posted
According to the most recent genetic research, haplogroup E1b1b1a evolved in NE Africa ~ 20,000 years ago. Based upon this knowledge, what did the population who originally carried this lineage look like?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Genotype equals phenotype Right. HaploGroups DO NOT equal phenotpye. Right.
20,000ya. All Africans. Right? NO modern Europeans until about 6000bc. NO Asians until about the same period when they repleced the negritos in Asia.
Boys keep up!!!!!! Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I believe we've been through this numerous times over the years. Want to get an idea of phenotypic tendencies that the original E-M78 carrying populations would have hosted — since they would have been in an environment that doesn't warrant extreme morphological adaptations from their ancestors' state — then look to E-M35* carriers in sub-Saharan Africa. E-M35 is the parent of E-M78. Furthermore, as far as indicators go, the "tropical" body proportions characterizing test skeletons of Dynastic specimens, should serve as an imprint of what their ancestors looked like.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: I believe we've been through this numerous times over the years.
Evergreen Writes:
As you should know, we have been through all of this many times over the years. The point is educating those who don't know.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Agreed. they should know better . Notice the Leucoderm uses the word "probably". What do you think? Is he unsure of himself? Or is that hesitation . . . .disbelief . How long has he been here???
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Wow....everyone feel that (?).....the forums collective IQ took a massive nose dive, as soon as zzzz-man posted.
Coincidence? I think not.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ I see Xyz is just upset over his humiliation in Marc's thread, but no matter.
As to the topic question posed by Evergreen, to answer you question as to how exactly the carriers of that original haplogroup looked, all one needs to do is look at any surviving human remains of that region during that time period.
As such, does anyone have such studies??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Ha Ha Ha. This guy is such an A@@. Fool you want another lesson in reading and undersatnding?? Did you understand the question?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I see Xyz is just upset over his humiliation in Marc's thread, but no matter.
As to the topic question posed by Evergreen, to answer you question as to how exactly the carriers of that original haplogroup looked, all one needs to do is look at any surviving human remains of that region during that time period.
As such, does anyone have such studies??
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Speaking of humiliation I am not the one who got his ass kicked in the Asian Not Black Thread.
BTW- this is not my life. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The interesting thing is the Wadi Halfa sample is a part of the Kom Ombo Basin cultures, within whom the oldest E1b1 sub-clade E1b1b1a1 (V12) derived in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan. Joel D. Irish also notes dental affinities between this group and modern West Africans.
Is it possible that the more elongated features of recent Horn of Africa populations derived during the mid-early holocene due to aridity from a broader morphological complex? Is it possible that groups such as Greeks and Natufians obtain phenotypic characteristics from these so-called "Negroid" groups that originally carried the E3b lineage along the Nile?
Interestingly enough, Lake Victoria - the base of the Nile's longest branch, the White Nile - is bordered by Kenya on the East side, and is primarily located in Southern Uganda and Northern Tanzania, and is East of Congo (DRC).
"Wadi Halfa differed at a high level of significance in more of the comparisons than any other. There were only two groups from which it could not be convincingly excluded the recent Nubians and *the roster* of sub-Saharan Africans." - Brace et al 1993 (.pdf)
"the roster" of sub-Saharan Africans were a relatively small sample from distant places like Zanzibar, Dahomey, Gabon and Tanzania. Though Brace was aware they were in sub-Saharan Africa, Somalis were not included in the roster of sub-Saharan Africans.
That tells you that
people from places intermediate to Somalia and West sub-Saharan Africa (the Sahel) weren't sampled. I think Brace had a few things in mind one of which was showing that different environments and proximity yield different morphological traits above all.
West Africans clustering with a Nile Valley group more than adjacent samples is significant.
Since we know from the data Ancient Egyptians (from Upper Egypt to Lower Egypt) had tropical body plans that distinguish them from their Levantine neighbors and Europeans and groups them with tropical Africa as proposed in Robins 1986, (and later confirmed by Zakrzewski and others) Brace's comments here should shed a little more light:
quote:"The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature- namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “super- Carpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.” Nasal bridge elevation and elongation is also a trait influenced by the forces of selection. These are related to the relative lack of moisture in inspired air (Glanville, 1969). That in turn is only very tenuously determined by the intensity of solar radiation. Air in tropical deserts, of course, is obviously arid, but cold air in the less insolated parts of the world also has a notably reduced moisture carrying capacity, and one would expect to find a discernible development of the anatomical features associated with the moistening of inspired air in those people whose ancestors were long-time residents in the colder parts of the world. This is indeed the case as is shown by the examples of the members of the European and Amerind clusters (Brace and Hunt, 1990). We would not expect this kind of adaptation to be selected for in the moist tropics such as West Africa and the Congo basin, and there, as anticipated, we can note the absence of nasal elevation and elongation. The East Horn of Africa, however, is another situation entirely. Like much of the Arabian peninsula and the Sahara itself, it is very dry. Solar radiation is intense, and we would expect to find an increased amount of melanin in the skin of the long-term residents of the equatorial portion of that area. We would also expect them to display a degree of nasal elevation and elongation unlike that of the long-term residents at the same latitude but in the moist tropics to the west. This in fact is the case, as we can demonstrate with our own measurements."
- Brace 1993
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Wow....everyone feel that (?).....the forums collective IQ took a massive nose dive, as soon as zzzz-man posted.
Coincidence? I think not.
YES - perhaps Hori was Right, since it happens every time (literally) it might not be coincidence (as I previously thought it to be).
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:"The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature- namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986)
Brace is right, with the above, but he's not being forthright.
The relevance of the tropical adaptations of Ancient Egyptians is of course that it demonstrates that the AE are biologically tropical -like Africans- and unlike West Eurasians.
He is completely correct that the concept of negroid and caucasoid are, ultimately moot.
Likewise, the race constructs of veddoid or australoid are irrelvant, not only because no such 'races' exist, but also because we know that the AE do not come from India or Australia.
But the question of whether Kemetians originate in tropical AFrica or 'West Eurasia' is at the heart of the discussion.
Tropical adaptation is powerful evidence that they come from Africa.
And as Brace notes: it is evidence that correlates well with dark skin color.
Brace: "Africa of course entails black, though black does not entail African".
^ It's too bad that many who read the above do not understand what is being said.
If we are not distracted by racial terms, we realise that Brace is acknowledging that AE were Black and African - a fact he distracts us from, but does not materially dispute.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:"The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature- namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986)
Brace is right, with the above, but he's not being forthright.
The relevance of the tropical adaptations of Ancient Egyptians is of course that it demonstrates that the AE are biologically tropical -like Africans- and unlike West Eurasians.
He is completely correct that the concept of negroid and caucasoid are, ultimately moot.
Likewise, the race constructs of veddoid or australoid are irrelvant, not only because no such 'races' exist, but also because we know that the AE do not come from India or Australia.
But the question of whether Kemetians originate in tropical AFrica or 'West Eurasia' is at the heart of the discussion.
Tropical adaptation is powerful evidence that they come from Africa.
And as Brace notes: it is evidence that correlates well with dark skin color.
Brace: "Africa of course entails black, though black does not entail African".
^ It's too bad that many who read the above do not understand what is being said.
If we are not distracted by racial terms, we realise that Brace is acknowledging that AE were Black and African - a fact he distracts us from, but does not materially dispute.
Indeed, that's why we have to understand all around areas in relevance to this subject (which we do) so when Brace makes statements like this we can notice the admission, albeit being admitted indirectly. Also, all studies in which prove Ancient Egyptians to be totally indigenous in origin, only enhances this fact. Arabs and Europeans are not Indigenous Africans or tropically adapted. This is what people have to understand.
When debunked tries to dismiss tropical adaptation erroneously as as being a generalized morphology, but he gets a slaps him in the face when Ancient Egyptians being tropically adapted is something that can't be falsely classify as generalized, at 5000 B.C.E. No wonder debunked doesn't argue for a "white" Egypt. Instead his last resort is erroneously trying to defend Europe's so called "whiteness" The perseverance is admirable, but his idiocy is sad.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
It's also important to bear in mind Brace's claims for European skull = Neanderthal skull, and not African skull.
It shows you what's wrong with over-reaching craniometry when used in ivory tower isolation from other disciplines.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Have to admit did one or two Jamaican in college. . But didn't inhale.
But looks like DJ is still doing it since he cannot undestand a simple question. And hey. . .I am not the one asking stupid questions. If people living in Europe 10,000ya looked like Black Africans what do you expect E and it derivatives to look like. "probably" Black African??? Right TRex.
quote:Originally posted by Hri:
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Wow....everyone feel that (?).....the forums collective IQ took a massive nose dive, as soon as zzzz-man posted.
Coincidence? I think not.
YES - perhaps Hori was Right, since it happens every time (literally) it might not be coincidence (as I previously thought it to be).
He's a crystal-meth addict that's why. With insecurities about albinism . He's best ignored..
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
You know come to think of it. This makes more and more sense.
Most lineages are/were Black African phenotypically around mesolitic and before. It is only later on as the Africans moved further north that they changed. This will explain the J-black Lemba's and J white Askhnazis. And the E3b White Europeans and E3b black East Africans.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
XI is E-M78, correct? There's no proof of a East African migration into the Western Sahel.
Though I'm not doubting this, I wasn't aware of this either.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
^^ Will have to look at the study you reference but Keita notes that labeling Haplotype XI as "Oriental" is misleading. It has its highest frequencies in the Horn and the Nile Valley, so he questions why other scholars keep calling in "Oriental" or using such terms as "Middle Eastern." This he holds is "the ongoing tendency in some disciplines to label the Nile valley as Middle Eastern, in a fashion that effectively suggests that Egypt has no African context, and that also hides its biocultural Africanity in pre-Islamic times."[88]
S.O.Y. Keita, A. J. Boyce, "Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1," History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246
Chromosonial variants that have a bearing on the Nile Valley include Haplotype IV, which is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo, and to some extent among the Nubians. Another variant, Haplotype XI has its highest frequencies in the Horn and the Nile valley, but has been misleadingly called "Oriental". The haplotypes VII and VIII are the major indigenous Near Eastern haplotypes, found especially in Near Eastern Arabic speakers and Jews. In comparison to those of V their frequencies are small in supra-Saharan Africa.[89]
Haplotype V has also seen the use of misleading terms like "Arabic" to describe it, implying it is of 'Middle Eastern' origins.[90] When the hapotype V variant is looked at in context however, very high prevalences occur in African countries above the Sahara and Ethiopia, with heavy concentrations found among Berbers and Falashas (black Jews of Ethiopia). The weight of this distribution in Africa, rather than Arabia, has led researchers like Lucotte 1993, 1996 et. al.) to call the gene variant "African" or "Berber." As regards the Ethiopian Falahas, (the 'black' Jews), they have a very high frequency of haplotypes V and XI, with none or little of VII and VIII (often associated with movements of Arabic and Turkic peoples into Egypt) which shows them to be "clearly of African origin" per Lucotte and Mercier, 2003. As a result of this data, some DNA researchers hold that it is more accurate to call hapotype V "Horn-supra-Saharan African" rather than "Arabic" and to recognize it as indigeous to Africa rather than labeling it as "Middle Eastern" or "Oriental."[91] Overall the Nile Valley peoples show a diversity of chromosonal patterns throughout their long history.[92] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On migration to the Sahel, maybe it does not have to be East Africans per se at all, although ultimately much population distribution worldwide can be traced back to East Africa. The indigenous Saharan peoples carried more than enough genetic diversity to influence the Sahel and other West African regions. Indeed, the Sahara one extended across one-third of Africa. This inheritance, the Saharan inheritance, thus criss-crosses areas from West Africa, to East, to North Africa and of course, the Nile Valley, where of course the Saharans were in place to start the Dynastic civilization. As regards West Africa of course, the Saharan inheritance is also reflected from early times, culminating in the great Saharan-based or associated kingdoms we all know so well.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
originally posted by rasol (but I haven't found the study mentioned yet):
quote: Gm allotypes & immunoglobulin heavy gamma IGHG genes in Berbers, Arabs & Africans - Jerba Island, Tunisia
The Gm polymorphism was investigated in three different ethnic groups -- Arabs, Berbers and 'dark-skinned people'--on Jerba Island, Tunisia.
The genetic relationships among these groups and several populations from North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, west Asia and Europe were analysed by principal coordinate analysis, Fst significance testing, and analysis of molecular variance based on haplotype frequencies.
The results revealed a non-significant genetic differentiation between Arabs and Berbers from Jerba.
However, the Jerbian population of sub-Saharan African origin was close to Ethiopians.
Gene flow among the three Jerbian populations, as well as an East African origin of the dark-skinned individuals, is proposed to account for the observed genetic pattern.
I would love to see studies on either E1b1 M78 OR M81.
To me, that these guys are descended from ancestral sub-Saharan East Africans like everyone else in the region and especially the Berber (below) gives us insight about how North Africans originally looked.
Thought posted:
quote: Cherni L, Loueslati BY, Pereira L, Ennafaa H, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB. Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa.
Hum Biol. 2005 Feb;77(1):61-70.
Laboratory of Molecular Genetics, Immunology, and Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences of Tunis, University of Tunis, El Manar II 1060, Tunisia.
Microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin for E3b1" - - Semino
Since the E3b lineages appear to be confined mostly to the Sub-Saharan populations, initial migrations toward North Africa FROM THE SOUTH primarily involved derivative E3b lineages. These include E3b1-M78 - Luis
Not to long ago in this (AE /f=15) section of the forum there was an article posted about some coastal North Africans who singled out Kush as their (whatever group they were) brother.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Lucotte and Mercier do not relate TaqI ht's to the standard nomenclatures, Keita relied on al~Zahery (and Semino) for those associations.
quote:Although unfortunately not assessed by Lucotte and Mercier (2003a), biallelic markers define clades (Hammer and Zegura, 2002) that can be associated with the TaqI p49a, f variants (e.g., al-Zahery et al., 2003; Semino, personal communication).
S.O.Y. Keita History in the Interpretation of the Pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y-Chromosome Variation in Egypt: A Consideration of Multiple Lines of Evidence p.562a
Referencing al~Zahery for ht 11's definitive bands (A3,C0,D0,F1,I1) besides its E-M35 association it also affiliates with R-M17.
In Africa, the particular E-M35 subclade that may go along with ht 11 could be deduced from the regional population of its highest frequencies in Keita's tables correlated to equivalent frequencies of the same regional populations in reports that use the "standard" nomenclature.
"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
XI is E-M78, correct? There's no proof of a East African migration into the Western Sahel.
Though I'm not doubting this, I wasn't aware of this either.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Couscous sellers from Tunisia:
I would love to see studies on either E1b1 M78 OR M81.
To me, that these guys are descended from ancestral sub-Saharan East Africans like everyone else in the region and especially the Berber (below) gives us insight about how North Africans originally looked.
Thought posted:
quote: Cherni L, Loueslati BY, Pereira L, Ennafaa H, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB. Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa.
Hum Biol. 2005 Feb;77(1):61-70.
Laboratory of Molecular Genetics, Immunology, and Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences of Tunis, University of Tunis, El Manar II 1060, Tunisia.
Microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin for E3b1" - - Semino
Since the E3b lineages appear to be confined mostly to the Sub-Saharan populations, initial migrations toward North Africa FROM THE SOUTH primarily involved derivative E3b lineages. These include E3b1-M78 - Luis
Not to long ago in this (AE /f=15) section of the forum there was an article posted about some coastal North Africans who singled out Kush as their (whatever group they were) brother.
North African DNA is patchy because of the patchy population history in North Africa. This means that various groups have interacted in various parts of North Africa in various ways over time producing what you see today. Therefore it is impossible to generalize the phenotype or genotype of all North African populations.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Lucotte and Mercier do not relate TaqI ht's to the standard nomenclatures, Keita relied on al~Zahery (and Semino) for those associations.
quote:Although unfortunately not assessed by Lucotte and Mercier (2003a), biallelic markers define clades (Hammer and Zegura, 2002) that can be associated with the TaqI p49a, f variants (e.g., al-Zahery et al., 2003; Semino, personal communication).
S.O.Y. Keita History in the Interpretation of the Pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y-Chromosome Variation in Egypt: A Consideration of Multiple Lines of Evidence p.562a
Referencing al~Zahery for ht 11's definitive bands (A3,C0,D0,F1,I1) besides its E-M35 association it also affiliates with R-M17.
In Africa, the particular E-M35 subclade that may go along with ht 11 could be deduced from the regional population of its highest frequencies in Keita's tables correlated to equivalent frequencies of the same regional populations in reports that use the "standard" nomenclature.
True, and the use of terminology like "Oriental" by some scholars obscures understanding of the complex pattern you note above.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Well considering that North East Africa is a hotbed of various features from "Indian" looking Africans to "Dark Whites" to elongated Saharan, to "fine" featured blacks, to the Sudanic types and the Bedja Nomadic types and so forth it is hard to pinpoint or correlate phenotype and genotype. It is impossible.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
My apologies for not making a comprehensive post on haplotype XI that rightfully should include all the populations in Africa where it is found. For example, its 30.4% occurence rate in Lower Nubia and rate of 26.1% in Ethiopia is significant.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Lucotte and Mercier do not relate TaqI ht's to the standard nomenclatures, Keita relied on al~Zahery (and Semino) for those associations.
quote:Although unfortunately not assessed by Lucotte and Mercier (2003a), biallelic markers define clades (Hammer and Zegura, 2002) that can be associated with the TaqI p49a, f variants (e.g., al-Zahery et al., 2003; Semino, personal communication).
S.O.Y. Keita History in the Interpretation of the Pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y-Chromosome Variation in Egypt: A Consideration of Multiple Lines of Evidence p.562a
Referencing al~Zahery for ht 11's definitive bands (A3,C0,D0,F1,I1) besides its E-M35 association it also affiliates with R-M17.
In Africa, the particular E-M35 subclade that may go along with ht 11 could be deduced from the regional population of its highest frequencies in Keita's tables correlated to equivalent frequencies of the same regional populations in reports that use the "standard" nomenclature.
True, and the use of terminology like "Oriental" by some scholars obscures understanding of the complex pattern you note above.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Lucotte and Mercier do not relate TaqI ht's to the standard nomenclatures, Keita relied on al~Zahery (and Semino) for those associations.
quote:Although unfortunately not assessed by Lucotte and Mercier (2003a), biallelic markers define clades (Hammer and Zegura, 2002) that can be associated with the TaqI p49a, f variants (e.g., al-Zahery et al., 2003; Semino, personal communication).
S.O.Y. Keita History in the Interpretation of the Pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y-Chromosome Variation in Egypt: A Consideration of Multiple Lines of Evidence p.562a
Referencing al~Zahery for ht 11's definitive bands (A3,C0,D0,F1,I1) besides its E-M35 association it also affiliates with R-M17.
In Africa, the particular E-M35 subclade that may go along with ht 11 could be deduced from the regional population of its highest frequencies in Keita's tables correlated to equivalent frequencies of the same regional populations in reports that use the "standard" nomenclature.
Nice. Since E M*78 descends from E1b1b1 which in turn descends from E M*35, they still all mark migrations of E. Africans.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well considering that North East Africa is a hotbed of various features from "Indian" looking Africans to "Dark Whites" to elongated Saharan, to "fine" featured blacks, to the Sudanic types and the Bedja Nomadic types and so forth it is hard to pinpoint or correlate phenotype and genotype. It is impossible.
LOLOL uh oh I know Argyle is coming with this one he he he.
What pray tell is an "Indian looking African" and how "fine" are these "certain" black people??
I mean if all humans come from Africa, how can an indigenous African look like a NON-AFRICAN Doug?
I'll let Argyle eat you up on this one though I know it's going to be brutal lolol. I just like to Watch Posts: 152 | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
You are right. Non Africans look like Africans, not vise versa. I never said anything otherwise.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: I believe we've been through this numerous times over the years. Want to get an idea of phenotypic tendencies that the original E-M78 carrying populations would have hosted — since they would have been in an environment that doesn't warrant extreme morphological adaptations from their ancestors' state — then look to E-M35* carriers in sub-Saharan Africa. E-M35 is the parent of E-M78. Furthermore, as far as indicators go, the "tropical" body proportions characterizing test skeletons of Dynastic specimens, should serve as an imprint of what their ancestors looked like.
^^Indeed.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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