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Author Topic: E3b Middle Eastern Origin arguments?
beyoku
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Most of what I have read explains the reasons for the Eastern African origin of E3b and many of its sublcades. Speaking of M35 I have heard that there are arguments of East Africa vs. Middle East. National Geographic - Atlas of the Human Journey states middle east and I know there are some believers of Middle Eastern origin. What are their arguments though? Of course Nat Geo doesn't say why they disagree with everyone. Anyone have any directions on information as toy WHY M35 could have a Middle Eastern origin. Dont want to sound redundant but what are the scientific reasons and are their any studies that argue it?

Thanks ahead.

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rasol
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All geneticists agree on and African origin for E3b.
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beyoku
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Right but Nat Geo had to get the source from somewhere? There must be some argument for the Middle East. The quote that we have heard before is :

quote:
The man who gave rise to marker M35 was born around 20,000 years ago in the Middle East. His descendants were among the first farmers and helped spread agriculture from the Middle East into the Mediterranean region.
Playing devils advocate how would someone argue this even if the argument was incorrect? Before the Cruciani and Semino groups studies was there anything else in place that had a reason for such a statement?

Someone has to believe it for National Geographic to post it. [Confused]

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
Right but Nat Geo had to get the source from somewhere? There must be some argument for the Middle East. The quote that we have heard before is :

quote:
The man who gave rise to marker M35 was born around 20,000 years ago in the Middle East. His descendants were among the first farmers and helped spread agriculture from the Middle East into the Mediterranean region.
Playing devils advocate how would someone argue this even if the argument was incorrect? Before the Cruciani and Semino groups studies was there anything else in place that had a reason for such a statement?

Someone has to believe it for National Geographic to post it. [Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
National Geographic's web comments are not always written by biologist and there are errors of omission and commision,

However they do state correctly:

M96 is the second lineage defined by the precense of YAP, it likely arose in NorthEast Africa

What is incorrect is this...

About 30,40k M96 carrying people moved out of Africa and into the middle East.

Nooo...not a single non African Haplotype J,R1,I etc. has the M96 marker.

These haplotypes are united by M89, which in turn, is NOT present in E, E1, E2, E3a or E3b.

So not only is this wrong, but the graphic accompanying the text regarding Haplogroup E shows that it is wrong...

https://www5.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

What migrated out of Africa is the precursor of M96, which is M168.

There are no E haplotype outside of Africa prior to E3b1 spreading into the Levant 14ky~ and Europe 8ky~.

Spencer Wells heads the National Geographic genome project and clarifies:

National Geographic Magazine
October 2004,

"Most men living in the area surrounding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96, which is the aboriginal type in North and West Africa."

"No more than 20 percent of the men we sampled had Y Chromosomes that originated in the Middle East. [Haplogroup J, M168 to M89]

Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern."

Also see.... http://www.roperld.com/YBiallelicHaplogroups.htm
...which shows which markers are and are not present in the different haplotypes, even as it repeats the Middle East, misnomer.

To add to the above.....


The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
J. R. Luis,1,2,* D. J. Rowold,1,* M. Regueiro,2 B. Caeiro,2 C. Cinnioğlu,3 C. Roseman,3 P. A. Underhill,3 L. L. Cavalli-Sforza,3 and R. J. Herrera1


A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic (Underhill et al. 2001b). The East African origin of this lineage is supported by the much larger variance of the E3b-M35 males in Egypt versus Oman (0.5 versus 0.14; table 3). Consistent with the NRY data is the mtDNA expansion estimate of 10–20 ky ago for the East African M1 clade. Local expansions of this clade and subsequent demic movements may have resulted in the irregular presence of the M1 haplogroup in the Mediterranean area (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999).

M35 chromosomes are seen in the Oman, North African, and East African populations, as well as in the South African Khoisans (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study). There are three distinctive sublineages (E3b1-M78, E3b2-M123, and E3b3-M81) that display nonrandom distributions (fig. 1). E3b1-M78 predominates in Egypt and Ethiopia, E3b3-M123 in Oman, and E3b2-M81 in northwestern Africa. Importantly, these three sublineages are restricted to regions north of the equator. In contrast, the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined almost exclusively to the sub-Saharan populations, except for a very low incidence in Egypt (2.7%) and a somewhat larger frequency in Ethiopia (7%, as reported by Underhill et al. [2000]). The highest levels of E3b*-M35 are in Tanzania (37.2%), Kenya (13.8%), and the Khoisans (11% in !Kung and 31% in Khwe).

The present-day Egyptian E3b-M35 distribution most likely results from a juxtaposition of various demic episodes. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa.


--------


"a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with M35/M215
mutation [E3b] expanded northwards from sub-Saharan to north Africa
and the Levant" (Underhill et al., 2001, p. 55; see also Bosch et
al., 2001; Bar-Yosef, 1987) [Keita, 2005, p. 562]

The M35/M215 sub-clade cluster of haplotypes fragments a lineage (Ht
4) described previously (Hammer et al. 1997). We suggest that a
population with this sub-clade of the African YAP/M145/M203/PN2
cluster expanded into the southern and eastern Mediterranean at the
end of the Pleistocene...These lineages would have been introduced
then from the Middle East into southern Europe (and to a lesser
extent northern India and Pakistan) by farmers during the Neolithic
expansion. [Underhill et al., 2001, p. 51]

The Pleistocene epoch on the geologic timescale is the period from
1.8 million to 11,550 years BP [BP = before present (i.e. 1950)]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene]

...the diffusion of Neolithic farmers from the Near East between
4,000 and 7,500 years ago (Semino et al. 2000)...Interestingly, M35+
chromosomes (E3b*; or their evolutionary precursors E* and E3*) were
previously hypothesized to have migrated to Europe with farmers in
the Neolithic (Hammer et al. 1997; Rosser et al. 2000; Semino et al.
2000). However, because M35* chromosomes are rare in Europe, we
instead hypothesize that the derived lineage, E-M78 (E3b1), is the
more likely haplogroup reflecting Neolithic demic diffusion. [Behar
et al., 2003, p. 362]

In Europe E3b is the third largest group after "R" and "I"
haplogroups

Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78δ chromosomes suggest a
relatively greater antiquity (14.7 ± 2.7 ky) for the separation of
eastern Africans from the other populations....demographic
population expansions involving clusters α [E-M78] in Europe
(TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.3-9.2 ky), β in northwestern Africa
(5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.2-7.5 ky), and γ in eastern Africa (9.6 ky;
95% CI 7.2-12.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to
the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed
area. [Cruciani et al., 2004, pp. 1017-1018]

E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East
and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al.
2001) E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near
East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic
expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al.,
2001). [Cruciani et al., 2004, pp. 1014-1015]

E3b's expansion into the Southern Levant may be connected to the
appearance of the Natufian Culture. [D'Agostino, 2006, p. 2]

...the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe
testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-
Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest
frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the
west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. [Cruciani et
al., 2004, p. 1018]

E3b1-M78 is the most common haplogroup E lineage in Europe (Cruciani
et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004). The spatial pattern...depicts a
nonuniform E3b1 geographic distribution with a frequency peak
centered in south Europe and SEE [South East Europe] (13%-16% in
southern Italians and 17%-27% in the Balkans) Declining frequencies
are evident toward western (10% in northern and central Italians),
central and eastern Europe (from 4% to 10% in Polish, Russians,
mainland Croatians, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Herzegovinians, and
Bosnians). Noteworthy is a low E3b1 frequency (5%) in Turkey.
Apart from its presence in Europe and the Middle East, E3b1 is also
found in eastern and northern Africa. Cruciani et al. (2004)
estimated that E3b-M78 might have originated in eastern Africa about
23.2 KYA (95% confidence interval [CI] 21.1-25.4)...Almost 93% of
SEE E3b1 chromosomes are clasified into α cluster. In Europe,
the highest E3b1α variance is among Apulians, Greeks, and
Macedonians, and the highest frequency of the cluster is among
Albanians, Macedonians, and Greeks...Furthermore, it may be
envisioned that the observed E3b1α frequency distribution in
Anatolia might stem from a back migration originating in south
Europe and SEE. Our estimated range expansion of 7.3 ± 2.8 KYA (95%
CI 6.3-9.2 KYA) estimate for expansions of cluster α
chromosomes in Europe reported by Cruciani et al. (2004) and the 6.4
KYA estimate for E3b1-M78 STR variance in Anatolia dated by
Cinnioğlu et al. (2004). The frequency and variance decline
of E3b1 in SEE is rather continuous..., with a frequency peak
extending from the southeastern edge of the region and a variance
peak in the southwest. Observed high E3b1 frequency in Kosovar
Albanians (46%) and Macedonian Romani (30%) represent a focal rather
than a clinal phenomenon resulting most likely from genetic drift.
E3b1 frequency and variance are significantly correlated with
latitude, showing higher values toward the south...A lower frequency
of E3b1 significantly distinguishes populations of the Adriatic-
Dinaric complex, i.e., mainland Croatians, Bosnians, and
Herzegovinians (7.9%; 95% CI 0.054-0.114), from their neighboring
populations of the Vardar-Morava-Danube river system, i.e., Serbians
and Macedonians (21.9%; 95% CI 0.166-0.283). These observations
hint a mosaic of different E3b1 dispersal modes over a short
geographic distance and point to the Vardar-Morava-Danube river
system as one of major routes for E3b1, in fact E3b1α,
expansion from south and southeastern to continental Europe. In
fact, dispersals of farmers throughout the Vardar-Morava-Danube
catchments basin are also evidenced in the archaeological record
(Tringham 2000). [Peričic et al., 2005]

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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rasol
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quote:
Right but Nat Geo had to get the source from somewhere?
^ Geneticist state that E3b is African in origin.

You should focus on reading their studies.

Instead you search for the source of misleading misinformation - which by definition exists to play 'hide & seek' with the facts.

A definition of a sucker is someone who chases the decoy instead of hunting the prey.

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