quote:Pray tell us who these people are that are ethnically "Muslim"! Are you saying there was an actual group of people called 'Islam' or something??!
See above. [/QB]
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: BS. African Americans, Afro Cubans, Afro Brazilians, and other Diaspora Africans all have different ethnicities - yet they all share the same DNA. Falasha Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, OTOH, are not related - despite the fact that they are both Jewish groups. Ethnicity has nothing to do with a person's DNA and I defy you to provide ONE example to prove otherwise.
I didn't say ethnicity did necessarily have to do with genetic lineage! But you list a variety of ethnic groups while we only speak of one 'Jewish'.
quote:Yes, there is. They are called cultural Muslims. They are secular in their belief, but Islamic in some aspects of their every-day lives, just like secular Jews.
This is not the same as an actual ethnic group. Show me an acutal people whose ethnic name is 'Muslim'. The say Jews were an ethnic group of ancient Palestine.
See above. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 26302 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It is best to use Hebrew rather than Jew since only the word Hebrew actually denotes Y-lineage.
Hebrews as the sons of Eber which includes a significantly diverse group of people from the Levant.
As AlTutankamum has already stated - Jews are matrilineal and thus the subject title of this thread is non-sensical since you should not look for Jewish people via patrilineal heritage.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^Don't know if it is just a display of sacarsm, but what is said that the CMH supposed to represent, if not an eponymous patrilineal ancestor of the so-named priestly class?! Of course, this is not to say that this matrilineal heritage is not the norm in many Jewish communities which follow the Halakhic custom.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Hebrew denotes a language (Canaanitic) and a folk group who took on that language and claim to be descended from an eponymous ancestor Ya`aqob/Yisra'el who in turn descended from an ancestor named `Eber.
Jews are not matrilineal. While the mother makes her children members of the nation/people, it is the father who gives the child a tribe to belong to.
But of course every Jew actual connected to the Jewish people knows this. Both mtDNA and the nrY chromosome are helpful in genetic studies of Jewish populations.
Yet we must realize there is no Jewish marker though the CMH seems to indeed indicate a connection between kohaniym in variated Jewish populations spanning vast geographic regions.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It is best to use Hebrew rather than Jew since only the word Hebrew actually denotes Y-lineage.
Hebrews as the sons of Eber which includes a significantly diverse group of people from the Levant.
As AlTutankamum has already stated - Jews are matrilineal and thus the subject title of this thread is non-sensical since you should not look for Jewish people via patrilineal heritage.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Also, Hebrew is a term for over 2 millenia that applies only to "Jews."
Y*hudah (Judah) was a tribe and their territory. Y*hudah later designated a confederated kingdom composed of two or three Israelite tribes.
Refugees from the kingdom of Israel, the other confederation of the 10 tribes who refused the leadership of Judahite headmen, flooded Y*hudah after Assyrian and Babylonan conquests.
This is how the Israelites got to take on the name "Jew" (in English) as derived from Judah the surviving kingdom's citizenry regardless of tribal affiliation.
"Jews" use the term Hebrew to identify themselves to non-Jews. Knowledgeable "Jews" will not refer to themselves as Hebrew. To do so is tantamount to calling one a slave.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It is best to use Hebrew rather than Jew since only the word Hebrew actually denotes Y-lineage.
Hebrews as the sons of Eber which includes a significantly diverse group of people from the Levant.
As AlTutankamum has already stated - Jews are matrilineal and thus the subject title of this thread is non-sensical since you should not look for Jewish people via patrilineal heritage.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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The quest for genes associated with diseases is widely recognized as an essential task in the effort to investigate the genetic basis of complex human disorders and traits. A basic stage in association studies is the careful choice of the model population, with preference to closed groups having little population substructure. Here, we show evidence for significant geographic substructure (P=0.017) of the maternal lineage represented by mitochondrial DNA variation in one of the most commonly studied populations, the Ashkenazi Jews. Most of the substructure effect stems from differential representation of haplogroups K and H. Our results underline the essentiality of adjusting data of population genetic variation for substructure during the design of association studies, even in apparently closed populations.
Ashkenazi Jews, considered to be an isolated population that has undergone a recent bottleneck,1, 2, 3, 4 constitute a model population for the search of disease-causing mutations and disease-susceptibility genes. One of the most commonly used arguments for choosing Ashkenazi Jews for such studies is the lack of population substructure.5 Nevertheless, differential distribution of disease-causing-mutations among Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern European versus Central European ancestry suggests genetic drift and may thus imply possible population substructures among Ashkenazi Jews.6 This consideration is particularly crucial when association studies are performed with the common disease variant approach, as the prevalence of the disease-associated variant may vary among populations owing to genetic drift.4 Indeed, during an association study on type II diabetes mellitus and its complications recently conducted by our group, we found a significant difference in the distribution of linked sets of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) common variants (haplogroups) in Ashkenazi Jews of different geographic origins (Feder et al., 2007, submitted). This observation, along with the frequent use of mtDNA as a target for association studies, led us to assess, using mtDNA, population substructure in the maternal lineage of Ashkenazi Jews. A cohort of 300 healthy unrelated subjects of Ashkenazi Jewish origin, who previously served as control subjects in association studies at the Hebrew University, was analyzed in a hierarchical manner for mtDNA haplogroups, starting from haplogroups K and H, reported to be the most prevalent in Ashkenazi Jews, followed by the less prevalent types.1, 7 To increase the sample size, we added to the analysis previously published data for mtDNA haplogroup distribution in 565 unrelated subjects of the Ashkenazi Jewish origin.7 Among these 865 subjects, 704 were with known maternal geographic origin. Classification of these subjects according to maternal geographic origin gave three subpopulations that were considered sufficiently large for further analysis: that originating from Russia and the Ukraine (combined into one group due to geographical proximity, 'RU'), that from Poland, and that from Romania. This division into subpopulations resulted in a total of 446 subjects included in the study (Table 1). To avoid comparisons of haplogroups for which sample sizes were small, we grouped some haplogroups together according to phylogenetic considerations, that is, N1 with I, and W with X. Haplogroups M and Pre-HV (as well as haplogroup L in Table 2) were considered together with 'others' (Table 1). We used the R C test of independence to compare the haplogroup distribution among the three different Jewish communities.8 To determine which of the haplogroups made the largest contribution to the overall heterogeneity, we performed an unplanned test.8 The statistical analyses were performed using Systat 9.0 (Systat Software, Inc., CA, USA), and results were considered statistically significant if <0.05.
These are the MTDNA of Ashkenazi Jews.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: BS. African Americans, Afro Cubans, Afro Brazilians, and other Diaspora Africans all have different ethnicities - yet they all share the same DNA. Falasha Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, OTOH, are not related - despite the fact that they are both Jewish groups. Ethnicity has nothing to do with a person's DNA and I defy you to provide ONE example to prove otherwise.
I didn't say ethnicity did necessarily have to do with genetic lineage! But you list a variety of ethnic groups while we only speak of one 'Jewish'.
You are mistaken. I spoke of two distinct Jewish groups, not one. Falasha Jews and Ashkenzai Jews do not comprise a single group. They are seperate and distinct.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: Yes, there is. They are called cultural Muslims. They are secular in their belief, but Islamic in some aspects of their every-day lives, just like secular Jews.
This is not the same as an actual ethnic group. Show me an acutal people whose ethnic name is 'Muslim'. The say Jews were an ethnic group of ancient Palestine.
Secular Muslims identify themselves as Muslims in much the same way Secular Jews identify themselves as Jews. The fact that they don't call themselves "Secular Muslims" to distinguish themselves from "Religious Muslims" is irrelevant. Last I checked, Secular Jews don't go out of their way to distinguish themselves from "Religious Jews" either...
That said, show me the evidence to suggest "Jewishness" has anything to do with DNA - then show how that evidence applies to groups like the Falasha and Ashkenazim...
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Also, Hebrew is a term for over 2 millenia that applies only to "Jews."
Y*hudah (Judah) was a tribe and their territory. Y*hudah later designated a confederated kingdom composed of two or three Israelite tribes.
Refugees from the kingdom of Israel, the other confederation of the 10 tribes who refused the leadership of Judahite headmen, flooded Y*hudah after Assyrian and Babylonan conquests.
This is how the Israelites got to take on the name "Jew" (in English) as derived from Judah the surviving kingdom's citizenry regardless of tribal affiliation.
"Jews" use the term Hebrew to identify themselves to non-Jews. Knowledgeable "Jews" will not refer to themselves as Hebrew. To do so is tantamount to calling one a slave.
Abraham was called a Hebrew. Nothing more needs to be said to support my premise.
The first Hebrew is actually Eber. Jew is actually a name given to Hebrews which is in reference to people of Judah. Hebrew is far more ancient of a term for our people - Al Tutakhamun.
Jew is actually derogatory but then so is Hebrew to some degree.
Hebrew - Wonderer - Nomad - foreigner - etc.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Islam: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford University Press, 2000) as follows:
There is, however, a secondary meaning to 'Muslim' which may shade into the first. A Muslim is one born to a Muslim father who takes on his or her parents' confessional identity without necessarily subscribing to the beliefs and practices associated with the faith, just as a Jew may describe him- or herself as 'Jewish' without observing the Halacha. In non-Muslim societies, such Muslims may subscribe to, and be vested with, secular identities. The label 'Muslim' indicates their ethnicity and group allegiance, but not necessarily their religious beliefs. In this limited context (which may apply to other Muslim minorities in Europe and Asia), there may be no contradiction between being Muslim and being atheist or agnostic, just as there are Jewish atheists and Jewish agnostics... It should be noted, however, that this secular definition of Muslim (sometimes the terms 'cultural Muslim' or 'nominal Muslim' are used) is very far from being uncontested.
posted
"Jew" is not a pejorative. It has been proudly used since all Israel was devolved to but one kingdom, Judah.
But as far back as the time of the Nebiiym, Hebrew has designated slave among the Israelites. Of course one wouldn't expect a non-Jew to know this fact.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Also, Hebrew is a term for over 2 millenia that applies only to "Jews."
Y*hudah (Judah) was a tribe and their territory. Y*hudah later designated a confederated kingdom composed of two or three Israelite tribes.
Refugees from the kingdom of Israel, the other confederation of the 10 tribes who refused the leadership of Judahite headmen, flooded Y*hudah after Assyrian and Babylonan conquests.
quote:I've only come across one study that speakes of F-M89* chromosomes, and that's in the Sudanese sample referenced by Arredi et al.'s 2004/5 study
As usual, Supercar shows a subtle and well researched understanding of genetics.
It is probable that many early derived M-168 male and L3MNx female markers are of African origin.
All non Africans originate in East Africa - and not, "the middle east", and moreover even after the outmigration of the ancestors of non Africans....they would woud, themselves make up less than "1%" of the human populice.
The earliest evidences of non African lineages, or skeletal remains, in fact, do not even show up in the middle east. Rather they appear in Australia, and South Asia.
And this is consistent with the lack of autosomal diversity outside of Africa.
In other words - when you grant apriori "middle eastern" origin to too many lineages, you have to start explaining why non African human populations fail to model as being middle eastern derived.
For example - you can model the Chinese or Indians or South Asians as and offshoot of African lineages, but you *cannot* model them as and offshoot of "middle eastern" lineages.
Specifically Indians have ancient "M" derivities for example which are not found in the middle east - but must lead back to African L3.
^ There is and ongoing history in genetics of a-priori speculation of the 'middle-east' as a source origin for various lineages which are in fact -not found- in the 'middle-east'.
There is a reason for this.
The levant offers the best hope prospect for tracing lineages back to their putative origin.... while stopping short of Africa.
The middle east aids also aids in laundering African influences in Europe.
In fact, the 'middle east' is granted non parsimonious treatment in many matters - birth of writing, of civilisation itself, etc..
No other 'geo-polity' is treated in this way.
"X" is actually not-found in the middle east,
yet...
"X" is claimed to originated in the middle east, anyway.
These claims are repeated ad nauseum until they are 'supposedly' self evident truths, when they are often assumptive, or even utterly illogical.
Wow I never really noticed that until now
quote:t always amazes me to see so-called "Africanist" scholars put so much faith in stories about mythic Asiatic "nations" that never were, Asiatic religious authorities and rules laid down by men that never even lived. LOL
LOL good point. Who cares about what Jews say they were and are this is about science/nature. Indeed there are not JEWISH people it is just a RELIGION.
Posts: 152 | Registered: Sep 2008
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DevilNegrokiller_Wolofi aka vida (white boy) wrote:
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Rumor has it that at Thanksgiving dinner all of the male members of your family sit at the dinner table without pants or underwear. And they pass the calamine ointment around like they do the green beans and dinner rolls.
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