"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
XI is E-M78, correct? There's no proof of a East African migration into the Western Sahel.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
It is not suprising that this haplotype would be found among the Malinke-Bambara people. It was, after all the Malinke-Bambara (Mande) who spread civilization from Iran to China 4000-3500 years ago. It was these people who founded the first Chinese Empire: Xia.
posted
Clyde, Haplotype XI didn't originate in Malinke-Bambara people, who have higher frequncies of Haplotype IV. Chinese don't have XI nor do they IV haplotypes.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by X-Ras: Clyde, Haplotype XI didn't originate in Malinke-Bambara people, who have higher frequncies of Haplotype IV. Chinese don't have XI nor do they IV haplotypes.
Hi isn't this haplotype XI found in Eurasia, especially central Asia? If it is found in Eurasia, it could be a remnant of the malinke-Bambara people who formerly occupied the region.
Secondly, I would not expect this haplotype to be found among the Chinese, they usually murdered as many Qiang and li(Malinke-Bambara speaking people) and Yueh (Dravidian speaking people) as they could. I would expect to see this haplotype among the Chinese minorities in the West and Southwest rather than the Chinese proper.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: There have been other studies that have found E3b in West Africans, so I don't know how surprising this is.
I would like to see Haplotype designations normalised though, to end some of the growing confusion.
E3b*, M81 and M78 was found in Senegal and Mali, but XI really is E3b1-M78 there has to be an explanation for its appearance in West Africa.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
It is not suprising that this haplotype would be found among the Malinke-Bambara people. It was, after all the Malinke-Bambara (Mande) who spread civilization from Iran to China 4000-3500 years ago. It was these people who founded the first Chinese Empire: Xia.
.
LOL the thing I kind of like about you Clyde is that you just DONT QUIT do you lol!!!!
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by X-Ras:
"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
Now how can this be?
It is not suprising that this haplotype would be found among the Malinke-Bambara people. It was, after all the Malinke-Bambara (Mande) who spread civilization from Iran to China 4000-3500 years ago. It was these people who founded the first Chinese Empire: Xia.
.
LOL the thing I kind of like about you Clyde is that you just DONT QUIT do you lol!!!!
Hi
It has nothing to do with not quiting. It is all about hypothesis building.
A good hypothesis will lead to new hypotheses founded on the original hypothesis. It has long been recognized as early as Rawlinson, that Asia was settled by Kushites. The Kushites are related to the C-Group people of Nubia. The C-Group people are characterized by selected archaeological, anthropological and cultural traits,e.g., worship of the god Amma (>Amon, Aman etc.) , syllabic writing system, agro-pastoral civilization, and red-and-black pottery. The malinke-Bambara speakers took this civilization to Iran, and spread it to China, where we see the same syllabic writing, genetically related words in archaic Chinese and Mande group, and etc.
The Elamites, original Chinese Dynasts (Xia Dynasty= li min and Qiang) spoke languages genetically related to Malinke -Bambara. As a result, it can be hypothesized that some people in Eurasia, will carry genes that support the former presence of Malinke-Bambara people in the area.
As a result, it is only a matter of time that genetic evidence will be published supporting this reality.
This is supported by the fact that people on this forum said that the M1 haplogroup was not related to Indian haplogroups, yet I found a 1999 article by Kivisild that indicated that it did in fact exist in India. This along with the archaeological, craniometric and anthropological evidence confirmed the African origin of the Dravidian speakers.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:This is supported by the fact that people on this forum said that the M1 haplogroup was not related to Indian haplogroups
In fact, this is what Kivisild and Chang say, blaming it on the 'people on this forum' is just a form of denial.
quote: yet I found a 1999 article by Kivisild that indicated that it did in fact exist in India.
And you were shown a 2004 article by Kivisild that explained that it did not.
I can show late 90's work by Hammer that claims that Haplogroup E [Yap, Yap+ and derivitives] originated in Asia. But later work refined our understanding of this lineage to the point that no geneticist still makes this claim.
Likewise, some Indian lineages were mistaken for M1, but on cloer inspection were found to be distinct lineages now labled M2 thru M8 - many of which did not exist in 1999.
For the last time Dr. Winters - you can't keep going back to outdated studies and ignoring the subsequent ones.
When you insist on doing so, you are following a classic pattern of pseudo-science.
Relying on outdated data, never progressing, ignoring current findings that you don't like, etc..
And you we
This along with the archaeological, craniometric and anthropological evidence confirmed the African origin of the Dravidian speakers.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:This is supported by the fact that people on this forum said that the M1 haplogroup was not related to Indian haplogroups
In fact, this is what Kivisild and Chang say, blaming it on the 'people on this forum' is just a form of denial.
quote: yet I found a 1999 article by Kivisild that indicated that it did in fact exist in India.
And you were shown a 2004 article by Kivisild that explained that it did not.
I can show late 90's work by Hammer that claims that Haplogroup E [Yap, Yap+ and derivitives] originated in Asia. But later work refined our understanding of this lineage to the point that no geneticist still makes this claim.
Likewise, some Indian lineages were mistaken for M1, but on cloer inspection were found to be distinct lineages now labled M2 thru M8 - many of which did not exist in 1999.
For the last time Dr. Winters - you can't keep going back to outdated studies and ignoring the subsequent ones.
When you insist on doing so, you are following a classic pattern of pseudo-science.
Relying on outdated data, never progressing, ignoring current findings that you don't like, etc..
And you we
This along with the archaeological, craniometric and anthropological evidence confirmed the African origin of the Dravidian speakers.
Kivisild et al, have never explained adequately what happened to the 26 Indians they described as carriers of M1 in 1999.
posted
^ Weren't you supposed to have written him or something and asked?
Per Chang, no Indian haplogroup matches the detailed definition of M1, rather several different Indian halpogroups have limited similarites with M1 which are do to parrallel mutation and not common ancestry.
I consider this and adequete explanation.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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E3b*, M81 and M78 was found in Senegal and Mali, but XI really is E3b1-M78 there has to be an explanation for its appearance in West Africa.
Actually, that E3b-M78, which now includes the Berber "characteristic" haplotype [formerly known as E-M81] but excluding this haplotype nonetheless, has long been noted in West Africa in coastal Northwest Africa and sub-Saharan west Africa. See for example:
E3b in sub-Saharan West Africa extends as far west as Senegal, a region which has one of the highest frequencies of E3a, but no Bantu speakers. According to Cruciani et al.'s break down of Hg E frequencies:
In that West Africans ultimately come from East Africa, I'm not sure why it has to be all that surprising to come across E-M78 anywhere within the continent. If E-M78 can be found in places "outside" of the continent, then is it not reasonable that it would be present elsewhere in continental Africa, the homeland for E3b?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think Yonis once asked the good question - why did E3b spread from East Africa to North Africa the Levantine and Europe but not to West Africa.
The answer as Supercar has shown is - it did.
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