and ignorance.
quote:Members of the British punitive expedition in the Benin Palace with the treasury of royal ivory, brass, and other arts which were removed to London. 1897
Different people in Africa had their own style of course and Europeans would label things like African abstract art as primitive, despite the influence this art has on modern art. We do know early Europeans were impressed by the cities they came to like Benin, and liked to compare them to those in Europe. Just because the old city isn't preserved doesn't diminish what the people of Benin and other places in Africa accomplished.
These were complex societies and don't have to be compared to other Civilizations, Africans were traveling all over the world and trading as far away as India and maybe even America centuries before Mohammad was even born. The king of ancient Ghana was said to be the richest man on the face of the Earth, and this wasn't possible if it weren't for good policies in controlling things like inflation and taxation, encouraging entrepreneurship. Arabs traveled hundreds of miles to Timbuktu to learn under black professors
quote: STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE IDEALS OF DEMOCRACY, RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE RULE OF LAW
From the day Botswana was born as a nation in 1966, its people have struggled hard to preserve their democratic way of life, and at the same time take advantage of their rich cultural diversity. These values were not imported, and they certainly were not imposed from outside. In other words, participatory democracy did not come with the advent of independence. It had always been part of our culture. Our traditional Kgotla system of democracy provided a forum at which all stakeholders could sit together, consult and map out strategies for community development. What happened at independence was simply the advancement of the traditional Kgotla system to a higher level of parliamentary democracy.
The stability and social harmony that Botswana has been so blessed to enjoy over the past thirty-seven (37) years of independence is inherent in our culture of peace and tolerance. Batswana, from time immemorial have revered the saying that "it is better to jaw jaw than to war war". This has enabled us to focus our efforts on what binds us together and not what divides us.
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markellion - I didn't say that sub-Saharan's didn't do anything. I said that Blacks did better AFTER leaving the sub-Sahara. Here are examples of what Blacks built at about the same time in history.
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You have brought up an important reality about African civilizations in the diaspora. It appears that traditional society limits the ability of African people to show there creativity in a material fashion, due to the influence of elites mantaining the status quo.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: markellion - I didn't say that sub-Saharan's didn't do anything. I said that Blacks did better AFTER leaving the sub-Sahara. Here are examples of what Blacks built at about the same time in history.
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First, why the colonial talk about "sub-Saharan Africa"?
And in Africa there are the architectures of Sudan, Northern Nigeria, Mali, Axum, Swahili coast, stone ruins other than Zimbabwe in South Africa. I also recall noting the large stone structures found in Nigeria some years ago.
Furthermore, the architectures of South East Asia derive from cultural diffusionism. Note that the narrow North South range of East Asia helps in this regard. Africa's geography is spread at great distances both longitudinally and latitudinally.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: markellion - I didn't say that sub-Saharan's didn't do anything. I said that Blacks did better AFTER leaving the sub-Sahara. Here are examples of what Blacks built at about the same time in history.
Great Zimbabwe
LOL, man, I worry sometimes about the state of the Black psyche, where some are so utterly ashamed that they feel a need to project some sort of affinity with people from Australia to Cambodia as being somehow, "Black". That's why you completely disregard your shame for Africa and just claim that your ancestors come from some mystical Atlantean society full of classical Ethiopians who built flying machines and magic rods. The truth is:
Ibn Battuta (14th century Moraccan scholar), also visited inner Africa and noted that some (notably in Kenya) countries below the Sahara seemed to posses architecture at a standard greater than most he'd seen.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^I wish that I could give this one to you, but the fact is, it isn't true. Of the populated continents; In terms of civilization as defined by art and architecture, sub-Sahara Africa ranks only above Australia. Surpassed even by the small kingdoms of southeast Asia. As far as I know, the only large scale building project in Sub-Sahara Africa was great Zimbabwe in the 1400s, which really isn't very great at all. No point in trying to build up something that didn't exist, better to try and figure out why it didn't exist.
Wow.. Well, it seems to me that your ranking system is fundamentally flawed in a variety of ways, especially on chronology. It isn't enough that you generalize an entire landmass as categorically belonging to the same cultural framework, but you take for granted their stagnation in history. lol.. It's funny because it's just silly.
What society in Southeast Asia and Europe during the same time period "ranked" higher than cultural complexes in Ethiopia around 100 B.C., which established Dm't and subsequently lead to Askum? What societies in south east Asia and Europe around the same time period, "ranked" higher than the steel producing societies in Tanzania about 2,000 years ago, or the artists and Iron smelting people at Nok. Who "ranked" above the city dwelling Soninke of Tichit-Walata who later established the rich and powerful empire of Ghana. Who in southeast Asia and Europe matched the size and influence of the extremely literate kingdoms of Mali with its gold and salt economy, Sudano-Sahelian architecture, noble kings, peace, civility, law and order and size that was at least as large as western Europe? What European or Southeast Asian society "ranked" higher than the Songhai who established an even bigger empire, more intense literacy program, as well as additional jails and libraries and impressive standing army/calvary. Please elaborate instead of feeling so sorry for yourself and giving up on learning.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sundiata - The ancient people of Southeast Asia were not "somehow" Black, they were just Black. The rest of your statements demonstrate an ignorance of history.
Clyde - If Sundiata's reaction is typical, then that suggests that you might be on to something.
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^^Your generalized statement refutes nothing Mike, and I never denied that there are Black SE Asians, only that these so-called "Blacks" are the only contributors to civilization there, or that they're the people who inhabited Angkor Wat, etc. Or that these so-called "Blacks" developed a civilization higher than what can clearly be seen among traditional African societies, kingdoms, and empires, some of which I named.. Please feel free to point out any historical inaccuracy mike, but don't just make blank statements. You bring up Clyde, well at least Clyde goes by his own agenda and research (even if I disagree). You don't. You've yet to demonstrate a basic understanding of the subject, hence your lazy reply.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:What societies in south east Asia and Europe around the same time period, "ranked" higher than the steel producing societies in Tanzania about 2,000 years ago
I'd just like to add (because Mike wants to trivialize everything that is African) that whats amazing about Carbon Steel in Tanzania is that it was done more economically and at temperatures much higher than Europeans could reach until the 19th century. Even then, Arabs still preferred African carbon steel in the early 19th century, it's a classic case of inferior quality mass produced goods versus hand crafted items.
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