quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^Sure was a lot of color in those two lines - and that's only what they admit to. And through them, most of the royal houses in Europe. LMAO!
A lot of color where? Alessandro was the only Medici with direct African ancestry.
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From page above - Cosimo di Giovanni de' Medici (the elder’s) son Piero 'the Gouty' In 1444 married Lucrezia Tornabuoni.
Her brother, Giovanni Tornabuoni was one of the wealthiest and most influential men in Florence. In the family chapel in Santa Maria Novella, Giovanni appears with his wife (not shown) Francesca Pitti.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: From page above - Cosimo di Giovanni de' Medici (the elder’s) son Piero 'the Gouty' In 1444 married Lucrezia Tornabuoni.
Her brother, Giovanni Tornabuoni was one of the wealthiest and most influential men in Florence. In the family chapel in Santa Maria Novella, Giovanni appears with his wife (not shown) Francesca Pitti.
Giovanni Tornabuoni
Their father was Francesco di Simone TORNABUONI.
He was Curly haired (the picture wouldn't post)
Their Mother was Marianna GUICCIARDINI
(No picture)
This is a mask of POZZOLI FABRIZIO I GUICCIARDINI
Here is a close up of that painting Mike. He was white:
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All this stuff about white Europeans in Renaissance art being blacks is ludicrous.
Yes there were images of black royalty in Europe from prior to and including the Renaissance in Europe. Most were from Spain and most of those were either destroyed or are in private collections. But they exist and you don't need to try and claim white Renaissance Europeans as blacks when they weren't.
The "key" here if you want to call it that, is that much of the black presence in Southern Europe was destroyed by the rise of the Western Christian powers. Even though Asia, the Levant and Africa had a tremendous influence on the development of Medieval European culture, most of that history has been destroyed or lost and only fragments of it survive.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: All this stuff about white Europeans in Renaissance art being blacks is ludicrous
If you want to argue this fine. But it is disingenuous to argue that the Black Madonnas in Europe are a result of "pollution or fungal decomposition", wouldn't you agree?
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Doug - I can't help but wonder why you would think yourself more expert in this than me. But in any event, the people below are self professed Black. Given time, I am sure that I could find a match for Giovanni Tornabuoni.
Cab Calloway (1907 -1994) American jazz musician, band leader. writer of the song 'Reeferman'
Adolph Caesar (December 5, 1933 – March 6, 1986) was an American actor.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: All this stuff about white Europeans in Renaissance art being blacks is ludicrous
If you want to argue this fine. But it is disingenuous to argue that the Black Madonnas in Europe are a result of "pollution or fungal decomposition", wouldn't you agree?
No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Heck even the Catholic grade school I went to (all white Nuns and Priests) had paintings of a black Jesus and half (or a good portion) of the students were white.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Doug - I can't help but wonder why you would think yourself more expert in this than me. But in any event, the people below are self professed Black. Given time, I am sure that I could find a match for Giovanni Tornabuoni.
Cab Calloway (1907 -1994) American jazz musician, band leader. writer of the song 'Reeferman'
Adolph Caesar (December 5, 1933 – March 6, 1986) was an American actor.
The fact is that the Medici family of Italy never identified as black were primarily white and only had a few members who had direct black African ancestry. To say otherwise with no evidence other than misinterpretations and distortions of paintings from their time is nonsense. Those who did have African ancestry in that family were famously identified as such, hence Alessandro the Moor. But to say ALL these people had black African blood is ridiculous.
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No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Now quote me saying All Madonnas in Europe are black Madonnas. And are you saying the one above is not "real"? If so why?
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No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Now quote me saying All Madonnas in Europe are black Madonnas. And are you saying the one above is not "real"? If so why?
The black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. It isn't the case that they are hidden and need someone to "find" them. Some art in Europe is darkened by grime and some isn't. So like I said all of them are not black Madonnas, meaning INTENDED to represent a black woman and/or child.
And on top of that you never asked me specifically about the image. You asked a general question and I gave you a general answer.
So, what image of the Madonna is this and where is it located? And regardless of whether it is or isn't intended to be a black madonna, that still doesn't change the point that all portraits of the Madonna that are dark are black Madonnas. Some are indeed darkened by age or grime. There are more than enough black Madonnas in Europe that are undeniably black, without trying to claim any portrait of the Madonna that looks dark as being such.
It is simply a representation of mother nature and mothers come in all colors. The key here though is that the tradition of Isis as the black mother goddess is part of the ancient traditions that led to the black Madonna in many cases.
Some of these were used as battle standards in Medieval times:
No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Now quote me saying All Madonnas in Europe are black Madonnas. And are you saying the one above is not "real"? If so why?
The black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. It isn't the case that they are hidden and need someone to "find" them. Some art in Europe is darkened by grime and some isn't. So like I said all of them are not black Madonnas, meaning INTENDED to represent a black woman and/or child.
And on top of that you never asked me specifically about the image. You asked a general question and I gave you a general answer.
So, what image of the Madonna is this and where is it located?
And are you saying you need some white person to tell you that an obvious picture of a Black mother and child is a "Black Madonna"? And if they don't say so it is not a black Madonna? Are you saying you need whites to validate what is obvious? And you are being dishonest when you say that the black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. Some are denied and explained away by the very excuses you give. But neither them, nor you, can explain why only the hands and feet seem to be so affected.
quote:that still doesn't change the point that all portraits of the Madonna that are dark are black Madonnas.
So dark is not equal to black now? LOL
Oh boy, this is a new twist coming from YOU.
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No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Now quote me saying All Madonnas in Europe are black Madonnas. And are you saying the one above is not "real"? If so why?
The black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. It isn't the case that they are hidden and need someone to "find" them. Some art in Europe is darkened by grime and some isn't. So like I said all of them are not black Madonnas, meaning INTENDED to represent a black woman and/or child.
And on top of that you never asked me specifically about the image. You asked a general question and I gave you a general answer.
So, what image of the Madonna is this and where is it located?
And are you saying you need some white person to tell you that an obvious picture of a Black mother and child is a "Black Madonna"? And if they don’t say so it is not a black Madonna? Are you saying you need whites to validate what is obvious? And you are being dishonest when you say that the black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. Some are denied and explained away by the very excuses you give. But neither them, nor you, can explain why only the hands and feet seem to be so affected.
quote:that still doesn't change the point that all portraits of the Madonna that are dark are black Madonnas.
So dark is not equal to black now? LOL
Oh boy, this is a new twist coming from YOU.
No, what I said stands for itself. All images of the Madonna in Europe are not intended to be black Madonnas and it has nothing to do with what someone tells me. It has to do with intent of the artist. Some portraits of the Madonna were INTENTIONALLY made to be black and others were not.
But again, you still have not answered the question about this particular portrait, which means that you don't really care enough to go further than just post any old image of a madonna that looks dark whether it was intended to be a black madonna or not. You need that information in order to know for sure. It has nothing to do with a white person telling anyone anything it has to do with facts. But you can believe that any darkened image of the Madonna in Europe is black all you want, but all darkened images of the Madonna are not black Madonnas.
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No. All Madonnas in Europe are not black Madonnas.
Now quote me saying All Madonnas in Europe are black Madonnas. And are you saying the one above is not "real"? If so why?
The black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. It isn't the case that they are hidden and need someone to "find" them. Some art in Europe is darkened by grime and some isn't. So like I said all of them are not black Madonnas, meaning INTENDED to represent a black woman and/or child.
And on top of that you never asked me specifically about the image. You asked a general question and I gave you a general answer.
So, what image of the Madonna is this and where is it located?
And are you saying you need some white person to tell you that an obvious picture of a Black mother and child is a "Black Madonna"? And if they don’t say so it is not a black Madonna? Are you saying you need whites to validate what is obvious? And you are being dishonest when you say that the black Madonnas of Europe are famous and identified as such by name. Some are denied and explained away by the very excuses you give. But neither them, nor you, can explain why only the hands and feet seem to be so affected.
quote:that still doesn't change the point that all portraits of the Madonna that are dark are black Madonnas.
So dark is not equal to black now? LOL
Oh boy, this is a new twist coming from YOU.
No, what I said stands for itself. All images of the Madonna in Europe are not intended to be black Madonnas and it has nothing to do with what someone tells me. It has to do with intent of the artist. Some portraits of the Madonna were INTENTIONALLY made to be black and others were not.
But again, you still have not answered the question about this particular portrait, which means that you don't really care enough to go further than just post any old image of a madonna that looks dark whether it was intended to be a black madonna or not. You need that information in order to know for sure. It has nothing to do with a white person telling anyone anything it has to do with facts. But you can believe that any darkened image of the Madonna in Europe is black all you want, but all darkened images of the Madonna are not black Madonnas.
Oh Jesus. You don't need a tourist guide book or a sign under a portrait of a black mother and child that says "Black Madonna" to convince you that it is. The fact that some are denied and explained away means that you can't always go by what whites say. You have to use your eyes and common sense. Which of course it seems you have none. As for the meaning, yes they are varied and fluid: representative of primordial earth goddess, Isis or combination of both. But weather elements is an excuse not fact.
A Black Madonna is a Black Madonna "Doug M". Now look at the picture and tell me if the dark areas are due to environment or they are INTENTIONALLY made so? Well?
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The tour guide when I visited Barcelona emphasised that this one had been darkened by age.
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^ Well according to Doug M we can tick this one off too as not a "real" Black Madonna. lol
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The tour guide when I visited Barcelona emphasised that this one had been darkened by age.
The black madonna at Barcelona is a copy of the black Madonna of Montserrat. It was made to look exactly like the original, right down to the color. Therefore it cannot be darkened due to age. The reason the tour guide said that is truly based on socio-politics as opposed to reality.
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I don't know and who cares? There are many actual black Madonnas that were intentionally created as black. There are others that were not originally painted black but have darkened over time and are called black Madonnas. You aren't the first one to see such images and call them black. It isn't new and it isn't a secret.
quote:The Origin of the Black Madonna and Child
In the Fourth Century, the cathedral at Chartres, France was dedicated to the Black Madonna. Black Madonnas, however, may even precede this date. Numerous Madonnas have been created all over the world - Germany, Italy, France, Poland, Switzerland and Spain. Our Lady of Montserrat in Spain is perhaps the best known Black Madonna statue. Legend contends that this statue was carved by St. Luke in Jerusalem, taken to Barcelona, and hidden in a cave near Montserrat to be rediscovered in 880 A.D.
There are three distinct categories of Black Madonnas:
1. Madonnas of dark brown or black skin pigmentation and physiognomy resembling the populace indigenous to the area; 2. Madonnas that became black due to smoke damage, deterioration, oxidation, or other physical changes; and 3. miracle-working Black Madonnas with black or dark brown pigmentation originating in regions inhabited by Caucasians.
The third category is significant; for physical deterioration, accident nor resemblance to the native population can logically explain their color or account for their discovery in areas populated by whites. These Black Madonnas were considered to be exceedingly powerful miracle workers and held in high esteem. They were worshipped for their power rather adored due to their grace.
An eighteen foot chancel mural of the Black Madonna, painted by Detroit artist Glanton Dowdell was unveiled and dedicated on Easter Sunday, March 26, 1967, at the Shrine of the Black Madonna by the Reverend Albert Cleage. This mural became Detroit's first representation of the Black Madonna and Child.
The point being that there are hundreds of black Madonnas in Europe, but this thread focuses only on those that 'may' be due to weathering and age, but doesn't even show the ones that are undeniably black, of which there are also quite a few in Europe.
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Point is you opened your damn mouth and ended up looking stupid as usual. Now that you realise just how stupid you look applying the "pollution or fungal decomposition" argument to this obvious Black Madonna you scream in surrender "who cares!"
Wow! Not so long ago you implied it wasn't a "real" Black Madonna and dismissed it as some "old image of a Madonna"! You are so full of it.
Look at her "Doug M", look at her and apologise to the black Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Earth!
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Doug - How did "Racist Lies" suddenly become "socio-politics"? It must hurt, talking out of both sides of the mouth is not natural.
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: Point is you opened your damn mouth and ended up looking stupid as usual. Now that you realise just how stupid you look applying the "pollution or fungal decomposition" argument to this obvious Black Madonna you scream in surrender "who cares!"
Wow! Not so long ago you implied it wasn't a "real" Black Madonna and dismissed it as some "old image of a Madonna"! You are so full of it.
Look at her "Doug M", look at her and apologise to the black Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Earth!
Actually I asked you where it was from. Is that something too hard to provide or do you just like spamming unknown and unidentified images?
And what I said was there are MANY black madonnas in Europe, you only care about the ones that COULD be darkened with age, not the ones that ARE SIMPLY BLACK. There are black Madonnas in Europe that are unambiguously intended to be black. YES Europeans lie about them. But that has nothing to do with whether SOME black Madonnas were INTENTIONALLY created as black women and whether others are simply labeled as such after being darkened due to age.
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[Catherine de Medici: this is her real colour. Doesn't she look like one of these Black Madonna's? The Medici family is described as, most of them, having bulging eyes. Her son is described as 'swarthy.' They wanted to be perceived as divine rulers, so Maria and God were also black]
Dear Mike111,
You are starting to catch up! By looking at these paintings and saying they look black you have freed your mind. When we find that these people have lied many times to cut out blacks from history, we do not have to keep on analysing each new lie. We reject their vision entirely. But because they monopolise the data, we still have to use their books and visit their museums of lies to be able to see the artefacts they lie about. Its disgusting how these houseniggers over here just swallow all this crap.
But I would advise you to study more portraits of these same people because you have posted the most whitened images, and images which they reproduce in such a way that the person looks very white skinned. The old prints and drawings usually show colour. Prints are harder to repress because they were published widely and are found in books in many collection. The paintings usually are the fakes.
Then we are not getting the whole picture because we do not see the whole body of portraits ever produced. We see the one's on which eurocentrism is based on. Some whitened portraits are authentic; some are over paints, whitened copies or downright fakes showing another person. They are idealised, making otherwise ugly or misshapen people beautiful and regal. There is a lot going on with portraits that they are not telling us. And I still believe that one does not have to be a professor to say that someone looks black. These people are a mixed race, they would look like all other black nations.
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The tour guide when I visited Barcelona emphasised that this one had been darkened by age.
The black madonna at Barcelona is a copy of the black Madonna of Montserrat. It was made to look exactly like the original, right down to the color. Therefore it cannot be darkened due to age. The reason the tour guide said that is truly based on socio-politics as opposed to reality.
Thanks for your comment, I was actually talking about the Madonna of Montserrat. That's the one I went to see, on a coach tour from Barcelona.
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Sketch of Alençon by J Decourt Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris
Suitor of Elizabeth I. Youngest child of Catherine de Medici, brother to Charles IX of France. Took the title of Duke of Anjou after the death of his brother Henri.
Born in Saint-Germain-en-Laye, fith son of king Henri II and of Caterina de' Medici, Hercule François de Valois, Duke d'Évreux 1560, Duke d'Alençon et Château-Thierry 1566, Duke d'Anjou, de Berry et de Touraine 1576, was the brother of king Henri III.
Small and swarthy, ambitious and cunning, François was leader of the moderate Roman Catholic faction called the Politiques, who supported Bodin's theory of sovereignty. He courted Queen Elizabeth and even succeeded in negotiating a marriage contract with her in 1579; despite two visits to London to woo her, the mariage never took place, possibly because he was discovered being homosexual. His lover was Louis de Clermont Sieur de Bussy d'Amboise (five years his elder).Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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Now that we have decided they lie about the damn Black madonna's, we might try to find out what they mean. One famous one was destroyed during the French revolution. I think because the French revolution was against this elite which was black and had all these black divine images produced.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: With the Egyptian, it's offering jars. With the Madonna, it's golden balls. Any idea if there is a connection.
Symbolism in European renaissance art is a subject of study all to itself. Yes, the globes mean something and mostly it relates to world power.
Here is an example of a Renaissance portrait rich with symbolism (Elizabeth I Armada Portrait):
But keep in mind that this use of symbolism in royal portraits does indeed trace back to more ancient cultures, whether Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Asia, Greece or Rome. In fact many of the motifs in Renaissance art are taken from these cultures. I remember posting an image of one of the Kushite queens where she had very similar styles of dress and various symbols as seen in the images of Elizabeth. Then you have the art of South East Asia (Cambodia,Thailand,Vietnam,etc) where the goddesses and female queens were decked out in many layers of pearls, elaborate head dresses and rich textiles. Then you have the elaborate textile traditions of the Moors, Persians and other Islamic peoples of the late 1st millennium, with elaborate brocaded and embroidered textiles and head dresses. All of this directly influenced the style of European royal custom, even though many may not know it. As a matter of fact, the use of polylobed arches as a symbol of divinity as an architectural element goes back to India and some of the early Buddhist temples there, where figures of the Buddha or other divine figures are seen sitting under such arches. This is also found in other parts of South Asia as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually I asked you where it was from. Is that something too hard to provide or do you just like spamming unknown and unidentified images?
And what I said was there are MANY black madonnas in Europe, you only care about the ones that COULD be darkened with age, not the ones that ARE SIMPLY BLACK. There are black Madonnas in Europe that are unambiguously intended to be black. YES Europeans lie about them. But that has nothing to do with whether SOME black Madonnas were INTENTIONALLY created as black women and whether others are simply labeled as such after being darkened due to age.
How old are you dude? I "only care about" those that could be darkened with age? lol
Look, I don't have any "favorites" if that's what you're asking, all I'm saying is that the one Egmond posted is obviously a Black Madonna. "Doug M", you're obviously saving face. Who cares where its from, its obviously a Black Madonna. Clearly its not "darkened by age" which is why you have yet to demonstrate this to us, even though you keep blabbing on about it.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually I asked you where it was from. Is that something too hard to provide or do you just like spamming unknown and unidentified images?
And what I said was there are MANY black madonnas in Europe, you only care about the ones that COULD be darkened with age, not the ones that ARE SIMPLY BLACK. There are black Madonnas in Europe that are unambiguously intended to be black. YES Europeans lie about them. But that has nothing to do with whether SOME black Madonnas were INTENTIONALLY created as black women and whether others are simply labeled as such after being darkened due to age.
How old are you dude? I "only care about" those that could be darkened with age? lol
Look, I don't have any "favorites" if that's what you're asking, all I'm saying is that the one Egmond posted is obviously a Black Madonna. "Doug M", you're obviously saving face. Who cares where its from, its obviously a Black Madonna. Clearly it not "darkened by age" which is why you have yet to demonstrate this to us, even though you keep blabbing on about it.
Why don't you answer the question? Simple as that. I didn't ask for a whole bunch of talk. If you CARE about the image and its history then you SHOULD know where it is and something about it no?
Otherwise you are just arguing for sake of argument not for any purpose of understanding or history of such images in European art.
I take it you don't know anything about the picture other than it looks dark and MIGHT be a "black" Madonna. If that is as far your research or interest goes in this subject then obviously your research is limited to the nonsense talking points of people like Edmond. Anyone who would START a discussion on the black Madonnas of Europe and SKIP the the numerous OBVIOUSLY BLACK images of the Madonnas in Europe to focus on the ones that are ambiguous, are not serious about the subject.
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^ clearly you're the one arguing on and saving face. I already told you I don't care where its from. You were the one who objected to it implying it wasnt "intended" to be a Black Madonna. The onus is on you to demonstrate this. But we all know why you can only spam your "three categories" nothing else.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Point is, if you don't know where it's from, don't care where it's from, can't make any conclusions since you obviously know nothing about it right?
...and hence your assertions are likely incorrect and you don't even know if the portrait was intended to be a black Madonna, other then what Doug said, that it looks dark to you, so it might be.
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ clearly you're the one arguing on and saving face. I already told you I don't care where its from. You were the one who objected to it implying it wasnt "intended" to be a Black Madonna. The onus is on you to demonstrate this. But we all know why you can only spam your "three categories" nothing else.
You must care about it because you are the only one arguing about it. So if you don't care about it why are you pestering me about it? The only one saving face is you because you don't care about the subject enough to even do your own research on it. There are lists of black Madonnas published all over the place. There are tours to sites of black Madonnas all over Europe. Such black madonnas are famous and not secret. Therefore, it should be a simple case to find out if this is one of them...
But I forgot, you think this is some sort of "secret" only you have figured out and exposed.
Sure.
quote: Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark or black skin. This name applies in particular to European statues or pictures of a Madonna which are of special interest because her dark face and hands is thought by some to be the true color. In this specialised sense "Black Madonna" does not apply to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as explicitly black African, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as the United States. However, it has been argued that European Black Madonnas have their roots in African traditions (see below).
Some statues get their color from the material used, such as ebony or other dark wood, but there is debate about whether this choice of material is significant. Others were originally light-skinned but have become darkened over time, for example by candle soot. For a time this was thought to be the explanation for all medieval "black" images of Mary, but this has been contested by commentators starting in the 1950s with Leonard Moss, who believed the color of originally-dark Madonnas had significance. Occasionally, a Madonna's face has been re-painted black after restoration had returned it to its original pale-skinned coloring, though the blackness of even these is sometimes significant to devotees.
The Black Madonnas are generally medieval, or copies of medieval figures, and are found in Catholic areas. The statues are mostly wooden but occasionally stone, often painted and up to 75 cm tall, many dating from between the 11th and 15th centuries. They fall into two main groups: free-standing upright figures and seated figures on a throne. The pictures are usually icons: Byzantine in style though sometimes made in 13th or 14th century Italy. Most are an image of Mother and Child. Their faces tend to have recognizably European features. There are about 450-500 Black Madonnas in Europe, depending on how they are classified. There are at least 180 Vierges Noires in France, and there are hundreds of non-medieval copies too. A few are in museums, but most are in churches or shrines and are venerated by devotees. Many are associated with miracles and some attract substantial numbers of pilgrims.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Point is, if you don't know where it's from, don't care where it's from, can't make any conclusions since you obviously know nothing about it right?
...and hence your assertions are likely incorrect and you don't even know if the portrait was intended to be a black Madonna, other then what Doug said, that it looks dark to you, so it might be.
Oh you are really showing your mindlessness now. I know its an obvious Black Madonna. And if you, like "Doug M", don't think it is really dark, it only "looks" dark then fine. Like "Doug M" prove it was darked by age or candle burns or shut the **** up.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Point is, if you don't know where it's from, don't care where it's from, can't make any conclusions since you obviously know nothing about it right?
...and hence your assertions are likely incorrect and you don't even know if the portrait was intended to be a black Madonna, other then what Doug said, that it looks dark to you, so it might be.
I know its an obvious Black Madonna.
...and you base this on what?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Point is, if you don't know where it's from, don't care where it's from, can't make any conclusions since you obviously know nothing about it right?
...and hence your assertions are likely incorrect and you don't even know if the portrait was intended to be a black Madonna, other then what Doug said, that it looks dark to you, so it might be.
Oh you are really showing your mindlessness now. I know its an obvious Black Madonna. And if you, like "Doug M", don't think it is really dark, it only "looks" dark then fine. Like "Doug M" prove it was darked by age or candle burns or shut the **** up.
I asked you for information about the portrait. If you can't provide it then that's the end of it. You can call it what you want. But in order to know for sure you need to know where it was from, who painted it and when. Since you POSTED the images but didn't feel the need to go any further in researching it, then the question isn't answered. I never said it WASN'T a black Madonna, but that there are MANY OTHERS that aren't as ambiguous. I have posted them, identified them and located them. So whatever image it is, or wherever it is from, it doesn't matter because I KNOW that there are black Madonnas in Europe and it isn't something SO OBSCURE that I need to argue over some UNKNOWN and UNIDENTIFIED image with you.
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quote:I have posted them, identified them and located them.
And prey tell, how did you "identify" them? Because the whites, that you admit lie about them, said they were Black Madonnas? And if they said an obviously Black Madonna wasn't intended to be a Black Madonna – it was darkened by age, its just the dark color of the material used, its really pollution or fungal decomposition - then it isn't a black Madonna? It has already been establish that whites lie about them yet you still insist they must be validated by the same white people! You schizophrenic loser! lol
Look, quit with your signature photo spam. Nothing you posted from Wiki (you pathetic internet "scholar") that I havent read already long ago. You were the one who objected to it hence the onus is on you to explain how an obviously black Madonna wasn't "intended" to be Black Madonna.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: [QB] [QUOTE] ...and you base this on what?
On the fact that you are a color blind gringo.
So....you pretty much base this on nothing, and like I said you made an erroneous assertion, since you had no idea of where this portrait even came from. Btw, you're the only gringo on here, Kennedy.
No big deal, you do this all the time which is why you end up getting intellectually smacked everywhere you go.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: there are MANY OTHERS that aren't as ambiguous.
You're so clueless you don't even understand the meaning of "secret" in reference to the Black Madonna phenomena. In essence the so-called "cult" of the Black Madonna has an ambiguous essence to it. It's a "secret" little Doug M precisely because there are many explanations for them. Why are they dark? Decomposition, materials used, a throw back to primordial earth goddess, African goddess archetype, Masonic symbolism, representative of Mary because she was dark skinned. Does the dark have any significance or is it just coincidence? There are many explanations for it hence their "true" nature is a "secret". Not that they have to be "identified" as Black Madonnas, you simpleton.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: there are MANY OTHERS that aren't as ambiguous.
You're so clueless you don't even understand the meaning of "secret" in reference to the Black Madonna phenomena. In essence the so-called "cult" of the Black Madonna has an ambiguous essence to it. It's a "secret" little Doug M precisely because there are many explanations for them. Why are they dark? Decomposition, materials used, a throw back to primordial earth goddess, African goddess archetype, Masonic symbolism, representative of Mary because she was dark skinned. Does the dark have any significance or is it just coincidence? There are many explanations for it hence their "true" nature is a "secret". Not that they have to be "identified" as Black Madonnas, you simpleton.
Well as I said, the only one making up nonsense history is you.
Black Madonnas are listed and identified by name all over Europe in many different languages. So it isn't a secret. And since such symbolism PREDATES any "masons" in Europe, how on earth can they keep something secret they did not originate? Black symbolizing the origin of all life is found all over the planet, so how on earth is it some "special" secret of Europeans? Such symbolism and its meaning predates any European conceptions of such and they maintain it PRECISELY out of respect for the obvious TRUTH that they represent on many levels. The lies are because such symbolism also relates to national identity and power. Therefore, in the context of expanding European empires it is necessary to portray Europeans and European leaders as the epitome of divinity on earth.
But again, you posted an image, don't have any information on it and then proceed to argue on everything BUT that which YOU posted. Seems to me your argument is null and void. Let's stick to that.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Doug M: Black Madonnas are listed and identified by name all over Europe in many different languages. So it isn't a secret.
Then why are there so many explanations for them? Which one is "true"?
quote:And since such symbolism PREDATES any "masons" in Europe, how on earth can they keep something secret they did not originate? Black symbolizing the origin of all life is found all over the planet, so how on earth is it some "special" secret of Europeans? Such symbolism and its meaning predates any European conceptions of such and they maintain it PRECISELY out of respect for the obvious TRUTH that they represent on many levels.
Again, you're simply exposing yourself as a simpleton Doug M. The varied explanations doesn't have to represent "truth" for the phenomena to be ambiguous in nature. Poor you.
quote: But again, you posted an image, don't have any information on it
The only information I need is the ones my eyes can give: i.e. Egmond posted an obvious Black Madonna. You already admit that it is dark, your only contention is why it is dark. This is why you threw in the darken by age argument. You objected to it, you failed to substantiate your objections.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: With the Egyptian, it's offering jars. With the Madonna, it's golden balls. Any idea if there is a connection.
Symbolism in European renaissance art is a subject of study all to itself. Yes, the globes mean something and mostly it relates to world power.
Here is an example of a Renaissance portrait rich with symbolism (Elizabeth I Armada Portrait):
But keep in mind that this use of symbolism in royal portraits does indeed trace back to more ancient cultures, whether Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Asia, Greece or Rome. In fact many of the motifs in Renaissance art are taken from these cultures. I remember posting an image of one of the Kushite queens where she had very similar styles of dress and various symbols as seen in the images of Elizabeth. Then you have the art of South East Asia (Cambodia,Thailand,Vietnam,etc) where the goddesses and female queens were decked out in many layers of pearls, elaborate head dresses and rich textiles. Then you have the elaborate textile traditions of the Moors, Persians and other Islamic peoples of the late 1st millennium, with elaborate brocaded and embroidered textiles and head dresses. All of this directly influenced the style of European royal custom, even though many may not know it. As a matter of fact, the use of polylobed arches as a symbol of divinity as an architectural element goes back to India and some of the early Buddhist temples there, where figures of the Buddha or other divine figures are seen sitting under such arches. This is also found in other parts of South Asia as well.
Some Chinese royal portraits from 1000 years prior to Elizabeth:
quote: Originally posted by Doug M: Black Madonnas are listed and identified by name all over Europe in many different languages. So it isn't a secret.
Then why are there so many explanations for them? Which one is "true"?
quote:And since such symbolism PREDATES any "masons" in Europe, how on earth can they keep something secret they did not originate? Black symbolizing the origin of all life is found all over the planet, so how on earth is it some "special" secret of Europeans? Such symbolism and its meaning predates any European conceptions of such and they maintain it PRECISELY out of respect for the obvious TRUTH that they represent on many levels.
Again, you're simply exposing yourself as a simpleton Doug M. The varied explanations doesn't have to represent "truth" for the phenomena to be ambiguous in nature. Poor you.
quote: But again, you posted an image, don't have any information on it
The only information I need is the ones my eyes can give: i.e. Egmond posted an obvious Black Madonna. You already admit that it is dark, your only contention is why it is dark. This is why you threw in the darken by age argument. You objected to it, you failed to substantiate your objections.
The point is YOU referenced the image so YOU are the one who has to PROVE that it is a black Madonna.
You keep trying to avoid this obligation by talking and talking and talking but not proving YOUR image is a black Madonna. I posted my own and stand behind such an identification of such images through references AND the obvious PHYSICAL evidence that is readily seen with the naked eyeball. I never really said the image you posted WASN'T a black Madonna, what I said was that it was an AMBIGUOUS image.
You and Edmond on the other hand have provided nothing but a bunch of pictures with little references as to their location and origin.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: The point is YOU referenced the image so YOU are the one who has to PROVE that it is a black Madonna.
Proof is in the physical evidence: it is dark and you already admitted this. Your only contention was why it is dark hence your, and Mary's, explanations of age and pollution or fungal decomposition.
If you admit it is dark why isnt it a Black Madonna? Or are you saying now that dark does not equal black. Like I said, dark not being synonymous with black is a new twist from you.
quote: I never really said the image you posted WASN'T a black Madonna, what I said was that it was an AMBIGUOUS image.
Actually because of your initial flap implying that it wasn't "a real" Black Madonna but darken by age, you ended up saying a number of erroneous and contradictory things that demonstrated your ignorance of the Black Madonna phenomena.
You thought the "secret" was merely not identifying them as Black Madonnas, which is rubbish.
You admit whites lie about them anyway yet you insist they must be validated by the said liars.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote: The point is YOU referenced the image so YOU are the one who has to PROVE that it is a black Madonna.
Proof is in the physical evidence: it is dark and you already admitted this. Your only contention was why it is dark hence your, and Mary's, explanations of age and pollution or fungal decomposition.
If you admit it is dark why isnt it a Black Madonna? Or are you saying now that dark does not equal black. Like I said, dark not being synonymous with black is a new twist from you.
quote: I never really said the image you posted WASN'T a black Madonna, what I said was that it was an AMBIGUOUS image.
Actually because of your initial flap implying that it wasn't "a real" Black Madonna but darken by age, you ended up saying a number of erroneous and contradictory things that demonstrated your ignorance of the Black Madonna phenomena.
You thought the "secret" was merely not identifying them as Black Madonnas, which is rubbish.
You admit whites lie about them anyway yet you insist they must be validated by the said liars.
Stop trying to reverse the burden of proof. YOU posted the image YOU claim it is a black madonna so YOU prove it. It is that simple.
Oh... but wait, you don't even know where it came from!
LOL!
So much for your reliability and ability to address facts.
Meanwhile, those images I have posted are easily referenced and observable as black Madonnas.
So don't get mad that all you have is a photo and nothing more than pure rhetoric to justify your claims......
Maybe at some point you will TRY and look through your browser history to see where it comes from, instead of trying to push your obligations on everyone else.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Doug you make no sense, as usual. You abandoned your dark-by-age argument in favor of Black by white validation. Yet you admit whites lie about them.
Are they then Black Madonnas until whites say they are or are they Black Madonnas because they are dark skinned? Which one?
And if they are Black Madonnas because of white validation then this means "all medieval "black" images of Mary" werent really Black Madonnas until the 1950s! lol
Child, you are one walking contradiction.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: Doug you make no sense, as usual. You abandoned your dark-by-age argument in favor of Black by white validation. Yet you admit whites lie about them.
Are they then Black Madonnas until whites say they are or are they Black Madonnas because they are dark skinned? Which one?
And if they are Black Madonnas because of white validation then this means "all medieval "black" images of Mary" werent really Black Madonnas until the 1950s! lol
Child, you are one walking contradiction.
How about YOU provide evidence of why that image is a black Madonna.
Simple enough isn't it?
It should be obvious to everyone by now that you CAN'T and all you are doing is avoiding the fact that YOU cannot prove it. So don't keep asking me to prove something YOU posted to begin with.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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