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Originally posted by KING:
akoben

Please show me how Christians are Hypocrites.

Last time I checked there was no mention of virgins or boys in Heaven in my faith.

Peace

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Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
akoben

Please show me how Christians are Hypocrites.

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You do with each post you point fingers at Islam when you people believe in some pretty weird concepts yourself. I mean why would the sun...oops...son of god, the perfect man, Jesus, not have sex with women while on earth?

Why could he not be a normal man have family and still lead an exemplify life? Is celibacy the perfect way or what? Was this hinted at by Paul? Some think so. [The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, entry on "Paul"] Could this explain why some early fathers or saints were castrated? Was Pauline Christianity anti-woman and homosexual in nature while the Magdalene one was more "authentic" so that's why it was persecuted?....

Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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I never said you are a victim, I said you play the victim. And you do. The last you were caught calling out Marc on his wife. That was very Christain of you.

You are a hypocrite. I know your kind.

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there is know proof of Paul being gay, but because you think he was then that makes him gay? So people should go by what they think instead of what is written about Paul?

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Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Marc was making insults to me before I ever said anything about him.

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Even though I regret what I said.

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Is this your only proof that I am hypocrite>

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Wow so now I am a hypocrite because I did not interperate the Bible or the Quran.

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Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
akoben

What verses in the Bible hint at homosexuality?

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Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:

The Explorer

I got a video for you to watch maybe it will answer your questions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4cFsd3AeVs

Peace

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Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
akoben

This is something you have said that makes the most sense. I do have a lot to learn. I never claimed I knew it all, or that my schooling was done. There is some seriously bad things in this world. The elite have us like puppets. Instead of you debateing without insults the elites want you to make fun of the person you are debating and then while each person is too busy hating on each other the facts and the learning stops. Try to come at people humble and not just to instigate a internet war.

Peace

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You should realize that Akoben is a good man, dedicated to fighting the Zionists wherever they may be. It is the Zionist controlled elites that have gotten us into this current mess. Do you recognize the diagram below and its meaning? It is a mechanism of Zionist control.




The Zionists put out many slanders against Islam. But Islam is more tolerant and accepting of our differences than others. That is why the US military will fail in its use of porn to intimidate people in the Middle East. Love of sodomy and young boys has a long history in Arab and Persian culture. Islam is more tolerant.
See the article section below as proof. All is not posted. You can get the rest.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JH12Ak03.html

Sufism, sodomy and Satan
By Spengler

Sigmund Freud thought that everything was about sex, and he was half right. Rarely is love so spiritual that it does not also stir the loins, for human beings are creatures not only of soul but of body. Although it is thought rude to say so nowadays, different kinds of love belong to different kinds of sex. Not even Hell can resist divine love, J W Goethe showed in the funniest vignette in all literature: his devil, Mephistopheles, is disabled by an obsessive lust for the cherubs sent to claim the soul of Faust in the drama’s penultimate scene. Heavenly beauty, that is, reduces the crafty demon to a pathetic old pervert, in a tableau not fit for a family newspaper.[1]

Goethe’s creepily convincing portrait of a pederastic devil in Faust (1832) drew on the poet’s earlier study of Persian love poetry of the High Middle Ages,[2] where “as a rule, the beloved is not a woman, but a young man”, according to the leading Persian historian Ehsan Yar-Shater. Islamic mysticism (Sufism) of the High Middle Ages is the only case in which a mainstream current of a major world religion preached pederasty as a path to spiritual enlightenment. A vast literature documents this, and a great deal of it is available online.

Sufi adoration of pre-pubescent boys “persisted in many Islamic countries until very recent times,” according to the Orientalist Helmut Ritter.[3] The Afghan penchant for dancing boys in female costume, shown in the 2007 film The Kite Runner, is the last vestige of a Sufi practice that has been long suppressed by both the Sunni and Shi’ite branches of Islam. Sufism has a reputation in Western pop culture as a kinder and gentler branch of Islam. It is not a different kind of Islam, but rather Islam’s mystical practice, to which the adage applies, “by their fruits shall ye know them.”

Controversy persists over what is “authentic Sufism”. The Turkish organization of Fethallah Gulen claims millions of members and doubtless is the largest self-styled Sufi organization in the world. The American Sufi convert Stephen Schwartz has dismissed it as a “cult”,[4] while Michael Rubin of the American Enterprise Institute warns that Gulen may become the Turkish Khomeini. Given Turkey’s turn towards political Islam (Turkey in the throes of Islamic revolution?, Jul 22, 2008), the world is likely to find out a great deal more about Sufism in the near future, and well may be dismayed by what it learns.

In contrast to the Judeo-Christian West, where marriage has been a metaphor for God’s love since the Biblical Song of Songs, homosexual pederasty was normative for the Sufi philosopher-poets of Islam’s golden age in Central Asia. For Christians, the earthly adumbration of God’s love was nuptial, but pederastic in Muslim Persia. The classic Persian poets, including Hafez[5] and Rumi,[6] pined for beardless boys while their European contemporaries wrote sonnets to women. Some apologists claim that the Sufi practice of “contemplation of the beardless” was a chaste spiritual exercise, but an Egyptian proverb warns: “In his father's home a boy's chastity is safe, but let him become a dervish [Sufi adept] and the buggers will queue up behind him.”[7]

Sufi pedophilia cannot be dismissed as a remnant of the old tribal practices that Islam often incorporated, for example, female genital mutilation. Genital mutilation is a pre-Islamic practice unknown in the ancient and modern West. Even though some Muslim authorities defend it on the basis of Hadith, no one has ever claimed that it offered a path to enlightenment. Sadly, pedophiles are found almost everywhere. In its ascendancy, Sufism made a definitive spiritual experience out of a practice considered criminally aberrant in the West. But pederasty as a spiritual exercise is not essentially different in character from the furtive practices of Western perverts. As the psychiatrists explain, pederasty is an expression of narcissism, the love of an idealized youthful self-image.

Sufism seeks one-ness with the universe through spiritual exercises that lead individual consciousness to dissolve into the cosmos. But nothing is more narcissistic than the contemplation of the cosmos, for if we become one with the cosmos, what we love in the cosmos is simply an idealized image of ourselves. An idealized self-image is also what attracts the aging lecher to the adolescent boy. That is the secret of Sufi as well as other pederasty, for pederasty is an extreme expression of self-love. That is the conventional psychiatric view; Freud for example wrote of the “basic narcissism of the vast majority of pederasts … proceeding as from narcissism, they seek their own image in young people.”

Sufism enjoys a faddish ripple of interest in America, where self-admiration is the national pastime. As opposed to the Biblical God, the cosmos is an unthreatening thing to worship. The universe, after all, is no one in particular, and those who seek to merge their consciousness with no one in particular at the end are left alone with themselves. Worship the cosmos, and you worship yours truly; worship yourself, and it is not unusual to adore your own idealized image.

I do not mean to suggest that Sufis today are more likely to be pederasts than members of any other religious denomination. Sadly, there is brisk competition in that field. Karen Armstrong, the popular writer on religion, claims to be a Sufi, and I have it on good authority that she is not a pederast. Non-Muslims who embrace Sufism view it as a generic form of “spirituality”, like Madonna’s dabbling in what she thinks is Kabbalah. That recalls the joke about the Chinese waiter in a kosher restaurant who speaks perfect Yiddish, of whom the owner says, “He thinks he’s learning English.” No one should blame Hafez or Rumi for the casual interest of American spiritual tourists.

Nonetheless, it is not entirely by accident that Sufism holds a fascination for self-absorbed young Americans who dislike the demands placed upon them by revealed faith. Mysticism of this genre provides a pretext to worship one’s self in the masquerade of the universe. As Rumi (1207-1273), the most revered of the Sufi philosopher-poets, said of his own spiritual master,


Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!
I do not speak Persian and cannot comment on the aesthetic quality of Rumi’s verse, which connoisseurs hold to be elegant. Its content, though, reduces to the same God-is-everywhere-and-all-I-have-to-do-is-look-inside-myself sort of platitudes of pop spirituality, for example,
I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
…
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a 'two bow-lengths' distance from him' but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.
If the point of love is to dissolve one's self into the All, then there is no difference between the self and the All; the self and the All are the same, and one loves one's self. There is no Other in Sufism, only your own ego grinning back from the universe. To embrace the cosmos implies the destruction of individuality. In Goethe’s drama, Faust conjures up the personification of the cosmos, the Earth Spirit, and cannot bear to look upon it; the Earth Spirit dismisses him with the epigram, “You are like the spirit whom you comprehend - not me!” Woe betide the adept who succeeds in merging his mind with the universe: he would become a monster, like Mephistopheles, the consummate nihilist.
Love of the cosmos reduces to idolatrous love of self. It is a radically different sort of love than the love of YHWH or Jesus, who are distinct beings with a personality, even if incomprehensible in their totality. The Judeo-Christian God is known to humankind by revelation, and specifically self-revelation through love. The revealed God seeks the love of humankind as an Other. Revelation does not reassure us that the Divine was in our hearts all along. It is not always a pleasant experience. It burns our lips like the kiss of a seraph, and casts our heart into the refiner’s fire. It shatters, burns, overwhelms and transforms us - but it does not dissolve us into a cosmic soup. On the contrary: it enhances our individual personality. Precisely because it reinforces our individuality, love in the Judeo-Christian world can be a very painful experience.

To Christians and Jews, God reveals himself as a personality, and through acts of love - the Exodus and the Resurrection. There is no such event in Islam. Allah does not reveals himself, that is, descend to earth; instead, he sends down from heaven his instruction manual, namely the Koran. Allah remains unknown, and ultimately indistinguishable from the nature in which he is embedded. Confronted by this absolutely transcendental entity the individual human personality shrivels into insignificance.

Mystical communion with an unrevealed and unknowable God demands the sort of star- and navel-gazing that brings the communicant right back to good old number one. Just as Rumi said, it’s all inside you, like the self-help books say. And that brings us back to the matter of pederasty.

Men and women are so different that the experience of heterosexual love is analogous to the spiritual encounter with the divine Other. Love is as strong as death, says the Song of Songs:
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it.


It is not only the passion of love that challenges death, fruit of love, the birth of children, that keeps death at bay. Nature appears to have arranged matters so that these two presentiments of immortality occur together. The Judeo-Christian God becomes the partner of human lovers: “Lovers could not love if they did not have an ally against death, if the only certainty were the grave and silence,” writes Michael Wyschogrod. Anyone who has been in love with someone of the opposite sex knows precisely what I am talking about. Those who have not may consult the Song of Songs, for example:
The love of bride and bridegroom is not quite the same thing as the love of God and his congregation, but the passion as strong as death that unites men and women is analogous to the encounter with the Other in the person of God.

On the extreme opposite of the spiritual spectrum, we encounter pederasty as the foundational experience of Sufism. According to Wikipedia, As a Sufi practice of spiritual realization and union with the godhead, the meditation known in Arabic as Nazar ila'l-murd, "contemplation of the beardless," or Shahed-bazi, "witness play" in Persian has been practiced from the earliest years of Islam. It is seen as an act of worship intended to help one ascend to the absolute beauty that is God through the relative beauty that is a boy.

The medieval Persians were not the first to practice the higher sodomy. The Greeks of the 6th century BC preferred young boys, procreating out of patriotic habit while their women closed their eyes and thought of Athens. Adoration of youth is a very different way to capture from love a sense of immortality. In Greek legend the gods turned Narcissus into a flower to punish his pride in refusing male suitors. Pederasty thus was present at the origin of the concept of narcissism.

The medieval Persians surpassed the Greeks in enthusiasm. Hafez, widely considered the greatest Persian poet, wrote such verses as

My sweetheart is a beauty and a child, and I fear that in play one day
He will kill me miserably and he will not be accountable according to the holy law.
I have a fourteen year old idol, sweet and nimble
For whom the full moon is a willing slave.
His sweet lips have (still) the scent of milk
Even though the demeanor of his dark eyes drips blood. (Divan, no 284)
And about the Magian baccha:
If the wine-serving magian boy would shine in this way
I will make a broom of my eyelashes to sweep the entrance of the tavern. (Divan, no 9)

Hafez is typical of the Muslim philosopher-poets of the epoch. Ehsan Yar-Shater wrote:
As a rule, the beloved [in medieval Persian poetry] is not a woman, but a young man. In the early centuries of Islam, the raids into Central Asia produced many young slaves. Slaves were also bought or received as gifts. They were made to serve as pages at court or in the households of the affluent, or as soldiers and body-guards. Young men, slaves or not, also, served wine at banquets and receptions, and the more gifted among them could play music and maintain a cultivated conversation. It was love toward young pages, soldiers, or novices in trades and professions which was the subject of lyrical introductions to panegyrics from the beginning of Persian poetry, and of the ghazal.[8]

As noted, it is tempting to dismiss the pederasty of the Sufi philosopher-poets as a cultural artifact of traditional society, along with the mystical practice of “contemplation of the beardless”. This would obscure rather than shed light, however, for three reasons.

The first is that traditional society is precisely what revelation seeks to temper. The Hebrew Bible abjures pagan practices, just as Mohammed inveighs against the pagans. Yet we do not find a single instance of a Hebrew poet celebrating homosexuality until, of course, late 20th-century Tel Aviv. Classic Persian and Arab literature ooze with it. Islam could not extirpate a pederastic culture including virtually all the leading poets of the high Middle Ages except by suppressing the Sufi cults. There were a number of reasons that both the Sunni and Shia mainstream persecuted Sufism, but a prominent one was the cited practice called “contemplation of the beardless” in which the dervish sought communion with the eternal by immersing himself in the beauty of adolescent boys.

Second, the same sort of people who reject the demands of “organized religion” in favor of “free spirituality” have made the defense of homosexuality the Shibboleth of their generation. Speak out against gay marriage in the United States, and you have made yourself a pariah in any of the strongholds of liberalism, especially university campuses. I do not believe in criminalizing adult homosexuality, any more than I believe that a heterosexual chosen at random is necessarily a better person than a homosexual chosen at random. But the experience of divine love reflected in the love of men and women and their children is the foundation of society, and gay marriage would have dreadful consequences.

Third, pederasty has become a plague in parts of the West, and widespread abuse of children has occasioned a crisis in the Catholic Church. It is hard to avoid the impression that sexual misbehavior is associated with a retreat from faith in a personal God, namely the Jesus who lived on earth and was crucified and was resurrected, in favor of a mushy and unspecific spirituality - something like Sufism, in fact. Perhaps the same link between spiritual and sexual narcissism is at work in the West.

Notes
1. Mephistopheles addresses the boy angels (in Tony Kline’s translation online):

What wretched luck, and dire!
Is this Love’s own element?
My whole body’s bathed in fire,
I scarcely feel, my head’s so burnt. –
You float to and fro, sink down a while,
Move your sweet limbs with earthly guile:
True, a grave expression suits you well,
But I’d still like to see you smile a little!
That would be an eternal delight to me.
Like the lovers’ mutual glance, you see:
A simper round the mouth, is how it’s done,
You, the tall lad, you could make me love you,
The priest’s pose doesn’t really suit you,
So show a little lust, and look hereon!
You could be more modestly naked too,
That robe’s long hem, so demure in its rising –
They turn away – and seen from the rear view –
Those rascals now are really appetising!

See http://www.tonykline.co.uk/klineasfaust.htm

2. The West-Ostlicher Divan of 1814

3. See The Ocean of the Soul: Man, the World, and God in the Stories of Farid Al-Din Attar, by Hellmut Ritter, John O'Kane, Bernd Radtke (Brill: New York 2003), p 516 et seq. Ritter quotes a 1936 travelogue from Albania: “Still another oddity: among the Albanians there is 'love of beauty'. Fifty to sixty people are united through love for a beautiful youth. Quite frequently they ask the father’s permission in the morning, take the boy with them and have him sit on a table. Everyone sits in front of him and gazes at him admiringly for hours. These youths are called dilber. They’re dressed up like a girl, ie, with finger rings, a pleated silk shirt ... silk sash and a small hat tilted to one side …” Comments Ritter, “Since Albania from far back in time has been a home for Sufi orders, it is not far-fetched to assume that the described practice is also of Sufi origin.”

4. http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10273

5. Khwaja Samsu d-Din Muhammad Hafez-e Sirazi, flourished 14th century

6. Mawlana Jalal-ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi, 1207-1273

7. Wikipedia entry, “Pederasty in the Islamic World.”

Posts: 13 | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:

I find it funny that you would dig up this one example of me letting off some steam on marc.

Peace

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Be aware that the Zionists do not entrap you into their project to portray Islam as evil and intolerant. Below is better informations on the topic, free of Zionist lies.


Wikipedia: Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world




The construction of same-sex love in the Middle East has been influenced by its history and geography. Hellenistic elements can be recognized in the use of the wine boy as a symbol of homoerotic passion, and in such ideas as that pederasty is absent from 'primitive' cultures since there a boy can learn all he needs from his father, but that people of high civilization require the erotic attraction of boys to motivate experienced men to teach the boys lovingly. [2]

The valorization of youthful male beauty is found in the Qurʾān itself: "And there shall wait on them [the god fearing men] youths of their own, as fair as virgin pearls." (Qurʾān 52:24; 56:17; 76:19). Islamic jurisprudence generally considers that attraction towards beautiful youths is normal and natural. The Hanbalite jurist Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 1200) is reputed to have said that "He who claims that he experiences no desire when looking at beautiful boys or youths is a liar, and if we could believe him he would be an animal, and not a human being." [3] H


Love of beauty, another quality praised in the hadith which records Muhammad as having said that God is beautiful and loves beauty, and that a handsome face refreshes the eye, was seen as a mark of refined and sophisticated character, even in the appreciation of beautiful boys. The 17th c. Persian philosopher Sadr al-Din al-Shirazi asserted that

We do not find anyone of those who have a refined heart and a delicate character . . . to be void of this love at one time or another in their life, but we find all coarse souls, harsh hearts and dry characters . . . devoid of this type of love, most of them restricting themselves to the love of men for women and the love of women for men with the aim of mating and cohabitation, as is in the nature of all animals [...] [6]

Persia

Princely Youth and Dervish
Reza Abbasi, ca. 1625; Isfahan, Iran;
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.The origin of pederasty in ancient Persia was debated even in ancient times. Herodotus claimed they had learned it from the Greeks: "...and [the Persians'] luxurious practices are of all kinds, and all borrowed: the Greeks taught them pederasty."[7] However, Plutarch asserts that the Persians used eunuch boys "the Greek way" long before they had seen the Grecian main. [8] Despite these historians, Richard Francis Burton was of the opinion that the Persians had picked up the habit from the people inhabiting the Tigris-Euphrates Valley.[9] More recently, the Persian literary historian Zabih Allah Safa called pederasty "the shameful inheritance of a period of moral turpitude which began to contaminate Iran from the [tenth and eleventh centuries AD] especially from the reign of the [Turkic] slave [kings] and the yellowskin Sinitic tribes."[10]


The practice was not without its critics, such as Sanai of Ghazni. The poet mocks the pederastic practices of his time, embodied in the doings of the Khvaja of Herat, who takes his catamite into the mosque for a quick tryst:

Not finding shelter he became perturbed,
The mosque, he reasoned, would be undisturbed.
But he is discovered by a devout man, who, in his blame, echoes a traditional attack on same-sex relations:

"These sinful ways of yours," —that was his shout—
Have ruined all the crops and caused the drought!
[11]
Sanai drives the irony home by having the devout man, after the Khvaja makes his embarrassed escape, mount the boy and complete the act.

Dick Davis comments, "A further cultural barrier, and one that can prove particularly difficult to negotiate, is the prevalence of the cult of pederasty in much medieval Persian verse." He notes that many translators have taken advantage of the fact that pronouns are not gender specific but notes that the translator "in availing himself of this help he is, as he knows, often fudging the issue, quietly bowdlerizing the texts."[2] This is held to be true even of major works, such as the Gulistan (Rose Garden) of Sa'adi. English translators even in the tamer episodes of the "Gulistan" turn boys into girls and change anecdotes about pederasty into tales of heterosexual love. [12]

John Fryer, who traveled to Persia in the late seventeenth century, was of the opinion that "The Persians, when they let go their modesty.. covet boys as much as women." The notoriety of the Persians for boyish pleasures was such that in the late nineteenth century Richard Francis Burton referred to Central Asian pederasty as "the Persian vice." He confirmed the findings of Chardin, indicating that the boy bordellos continued to exist, adding that "the boys are prepared with extreme care by diet, baths, depilation, unguents and a host of artists in cosmetics." He accounted for the tastes of the Persians by postulating that the habit began in boyhood, when Persian boys used each other for sexual pleasure, in a game known as alish-takish. Later in life, after marrying and begetting children, "Paterfamilias returns to the Ganymede," according to Burton.[13]


As you can see there is tolerance and balance in Islam, unlike the slanders put out by the Zionists.

Posts: 13 | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Arwa:
^ Zionists

There were pornographic comics by Zionists displaying SS soilders and inmates in concentration camp. I can't find the link right now, but try to google.

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You are precisely right. The Zionists hide these facts while slandering Islam as an intolerant religion. but the informations below show this is not the case, exposing the zionists.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world

..
The Existence of Pederastic Love
Even if it is granted that literary works during the Ottoman period could be used as valid primary sources that reflect on the lifestyle of the habitants of the Ottoman Empire, Khaled El-Rouayheb expressed in another piece of his work, The Love of Boys in Arabic Poetry of the Early Ottoman Period, 1500 – 1800, that many historians “give readers the impression that many love poetry of that period usually portrayed female beloved.” In the aforementioned paper, El-Rouayheb later argued that “the portrayed beloved was often, perhaps most often, a male youth.” In summary, he based his arguments on the physical description, namely the beard, of the beloved, the name of the beloved, the usage of masculine gender terms when speaking of the beloved, and extra-poetic information attached to the poems.[14]

The following are excerpts from poems used for each of El-Rouayheb’s claim:

i. beard-down(‘idhār) - Ahmad al-Bahnasī (d. 1148/1735): There he is with the night of the face’s ‘idhār when it darkened.
ii. beloved’s name – Ibrāhīm al-Akramī (d. 1047/1638): After you, my desire ‘Ali, I’ve divorced of the vine and love poetry.
iii. the word “boy” – Muhammad al-Mahāsinī (d. 1062/1662): I fancy him, a lithesome boy of paradise.


[edit] Women-Lovers & Boy-Lovers
It is perhaps necessary to point out that the abundance of literary work which portrayed male beloveds does not warrant the hypothesis that male-male relationships were dominant over male-female relationships during the Ottoman period.[citation needed]

In fact, the existence of literary works with both women-lovers and boy-lovers would substantiate the prevalence of both the “categories” of lovers. An example of such a work would be Deli Birader’s ‘The Repeller of Grief and Remover of Anxiety’ – “a lengthy work in prose with several poems embedded in it.”[15] There are seven chapters in Birader’s work. Chapter 2 was titled “Boy-lovers and women-lovers”, chapter 3 was titled “How to enjoy the company of boys” and chapter 4 was titled “How to enjoy the company of girls”.

Since Birader’s work was perhaps targeted at the male population of contemporary society, hence, the existence of these chapters would, at most, imply the existence of women-lovers and boy-lovers in contemporary society but would indicate nothing about the ratio of women-lovers to boy-lovers.[citation needed]


[edit] Age Discrimination – Beardless Boys and Downy-Cheeked Youth
In many of the poems with boy-beloveds, there seems to be a distinction in the age of the boy-beloveds, namely, between beardless boys and downy-cheeked youths, where authors often expressed preference for one over the other.

Syrian scholar Muhammad Khalīl al-Murādī “devoted 12 pages of his biographical work to reproducing a tract … entitled ‘Throwing off the reins in describing the devoid of, and the embellished with, beard-down’ … [which depicts] a disputation in which the beardless boy and the downy-cheeked youth advance their respective boasts as to who was the most appropriate object of passionate love.”[16] The following excerpts of poems also exemplify the correlation between age and beauty in the minds of the authors.

‘Abd al-Hayy al-Khāl (d. 1117/1705): I used to say that my heart would forget [you] when ‘ārid[17] appeared on your cheeks
Mustafā al-Sumādī (d. 1137/1725): If beard-down appears on the cheeks of the beloved, it will leave him dusted and dried

In chapter 3 – ‘How to enjoy the company of boys’ – of Deli Birader’s ‘The Repeller of Grief and Remover of Anxiety’, Birader described a few group of lovers – those that find beauty in exquisite boys, those who love güzeshte (boys who have passed puberty), those who think of “beauties who has already grown black and thick moustaches” and another who strive to find old men with white beards. [18] These examples imply how contemporary authors’ preference for male subjects was defined by the age of the subjects.


[edit] Sodomy & Islam
Perhaps one of the most abstruse aspects of male-male relationship in the Ottoman Empire is its coexistence with the Islamic law, which according to a number of historians today condemns “homosexuality”.

Historian Marshall Hodgson wrote that in medieval Islamic civilization,

“despite strong Shar‘i disapproval, the sexual relations of a mature man with a subordinate youth were so readily accepted in upper-class circles… The fashion entered poetry, especially the Persian.”

..
It is tremendously important to remember that when discussing about male-male relationships during the Ottoman period, the modern perception of homosexuality should not be imposed without hesitation. Khaled El-Rouayheb suggested that what Islamic law prohibits is sexual intercourse between men -sodomy, and that Islamic religious scholars of that period clearly did not believe that falling in love with a boy or expressing love in poetry was also illicit.[19] Perhaps by taking a look at Deli Birader’s ‘The Repeller of Grief and Remover of Anxiety’, El-Rouayheb’s claim can be better understood. The following is an excerpt from the third chapter of Birader’s work:

He confronts a silver ass
And attains all he desires
All at once, he raises his gown
And take the silver dome in front
Then he makes his cock as hard as a rock
And plunges it up to the black hair at its base,
These are then names contemptible lovers, and the leader of sinners, lûtî, gulâmpâre,[20] ‘white money black face.’

Their beloved may prevent them from verifying his to the point and contend themselves with being next to him, now sucking his lips, now embracing him, and their foolish hearts are deluded by him: He gets a playful beloved
He follows the path of loyalty in love
His limit should be fooling around
He should never cross this limit
He should pull him aside, into his embrace
And delude his foolish heart with that much
These are then named as loyal lovers, and favorable sweethearts, mahbub-perest, a a double side drum ...


[21]

Through the contemporary author, Birader, it can be deduced that society was perhaps less tolerant towards carnal affection between two men, which was probably perceived to be prohibited by Islamic laws at that time, and more tolerant towards love between two men who are celibate. This concept of societal mindset would explain the profusion of poetry describing love for a male-beloved in an Islamic society.

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Originally posted by Arwa:
No wonder Zionism and Nazism are same thing. That is why it does not make any sense to engage with these people: racists - extremists - supremacists who suffer mental illness.

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All the more reason people should be on their guard against any ideologgoies that seek to portray Islam as intolerant. today we have better informations on the subject. Note in the article below, how the bumbling American imperialists fail to understand Islamic culture and its tolerance.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world
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Bathhouses and Coffeehouses

Tellak
Detail of an illustration from the Hubanname (The Book of the Handsome Ones), an eighteenth century homoerotic work by the Turkish poet Fazyl bin Tahir EnderuniThere exist primary sources that indicate the hiring of handsome boys as workers in bathhouses(hammam) and coffeehouses. These objectifications of handsome boys in Early Modern Ottoman would further substantiate an Ottoman society that had a fair toleration towards non-carnal affection towards boys. Cam Hobhouse, in his travels, came across the following verses, written on the window of a hammam probably describing a worker of the hammam (tellak):

Dear Youth, whose form and face unite
To lead my sinful soul astray;
Whose wanton willing looks invite
To every bliss, and teach the way,
Ah spare thyself, thyself and me,
Withhold the too-distracting joy;
Ah cease so fair and fond to be,
And look less lovely, or more coy.[24]


Also, the following is an excerpt of a poem praising the beauty of a coffeehouse waiter (Sāqī) called Ibrāhīm al-Suyūrī in the Dīwān of ‘Ināyātī’s poetry:

Come, let us polish our rusty souls with the Ibrahimic visage.
Come, let us gaze at the luminous moon which puts the bright sun to shame.
Come, let us look at the tender branch, swaying in radiant garments.
Come, let us take the cup from the lavish hand… [25]


Nonetheless, it should not be implied that sexual activity was conducted with these workers.

A Damascene scholar Muhammad Najm al-Dīn al-Ghazzī once commented:

Consensus has now been reached that it [coffee] is permissible in itself. As for passing it around like an alcoholic beverage, and playing musical instruments in association with it, and taking it from handsome beardless boys while looking at them and pinching their behinds, there is no doubt as to its prohibition.[26]


Central Asia

Dance of a bacchá (dancing boy)
Samarkand, (ca 1905 - 1915), photo S. M. Prokudin-Gorskii. Library of Congress, Washington, DC.In central Asia the practice is reputed to have long been widespread. The paragon of the practice can be said to be the love between Mahmood of Ghazni and his slave, Ayaz. The Sultan is seen as an example of the man who, because of the power of his love, becomes "a slave to his slave." Ayaz came to be recognized as the ideal beloved, and a model of purity in Sufi literature. The two have gained pride of place among the favorite pairs of lovers in Persian literature. Modern scholars, such as Prods Oktor Skjœrvø, the Aga Khan Professor of Iranian at Harvard University, consider the relationship between the two to have been one example of the pederasty practiced at the Turkish Courts: "Under the Turkish Ghaznavid, Seljuq, and Khawarazmshah rulers of Iran in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, pederasty was quite common in courtly circles." [3]

In the Terminal Essay of his translation of the Arabian Nights, Richard Francis Burton notes that, "The Afghans are commercial travellers on a large scale and each caravan is accompanied by a number of boys and lads almost in woman's attire with kohl'd eyes and rouged cheeks, long tresses and henna'd fingers and toes, riding luxuriously in Kajawas or camel-panniers: they are called Kuch-i safari, or travelling wives, and the husbands trudge patiently by their sides." Burton also reports a pederastic proverb common in the area: Women for breeding, boys for pleasure, but melons for sheer delight.[28]

Though no longer widely practiced, such boy marriages nevertheless still occur. However, in part as a result of resurgent Islamic fundamentalism, they are less well received than in former times. In late 2005, the Afghan refugee Liaquat Ali, 42, and his Pakistani beloved, Markeen Afridi, 16, were both threatened with death by the tribal elders, subsequent to their public and ceremonial wedding in the Tribal Territories.(The Sydney Morning Herald)

In the aftermath of the US-Afghan war, western mainstream media have reported derisively on patterns of adult/adolescent male relationships, documented in Kandahar in Afghanistan (The New Yorker) and in Pakistan (The Boston Globe), often conflating them with pedophilia. The youth in these relationships, usually in his early- to mid-teens, is known alternatively as haliq, "beautiful boy," or ashna, "dear friend," and the man as mehboob, "lover," from the Persian mohabbat, "love," related to its Arabic counterpart, mahabbâh. The term balkay, referring to a beardless boy sexually available to men has also been reported.[29] The prevalence of homosexual relationships in Kandahar and other Pashtun areas has been explained in these articles as a behavior resulting from strict gender segregation (Los Angeles Times) and "without any moral or educational value."

These reports however have been characterized as "privileging a political spin over more precise and informative writing," and as suffering from ethnocentric bias (Stephanie Skier, in queer.). Brian James Baer, writing in the Gay and Lesbian Review (March-April, 2003), claimed that "their subtext was clearly aimed at discrediting the Pashtun tradition by equating it with the ultimate American taboo, adult sex with minors," and that "Western journalists insisted on reducing relationships that are often long-term emotional bonds to a crude sexual bargain." In contrast, alternative media have carried accounts by native sources describing married men engaging youths in mutually affectionate long term relationships.

Besides relationships following the pederastic model, cases of sexual brutality by men against youths - in this instance as one aspect of the military use of children - have also been documented. In Afghanistan, out of the thousands of Pakistani boys recruited by mullahs under the guise of jihad to fight for the Taliban, it is thought that about 1500 survived, only to be held for ransom in private jails, where they were being systematically abused J. Gettleman in the L. A. Times, July 2001. Also, commercial sexual exploitation of boys in Pakistan is reported to be widespread despite the fact that prostitution of minors is illegal and there is a death penalty for child abusers, according to the Bangkok-based international child protection campaign group, ECPAT (End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes).

In the northern, Turkic-speaking areas, one manifestation of the pederastic tradition were the entertainers known as bacchá (a Turkic Uzbeki term etymologically related to the Persian bachcheh, "boy" or "child", sometimes with the connotation of "catamite"). A bacchá, typically an adolescent, was a performer practiced in erotic songs and suggestive dancing. He wore resplendent attire and makeup, and would also be available as a sex worker. These Muslim bachás were trained from childhood and carried on their trade until their beard began to grow. Though after the Russian conquest the tradition was suppressed by tsarist authorities, early Russian explorers were able to document the practice.

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Originally posted by The Explorer:
Just curious: Flaco, are you by any chance "related" to King?

Anyway, how about getting back to what I had asked of you, with regards to the very same suras [you cited here] that King also interestingly posted in another thread [in the exact same format] in the "Religion" section?

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I am no relation to King at all, and if he post some references from one article to another that is done all the time here. the suras have already been posted and are there for references. why do you ask for them again? they are here and in the other threads for you to look up. refer to the informations below as shown for many other references to this topic. See also the many references also prepared by aboken. This is why the American imperialists will fail in the Middle east. they do not understand the culture.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world

Sufi outlook

Youth conversing with suitors
Miniature illustration from the Haft Awrang of Jami, in the story A Father Advises his Son About Love. Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.Main articles: Nazar ill'al-murd and Homosexuality and Islam


The manifestations of pederastic attraction vary. At one extreme they are indeed of a chaste nature, incorporated into Islamic mysticism (see Sufism) as a meditation known in Arabic as Nazar ill'al-murd, "contemplation of the beardless," or Shahed-bazi, "witness play" in Persian. This is seen as an act of worship intended to help one ascend to the absolute beauty that is God through the relative beauty that is a boy. Modern Sufi thought asserts that this contemplation uses imaginal yoga to transmute erotic desire into spiritual consciousness.

Richard Francis Burton, in his "Terminal Essay" (Part D) to the Arabian Nights claims that Easterners value the love of boys above the love of women, using Persian terminology in which the moth and the bulbul (nightingale) represent the lover, and the taper and the rose represent the boy and the girl, respectively: "Devotion of the moth to the taper is purer and more fervent than the Bulbul's love for the Rose."

In an illuminated manuscript of Sufi poet Abdul-Rahman Jami's (1414-1492) Haft Awrang (see manuscript), an anthology of seven allegorical poems on wisdom and love, there is a calligraphed verse in the section titled A Father Advises his Son About Love (in which a father instructs his son, when choosing a worthy male lover, to chose that man who sees beyond the mere physical and expresses a love for his inner qualities). The verse exemplifies one Sufi way of turning love into wisdom:

I have written on the wall and door of every house
About the grief of my love for you.
That you might pass by one day
And read the state of my condition.
In my heart I had his face before me.
With this face before me, I saw what I had in my heart.


Nazar was a principal expression of a male love that, according to the teachings, was not to be consummated physically.

Not all followed the teachings to the letter. On being challenged by Rabi’a al-‘Adawiyya (c.717-801) of Basrah (Sufi woman saint who first set forth the doctrine of mystical love), upon noticing him kissing a boy, for appreciating the beauty of boys above that of God, the ascetic Sufi Rabah al-Qaysi retorted that, "On the contrary, this is a mercy that God Most High has put into the hearts of his slaves." (Abu 'Abdur-Rahman as-Sulami, pp. 78-79) Others also suspected the motives of dervishes who professed to love only the appearance of the boys, as reflected in this Egyptian proverb: In his father's home a boy's chastity is safe, but let him become a dervish and the buggers will queue up behind him. [30]

Conservative Muslim theologians condemned the custom of contemplating the beauty of young boys. Their suspicions may have been justified, as some dervishes boasted of enjoying far more than "glances", or even kisses. Nazar was denounced as rank heresy by such as Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328), who complained, "They kiss a slave boy and claim to have seen God!" The real danger to conventional religion, as Peter Lamborn Wilson asserts, was not so much the mixing of sodomy with worship, but "the claim that human beings can realize themselves in love more perfectly than in religious practices." Despite opposition from the clerics, the practice has survived in Islamic countries until only recent years, according to Murray and Roscoe. See References section below


[edit] Modern scholarship
The traditional tolerance, literary and religious, for chaste pederastic love affairs which was prevalent since the 800s began to be eroded in the mid-1800s by the adoption of European Victorian attitudes by the new westernized elite.[citation needed] Historical material is reported to be systematically distorted.[citation needed] In his monograph on same-sex relations in the pre-modern Middle East, Khaled El-Rouayheb demonstrates how Persian and Arabic love poetry and other literary material is routinely heterosexualized or devalued in critical studies authored by post-colonial Arab and Islamic scholars.[31] Similarly, the works of Abu Nuwas, widely available in their entirety in the Arab world until modern times, were first published in expurgated form in Cairo in 1932.[32]

In his monograph on same-sex relations in the pre-modern Middle East, Khaled El-Rouayheb demonstrates how Persian and Arabic love poetry and other literary material is routinely heterosexualized or devalued in critical studies authored by post-colonial Arab and Islamic scholars. (El-Rouhayeb, 2005) Under the rule of both the Pahlavi dynasty monarchy and the Islamic Republic in Iran, Janet Afary claims that "Classical Persian literature — like the poems of Attar (died 1220), Rumi (d. 1273), Sa’di (d. 1291), Hafez (d. 1389), Jami (d. 1492), and even those of the 20th century Iraj Mirza (d. 1926) — are replete with homoerotic allusions, as well as explicit references to beautiful young boys and to the practice of pederasty." She further states that "professors of literature have been forced to teach that these extraordinarily beautiful gay love poems aren’t really gay at all and that their very explicit references to same-sex love are really all about men and women." [4][33]

Two Western scholars ignore such material. In a 1999 review in The Spectator of an anthology of Classical Arabic literature, the reviewer, R.I. Penguin, says of the author's editorial decision to focus on nature poems if a featured author: "Irwin is to be admired for sticking to a fair-minded overview of the whole field; Sanawbari's work, for instance, is described thus: 'Besides nature poems, he also produced mudhakarat, or poems addressed to small boys. However, in this anthology we will stick to the nature poems.' Quite right; the nature poems are much more interesting." Irwin also notes that "...there are some practices in the poetic language which sound bizarre, like the convention that if the metre demands it, the masculine pronoun may be substituted for the feminine one, with deeply confusing results in love poetry. The Arabs were fairly polymorphously perverse, but probably not so much as their love poetry makes them sound." [34]

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Originally posted by Flaco:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:

Just curious: Flaco, are you by any chance "related" to King?

Anyway, how about getting back to what I had asked of you, with regards to the very same suras [you cited here] that King also interestingly posted in another thread [in the exact same format] in the "Religion" section?

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I am no relation to King at all, and if he post some references from one article to another that is done all the time here.

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quote:

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the suras have already been posted and are there for references. why do you ask for them again?

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quote:

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they are here and in the other threads for you to look up.

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quote:

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refer to the informations below as shown for many other references to this topic.

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