It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population; the existence of the Haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup F in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia.
The TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for the IJ clade, expressed in ky (confidence interval), is 38.5 (30.5-46.2)[1].
[edit] Subclades
* IJ (M429, P123, P124, P125, P126, P127, P129, P130, S2, S22) per ISOGG 2008 o I (M170, P19, M258, P38, P212, U179) Haplogroup I notation updated to ISOGG 2008 + I* + I1 (M253, M307, M450/S109, P30, P40, S62, S63, S64, S65, S66, S107, S108, S110, S111) (formerly I1a) Typical of populations of Scandinavia and Northwest Europe, with a moderate distribution throughout Eastern Europe # I1* # I1a (M21) (formerly I1a2) # I1b (M227) (formerly I1a1) Appears to be limited to a marginally low frequency of approximately 1% among Slavic and Uralic peoples of Eastern Europe; also detected in a single Lebanese man * I1b1 (M72) (formerly I1a1a) # I1c (P109) # I1d (P259) + I2 (M438/P215/S31) (formerly I1b) # I2* # I2a (P37.2) (formerly I1b1) Typical of the South Slavic peoples of the Balkans, especially the populations of Bosnia and Croatia; also found with high haplotype diversity values, but lower overall frequency, among the West Slavic populations of Slovakia and the Czech Republic; a node of elevated frequency in Moldavia correlates with that observed for Haplogroup I2a (but not for Haplogroup I1) * I2a* * I2a1 (M423) o I2a1* o I2a1a (P41.2/M359.2) (formerly I1b1a) Typical of the population of the so-called "archaic zone" of Sardinia; also found at low frequencies among populations of Southwest Europe, particularly in Castile, Béarn, and the Basque Country * I2a2 (M26) (formerly I1b1b) o I2a2* o I2a2a (M161) (formerly I1b1b1) # I2b (M436/P214/S33, P216/S30, P217/S23, P218/S32) (formerly I1b2) * I2b* * I2b1 (M223, P219/S24, P220/S119, P221/S120, P222/U250/S118, P223/S117) (formerly I1b2a - old I1c) Occurs at a moderate frequency among populations of Northwest Europe, with a peak frequency in the region of Lower Saxony in central Germany; minor offshoots appear in Moldavia and Russia (especially around Vladimir, Ryazan, Nizhny Novgorod, and the Republic of Mordovia) o I2b1* o I2b1a (M284) (formerly I1b2a1) Generally limited to a low frequency in Great Britain o I2b1b (M379) (formerly I1b2a2) o I2b1c (P78) (formerly I1b2a3) o I2b1d (P95) (formerly I1b2a4) o J (12f2.1, M304, S6, S34, S35) + J* + J1 (M267) Typical of populations of Dagestan, Mesopotamia, the Levant, Arabia, and Semitic-speaking populations of North Africa and East Africa, with a moderate distribution throughout Southwest Asia # J1* # J1a (M62) # J1b (M365) # J1c (M367, M368) # J1d (M369) # J1e (M390) + J2 (M172) Typical of populations of Southern Europe, Turkey, northern Iraq, Iran, and the Caucasus, with a moderate distribution throughout Southwest Asia, Central Asia, South Asia, and North Africa # J2* # J2a (M410) * J2a* * J2a1 (DYS413≤18) * J2a2 (M340) # J2b (M12, M314, M221) * J2b* * J2b1 (M102) Mainly found in the Balkans, Greece, and Italy (possibly from Ancient Greeks)
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population
^ Do you know what this means?
But Haplogroup I and J share the same mutations, which give rise to the hypothesis of the existance of Haplogroup IJ, because of both Haplogroups relativeness.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): But if it hasn't been found, how do we know where it originated?
You just reiterate that we know it existed.
Scinstists believe it originated in the Levant and Anatolia, because both Haplogroup I and J can be found there, that is where the hypothesis begin.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Here is something of interest.
Ask questions if you dont' understand....
Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
The creator of this thread suffers from retardation. Jewish is not assigned to a specific haplotype, therefore no haplotype is specifically Jewish.
Judaism is a religion and not a specific group of peoples.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study. Not even sure about the precise microsatellite nature of those chromosomes. Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: The creator of this thread suffers from retardation. Jewish is not assigned to a specific haplotype, therefore no haplotype is specifically Jewish.
Judaism is a religion and not a specific group of peoples.
Yes, to Y haplogroup J and its sub-clades(majority)others are Y Haplogroup E1a2(E3b)
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study. Not even sure about the precise microsatellite nature of those chromosomes. Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes?
????? Can you please explain a bit more clearly?
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study. Not even sure about the precise microsatellite nature of those chromosomes. Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes?
????? Can you please explain a bit more clearly?
It's "jew speak" for "we need to cook up genetic studies to validate our theft of Palestinian land." LOL
quote:The creator of this thread suffers from retardation. Jewish is not assigned to a specific haplotype, therefore no haplotype is specifically Jewish.Judaism is a religion and not a specific group of peoples.
I knew you were dumb but not this dumb. Semites are associated with Y Haplogroup J1 (Eu 10) southern Fertile Cresent (Nebel 2001)... ain't that right Your Cuntness... Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: The creator of this thread suffers from retardation. Jewish is not assigned to a specific haplotype, therefore no haplotype is specifically Jewish.
Judaism is a religion and not a specific group of peoples.
Yes, to Y haplogroup J and its sub-clades(majority)others are Y Haplogroup E1a2(E3b)
Now let's see, Semitic is a branch on a tree associated with the East African Afrasan family group of languages. So basically Semetic is an adoption from Africa, so how would it be only associated with southwest Asians?
There weren't any Semites in the near East until Africans brought it there. So how can Semetic be associated with a middle Eastern haplotype? Are you saying these Africans carried hgJ?
Isn't what you mean is middle eastern Semites are associated with hgJ, not Semites in general, and not specifically Jews or Arabs. The haplogroup involved with Afrasan language families is E3b, and not J.
There are all different kinds of Jews(Russians, Polish, Ethiopian, Lembas, M.E. etc..) since it's a religion and not a haplogroup.
Or is it that you're saying because the Lembas of South Africa carry hgJ and and practice Judaism, that it's associated with Jews??
------
Alternatively, the Afro-Asiatic languages originated in the Upper Nubian Nile Valley (Blench 1993, 134-37 and fig. 2). Another branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family, Semitic, was evidently spoken by Saharans who crossed the Red Sea into Arabia and became ancestors of the Semitic speakers there, possibly around 7000 B.C.E. Of the Nilotic peoples, only the Nubians of later times are distinct, speaking Nilo-Saharan but those presently living in the Nuba Hills are still very close to Nilotic peoples in their cultural traditions." (F. Yurco "An Egyptological Review", 1996)
--------
A Conversation with Christopher Ehret Christopher Ehret, UCLA Interviewed by WHC Co-editor Tom Laichas
WHC: You seem to be suggesting that the Semitic monotheism Jewish, Christian and Islamic monotheism descends from African models. Is that fair?
Ehret: Yeah, actually it is. Look at the first commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." It's not like the Muslim creed, which is "There is no God but God." It's doesn't say "there is no god but Yahweh, and Moses is his prophet." It is an admittance that there are other gods. It is an example of henotheism. And the Hebrew tribes are like the Omati clan groups. The tribes are clans writ larger. Like the Omati clans, they track their ancestry back ten or fifteen generations to a common ancestor. And these common ancestors were twelve brothers. (Actually, there are thirteen. They have to turn two of them, Ephraim and Manasseh, into half tribes, because thirteen wasn't a good number. I always loved that. There are really thirteen tribes, but you have to combine two of them).
The Canaanite cities have an alternative Semitic structure: polytheism. There's Astarte and Baal and the various gods that you'll find in South Arabia. So it looks like in the early Semitic world, you have two coexisting religions. You have polytheism among the ones who are really more urbanized. Then you have henotheistic groups.
What I see here is that earlier Middle Eastern polytheism is influencing Semitic religion. After all, the early Semites were just a few Africans arriving to find a lot of other people already in the area. So they're going to have to accommodate. Some groups, maybe ones who live in peripheries, in areas with lower population densities, may be able to impose the henotheistic religion they arrived with.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study. Not even sure about the precise microsatellite nature of those chromosomes. Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes?
????? Can you please explain a bit more clearly?
What part was not clear to you?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Coon-descended Faggot-Cancer spreader/akoben:
... ain't that right Your Cuntness...
Nope, nothing is right about your mum's Coon-clit, because its where you came from, your Arab jacked Faggot-Cancer spreading Coon-clitness.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East or the Levant thus IJ is the forefather to Haplogroup I and J, because I and J are more related to each other than to the other Y-DNA F descendants(G, H, and K)
I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study. Not even sure about the precise microsatellite nature of those chromosomes. Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes?
????? Can you please explain a bit more clearly?
What part was not clear to you?
about the M89 chromosomes part, are you referring to the Y haplogroups descendded from M89(G,H,I,J and K)?
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: The creator of this thread suffers from retardation. Jewish is not assigned to a specific haplotype, therefore no haplotype is specifically Jewish.
Judaism is a religion and not a specific group of peoples.
Yes, to Y haplogroup J and its sub-clades(majority)others are Y Haplogroup E1a2(E3b)
quote: middle eastern Semites are associated with hgJ, not Semites in general, and not specifically Jews or Arabs. The haplogroup involved with Afrasan language families is E3b, and not J.
Yes, this is what I meant, some Jews are J, others are E3b.The J ones are the descendants of Abraham, the E3b ones are mixed.
quote:There are all different kinds of Jews(Russians, Polish, Ethiopian, Lembas, M.E. etc..) since it's a religion and not a haplogroup.
Or is it that you're saying because the Lembas of South Africa carry hgJ and and practice Judaism, that it's associated with Jews??
A Jew is not a person who practice Judaism,Jew is a person who is born in Judah, an persons who are born in Judah carry either J or E3b.Aperson who practices the religion is a [B]Judaist[/B}
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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Likewise, a son or daughter born of a Christian mother inherits the Christian trait, and thereby becomes a member of the Christian peoples.
A person, a Jew for instance may convert to Christianity and become a part of the Christian peoples, and vice versa.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
No. A Jew reverting to Christianity remains a Jew according to Jewish authorities.
There was a nation Y*hudah/Judah/Judea that was destroyed by Rome who renamed the former Jewish territory Palestine. The citizenry of Y*hudah are called Jews in the English tongue. The citizenry of Y*hudah was composed of members of the 12 Tribes of Israel and any non-Israelites who nationalized.
Sarcasm from Jew haters does not disguise the fact there never was a nation called Christ. Christianity is nothing but a religion not a nationality nor a peoplehood.
A better smartass example would have been Islam, where a Muslim is one whose father is Muslim or one who converts to Islam via Muslim authority. You'd still have no peoplehood because though there is a concept of Dar ul Islam there is no one nation state dubbed Islam.
There are no scientific Judaic, Christian, nor Muslim "traits."
Since Jewish refers to both a people and a religion confusion sets in when considering biology of groups self-identifying as Jews. Some groups have or once had a core of ancient Hebrew ancestors. These would be Israelites. Other groups have no Hebrew core and can only be Jews.
Anyone can become a Jew but only birth through a parent of Hebrew heritage can make one an Israelite. Since the Hebrews spent their earliest history for a little more than 2000 years on the far north east extension of Africa, misnomered southwest Asia, one scientific way to aid in distinguishing Jewish populations of Israelite ancestry is to verify the presence of mtDNA and/or nrY chromosomes indicative of one time far north east African extension provenance or residence.
However, science will not alter Jewish authorities rulings. Per Jewish authority the Beta Israel of modern Ethiopia are of Hebrew descent primarily from the Tribe of Dan. But per current science the Beta Israel lack some markers present in Jewish groups reckoned as of "recent" Levantine origins.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ So, if Christian authorities acknowledge the Christanity of a converting Jew as; Christian: and likewise the Judea authorities still recognize the convert as, Jewish; Is the convert then acknowledged as a recognized member of both the Jewish and Christian peoples? Converting is sort of like a dual citizen passport, but acquired by assimilation, aye.
SO, are you saying Muslims have a genetic profile as well?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study
As usual, Supercar shows a subtle and well researched understanding of genetics.
It is probable that many early derived M-168 male and L3MNx female markers are of African origin.
All non Africans originate in East Africa - and not, "the middle east", and moreover even after the outmigration of the ancestors of non Africans....they would woud, themselves make up less than "1%" of the human populice.
The earliest evidences of non African lineages, or skeletal remains, in fact, do not even show up in the middle east. Rather they appear in Australia, and South Asia.
And this is consistent with the lack of autosomal diversity outside of Africa.
In other words - when you grant apriori "middle eastern" origin to too many lineages, you have to start explaining why non African human populations fail to model as being middle eastern derived.
For example - you can model the Chinese or Indians or South Asians as and offshoot of African lineages, but you *cannot* model them as and offshoot of "middle eastern" lineages.
Specifically Indians have ancient "M" derivities for example which are not found in the middle east - but must lead back to African L3.
^ There is and ongoing history in genetics of a-priori speculation of the 'middle-east' as a source origin for various lineages which are in fact -not found- in the 'middle-east'.
There is a reason for this.
The levant offers the best hope prospect for tracing lineages back to their putative origin.... while stopping short of Africa.
The middle east aids also aids in laundering African influences in Europe.
In fact, the 'middle east' is granted non parsimonious treatment in many matters - birth of writing, of civilisation itself, etc..
No other 'geo-polity' is treated in this way.
"X" is actually not-found in the middle east,
yet...
"X" is claimed to originated in the middle east, anyway.
These claims are repeated ad nauseum until they are 'supposedly' self evident truths, when they are often assumptive, or even utterly illogical.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^^^^Thus...... false classifications are also made about skulls found in north Africa, the near east, and southern Europe, that erroneous label, of course, is Mediterranean. This guise is specifically designed to ignore and downplay the African influence in the so called Mediterranean area. Just as they erroneously assign Semitic solely to Jews, meanwhile the first Semites themselves were just a few Africans arriving to meet people already in the middle east. It's like the son denying his grandfather for his(the grandsons) own existence.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
It always amazes me to see so-called "Africanist" scholars put so much faith in stories about mythic Asiatic "nations" that never were, Asiatic religious authorities and rules laid down by men that never even lived. LOL
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: No. A Jew reverting to Christianity remains a Jew according to Jewish authorities.
There was a nation Y*hudah/Judah/Judea that was destroyed by Rome who renamed the former Jewish territory Palestine. The citizenry of Y*hudah are called Jews in the English tongue. The citizenry of Y*hudah was composed of members of the 12 Tribes of Israel and any non-Israelites who nationalized.
Sarcasm from Jew haters does not disguise the fact there never was a nation called Christ. Christianity is nothing but a religion not a nationality nor a peoplehood.
A better smartass example would have been Islam, where a Muslim is one whose father is Muslim or one who converts to Islam via Muslim authority. You'd still have no peoplehood because though there is a concept of Dar ul Islam there is no one nation state dubbed Islam.
There are no scientific Judaic, Christian, nor Muslim "traits."
Since Jewish refers to both a people and a religion confusion sets in when considering biology of groups self-identifying as Jews. Some groups have or once had a core of ancient Hebrew ancestors. These would be Israelites. Other groups have no Hebrew core and can only be Jews.
Anyone can become a Jew but only birth through a parent of Hebrew heritage can make one an Israelite. Since the Hebrews spent their earliest history for a little more than 2000 years on the far north east extension of Africa, misnomered southwest Asia, one scientific way to aid in distinguishing Jewish populations of Israelite ancestry is to verify the presence of mtDNA and/or nrY chromosomes indicative of one time far north east African extension provenance or residence.
However, science will not alter Jewish authorities rulings. Per Jewish authority the Beta Israel of modern Ethiopia are of Hebrew descent primarily from the Tribe of Dan. But per current science the Beta Israel lack some markers present in Jewish groups reckoned as of "recent" Levantine origins.
quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: ... Nope, nothing is right about your mum's Coon-clit, because its where you came from, your Arab jacked Faggot-Cancer spreading Coon-clitness.
quote:Originally posted by Your Coon-descended Faggot-Cancer spreading Pussy:
quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: ... Nope, nothing is right about your mum's Coon-clit, because its where you came from, your Arab jacked Faggot-Cancer spreading Coon-clitness.
Well, caribbean Faggot-Cancer spreading despot -- Remember you asked; I answered. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can be *right* about your mum's vermin crawling caribbean cunt. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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about the M89 chromosomes part, are you referring to the Y haplogroups descendded from M89(G,H,I,J and K)?
At this stage, you still don't know what a paragroup of undifferentiated chromosomes means?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Man, what does *undifferentiated* chromosomes mean to you?
Ps - Let's just cut to the chase, shall we: I am referring to what some call "underived" or else "ancestral" markers. I'm not referring to sub-clades. Hope that helps.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: Let's just cut to the chase, shall we: wether mtDNA or Y-DNA, there is little or no evidence my white Jewish brethren are of Hebrew/Levantine descent. Hope that helps.
quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: Man, what does *undifferentiated* chromosomes mean to you?
Ps - Let's just cut to the chase, shall we: I am referring to what some call "underived" or else "ancestral" markers. I'm not referring to sub-clades. Hope that helps.
Like Paragroup J*?
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: Man, what does *undifferentiated* chromosomes mean to you?
Ps - Let's just cut to the chase, shall we: I am referring to what some call "underived" or else "ancestral" markers. I'm not referring to sub-clades. Hope that helps.
Like Paragroup J*?
Yes under-derived/pristine lineages, and not the derivatives/ sub-clades.
ex.
The Levantine Corridor versus the Horn of Africa
quote: Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: Man, what does *undifferentiated* chromosomes mean to you?
Ps - Let's just cut to the chase, shall we: I am referring to what some call "underived" or else "ancestral" markers. I'm not referring to sub-clades. Hope that helps.
Like Paragroup J*?
Yes under-derived/pristine lineages, and not the derivatives/ sub-clades.
ex.
The Levantine Corridor versus the Horn of Africa
quote: Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.
I agree.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
^^^^It wasn't meant for you to agree, but rather for you to understand. So now that you do.....Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes? As Explorateur has asked.
quote:
"Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East"
^^^Since you say IJ descends from Y-hgF, and since Exploratuer makes mention of FM89* underived chromosomes in Sudan. This prompts the question of, do you know of any underived levantine paragroup M89* chromosomes? If not, then how do you propose a Levantine origin?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^^^It wasn't meant for you to agree, but rather for you to understand. So now that you do.....Have you come across any Levantine paragroup of undifferentiated M89 chromosomes? As Explorateur has asked.
quote:
"Haplogroup IJ is believed to descend from Y Haplogroup F and originated on the Middle East"
^^^Since you say IJ descends from Y-hgF, and since Exploratuer makes mention of FM89* underived chromosomes in Sudan. This prompts the question of, do you know of any underived levantine paragroup M89* chromosomes? If not, then how do you propose a Levantine origin?
I wasn't the one proposing it, it were the scientists making the hypothesis of haplogroup IJ originating on either the Middle East or the Levant.No, I don't know any Levantine M89 chromosome.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:I wasn't the one proposing it, it were the scientists making the hypothesis of haplogroup IJ originating on either the Middle East or the Levant.No, I don't know any Levantine M89 chromosome.
Might I ask which scientists these were? Were they Wikipedia scientists? Perhaps scholars with degrees from the university of pseudo sciences?
hypothesis
Function:noun circa 1656
1 a: an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b: an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action2: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences3: the antecedent clause of a conditional statement
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:I wasn't the one proposing it, it were the scientists making the hypothesis of haplogroup IJ originating on either the Middle East or the Levant.No, I don't know any Levantine M89 chromosome.
Might I ask which scientists these were? Were they Wikipedia scientists? Perhaps scholars with degrees from the university of pseudo sciences?
hypothesis
Function:noun circa 1656
1 a: an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b: an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action2: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences3: the antecedent clause of a conditional statement
The ones at genome research
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^ Well then can we can basically say that this hypothesis, was pretty much nothing more than just a hypothesis, which is .....
a: an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument
Yes, only an hypothesis, but a good one to think about.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^ Well then can we can basically say that this hypothesis, was pretty much nothing more than just a hypothesis, which is .....
a: an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument
Yes, only an hypothesis, but a good one to think about.
Not really, it was actually an ASS-umption made for the sake of argument, exactly how the word hypothesis is defined.
If not, then how or why would it be something good to think about? Isn't it actually some wishful thinking?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: As usual, Supercar shows a subtle and well researched understanding of genetics.
It is probable that many early derived M-168 male and L3MNx female markers are of African origin.
All non Africans originate in East Africa - and not, "the middle east", and moreover even after the outmigration of the ancestors of non Africans....they would woud, themselves make up less than "1%" of the human populice.
The earliest evidences of non African lineages, or skeletal remains, in fact, do not even show up in the middle east. Rather they appear in Australia, and South Asia.
And this is consistent with the lack of autosomal diversity outside of Africa.
In other words - when you grant apriori "middle eastern" origin to too many lineages, you have to start explaining why non African human populations fail to model as being middle eastern derived.
For example - you can model the Chinese or Indians or South Asians as and offshoot of African lineages, but you *cannot* model them as and offshoot of "middle eastern" lineages.
Specifically Indians have ancient "M" derivities for example which are not found in the middle east - but must lead back to African L3.
^ There is and ongoing history in genetics of a-priori speculation of the 'middle-east' as a source origin for various lineages which are in fact -not found- in the 'middle-east'.
There is a reason for this.
The levant offers the best hope prospect for tracing lineages back to their putative origin.... while stopping short of Africa.
The middle east aids also aids in laundering African influences in Europe.
In fact, the 'middle east' is granted non parsimonious treatment in many matters - birth of writing, of civilisation itself, etc..
No other 'geo-polity' is treated in this way.
"X" is actually not-found in the middle east,
yet...
"X" is claimed to originated in the middle east, anyway.
These claims are repeated ad nauseum until they are 'supposedly' self evident truths, when they are often assumptive, or even utterly illogical.
As usual you are absolutely correct Rasol. The above is the very reason why certain lineages found in Africa, especially in North Africa that are either found in Eurasian *or* similar to those found in Eurasia are often times assumed to have a Eurasian or specifically "Middle-Eastern"/Southwest Asian origin. We've been seeing this lately with a certain poster's claim about mitochondrial lineage U6 even though its presence outside of Africa is minimal.
Also, how can the Levant help bridge the gap between paleo-Eurasian lineages and the ancestral ones of Africa if just as you said the oldest Eurasian clades are not even found in Southwest Asia today, not even in Southern Arabia, yet such lineages are associated with the Indian subcontinent, Southeast Asia, and Oceania?? I thought this was evidence enough that the first OOA expansion occurred via a southern route across the Gulf of Aden if not to Southern Arabia, then around it? If so, then how does the Levant help scholars??
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^Thus...... false classifications are also made about skulls found in north Africa, the near east, and southern Europe, that erroneous label, of course, is Mediterranean. This guise is specifically designed to ignore and downplay the African influence in the so called Mediterranean area. Just as they erroneously assign Semitic solely to Jews, meanwhile the first Semites themselves were just a few Africans arriving to meet people already in the middle east. It's like the son denying his grandfather for his(the grandsons) own existence.
Of course such a ruse is convenient for racist white scholars and supremacists. So it is no surprise that Southwest Asia is used not only as a buffer but an origin point of the so-called "caucasian" or "caucasoid" race who developed civilizaton there and expanded into Europe and Africa bringing civilization with them.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: So, if Christian authorities acknowledge the Christanity of a converting Jew as; Christian: and likewise the Judea authorities still recognize the convert as, Jewish; Is the convert then acknowledged as a recognized member of both the Jewish and Christian peoples? Converting is sort of like a dual citizen passport, but acquired by assimilation, aye.
SO, are you saying Muslims have a genetic profile as well?
No. That is not what Takruri is saying at all if you comprended correctly. Judaism is a religion but there is a Jewish ethnicity as well. Thus there are 'Jews' strictly by religion while others are 'Jews' by ethnicity or both.
And of course there is no genetic profile at all for Muslims since Muslims range from Indonesians, to Western Chinese Turks, to Eastern Europeans, to Indo peoples, (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis), to Africans throughout the continent. One is Muslim by religion only, ironically all the prophets of the Christian and Judaic traditions are also considered 'Muslim' but modern day Muslims are those who accept Muhammad as the last prophet.
quote:Eva wrote: It always amazes me to see so-called "Africanist" scholars put so much faith in stories about mythic Asiatic "nations" that never were, Asiatic religious authorities and rules laid down by men that never even lived. LOL
So are you saying the ancient kingdom of Israel never existed as well as its peoples including religious athorities??.. Even though such was documented by their neigbors both in the Levant Africa, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and Europe???
LMAO It must be true then that jew-phobia causes psychotic delusions of denial so great that one would deny basic historical facts not just the Holocaust but even the kingdom of Judaea! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^ Well then can we can basically say that this hypothesis, was pretty much nothing more than just a hypothesis, which is .....
a: an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument
Yes, only an hypothesis, but a good one to think about.
Not really, it was actually an ASS-umption made for the sake of argument, exactly how the word hypothesis is defined.
If not, then how or why would it be something good to think about? Isn't it actually some wishful thinking?
Perhaps you are right on that, beter not make any assumptions until real proof is present.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote: It always amazes me to see so-called "Africanist" scholars put so much faith in stories about mythic Asiatic "nations" that never were, Asiatic religious authorities and rules laid down by men that never even lived. LOL
So are you saying the ancient kingdom of Israel never existed as well as its peoples including religious athorities??.. Even though such was documented by their neigbors both in the Levant Africa, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and Europe???[/QB]
Where in that quote did I say ancient Israel didn't exist? "Asiatic religious authorities and rules laid down by men that never even lived." is in reference to the "Moses" figure, you know, the one who's credited with the first five books. Oh wait, what am I saying, you don't know s**t. LOL
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: As per Jewish authorities a Jew is
1). a person whose birth mother was a Jew at the time the person was born
2). a person who converts to Judaism via recognized authorities
hence there are Jews by birth (regardles of religion or lack thereof.
This is why Jews are a people not a religion.
Neither point 1 nor point 2 has anything to do with genetics, period. "Jewishness" has nothing to do with a person's DNA and everthing to do with religion/culture.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: No. That is not what Takruri is saying at all if you comprended correctly. Judaism is a religion but there is a Jewish ethnicity as well. Thus there are 'Jews' strictly by religion while others are 'Jews' by ethnicity or both.
Again, none of this has anything to do with a person's DNA.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: And of course there is no genetic profile at all for Muslims since Muslims range from Indonesians, to Western Chinese Turks, to Eastern Europeans, to Indo peoples, (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis), to Africans throughout the continent.
Isn't the same true for Jews?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One is Muslim by religion only, ironically all the prophets of the Christian and Judaic traditions are also considered 'Muslim' but modern day Muslims are those who accept Muhammad as the last prophet.
Incorrect. There are ethinc "Muslims" in much the same way there are ethnic "Jews".
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: Again, none of this has anything to do with a person's DNA.
It does, if it is a matter of ethnic descent.
quote:Isn't the same true for Jews?
Religiously yes, but not ethnically. There is no 'Muslim' ethnicity is there??
quote:Incorrect. There are ethinc "Muslims" in much the same way there are ethnic "Jews".
Pray tell us who these people are that are ethnically "Muslim"! Are you saying there was an actual group of people called 'Islam' or something??!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ pray tell us when are you going to answer his question re when did the Jews become monotheistic. And while you at it, prey tell when are you going to back up your s**t claim about Greek classical philosophy being "home grown". LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:It does, if it is a matter of ethnic descent.[/qb]
BS. African Americans, Afro Cubans, Afro Brazilians, and other Diaspora Africans all have different ethnicities - yet they all share the same DNA. Falasha Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, OTOH, are not related - despite the fact that they are both Jewish groups. Ethnicity has nothing to do with a person's DNA and I defy you to provide ONE example to prove otherwise.
quote:There is no 'Muslim' ethnicity is there??
Yes, there is. They are called cultural Muslims. They are secular in their belief, but Islamic in some aspects of their every-day lives, just like secular Jews.
quote:Pray tell us who these people are that are ethnically "Muslim"! Are you saying there was an actual group of people called 'Islam' or something??!
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