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Clyde, as you know, Whites have spent the last 200 years trying to prove that the original Blacks of Europe, the Middle East, and elsewhere were White people. Having failed at that; (because of people like us, I must add), they have now apparently decided to do the honest thing, and to actually spent the time and resources necessary, in trying to figure out where they actually do come from.
Which is fine, and with the Bullsh!t finally gone (eventually), the World will be a better place. But it seems to me that their methods and suppositions in this endeavor, are just as Bullsh!t as when they were trying to prove that Blacks were them. I am particularly amazed that they would try to use language to track genetics. But since I know little of linguistics, I thought that I would pass it by you - is it really possible to figure where White people came from, like this?
Article from Wiki: What is known about the Proto-Indo-Europeans with any certainty is the result of comparative linguistics of the Indo-European languages, partly supported by archaeology. The following traits are widely agreed-upon, but are hypothetical due to their reconstructed nature. However, the genetic phenotypes that describe them are accepted. The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a patrilineal society, probably semi-nomadic, relying on animal husbandry (notably cattle and sheep). They had domesticated the horse (*eḱwos). The cow (*gwous) played a central role, in religion and mythology as well as in daily life. A man's wealth would have been measured by the number of his animals (*peḱus, the word for small livestock, acquired a meaning of "value" in both English fee and in Latin pecunia).
They practiced a polytheistic religion centered on sacrificial rites, probably administered by a priestly caste. Burials in barrows or tomb chambers apply to the kurgan culture, in accordance with the original version of the Kurgan hypothesis, but not to the previous Sredny Stog culture nor to the contemporary Corded Ware culture, both of which cultures are also generally associated with PIE (Proto Indo-European). Important leaders would have been buried with their belongings in kurgans, and possibly also with members of their household or wives (human sacrifice, suttee). There is evidence for sacral kingship, suggesting the tribal king at the same time assumed the role of high priest (cf. Germanic king). Many Indo-European societies know a threefold division of a clerical class, a warrior class and a class of peasants or husbandmen.
Such a division was suggested for the Proto-Indo-European society by Georges Dumézil. If there had been a separate class of warriors, then it would probably have consisted of single young men. They would have followed a separate warrior code unacceptable in the society outside their peer-group. Traces of initiation rites in several Indo-European societies suggest that this group identified itself with wolves or dogs (see also Berserker, werewolf). Technologically, reconstruction suggests a culture of the early Bronze Age: Bronze was used to make tools and weapons. Silver and gold were known. Sheep were kept for wool, and weaving was practiced for textile production. The wheel was known, certainly for ox-drawn carts, and late Proto-Indo European warfare may also have made use of horse-drawn chariots. The native name of this people cannot be reconstructed with certainty. Aryo-, sometimes upheld as a self-identification of the Indo-Europeans (see Aryan), is attested as an ethnic designation only in the Indo-Iranian subfamily.
Origins The scholars of the 19th century who first tackled the question of the original homeland of the Indo-Europeans (also called Urheimat after the German term), were essentially confined to linguistic evidence. A rough localization was attempted by reconstructing the names of plants and animals (importantly the beech and the salmon) as well as the culture and technology (a Bronze Age culture centered on animal husbandry and having domesticated the horse). The scholarly opinions became basically divided between a European hypothesis, positing migration from Europe to Asia, and an Asian hypothesis, holding that the migration took place in the opposite direction.
However, in the 20th century it was often assumed the spread of the language was due to the invasions of an Aryan race. Such hypotheses suffered an extremely severe distortion for purposes of political propaganda by the Nazis. The question is still the source of much contention. Typically, nationalistic schools of thought either claim their respective territories for the original homeland, or maintain that their own culture and language have always been present in their area, dismissing the concept of Proto-Indo-Europeans altogether (see Aryan race, Aryan invasion theory, Eurocentrism, Paleolithic Continuity Theory). Archaeology Scheme of Indo-European migrations from ca. 4000 to 1000 BC according to the Kurgan hypothesis. The purple area corresponds to the assumed Urheimat (Samara culture, Sredny Stog culture). The red area corresponds to the area which may have been settled by Indo-European-speaking peoples up to ca. 2500 BC; the orange area to 1000 BC.
There have been many attempts to claim that particular prehistorical cultures can be identified with the PIE-speaking peoples, but all have been speculative. All attempts to identify an actual people with an unattested language depend on a sound reconstruction of that language that allows identification of cultural concepts and environmental factors which may be associated with particular cultures (such as the use of metals, agriculture vs. pastoralism, geographically distinctive plants and animals, etc).
In the 20th century, Marija Gimbutas created the Kurgan hypothesis, a modern variation of the traditional invasion theory. The name is after the Kurgans (burial mounds) of the Eurasian steppes. The hypothesis is that the Indo-Europeans were a nomadic tribe of the Pontic-Caspian steppe (today Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia) and expanded in several waves during the 3rd millennium BC. Their expansion coincided with the taming of the horse. Leaving archaeological signs of their presence (see battle-axe people), they subjugated the peaceful European Neolithic farmers of Gimbutas's Old Europe. As Gimbutas's beliefs evolved, she put increasing emphasis on the patriarchal, patrilinear nature of the invading culture, sharply contrasting it with the supposedly egalitarian, if not matrilinear culture of the invaded, to a point of formulating essentially feminist archaeology.
Her theory has found genetic support in remains from the Neolithic culture of Scandinavia, where bone remains in Neolithic graves indicated that the megalith culture was either matrilocal or matrilineal as the people buried in the same grave were related through the women. Likewise there is evidence of remaining matrilineal traditions among the Picts. A modified form of this theory by JP Mallory, dating the migrations earlier to around 4000 BC and putting less insistence on their violent or quasi-military nature, is still widely held.
The "Anatolian hypothesis" is that the Indo-European languages spread peacefully into Europe from Asia Minor from around 7000 BC with the advance of farming (wave of advance). The leading propagator of the theory is Colin Renfrew. However, this theory is contradicted by the fact that ancient Anatolia is known to have been inhabited by non-Indo-European people, namely the Hattians, Khalib/Karub, and Khaldi/Kardi. Also, the culture of the Indo-Europeans as inferred by linguistic reconstruction, contradicts this theory, since the early Neolithic cultures in Anatolia had neither the horse, nor the wheel, nor metal, terms for all of which are securely reconstructed for Proto-Indo-European. Yet another theory is connected with the Black Sea deluge theory, suggesting that PIE originated as the language of trade between early Neolithic Black Sea tribes.[5] Under this hypothesis, University of Pennsylvania archaeologist Fredrik T. Hiebert hypothesizes that the transition from PIE to IE dispersion occurred during an inundation of the Black Sea in the mid 6th millennium BC.[6] Genetics
The rise of archaeogenetic evidence which uses genetic analysis to trace migration patterns also added new elements to the puzzle. Cavalli-Sforza and Alberto Piazza argue that Renfrew and Gimbutas reinforce rather than contradict each other. Cavalli-Sforza (2000) states that "It is clear that, genetically speaking, peoples of the Kurgan steppe descended at least in part from people of the Middle Eastern Neolithic who immigrated there from Turkey." Piazza & Cavalli-Sforza (2006) state that:
if the expansions began at 9,500 years ago from Anatolia and at 6,000 years ago from the Yamnaya culture region, then a 3,500-year period elapsed during their migration to the Volga-Don region from Anatolia, probably through the Balkans. There a completely new, mostly pastoral culture developed under the stimulus of an environment unfavourable to standard agriculture, but offering new attractive possibilities. Our hypothesis is, therefore, that Indo-European languages derived from a secondary expansion from the Yamnaya culture region after the Neolithic farmers, possibly coming from Anatolia and settled there, developing pastoral nomadism.
Spencer Wells suggests that the origin, distribution and age of the R1a1 haplotype points to an ancient migration, possibly corresponding to the spread by the Kurgan people in their expansion across the Eurasian steppe around 3000 BC. About his old teacher's proposal, Wells (2002) states that "there is nothing to contradict this model, although the genetic patterns do not provide clear support either," and instead argues that the evidence is much stronger for Gimbutas' model: while we see substantial genetic and archaeological evidence for an Indo-European migration originating in the southern Russian steppes, there is little evidence for a similarly massive Indo-European migration from the Middle East to Europe. (comment - Wells seems to be the only one with a brain)
One possibility is that, as a much earlier migration (8,000 years old, as opposed to 4,000), the genetic signals carried by Indo-European-speaking farmers may simply have dispersed over the years. There is clearly some genetic evidence for migration from the Middle East, as Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues showed, but the signal is not strong enough for us to trace the distribution of Neolithic languages throughout the entirety of Indo-European-speaking Europe. High concentrations of Mesolithic or late Paleolithic YDNA haplogroups of types R1b (typically well above 35%) and I (up to 25%), are thought to derive ultimately of the robust Eurasiatic Cro Magnoid homo sapiens of the Aurignacian culture, and the subsequent gracile leptodolichomorphous people of the Gravettian culture that entered Europe from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, respectively.[7]
Small Neolithic additions can be concerned in occurrences of "Anatolian" haplogroups J2, G, F and E3b1a, the latter presenting a clearly Northeastern African element.[8][9] Haplogroup R1a1, whose lineage is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas, is associated with the Kurgan culture,[10] as well as with the postglacial Ahrensburg culture which has been suggested to have spread the gene originally.[11] On the other hand Dupuy and his colleagues proposed the ancestors of Scandinavian men from Haplogroup Hg P*(xR1a) or R1b (Y-DNA) to have brought Ahrensburg "culture" and stressed genetic similarity with Germany.[12] Ornella Semino et al. propose a postglacial spread of the R1a1 gene from the Ukrainian LGM refuge, subsequently magnified by the expansion of the Kurgan culture into Europe and eastward.[13]
Haplogroup R1a Distribution R1a1 is most prevalent in Poland, Russia, and Ukraine, and is also observed in Pakistan, India and central Asia. R1a1 is largely confined east of the Vistula gene barrier[14] and drops considerably to the west: R1a1 measurements read 6.2% to Germans (a 4X drop to Czechs and Slovakians reading 26,7%) and 3.7% to Dutch.[15] The spread of Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1a1 has been associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages too. The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years bp. Its defining mutation (M17) occurred about 10,000 to 14,000 years ago.
The present-day population of R1b, with extremely high peaks in Western Europe and measured up to the eastern confines of Central Asia, are believed to be the descendants of a refugium in the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain) at the Last Glacial Maximum, where the haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions eased with the Allerød Oscillation in about 12,000 BC, descendants of this group migrated and eventually recolonised all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps. The most common subclade is R1b1b2a, that has a maximum in Frisia (the Netherlands). It may have originated towards the end of the last ice age, or perhaps more or less 7000 BC, possibly in the northern European mainland[16] and a close match of the present–day distribution of S21 and the territorial pattern of the Eastern Corded Ware cultures and the Single Grave cultures has been observed.[17]
Developments in genetics take away much of the edge of the sometimes heated controversies about invasions. While findings confirm that there were population movements both related to the beginning Neolithic and the beginning Bronze Age, corresponding to Renfrew's and Gimbutas's Indo-Europeans, respectively, the genetic record obviously cannot yield any direct information as to the language spoken by these groups. The current interpretation of genetic data suggests a strong genetic continuity in Europe; specifically, studies of mtDNA by Bryan Sykes show that about 80% of the genetic stock of Europeans originated in the Paleolithic, suggesting that languages tend to spread geographically by cultural contact rather than by replacement. However, absence of unequivocal indications of underpinning unidirectional population movements fail to settle theories on Indo European language assimilation. This notion already gave rise to a new incarnation of the "European hypothesis" suggesting more local continuity, and holding the Indo-European culture to be the result of many local developments that shared certain wide range common ideas.
Glottochronology Using stochastic models of word evolution to study the presence/absence of different words across Indo-European, Gray & Atkinson suggest that the origin of Indo-European goes back about 8500 years, the first split being that of Hittite from the rest (Indo-Hittite hypothesis).They go to great lengths to avoid the problems associated with traditional approaches to glottochronology. However, their calculations rely entirely on Swadesh lists, and while the results are quite robust for well attested branches, their calculation of the age of Hittite, which is crucial for the Anatolian claim, rests on a 200 word Swadesh list of one single language and are regarded as contentious. A more recent paper analyzing (Atkinson et al., 2005) 24 mostly ancient languages, including three Anatolian languages, produced the same time estimates and early Anatolian split.
A scenario that could reconcile Renfrew's beliefs with the Kurgan hypothesis suggests that Indo-European migrations are somehow related to the submersion of the northeastern part of the Black Sea around 5600 BC: while a splinter group who became the proto-Hittite speakers moved into northeastern Anatolia around 7000 BC, the remaining population would have gone northward, evolving into the Kurgan culture, while others may have escaped far to the northeast (Tocharians) and the southeast (Indo-Iranians). While the time-frame of this scenario is consistent with Renfrew, it is incompatible with his core assumption that Indo-European spread with the advance of agriculture.
Of course, the spreading of IE as a trade language does not need to be based upon a Black Sea deluge. Since the genetic and archaeological evidence, especially in western Europe, shows little support for the Kurgan theory, it may be easier and more scientific to see the spread of Indo-European languages as the spread of a common language among diverse mesolithic groups that permitted entry into the marketplace of ideas and technologies that arrived in the Neolithic period.
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The Passing of the Great Race By Madison Grant -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part I - Race, Language, And Nationality --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter V Race, Language, and Nationality NATIONALITY is an artificial political grouping of population, usually centering around a single language as an expression of traditions and aspirations. Nationality can, however, exist independently of language, but states thus formed, such as Belgium or Austria, are far less stable than those where a uniform language is prevalent, as, for example, France or England. States without a single national language are constantly exposed to disintegration, especially where a substantial minority of the inhabitants speak a tongue which is predominant in an adjoining state with, as a consequence, a tendency to gravitate toward such state.
quote: The name "Aryan race" must also be frankly discarded as a term of racial significance. It is to-day purely linguistic, although there was at one time, of course, an identity between the original Aryan mother tongue and the race that first spoke and developed it. In short there is not now, and there never was either a Caucasian or an Indo-European race, but there was once, thousands of years ago, an Aryan race now long since vanished into dim memories of the past. If used in a racial sense other than as above it should be limited to the Nordic invaders of Hindustan now long extinct. The great lapse of time since the disappearance of the ancient Aryan race as such, is measured by the extreme disintegration of the various groups of Aryan languages. These linguistic divergences are chiefly due to the imposition by conquest of Aryan speech upon several unrelated subspecies of man throughout western Asia and Europe.
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The Linguistic Methods of Chiekh Anta Diop By Clyde Winters
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
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HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
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Traditionally we looked at linguistics to determine the origin and expansion of contemporary Europeans into Europe from the Caucasas. Some people are using genetic markers to discuss this issue but genes can tell us very little about th European expansion because much of the population genetics use statistical analysis to determine rates and direction of European expansion across Europe because there is little craniometric data for Europeans until after 2000 according to Diop.
There is disagreement over where the Europeans originated and when they spread across Europe. Dr. M. Gimbutas maintains that Europeans had their origin in the Pontic steppe country on the north coast of the Black Sea and began to expand into Europe as Kurgan nomads after 4000 B.C.(1) In 1987, Dr. C. Renfrew hypothesized that the Indo-Europeans lived in eastern Anatolia and spread into Europe around 7000 years ago with the spread of agriculture(2).
Both of these views have little support based upon the ancestral culture terms used by the Proto-Indo-European which are predominately of non Indo-European (I-E) origin.After a comparison of the linguistic, agricultural and genetic evidence researchers have found little support for both of these theories(3). Sokal et al, noted that:
"If the IEs originated in situ by local differentiationonly, there should be no significant partial correlation, since geography should fully explain the observed genetic and linguistic distances. This was not the case. If the genetics-language correlation were entirely due to the spread of populations accompanying the origin of agriculture, then the origin-of-agriculture model should suffice, or at least there should be some effect due to origin of agriculture. But we saw that origin-of-agriculture distances (OOA) cannot reduce the partial correlations remaining after geography has been held constant."
The evidence relating to the origin of the Indo-European speakers is contradictory. Originally Europeans were proud of the fact that they were nomads. As a symbol of their heritage they made the creation of the wheel and the domestication of the horse as symbols of Indo-European civilization.
In the 19th Century linguist began to "reconstruct" Proto-Indo-European the imagined ancestral language of people speaking these related languages. I say that Proto-Indo-European , like my Paleo-African reseaches is imagined because we have no text supporting the Proto/Paleo-languages we reconstruct. This research suggested that Indo-Europeans may have come from the Black Sea area. The only problem with the linguistic discoveries is that much of the cultural lexical is of unknown origin.
Renfrew attempted to link the IE people to the early farmers in Anatolia and Europe. This view was rejected because there is no evidence for farming playing a major role in IE civilization. Moreover, if farming terms are limited to geographically neighboring IE languages they suggest that these terms could be either innovations for this group of languages or borrowing from a a former language spoken in the area when the IE speakers arrived.
This conflicted with the popular view that the first IE speakers were Kurgan nomads . And in recent years some researchers have pointed out the fact that the Kurgan people may not have even domesticated the horse.
The Anatolia hypothesis had a good fit for Indo-European origin, because of Hittite. Indo-Europeanist claim that Hittite was the first IE language. The Hittite language is called Nesa.
The only problem with this theory was it was later found that the earliest rulers of the land were Kaska and Hatti speakers who spoke non-IE languages called Khattili. The gods of the Hattic people were Kasku and Kusuh (< Kush).
The Hattic people, may be related to the Hatiu, one of the Delta Tehenu tribes. Many archaeologist believe that the Tehenu people were related to the C-Group people. The Hattic language is closely related to African and Dravidian languages for example:
English Hattic Egyptian Malinke (Mande language)
powerful ur wr'great,big' fara
protect $uh swh solo-
head tup tp tu 'strike the head'
up,upper tufa tp dya, tu 'raising ground'
to stretch put pd pe, bamba
to prosper falfat -- find'ya
pour duq --- du 'to dispense'
child pin,pinu den
Mother na-a -- na
lord sa -- sa
place -ka -ka
The languages have similar syntax Hattic le fil 'his house'; Mande a falu 'his ]father's house'.
This suggest that the first Anatolians were Kushites, a view supported by the Hattic name for themselves: Kashka.
The Hittites adopted much of Hattic culture. There were other languages spoken in Anatolia, including Palaic Luwian and Hurrian.
The languages of the Hittites: Nesa, was a lingua franca used by the Luwian and Palaic speakers.
The Hurrians spoke a non-IE language. Formerly, linguist suggested that the Hurrians were dominated by Indic speakers. Linguist of the IE languages were fond of this theory because some of the names for the earliest Indo-Aryan gods, chariots and horsemenship are found in Hurrian.
This made the Indo-Aryan domination of Hurrians good support for an Anatolia origin for the IE speakers.This theory held high regrads until Bjarte Kaldhol studied 500 Hurrian names and found that only 5, were Indo-Aryan sounding. This made it clear that the IA people probably learned horsemenship from the Hurrians, and not the other way around.
At the base of Nesite, the language of the Hittites is Hattic. Since this language was used as a linguafranca, Nesa was probably not an IE language as assumed by IE linguist. This along with the fact that Diakonoff and Kohl never defeated the Kaska; and the Hurrians introduced horse-drawn war chariots for military purposes indicate that Anatolia probably was not a homeland for the IE speakers.
The genetic evidence supporting the absence of an Indo-European orgin in the Anatolian region is supported by the historical and archaeological evidence. The north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non-Indo-European speakers. It appears that Indo-Europeans did not enter Anatolia until sometime between 2000 -1800 B.C. At this time we note the appearence of Indo-European (Hittite) names in the literary records of the Old Kingdom of Hatti(4). And at least as late as 1900 B.C. Anatolia was basically still Hattian(5).
The usual method of Indo-European and Chinese invasion was two-fold. First, they settles in a country in small groups and were partly assimilated. Over a period of time their numbers increased. Once they reach a numerical majority they joined forces with other Indo-European speaking groups to militarialy overthrow the original inhabitants in a specific area and take political power. Since these communities occupied by the blacks often saw themselves as residents of a city-state, they would ignored the defeat of their neighbors. This typified their second form of invasion of the countries formerly ruled by the Proto-Saharans/Kushites/Blacks.
Blacks have failed even today to recognize that eventhough whites are highly nationalistic and engaged in numerous fratricidal wars, they will unify temporarily to defeat non-European people. As a result in case where the Blacks have been politically organized into states or Empires, rather than isolated city-states,the large political units have lasted for hundreds of years as typified by ancient Egypt, Axum, Mali and ancient Ghana.
D'iakonov on the other hand, believes that the Indo-Europeans (I-E) homeland was the Balkan-Carpathian region. He has shown that the culture terms of the I-E group indicate that they made their way across forest-steppe and deciduous forest zones to settle other parts of the world. This view is highly probable.
The view that these people were farmers seem unlikely, since the ideal farming areas in Europe were already settled by the Anu and people from the Fertile African Crescent as discussed in this unit. Instead of being farmers the I-E people were originally nomads.
The steppes could not have been the homeland of the Indo-Europeans because it was heavily occupied by the Proto-Saharan people until after 1300 B.C.In support of an early presence of Indo-European speakers on the steppes many scholars maintain that the Andronovo cultures and wheeled vehicles are markers of Indo-European "High" culture(6).
But this theory has been proven to be unsurpportable by the archeological and linguistic data (7). The civilizations and economy that characterized "Old Europe" are foreign to the Indo-European culture protrayed in the Indo-Aryan literature.
Many scholars use the chariot and horsemenship as an ethnic marker for the Indo-Europeans. But it can not be proven that the horse drawn chariot was an exclusive Indo-European marker (8). This is further supported by the fact that the IE roots for "wheel" number four , this illustrates that this technological innovation must have come from elsewhere and was later adopted by the Proto-Indo-Europeans after there dispersal(9). The wheeled vehicles were used in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley before the 3rd millennium. The presence of pre-Dynasty and early Dynasty wheeled toy animals from Egypt and elsewhere support the view that the wheel was a well known technology to the Kushites before the expansion of the Indo Europeans.
The horse can not be a marker for the Indo-European dispersal either. It would appear that in the steppes, the horse was not intensively used until the iron age(10). V.M. Masson beleives that horse domestication and riding developed in the 1st millennoum B.C., on the steppes (11).
The early I-E were Kurgan nomadic warriors. Kurgan is a name used by archaeologist for the early Europeans.The term I-E does not refer to a racial type, because many of the ancient I-E speakers may have been black , given the fact that among the depictions of the People of the Sea on Egyptian monuments their are African people. But today the only I-E people we have are Caucasian.
Evolving in the Caucasus mountains, the Kurgan folk were pastoralist. They herded cattle, pigs and sheep.
The Kurgans were a very destructive people. They destroyed vast regions of forest across Europe. By the Fourth millennium B.C., wide tracts of forests were gone in Europe. Upon their encounter with civilized Africoid communities, the latter were enslaved while the Kurgans adopted their culture. The Kurgan warriors used these slaves to grow grain.
The Indo-Europeans remained an insignificant group until they learned the art of metal working from the Hittites of Asia Minor. This along with natural disasters that took place around the world after 1600 B.C., helped the Kurgans to infiltrate civilized areas in the Aegean and Indus Valley.
The Kurgan people are also known as the Battle Axe/ Corded Ware Folk. By the Third millennium B.C., the Kurgan were breeding horses and organized themselves into militarized chiefdoms. The symbol of the warrior class was the horned helmet common to the Sea Folk and later Vikings. Their common weapon was the double axe.
The Kurgan folk in small numbers slowly migrated into the centers of civilization, first in northern Mesopotamia, then India. By 3500 B.C., the Kurgans were invading the Caucasus region. Beginning in 3700 B.C.,Old European settlements had walls built around them to keep out the Kurgan warriors.
These early I-E people practiced human sacrifice. At the death of a man his wife was often killed and buried with him.
By 1400 B.C., Mycenae civilization was under the control of a Kurgan ethnic group known as Achaeans. The Achaeans later founded other city-states in Greece.
Pictures of these nomadic warriors are depicted in courtyard of Medinet Habu, in Egypt. These white Japhetic Philistine folk were relocated in Palestine, where two hundred years later they destroyed Sidon and Troy. This Philistine Kurgan ethnic group is called Phrs in Egyptian documents.
Another group of Kurgan tribes took Crete. From bases in Crete, they invaded North Africa west of Egypt. These Kurgan tribesmen were called Rebou, by the Egyptians. This group formed the white Libyan population which occupied much of the Delta region of Egypt, before the founding of Carthage by the Phoenicians.
After conquering the original Pelasgian, and Mycenaeans, the Achaeans formed the Greek states of Peloponnesus. Their major cities: Mycenae and Tiryns in Argolis, and Pylos in Messenia were originally founded by the Pelasgians.
Between 1400-800 B.C., the Achaeans began to take control of the Greek mainland , the southern part of the Balkan Peninsula, Crete and numerous islands in the Aegean Sea. Under Agamemnon, the Achaeans conquered the Nubian, Egyptian and Phoenician armies at Troy, the last Pelasgian stronghold in the Aegean was destroyed.
By 1300 B.C., the Dorian tribes invaded Greece and defeated the Achaeans. The Dorian conquest of Mycenae led to Crete becoming a major center of Achaean civilization. The Dorians learned the art of writing from the Phoenicians.
The period between the 12th and 8th centuries B.C. , in the Aegean is considered the Dark Ages. The only information on these periods is found in the epics written by Homer Illiad and Odyssey.
These books show that the old trade links were destroyed and the I-E people were mainly pastoralist again since the Dorian invasion all culture was destroyed. At this time the Greeks got their gods from the Egyptians, and learned agriculture from Cerops, also an Egyptian. (Diop 1974; Bernal 1991)
Among the early I-E social relations were patriarchal. The hereditary warrior class controlled the best lands and large slave populations mainly made up of the native Blacks and poor Indo-Europeans. The landless people served as serfs for the ruling class made up of warriors.
Each Indo-European ethnic group was led by a Basileus. He was military commander, judge and high priest.
Footnotes
l. Gimbutas, M. (1973) Jour. Indo-Eur. Studies 1, pp.1-20, (1979) Arch. Suisses Anthropol. Gen. 43, pp.113-137.
2.. C. Renfrew, Archaeology and Language:The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins. London:Jonathan Cape, 1987.
3. Robert R. Sokal,Neal L. Oden and Barbara A. Thomson,"Origins of the Indo-Europeans: Genetic Evidence", Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 89 (August 1992), pp.7669-7673.
4.. I.Singer, "Hittites in Anatolia at the Beginning of the Second Millennium B.C.", Journal Indo-European Studies 9, No. 1&2 (1981), pp.119-134.
5. V. Haas, "Zalpa die Stadt am Schwarzen meer und das althethitische konigtum",Mitteilungen der Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft zu Berlin 109, (1977) pp.15-26.
6.. D.W. Athony,"The Archaeology of Indo-European origins", Journal of Indo-European Studies 19,no.3(1991),pp.193-222:199.
7. C.A. Winters,"Review on Dr. Asko Parpola's "The Coming of the Aryans" ", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18, no.2 (1989), pp.98-127.
8. Mallory, p.42.
9.. Anthony, p.199-200.
10.. Winters , pp.114-115 .
11. Winters ,p.115.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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As you know the Indo-European language family includes Indo-Aryan.A cursory examination of the history of Greece and their interactions with Asian populations fully explains the linguistic and genetic relationships that exist among and between these populations.
I don't believe that Indo-Aryan speakers (Indians and Iranians) and Indo-Europeans (People of Europe) ever lived in some ancestral homeland. They speak similar languages due to extended periods in which spealers of these languages lived in bilingual communities.
I am beginning to believe that after the Hittites defeated the Hatti and Kaska and other peoples belonging to the Hurrian and Mitanni kingdoms, these people were uprooted and forced into Iran. The lost of Anatolia to the Hittites, probably forced these people to become nomads.
In Iran they probably formed a significant portion of the Proto-Arya population. Here they may have met Indo-Iranian speaking people,who may have practiced a hunter-gatherer existence, that adopted aspects of their culture , especially the religion and use of Mitanni religious terms and chariot culture. Joining forces with the Mitannian-Hurrian exiles they probably attacked Dravidian and Austronesian speaking people who probably lived in walled cities.
The Austronesian and Dravidian people probably came in intimate contact during the Xia and Shang periods of China.
The first recorded Indo-European language is Hittite. Many researchers get the Hittites (Nesa) mixed up with the original settlers of Anatolia called Hatti according to Steiner “.[T]his discrepancy is either totally neglected and more or less skillfully veiled, or it is explained by the assumption that the Hittites when conquering the country of Hatti adjusted themselves to the Hattians adopting their personal names and worshipping their gods, out of reverence for a higher culture” .
Neshili, was probably spoken by the Hatti, not the IE Hittite. Yet, this language is classified as an IE langauge. Researchers maintain that the Hatti spoke 'Hattili' or Khattili “language of the Hatti”, and the IE Hittites spoke "Neshumnili"/ Neshili . Researchers maintain that only 10% of the terms in Neshumnili is IE. This supports the view that Nesumnili may have been a lingua franca. It is clear that the Anatolians spoke many languages including:Palaic, Hatti, Luwian and Hurrian, but the people as you know mainly wrote their writings in Neshumnili.
The first people to use this system as the language of the royal chancery were Hatti Itamar Singer makes it clear that the Hittites adopted the language of the Hatti . Steiner wrote that, " In the complex linguistic situation of Central Anatolia, in the 2nd Millennium B.C. with at least three, but probably more different languages being spoken within the same area there must have been the need for a language of communication or lingua franca [i.e., Neshumnili), whenever commercial transactions or political enterprises were undertaken on a larger scale" .
The language of the Hittites was more than likely a lingua franca, with Hattic, as its base. In Western Anatolia many languages were spoken including Hattic, Palaic, Luwian and Hurrian used Nesa as a lingua franca For example, the king of Arzawa, asked the Egyptian in the Amarna Letters, to write them back in Nesumnili rather than Egyptian .
Steiner notes that “In the complex linguistic situation of Central Anatolia in the 2nd Millennium B.C., with at least three, but probably more different languages being spoken within the same area there must have been the need for a language of communication or lingua franca whenever commercial transaction or political enterprises were undertaken on a larger scale” .
This led Steiner to conclude that “moreover the structure of Hittite easily allowed one to integrate not only proper names, but also nouns of other languages into the morphological system. Indeed, it is a well known fact the vocabulary of Hittite is strongly interspersed with lexemes from other languages, which is a phenomenon typical of a “lingua franca” .
The Persians also ruled the Greeks. The Greeks later conquered India, and Panini mentions Greeks in his grammar of Sanskrit. This suggest that Greeks lived in large numbers in India at this time.The fact that the Greeks, Hindus and Persians lived in intimate contact for hundreds of years naturally led to the adoption of many terms by the Greeks and Hindus of Persian, and later the adoption of many Greek terms by the Hindus. These states of bilingualism in North India, explains why the Indo-Iranian languages form one family , and are linked to the Indo-European languages via Greek.
The Harappans spoke a Dravidian language, Indo-Iranian probably originated after 589 BC. This is made clear by Darius in the Behistun inscription where he claims that he was the first to write in the Ariya language. Darius'- evidence for the first writing of Ariya, indicates that the idea of the continuity of Hindu civilization in India is a myth. The original inhabitants of India spoke Dravidian languages. Over time, the Dravidians were forced to adopt Hindi and other Indo-Iranian languages, yet remnants of these Dravidians in North India remain. This is why we find no evidence of the Vedic language until the Naga (Ethiopians) invented Sanskrit. It also explains the variations in the Vedic and Avestan manuscripts, which in the case of the later group date back only to 1288 AD.
The tradition of writing in North India date to the Achaeminids, and may explain the origin of Brahmi. The fact that Brahmi has signs that relate to the Harappan writing may be the result of the fact that the Elamites of the Achaeminid Empire were familiar with the writing system of the Dravidians, and the Naga (Ethiopians) who used a system of writing similar to Phonesian. The Dravidians have their own tradition of writing. It would appear that the Dravidians introduced writing to the Indus Valley. They continued to use this writing on their pottery in South India and later punchmarked coins. This is supported by the discovery of writing in South India dating back to before 600 BC.
The history of contact between Iranian and Indian speakers during Achaemenid rule , would explain the Indo-Iranian relationship, not the existence of a Proto-Indo-Iranian homeland in India. This history of Turkic, Persian, Sumerian, Elamite, Tamil, Ethiopic (/Naga)and Hindi speaking people living in diverse North Indian communities, is the most logical explanation of the relationships that exist between and among these languages.
The history of linguistic contact between the speakers of these languages make it clear that the Harappans were not Indo-Aryan speakers. This would place the origin of the major Vedic and Avestan text back to maybe 800 BC, and more than likely 600-500 BC not the 1200 BC or earlier date assigned these text by some researchers.
Let's not forget that some researchers claim that most editions of the Aestan, date back to an original copy of this text dating only to 1288 AD.
I have to reject the Afghanistan origin for the Indo-Iranian speaking people because the cultures there in ancient times show no affinity to Indo-European civilization. Given the Austronesian and Dravidian elements in Sanskrit and etc., I would have to date the expansion of the Indo-Aryan people sometime after 800 BC, across Iran, India down into Afghanistan, since the Austronesia people probably did not begin to enter India until after the fall of the Anyang Shang Dynasty sometime after 1000 BC. This would explain why you declare that "the Vedic and Avestan mantras are not carbon copies of each other", they may have had a similar genesis, but they were nativised by different groups of Indic and Iranian speakers after the settlement of nomadic Hurrian and Mitanni people in Iran.
In summary India was not the homeland of the Indo-Iranian family of languages. The linguistic relationship between Persian and Greek result from the rule of these areas by the Achaeminid and later Greek rulers of India. This may explain why the Achaeminids depicted the Nubians (of Africa), the Hindus and King Darius with Africoid features.
The ability to explain the relationship of Sanskrit to Greek, and the Indo-Iranian linguistic relationship due to Persian/Elamite and Hindi contact, resulting from the historical connections between the speakers of these languages and bilingualism within North-India and Afganistan. This hypothesis supports the view that the Indo-European connection to Indian languages goes back to the Greek rule of India, not some hypothetical date millennia ago.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Egmond – It appears that you are getting quite serious about research, nice post!
The thing that came to my mind while reading Madison Grant’s paper was how strange it is that people with such different overall views, could agree on the same basic facts. What I mean by that; is that Marc posted an article from “Stormfront” (the racist forum), some time ago, where they also acknowledge that Whites are NOT indigenous to Europe, but rather Invaders from the Asian steppes. How strange that known White racist such as they and Grant, and Black researchers could agree that what is fact is indeed fact.
Contrast that, with our local ignoramuses and denizens of the board like Knowledgeiskey718, rasol, Djehuti, and the would-be scientist that they quote; which would have to include those mentioned in my post above, who were supposedly of high quality, but yet until now, were pushing the same lie. And one has to wonder, what the hell is going on. The data and evidence has been clear from the start that Whites were NOT native to Europe, yet these people have spent many-many years and unknown money trying to prove that they were. Stranger still is the timeframe; the old scientist knew and acknowledged that Whites were not native to Europe, but yet the later ones tried to prove the opposite. I can’t help but wonder if these efforts were prompted by the rise of Black Nationalism in Africa; and the civil rights movement in the U.S.
Then again, it could just be a matter of basic human nature; just as Blacks are reluctant to investigate the thing that most affects them, namely racism – other than to superficially say, “they be mean to us because we be Black”. Perhaps Whites are reluctant to investigate their true past, and justifiably so, because they are afraid of what they will find – that is that rather than being superior, they were in fact, in past time, inferior. Ironically Blacks would find the opposite.
The real fun will begin in the years ahead; All of the White nations, as well as the ignorant and gullible non-White nations, have produced textbooks that taught them that Whites came from Europe. How funny it will be to see them now say; no, no, we were wrong, we are really Asians!
As to the premise of using language to trace genetic movement: I find myself agreeing with both Diop and Grant. Diop; because the overall age, stability, and homogeneity of African populations, will allow it. And Grant because as he correctly alludes to, the LACK of overall age, stability, and homogeneity of European populations will NOT allow it.
BTW – I took no small pleasure in seeing Wells come around to my personal timeframe for the beginnings of White expansion. Thought he doesn’t say when they actually reached Europe’s borders, it can’t be that far off from my own calculation of 1,500 – 1,200 B.C.
Madison Grant (November 19, 1865 – May 30, 1937) was an American lawyer, known primarily for his work as a eugenicist and conservationist. As a eugenicist, Grant was responsible for one of the most famous works of scientific racism, and played an active role in crafting strong immigration restriction and anti-miscegenation laws in the United States. As a conservationist, Grant was credited with the saving of many different species of animals, founding many different environmental and philanthropic organizations, and developing much of the discipline of wildlife management.
Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention.[2] Throughout history, eugenics has been regarded by its various advocates as a social responsibility, an enlightened stance of a society, meant to create healthier, stronger and/or more intelligent people, to save resources, and lessen human suffering. Earlier proposed means of achieving these goals focused on selective breeding, while modern ones focus on prenatal testing, genetic counseling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering. Opponents argue that eugenics is a temptation to the power hungry and is thus notably subject to corruption. Historically, some eugenics advocates have used it as a justification for state-sponsored discrimination, forced sterilization of persons deemed genetically defective, the killing of institutionalized populations, and genocide, such as during the Holocaust.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ OR, Eugenic programs can be utilized as a means to CORRECT major hereditary genetic (somatic mutations) defects in the initiating sponsor with birth control of dominating genetics being a secondary mission.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Clyde - As usual, I got what I asked for, and more, thank you.
You touched on the Hittite thing, that has always been a sore spot for me, because I still have not found any evidence for a Hittite Empire. As I have said, there might have been a White tribe that immigrated there, but nothing like a major force, and certainly not any kind of an Empire. I bring that up because the history revising a-holes quoted above, are still clinging to the myth of a Hittite Empire in order to claim early White participation in the goings-on of the civilized world, when there clearly was none.
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: ^ OR, Eugenic programs can be utilized as a means to CORRECT major hereditary genetic (somatic mutations) defects in the initiating sponsor with birth control of dominating genetics being a secondary mission.
meninarmer: Is there a particular program that you have in mind?
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Clyde - It seems that you have been brushing up on the Indus Valley civilization. Have you written a paper, or will you write a paper on it? I admit that I haven't done anything lately with it, so if you have a paper, please post it.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ A particular program for what, Mike? There are mnay programs for both.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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^ Sickle Cell is one of MANY genetic disorders afflicting one particular group more then others. This particular group has the highest incident rate of a large group of genetic defects, very likely due to admixtures amongst almost every major group on earth. Interestingly, Human genetics research originates via this same group.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - It seems that you have been brushing up on the Indus Valley civilization. Have you written a paper, or will you write a paper on it? I admit that I haven't done anything lately with it, so if you have a paper, please post it.
Yes I have written extensively on the Indus Valley civilization. I deciphered the Harappan writing back in the 1980's since I deciphered this writing system I have published many articles on the language, religion and civilization. I also published a dictionary of the Harappan signs.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "The Unity of African and Indian Agriculture", Journal of African Civilization 3, no1 (1981a),page 103.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Are Dravidians of African Origin", P.Second ISAS,1980,( Hong Kong:Asian Research Service, 1981b) pages 789- 807.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "The Harappan script Deciphered:Proto- Dravidian Writing of the Indus Valley", P Third ISAS, 1981,(Hong Kong:Asian Research Service, 1982b) pages 925- 936.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "The Indus Valley Writing is Proto- Dravidian",Journal of Tamil Studies , no 25 (June 1984a), pp.50-64.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Inspiration of the Harappan Talismanic Seals", Tamil Civilization 2, no1 (March 1984d), pages 1-8.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Harappan Writing of the Copper Tablets", Journal of Indian History LXll, nos.1-3 (1984), pages 1-5.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians ,Manding and Sumerians", Tamil Civilization 3, no1 (March 1985a) ,pages 1-9.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC", India Past and Present 2, no1 ( 1985b), pages 13-19.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Review of Dr. Asko Parpolas' "The Coming of the Aryans". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18, no2 (1989) , pages 98-127.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Dravido Harappan Colonization of Central Asia", Central Asiatic Journal 34, no1-2 (1990), pages 120-144.
_______________.(2000). Proto-Dravidian agricultural terms. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 30 (1), 23-28.
_________.(1994b). The Dravidian and African laguages, International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 23 (1), 34-52.
_________.(1994c). Ancient Dravidian: And introductory grammar of Harappan with Vocabularies , Journal Tamil Studies, No.41, 1-21.
_________.(1995a). Ancient Dravidian:The Harappan signs, Journal Tamil Studies, No.42, 1-23.
__________.(1995b). Ancient Dravidian: Harappan Grammar/Dictionary, Journal Tamil Studies, No.43-44, 59-130.
You will find some of my articles at the following site:
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If anyone had any doubt that all of this craziness is truly coming from a computer in a mental institution all they have to do is read this thread.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Some people are using genetic markers to discuss this issue
^ virtually all modern scholars of history embrace genetics, including linguists, as genetics is your history carried in your blood.
this is the essence of genealogy.
quote:but genes can tell us very little about th European expansion because much of the population genetics use statistical analysis to determine rates and direction of European expansion across Europe because there is little craniometric data for Europeans
^ the above run-on sentence is a nonsense paragraph.
It's like saying "bones tell you little about dinosaurs, because there is no written text from dinosaurs."
You're very smart, and only write nonsense sentences when you are toying with people whom you think of as less intelligent than you - ie Mike111.
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rasol, You cannot convince these people of anything. The base educational level is so low you have no place to start. In your case there may be a spark of brain activity but it is crippled by ideology that no rational conversation is possible,
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Professor H writes: rasol, You cannot convince these people of anything
^ the purpose of conversation is to share, not to 'convince'.
quote: crippled by ideology
^ this describes you, and your ideology driven purpose for being here. which is why you don't understand the purposes of conversation, nor can you engage in one.
you never contributed anything of intelligence in years of posting on this forum and never will.
you're a failure, and a bore. now, go away again and spare yourself more 'racial frustration'.
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rasol - I know that I probably shouldn’t do this (that is, direct a sensible question to you), but it’s been so long since I have had an opportunity to enjoy your lunacy; hell, I’m going to do it!
Rasol here is the question; ready? Exactly what is it that you are disputing from the posts above? I would ask the same of the Texan – but you’re right, he is a total idiot, whereas you, thought certainly world-class, might be a little less than a total idiot.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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rasol, before you can have a conversation a few things must take place. For one thing you have to have at least a minimal level of education. The majority of people on this board do not even grasp the concepts taught in the 10th grade on the development of Western Civilization. You could find about the same level of understanding if you visited a meeting of the 'Flat Earth Society.' A logic prof would have a field day here reading all the absurd constructs that violate every logical formula they teach. Past that you run into the black politics nuts. These people see the world in terms of the poor down trodden black man who has had his heritage stolen by the evil white europeans. Most of these crack pots who squeal about "eurocentrics" speak a western language, live in a western country or a country that was westernized a century ago. They drive cars produced by western industrial and technological inovations. They watch movies and TV shows produced with western money and innovations. They see themseleves as a victim and blame everyone except themselves for their problems. History? There is no history talked about here.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Exactly what is it that you are disputing from the posts above?
I'm disputing this statement by Winters:
quote:genes can tell us very little about th European expansion because much of the population genetics use statistical analysis to determine rates and direction of European expansion across Europe because there is little craniometric data for Europeans.
^ Feel free to unravel his run on sentence, and make sense of it, if you can.
quote:thought certainly world-class, might be a little less than a total idiot.
^ Wow,, based on this, it seems you have *world class* *thought* formation problems, of your own. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: rasol, before you can have a conversation a few things must take place. For one thing you have to have at least a minimal level of education.
This is a given, your redundant post is irrelevant though, to actual educated posters. Since you don't present yourself as an educated poster at all.
quote: The majority of people on this board do not even grasp the concepts taught in the 10th grade on the development of Western Civilization.
Not at all. I'd say it's a minority, and this minority is the only people on this board that you can match intelligence with.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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rasol quote - I'm disputing this statement by Winters:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- genes can tell us very little about th European expansion because much of the population genetics use statistical analysis to determine rates and direction of European expansion across Europe because there is little craniometric data for Europeans. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ Feel free to unravel his run on sentence, and make sense of it, if you can.
Since Clyde doesn’t seem to be up yet; and you did ask me; I will give it a go.
I think that what he is saying is that many researchers have tried to use statistical analysis of crania to determine time and rate of White expansion in Europe. But have failed in this endeavor because of the lack of certifiably “White” ancient crania.
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TheAmericanPatriot: Quote – “These people see the world in terms of the poor down trodden black man who has had his heritage stolen by the evil white europeans. Most of these crack pots who squeal about "eurocentrics" speak a western language, live in a western country or a country that was westernized a century ago. They drive cars produced by western industrial and technological inovations. They watch movies and TV shows produced with western money and innovations. They see themseleves as a victim and blame everyone except themselves for their problems.
So TheAmericanPatriot, let’s see if I got this right: You invade our lands, kill us, steal our technology, then enslave us. To secure that which you had taken by racial conspiracy, you undertook to organize the world, which you now controlled, around a racial and religious hierarchy (the religion being stolen also).
And now you call us ungrateful for not showing proper gratitude for being allowed to use the resultant technologies of the technologies that you stole from us, and living on the land that you also stole from us. Well: I do declare; nobody ever accused the White man of not having Gall.
But has it ever occurred to you, that every piece of ground that your people occupy, and every piece of food that comes from that ground, is the result of the murder of innocents who in all likelihood, greeted you with compassion and brotherhood?
It was you; in you pathetic fear, who used race as a vehicle for conquest, knowing that individually you could not compete with the other peoples of the world. And now that the other peoples of the world have adopted "Your" strategy of race based alliances against you, you have the unmitigated gall to cry foul, well like I said, White people sure have gall. Of course from the start, this race-based thing was pure foolishness, as the minority race in the world, common sense should have told you that it was not a good idea.
But you are right about one thing; there are far too many, who have fallen in love with the concept of victim-hood. They see the White man as the cause of all of their problems, and use his villainy as an excuse for not tending to their own business. We call them Negroes; Black people don’t have much use for them either.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: rasol quote - I'm disputing this statement by Winters:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- genes can tell us very little about th European expansion because much of the population genetics use statistical analysis to determine rates and direction of European expansion across Europe because there is little craniometric data for Europeans. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ Feel free to unravel his run on sentence, and make sense of it, if you can.
Since Clyde doesn’t seem to be up yet; and you did ask me; I will give it a go.
I think that what he is saying is that many researchers have tried to use statistical analysis of crania to determine time and rate of White expansion in Europe. But have failed in this endeavor because of the lack of certifiably “White” ancient crania.
Hi Mike I rarely respond to rasol because he dosen't really say anything interesting.
What I am talking about is this. Genetists make statistical models which they use to date this or that time period for the origin of a particular haplogroup or haplotype.
The dates for these events can not be relied upon because they don't have collaborative evidence to support their conclusion i.e., actual molecular material dating back to the suggested date of origin. This makes many of their conclusions unverifiable. You accept this or that date for a particular gene based on statistics. It ludicris to base history solely on the fact you accept this or that statistical model when we have skeletons dating back to these periods with recoverable DNA. Statistic scientists could use to confirm that this or that gene really existed in human populations when they claim it existed.
In no other science, would this be justified. To make a hypothesis you have to be able to test it. Since we have not found many of the alleged genes in skeletons dating back to the origin of the alleged genes, from which we could extract genetic material to confirm that people at this or that time really carried this or that gene makes the dating of this or that haplogroup or haplotype pure conjecture.
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Clyde - I see what you mean. If you will recall, I ran into the same difficulty when investigating Paleo-American gene studies. Seems that rather than use the Y DNA which is very straight forward and unlimited in timeframe, they preferred to use MtDNA which is limited over time and ultimately becomes useless.
Naturally we all understand the reason for this strange behavior. Just Like the White people in Europe, they want desperately to cover-up the fact of Black origins in America. And just like the Whites in Europe - they will fail.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: I ran into the same difficulty when investigating Paleo-American gene studies. Seems that rather than use the Y DNA which is very straight forward and unlimited in timeframe, they preferred to use MtDNA which is limited over time and ultimately becomes useless.
Ignorance is bliss.....I guess....
quote:Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas Stephen L. Zegura 1, Tatiana M. Karafet 2, Lev A. Zhivotovsky 3, and Michael F. Hammer 4*
A total of 63 binary polymorphisms and 10 STRs were genotyped on a sample of 2,344 Y chromosomes from 18 Native American, 28 Asian, and 5 European populations to investigate the origin(s) of Native American paternal lineages. All three of Greenberg's major linguistic divisions (including 342 Amerind speakers, 186 Na-Dene speakers, and 60 Aleut-Eskimo speakers) were represented in our sample of 588 Native Americans. SNP analysis indicated that three major haplogroups, denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early Native American founding Y-chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent admixture with Europeans. Although different phylogeographic and STR diversity patterns for the two major founding haplogroups previously led to the inference that they were carried from Asia to the Americas separately, the hypothesis of a single migration of a polymorphic founding population better fits our expanded database. Phylogenetic analyses of STR variation within haplogroups C and Q traced both lineages to a probable ancestral homeland in the vicinity of the Altai Mountains in Southwest Siberia. Divergence dates between the Altai plus North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged from 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early entry into the Americas.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Knowledgeless one - Are you the same person who has in the past, used almost all of his previous 1848 posts to loudly proclaim that Whites turned White in Europe, and supported that claim with ambiguous studies which you didn't really understand anyway??
And now at a time when even the idiots doing those Bull Sh!t studies have thrown in the towel for White origins in Europe: you now continue to spew the MUCK of these people about the origins of original Americans! Silly boy.
Here are a few points for you: The abstract don't say who the participants were: creditable studies would.
96% were Asian and White: creditable studies would say who the other 4% were - take a wild guess.
Their participants were acknowledged late-comers: we are interested in the ORIGINAL PEOPLE of the Americas!!!
(In case you don't understand why I say that; note the sentence above: quote - "Divergence dates between the Altai plus North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged from 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early entry into the Americas").
Note; Precluding means it couldn't be so.
BTW - If you spent as much time trying to track down non-racist and creditable material, as you do the crap, you might be able to make a worthwhile contribution to the board.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: (In case you don't understand why I say that; heir participants were acknowledged late-comers: we are interested in the ORIGINAL PEOPLE of the Americas!!!
Well you and your strawmen arguments never fail, of course you're interested in something that just isn't there(or you have yet to provide). Since you say they should be original people of the Americas, then **you** should provide this data since it's you saying these modern Native Americans are not representative, yet there is no DNA that supports any other haplogroups in early America. Maybe you should try reading.... These are original Native American populations, C and Q represent the founding Y chromosomes of the Americas, where is your evidence to disprove it? Btw...I don't want to hear your semantics!!!
SNP analysis indicated that three major haplogroups, denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early Native American founding Y-chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent admixture with Europeans.
note the sentence above: quote - "Divergence dates between the Altai plus North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged from 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early entry into the Americas").
quote: Note; Precluding means it couldn't be so.
What couldn't be so mr. semantic strawman?? That the ancestors of Altai and Native Americans diverged 10-17kya? Do tell how this is not possible?
The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Recently, the mtDNA studies have shown that both northern and southern Altaians exhibit all four Asian and American Indian–specific haplogroups (A–D) with frequencies of 57.2% (Sukernik et al. 1996) and 46.8% (Derenko et al. 2000a), respectively, exceeding those reported previously for Mongolians, Chinese, and Tibetans. Therefore, they may represent the populations which are most closely related to New World indigenous groups. Since the detection of all four haplogroups (A–D) in an Asian population is thought to be a first criterion in the identification of a possible New World founder, the candidate source population for American Indian mtDNA haplotypes therefore may include the populations originating in the regions to the southwest and southeast of Lake Baikal, including the Altai Mountain region (Derenko et al. 2000b). The presence of X mtDNAs in Altaians is generally consonant with the latter conclusion.
Because the location and identification of the population that was the source of the founding lineages for the New World is a question of considerable interest, several studies on Y-chromosomal DNA polymorphism were performed recently to investigate Pleistocene male migrations to the American continent (Underhill et al. 1996; Lell et al. 1997; Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999). It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999). Similarly, based on a comprehensive analysis of worldwide Y-chromosome variation, it has been proposed that populations occupying the general area including Lake Baikal (eastward to the Trans-Baikal and southward into Northern Mongolia), the Lena River headwaters, the Angara and Yenisey River basins, the Altai Mountain foothills, and the region south of the Sayan Mountains (including Tuva and western Mongolia) was the source for dispersals of New World Y-chromosome founders (Karafet et al. 1999). It is obvious that we have now the genetic evidence that will allow closer determination of which Siberian population was the source of the population expansion leading to modern American Indians and will allow relation of the studies of migrations from Siberia to the Americas that are based on paternally inherited genetic systems with those based on maternally inherited ones. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The dates for these events can not be relied upon because they don't have collaborative evidence to support their conclusion i.e., actual molecular material dating back to the suggested date of origin. This makes many of their conclusions unverifiable. You accept this or that date for a particular gene based on statistics. It ludicris to base history solely on the fact you accept this or that statistical model when we have skeletons dating back to these periods with recoverable DNA. Statistic scientists could use to confirm that this or that gene really existed in human populations when they claim it existed.
This is exactly why I will always refer to white (and lackey) presentation of population studies backed by statistical genetic tracing as no more than, pseudo-science. IMHO, it has as much validity as the art of judging of the influences of the stars upon human affairs, Astrology.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Well you and your strawmen arguments never fail, of course you're interested in something that just isn't there(or you have yet to provide). Since you say they should be original people of the Americas, then **you** should provide this data since it's you saying these modern Native Americans are not representative, yet there is no DNA that supports any other haplogroups in early America. Maybe you should try reading.... These are original Native American populations, C and Q represent the founding Y chromosomes of the Americas, where is your evidence to disprove it? Btw...I don't want to hear your semantics!!!
Oh please clueless you're one to talk. Wasn't it you who said that early Asians (blacks) are properly represented by modern day Chinese? Or maybe the early European settlers looked like those guys. How's that for your racial divergence theory.
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Knowledgeless one - I deserved that; I new fully well that to try to engage you in intelligent discourse was a fools errand; but yet I tried. Silly me.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:This is exactly why I will always refer to white (and lackey) presentation of population studies backed by statistical genetic tracing as no more than, pseudo-science.
Actually you try to attack science based on the logical fallacy of appeal to race [ism] because you don't understand science.
The rest is just your attempt to lie to yourself to cover for your ignorance.
The proof of this fact is in that you present -NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY- regardless of the 'race' of the scientists.
You prefer to stink your mind with with pseudo scientific garbage from unserious-"sources" instead, which accomplishes nothing other than to keep you weak [of mind] and stupid.
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^ Actually, with an superior understanding of science, it becomes intolerable to observe others present inconclusive theories based on partial declarations and pseudo-scientific methodologies. Some, such as yourself are able to accept, for whatever reasons (future employer) a white persons' proposed "suggestions" as proven and validated fact, when it is anything but opinion.
Understanding the history of the presenter. I require more detailed release of sample & test data prior to happily embracing it as gospel as you and your side kick, KIK, seem to have no problem supporting.
So far, all data I've presented, and what you deem unscientific, was all generated and reported via the most major medical research institutions in the world. On top of their credentials, are data has not only been validated, but also replicated using true scientific methods. Go figure.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:So far, all data I've presented, and what you deem unscientific,
.....doesn't even agree with your premise that Europeans are albinos from Africa who migrated to get away from the sun, or due to skin cancer levels whites are not indigenous to Europe....None absolutely none at all support any of the above notions, yet you still act is if they do. Go figure...
All the while repetitively mentioning the Inuit. The Inuits who actually debunk you, since they are a clear example of a cold adapted population living in harsh cold environments and still retain melanin due to a rich Vitamin D intake. Which is scientific fact, not pseudo mumble jumbo that you present. Or the fact that Europeans are able to produce vitamin D through synthesis of UV under darker skies(which is why Europeans turned pale) which albinos can't, these are scientific facts, something you have trouble comprehending.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Actually, with an superior understanding of science
^ Feel free to back this up right now.
- > either present the work of scientists who can confirm any of your sillyness, or...
- > present your own scientific work, complete with data, methodology and results.
^ i look forward to...well, nothing from you, but gusts of wind, as usual.
My validated and confirming data sources; Note that none of these sources use the disclaimers,; Suggested, Proposed, Assumed, or imagine as is true in the pseudo-science cut and pasted reports you, KIK, and DJ present. These contain REAL data with all raw data if required.
The Arizona Cancer Center
RPE meets EPR Studies shed light on role of melanin in preventing macular degeneration Elzbieta Gasyna, Yasuhiro Kobori and Kasra Rezaei The University of Chicago Medical Center
Skin pigmentation keratinocytes are not the only cells in the epidermis. Dr. John Gray, Procter & Gamble Research Centre
The Regulation of Skin Pigmentation* Yuji Yamaguchi, Michaela Brenner, and Vincent J. Hearing Laboratory of Cell Biology, NCI, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892 and Department of Dermatology, Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka 565-0871, Japan
Mitf from neural crest to melanoma: signal transduction and transcription in the melanocyte lineage Colin R. Goding, Marie Curie Research Institute
UV-induced DNA damage and melanin content in human skin differing in racial/ethnic origin Taketsugu Tadokoro, Nobuhiko Kobayashi, Barbara Z. Zmudzka, Shosuke Ito, Kazumasa Wakamatsu, Yuji Yamaguchi, Katalin S. Korossy, Sharon A. Miller, Janusz Z. Beer, and Vincent J. Hearing Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2009 Jan 2;378
Comparing Melanoma of the Skin by Race and Ethnicity The rate of people getting melanoma of the skin or dying from melanoma of the skin varies by race and ethnicity. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 1600 Clifton Rd, Atlanta, GA 30333, U.S.A.
The Pathogenesis of Melanoma Induced by Ultraviolet Radiation B. A. Gilchrest, M. S. Eller, A. C. Geller, and M. Yaar - 29 Apr, 1999 The New England Journal of Medicine
Ultraviolet radiation: global solar UV index INTERSUN, the Global UV project, is a collaborative project between WHO, UNEP, WMO, the International Agency on Cancer Research (IARC) and ICNIRP
European Code Against Cancer and scientific justification: third version (2003) P. Boyle1,+, P. Autier2, H. Bartelink3, J. Baselga4, P. Boffetta5, J. Burn6, H. J. G. Burns7, L. Christensen8, L. Denis9, M. Dicato10, V. Diehl11, R. Doll12, S. Franceschi13, C. R. Gillis14, N. Gray15, L. Griciute16, A. Hackshaw17, M. Kasler18, M. Kogevinas19, S. Kvinnsland20, C. La Vecchia21, F. Levi22, J. G. McVie23, P. Maisonneuve24, J. M. Martin-Moreno25, J. Newton Bishop26, F. Oleari27, P. Perrin28, M. Quinn29, M. Richards30, U. Ringborg31, C. Scully32, E. Siracka33, H. Storm34, M. Tubiana35, T. Tursz36, U. Veronesi37, N. Wald38, W. Weber39, D. G. Zaridze40, W. Zatonski41 and H. zur Hausen42
1 Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 2 Centre for Research on Epidemiology and Health Information Systems (CRESIS), Centre de Recherche Public de la Santé, Luxembourg; 3 Professor and Chairman, Radiotherapy Department, The Netherlands Cancer Institute, Antoni van Leeuwenhoek Huis, Amsterdam, The Netherlands; 4 Medical Oncology Service, Vall d"Hebron University Hospital, Vall d"Hebron, Barcelona, Spain; 5 Chief, Unit of Environmental Cancer Epidemiology, International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France; 6 Cancer Family Network, CancerResearchUK, University of Newcastle, Newcastle, UK; 7 Chief Administrative Medical Officer, Greater Glasgow Health Board, Glasgow, UK; 8 President, The Association of European Cancer Leagues, Oslo, Norway; 9 Oncology Centre Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium; 10 Hematology-Oncology, Centre Hospitalier, Luxembourg; 11 Med. Klinic 1, Universitat zu Koln, Koln, Germany; 12 Clinical Trial Service Unit, Cancer Research UK Cancer Studies Unit, Radcliffe Infirmary, Oxford, UK; 13 Chief, Field and Intervention Studies Unit, IARC, Lyon, France; 14 Scientific Coordinator, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 15 Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 16 Lithuanian Oncology Center, Vilnius, Lithuania; 17 Deputy Director, Cancer Research UK & UCL Cancer Trials Centre, Stephenson House, London, UK; 18 Director, National Institute of Oncology, Budapest, Hungary; 19 Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Institut Municipal d’Investigacio Mèdica (IMIM), Barcelona, Spain; 20 Department of Oncology, Haukaland Hospital, Bergen, Norway; 21 Istituto di Ricerche Farmacologiche Mario Negri, Milan, Italy; 22 Director, Registre Vaudois des Tumeurs, Institut Universitaire de Médecine Sociale et Préventive, Lausanne, Switzerland; 23 Scientific Coordinator, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 24 Unit of Clinical Epidemiology, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 25 Director-General of Public Health, Ministerio de Sanidad y Consumo, Madrid, Spain; 26 Genetic Epidemiology Division, Cancer Research UK, St James’s University Hospital, Leeds, UK; 27 Ministero della Sanita’, Roma, Italy; 28 Chairman, Department of Urology, Hopital de l’Antiquaille, Lyon, France; 29 Director, National Cancer Intelligence Centre, Office for National Statistics, B6/02, 1 Drummond Gate, London, UK; 30 National Cancer Director, St Thomas’ Hospital, London, UK; 31 Department of Oncology, Radiumhemmet, Karolinska Hospital, Stockholm; 32 Dean and Director of Studies and Research, Eastman Dental Institute for Oral Health Care Sciences and International Centres for Excellence in Dentistry, University of London, Eastman Dental Institute, London, UK; 33 President, Liga proti rakovine SR, Bratislava, Slovakia; 34 Danish Cancer Society, Director Cancer Prevention and Documentation, Copenhagen, Denmark; 35 President du Centre Antoine Beclere, Centre Antoine Beclere, Faculte’ de Medicine, Paris, France; 36 Director, Institut Gustave Roussy, Villejuif, France; 37 Scientific Director, European Institute of Oncology, Milan, Italy; 38 The Medical College of St Bartholomew’s Hospital, Wolfson Institute of Preventive Medicine, Department of Epidemiology, London, UK; 39 Schweizerische Krebsliga, Berne, Switzerland; 40 Director, Institute of Carcinogenesis, Deputy Director, Cancer Research Centre RAMS, Moscow, Russian Federation; 41 Department of Cancer Epidemiology and Prevention, The Marie-Sklodowska Memorial, Cancer Center and Institute of Oncology, Warsaw, Poland; 42 Director, German Cancer Research Center (DKFZ), Heidelberg, Germany
Received 28 April 2003; accepted 7 May 2003
Albinism:Causes Mayo Skin Cancer Clinical Research 1998-2008 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER)
Melanin Pathway to Albinism Richard A. King, M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Medicine and in the Institute of Human Genetics at the University of Minnesota, has conducted research on albinism for more than fifteen years, and coordinates the International Albinism Center.
C. Gail Summers, M.D., Associate Professor of Ophthalmology at the University of Minnesota. James W. Haefemeyer, M.D., M.S.,practice physician in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Bonnie S. LeRoy, M.S., is a Genetic Counselor at the University of Minnesota. National Organization of Albinism and Hypopigmentation
NEUROGENETICS The Online Metabolic & Molecular Bases Of Inherited Disease Henry J. Knott Professor and Director, McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland Henry and Emma Meyer Professor and Chair, Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, Professor, Departments of Pediatrics and Molecular and Cellular Biology Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas Kenneth W. Kinzler, Ph.D. Professor of Oncology The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland
Pigment Cell & Melanoma Research Official journal of The International Federation of Pigment Cell Societies (IFPCS) and the Society for Melanoma Research.
The physical and chemical properties of eumelanin Paul Meredith and Tadeusz Sarna Soft Condensed Matter Physics Group, School of Physical Sciences, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia Department of Biophysics, Faculty of Biochemistry, Biophysics and Biotechnology, Jagiellonian University, Krakow, Polan
Mutations of the P gene Associated with OCA2 International Albinism Center, University Of Minnesota
Albinism in Africa as a public health issue Esther S Hong, Hajo Zeeb2 email and Michael H Repacholi World Health Organization, Department of Protection of the Human Environment, Geneva, Switzerland and University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), School of Medicine, San Francisco, CA, USA
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
^ straight from the Clyde Winters school of bibilographic spam - pawned off as support for your nonsense.
Not what I asked for, sorry.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: .....doesn't even agree with your premise that Europeans are albinos from Africa who migrated to get away from the sun, or due to skin cancer levels whites are not indigenous to Europe....None absolutely none at all support any of the above notions, yet you still act is if they do. Go figure...
^ the only question i have about mn is this.
is he just a liar, clowning for his own amusement?
or is he a self deluding fool, who is oblivious to the total lack of support in the scientific community for any of his claims?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I think it's the former, as one can't possibly be that stupid, not to notice, that not one scientist support his notions, not his albinism reports nada, zilch. So it's definitely for his own amusement or to save face since he's been proven wrong after proclaiming himself to be a knowledgeable individual with a "superior understanding of science", he has been forced into spamming in attempts to distract from this devastating fact that he's not so knowledgeable after all.
Ignorance is blissful huh minibrainer?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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THE LAZ PEOPLE from the Black Sea Region of Turkey
Clyde’s article reminded me of my trip to this region where the Turks are all blond and blue eyed. Then they behaved, just as I read in a travel guide, that they would quietly come out and surround you, as an outsider, watching you as a group without saying a word. In Turkey they are considered great entrepreneurs and my older travel guide says that they control the whole pastry and restaurant business in Istanbul. I'm puzzled and sorry that google did not provide more pictures.
So the Laz people might be proto-White Europeans? Turkey is in the NAVO and wants to be a member of the EU as well. But there are constant objections.
Then I remember something about the Finnish language and Turkish belonging to the Altaï language family. Altaï is a region in Mongolia or someplace in the middle of Asia, as far as I know.
Perhaps the people who are in favour of Turkey joining the EU do so because they consider Turks fellow White’s.
Van Sertima wrote about Egyptian tin-colonies in Spain in that African Journal.
I remember a National Geographic documentary about Nazi-scientist going into Tibet to measure up skulls and look at eye-colour of modern Tibetans. Did not pay much attention though. But the nazi's were at it long ago. Perhaps them being nazi's the whole thing was declared a taboo. Just as talking about the blackness of the European old nobility is considered a taboo by some.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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Egmond, I thought that you might enjoy this. As you can see, Van Sertima had to contend with Knowledgeiskey718, rasol, Djehuti, and TheAmericanPatriot, too. Only there, they went by different names. But the intent was the same, overwhelm truth with a barrage of Bullsh!t. It didn't have to make sense, just as long as there was a never ending stream of it. "Olmec heads only superficially appear to be African" Only a person or persons completely devoid of personal honor would make such a statement. When you say such an obvious lie, everybody knows that you are a liar.
Van Sertima has been criticized by academics. A lengthy 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology article states that Van Sertima has ignored the work of Central American researchers who stated they found no evidence of an African influence or presence in the New World. The reviewers also wrote that Olmec heads only superficially appear to be African. In addition, they accuse Van Sertima's cultural outlook of being disparaging to Native American achievements. In a New York Times review of Van Sertima works, British scholar Glyn Daniel called Van Sertima's work "ignorant rubbish”, concluding that the writings of Van Sertima (and Barry Fell, who he was also reviewing) “give us badly argued theories based on fantasies.”[2]. Van Sertima has sparred with some of his critics but he declined to respond to the 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology criticism.[3]
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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meninarmer - have you investigated "Vitiligo" as a possible cause of White people? It is a disorder in which pigment-making cells are destroyed. White patches appear on different parts of the body, tissues in the mouth and nose, and the retina. "There is no cause, there is no cure, and it's very random. A person could turn all the way white or mostly white."Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ Yes. So far I've reviewed Vitiligo, (recently made famous by Michael Jackson), Leprosy, and Albinism. Of the three, Albinism is the most prolific in Africa.
There is not much known about Vitiligo medically, except that it appears to be a subset of Albinism displaying less severe symptoms. It is suggested it occurs when skin melanocytes auto-destruct. One theory suggests Vitiligo is an autoimmune disease where proteins called cytokines that alter their pigment-producing cells and cause these cells to die.
Differences between Albinism and Vitiligo are;
*Albinism is autosomal recessive *Vitiligo is an autoimmune disease *Vitiligo may occur later in life, 6-40 years *Vitiligo may only affect patches of the skin and hair.
Europeans are definitely derived from Africans suffering full or partial Albinism...unless of course, you believe they mutated extreme white in Europe due to poor nutrition. It is unclear if exactly how or if Vitiligo is related to Albinism.
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Being outraged at the degenerate liars that Van Sertima had to content with; I will demonstrate their depravity.
Van Sertima has been criticized by academics. A lengthy 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology article states that Van Sertima has ignored the work of Central American researchers who stated they found no evidence of an African influence or presence in the New World. The reviewers also wrote that Olmec heads only superficially appear to be African. In addition, they accuse Van Sertima's cultural outlook of being disparaging to Native American achievements.
In a New York Times review of Van Sertima works, British scholar Glyn Daniel called Van Sertima's work "ignorant rubbish”, concluding that the writings of Van Sertima (and Barry Fell, who he was also reviewing) “give us badly argued theories based on fantasies.”. Van Sertima has sparred with some of his critics but he declined to respond to the 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology criticism.
THESE ARE STATUES AND STELE LONG AGO FOUND IN CENTRAL AMERICA.
Lesson to be learned; White people, whether they be European, Australian, North American, or Central/South American, they are liars of the most bare-faced kind! It is very much a racial thing, they just can't help themselves. If it frightens them, they either try to kill it, or they lie and say that it doesn't exist.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Egmond - Turks ARE Whites. The brown-skinned ones that you see, are hybrids of original Turks and the various Black peoples conquered by the Turks with the Arabs, and then the Turkish Ottoman Empire. i.e. Berbers, Egyptians, Arabs, Persians, etc.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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