posted
What if history had take a different turn,the Nile Valley had not fallen,Rome remained a village,the Abrahamic religion.remained a strickly tribal affair.would we be sending men to the moon,living in mega cities,producing nuclear bombs,and energy plants.or would the world looked exactly liked it did say 5000yrs ago? this just a mental excerise,pure fun. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Interesting. One author has created a book about it. "Lions Blood" - Steven Barnes
"The story is set in an alternate history world where Islamic African nations are the dominant world power, with colonies in Europe and the New World, commonly referred to by the characters as Bilalistan instead of North America. The dominant nations are Egypt which is still ruled by the Pharaohs and Abyssinia which is controlled by a monarch known as the Immortal Empress. Due to the destruction of Rome by Carthage and Egypt in 200 B.C., Europe remained largely tribal while Africa advanced technologically and culturally with steamboats, rifles and airships or "flying boats" by the late 19th century. The dominant Africans consider Europeans to be inferior and treat them as a source of slave labour which is supplied to them by Viking raiders. Southern Africa is controlled by the Zulus while the Vikings control much of Northern Europe."
I have not read this book.
Another thing i thought about is what if there was an isolated oasis somewhere in the desert of Egypt where there was a small group of Egyptians, still practicing the old ways and speaking the Ancient language.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Wow i have to pay a visit to my local book store i wonder if there is any movie script writers out there reading this.lol i love the idea of North American as Bilalistan,go N.O.I Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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4000yrs of being one of the most advance people in the world will NEVER be repeated.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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or Islam. . . .for 700yrs
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Astenb. you may have your very own novel in your head, think about it modern Egypt is in cheos, a small band of of Egyptians in your desret calling themselves kemites belives the time is right to return the land back order,the people are tired of their asiatic religions and politics they crave a return to their past glory,but the leaders are brutal as they are corrupt.mean while the Kemites in their deseret osais plot their return. btw if write the book give some chadder Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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I dont think it impossible. There are most certainly people that live isolated in South America. In other places in Africa they haven't ever seen a 'foreigner' and their languages are so rare that they can become extinct : Ongota, in southern Ethiopia has only like 5-10 speakers......Once they die if the language is not passed on it will join Ancient Egyptian as a branch of AfroAsiatic that didn't survive.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Good morning Astenb,well of course it's not impossible, even in metro cities in Egypt it self there maybe some pheronic era practices going on, i think the former mod. Ausar mentions a practice called Zar,and the same may have happened in Somalia/Ethopia under the name Azar.also there is a festival in Cairo? that reminds us of the Opet festival of ancient times also if you check out the Ethiopian Timkat festival you will see the priest beating their drums, shaking their sistrums and carring what supposed to be a replica of an ark alomst like you would find on the wall on the island of Philae.so no the idea is not farfeched.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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if the Abrahamic religion.remained a strickly tribal affair.would we be sending men to the moon,living in mega cities,producing nuclear bombs,and energy plants.or would the world looked exactly liked it did say 5000yrs ago?
Well this question depends on what would've happened instead.
What in place of religion would have organized so many people? Religion is extra crucial to the way the world is now and how it got there.
I think we'll get it right eventually, though. I used to view Km.t [nwt] ("black society") and Kemu as the antithesis to modern "Western civilization" and Westerners. But now it's starting to seem like one big process.
posted
Thanks Freehand for the link.will i guess for better or worst the Abrahamic religions provided the glue that kept widely different peoples togeather, well sorta anyways. most African non Abrahamic religions do not go around actively seeking converts, because at it's base even the complex Kemetic religions remains some what ancestral.i mean if you are going to gather information and coorperation from across the globe,then a universal religion maybe the way to go.the Greeks tried that with Sarapis,the Romans at 1st with the caesars as a universal god but that was weak,so later they went with the cross.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: What if history had take a different turn,the Nile Valley had not fallen,Rome remained a village,the Abrahamic religion.remained a strickly tribal affair.would we be sending men to the moon,living in mega cities,producing nuclear bombs,and energy plants.or would the world looked exactly liked it did say 5000yrs ago? this just a mental excerise,pure fun.
My question to you is what use is sendeng someone to the Moon or using Nuclear weapons. The question is would our people be INTERESTED in such things as Nuclear Weapons and Going to the Moon. The people of the Nile LIVED in Mega Cities...Memphis is rumored to have benn larger than the City of Rome and Thebes and Karnack, Merowe, are examples in my opinion. If there was no rome Europe would have remained tribal. There are plenty of Examples of the Egyptians and Abbysinians Sailing around the Mediterainian and Africa...They could have spread African Civilization throught Africa. Also you have to take into account other Asian civilizations such as Persia and China etc. that were advanced during the Nile Valley Era...also what of the American Civs. could the set Colonies IN EUROPE... To say that things would be the same..to even imagine that concept is Eurocentric thinking....The World would go on WITHOUT Europe.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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well Jari-Ankhamun,that's the point why would'nt they split the atom or go to the moon,and when i say mega cities i am talking of the order modern N.Y.,i was thinking of the Abrahamic religions themselves,whitch imposed themselves on others by the hook or the crook,i believe Europeans were incidental to the faith.well Persia did became a multi-national super state not unlike new kingdom Kemet,it still lacked that glue.China made great strides and could have formed that universal empire,they instead moth balled their fleets walled themselves up and restrict forigners to off shore trading post. now i am not saying it's a better world we have today,for there are plenty of signs that we maybe heading in the wrong direction,right now it seem we have three choices 1:reduce ower numbers 2:send ower excess population else where 3:brace for extinction.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Splitting atoms and going to the moon depend on the level of understing of what an atom is, and the level of understanding of thermal dynamic, engines, and gravity.
They knew things we don't and much of what we know that they knew was transferred to Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, etc or picked up recently.
They viewed things from a different perspective. Perspective can be everything. With light, for instance, there are certain phenomena that can only be explained by the "wave" model, and others only by the "particle" model. For instance: if they did begin to think about matter as in detail as we do, they might not just now be realizing that "space" is not "void/empty".
posted
Jari, the world would have gone on without Europe but it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day. Anything of value in Africa or Asia was either crought by the British Empire or American business. Greece, Rome, Britain, America.... The central thrust of the progress of the human race.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Jari, the world would have gone on without Europe but it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day. Anything of value in Africa or Asia was either crought by the British Empire or American business. Greece, Rome, Britain, America.... The central thrust of the progress of the human race.
People please, do not acknowledge or take this insecure, erroneous, and grammatically challenged individual above (who's supposed to be a high school history teacher) seriously.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: What if history had take a different turn,the Nile Valley had not fallen,Rome remained a village,the Abrahamic religion.remained a strickly tribal affair.would we be sending men to the moon,living in mega cities,producing nuclear bombs,and energy plants.or would the world looked exactly liked it did say 5000yrs ago? this just a mental excerise,pure fun.
My question to you is what use is sendeng someone to the Moon or using Nuclear weapons. The question is would our people be INTERESTED in such things as Nuclear Weapons and Going to the Moon. The people of the Nile LIVED in Mega Cities...Memphis is rumored to have benn larger than the City of Rome and Thebes and Karnack, Merowe, are examples in my opinion. If there was no rome Europe would have remained tribal. There are plenty of Examples of the Egyptians and Abbysinians Sailing around the Mediterainian and Africa...They could have spread African Civilization throught Africa. Also you have to take into account other Asian civilizations such as Persia and China etc. that were advanced during the Nile Valley Era...also what of the American Civs. could the set Colonies IN EUROPE... To say that things would be the same..to even imagine that concept is Eurocentric thinking....The World would go on WITHOUT Europe.
The scenario is not at all farfetched. China was the most advanced technological and economic power in the world into the 1400s. As we all know Europe made heavy use of Chinese inventions. It was China that provided numerous technological keys to European hegemony like printing (storage and spread of information and literacy), gunpowder (weapons from rifles to artillery to bombs) and accurate compasses (navigation of ocean spanning ships). And that's only three..
The Islamic world was to also get the gain of such developments as well as innovate its own. In Africa the Egyptians pioneered a number of things, from government to architecture. Further south innovations in steel making for example are shown.
I don't think Europe would have simply remained tribal though. Perhaps it would have been absorbed into colonies by the African and Asian powers, paying tribute in raw materials, labor etc.. If Europe didnt exist, it would make little difference. History shows that non-European peoples were well on the road to high technological and economic growth, even before the Arabs. If I remember one estimate, China produced about 20% of the world's output way back when.. rivalling what major Western economies do today. Even in the modern era as a matter of fact, China is a giant, and little Japan, without much natural resources, is an economic superpower.
DATA: "The Financial Times noted that "China has been the world’s largest economy for 18 of the past 20 centuries",[5][6] while according to The Economist, "China was not only the largest economy for much of recorded history, but until the 15th century, it also had the highest income per capita — and was the world’s technological leader."[5][7] Refs at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China
We are supposed to ooh and ahh at Columbus. But Columbus' ships were somewhat less than impressive compared to the massive, well engineered vessels of famous Chinese Admiral Cheng Ho- who made 7 long voyages by the way. Europe deserves props for its adaptation of the technology of others and then its own inventions and innovations. But if it never existed, the rest of the world would have managed quite well without it.
From the Economist: "In fact, China was the largest economy for much of recorded history. Until the 15th century, China had the highest income per head and was the technological leader. But then it suddenly turned its back on the world. Its rulers imposed strict limits on international trade and tightened their control on new technology. Measured by GDP per person it was overtaken by Europe by 1500, but it remained the world's biggest economy for long thereafter. In 1820 it still accounted for 30% of world GDP.." http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3219418Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day.
If that were true, there would be no "Medieval" to speak of, nor "Neolithic". In fact, if that were true, you would not be writing...since Europeans are not using any writing that is native to Europe!
Hint: To move to the Neolithic, "change" occurred, and the same applies to the so-called Medieval era technological strides that Europeans took advantage of.
And indeed, the fact that the world would go on without European expansions, is testament to the fact that European scholars need to make a "dark age" out of the medieval era.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: China was the most advanced technological and economic power in the world until about the 1300s. As we all know Europe made heavy use of Chinese inventions.
What are you basing this on? There is a reason the Afro-Arab world were the ones expanding at this point in time on that side of the world, as exemplified by "Moorish" Europe, as opposed to the Chinese, don't you think?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day.
If that were true, there would be no "Medieval" to speak of, nor "Neolithic". In fact, if that were true, you would not be writing...since Europeans are not using any writing that is native to Europe!
Hint: To move to the Neolithic, "change" occurred, and the same applies to the so-called Medieval era technological strides that Europeans took advantage of.
And indeed, the fact that the world would go on without European expansions, is testament to the fact that European scholars need to make a "dark age" out of the medieval era.
Indeed, and I've noted this during my many exchanges with this fraudulent character, the Neolithic Revolution is what advanced southern Europe from their hunter gatherer status.
Of course of note is that the places of which had an ancient civilization in Europe, were those closest to Africa and south West Asia, and of course still carry these same African and south West Asian genetic markers in relatively high frequencies to this day.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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The American comedian is trying to suggest Europeans are the only agent of technological change, which is just plainly ridiculous. Technological change outside of Europe is what led to Europe becoming literate and host to food-producing societies. It goes to say, at the most elementary level of thinking, that "Non-Europeans" contrary to the American comic's fantasy, are not predisposed to being socially stagnant, and therefore cannot technologically progress without Europeans.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The American comedian is trying to suggest Europeans are the only agent of technological change, which is just plainly ridiculous. Technological change outside of Europe is what led to Europe becoming literate and host to food-producing societies. It goes to say, at the most elementary level of thinking, that "Non-Europeans" contrary to the American comic's fantasy, are not predisposed to being socially stagnant, and therefore cannot technologically progress without Europeans.
Precisely, and all of the ideological and hierarchical nonsense crumbles when the facts of reality object to their fantasy.
Hence, their only reply is an ad hominem.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ok all of the above civilizations made advances but i think us "moderns" are unique in that we do not put nature first,we are almost totally dependent on our technology to save us,so we keep inventing more and more at the expense of a more holistic approach,btw notice i said our technology because it is the collective knownlage of all of the worlds prior civilizations improved upon that got us where we are.however i do believe a more holistic more conservative approach would take us a much longer time to get us to this point.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I think it is kind of naive to ask if history were different, what would happen. It isn't, and that just it. "Could have, should have", is all but futile. History, however, serves to help us understand what went wrong, and how to fix it, or avoid the problem in the future, if analyzed honestly in its proper context, and not just making stuff up to boost egos.
Ps - Making history up is like lying to oneself; you cannot solve a problem, by pretending it never existed. It starts by acknowledging that it exists or existed, learning about its nature thereof, and then going about fixing it.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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@ MindoverMatter718. well to find that out we would have to go back to the first historical lie. btw when did people started knowingly lie about history. but to your question i believe a more just world, for that would be almost as good as people not lying.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Well lying equals cover up cover ups smacks of corruption,corruption allow people to steal,sometimes nations, sometimes entire continents. eg: South Africa was empty of people save but a few bands of nomads before Europeans got there.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Well lying equals cover up cover ups smacks of corruption,corruption allow people to steal,sometimes nations, sometimes entire continents.
Ok, regardless, what does this have to do with if history were told correctly?
quote:Originally posted by ackee: eg: South Africa was empty of people save but a few bands of nomads before Europeans got there.
According to whom?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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It should be always noted that history is written by those who control.
But more often than not, those who have such control over the dissemination of history, actually know what the truths actually are themselves, but they relate it differently to a target audience, so as to cloud thinking, i.e. to stall said target audience from questioning authority, and thereby shaking up the status quo that they [those who control] deem beneficial to them. So, they are not *deceiving themselves* of actual history; but rather, they seek to deceive the unsuspecting, of these facts, from which lessons can be drawn, and lead way for appropriate action.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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everything.if they did'nt lie they could'nt pretend they had a legal or moral right to the land. that the people there had right to take their land back. also in neighbouring Zimbabwe that cultivatable land lay idle because the "natives" do not cultivate. 2nd question according to whom? so says the pre Mandela regime.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: everything.if they did'nt lie they could'nt pretend they had a legal or moral right to the land. that the people there had right to take their land back. also in neighbouring Zimbabwe that cultivatable land lay idle because the "natives" do not cultivate.
It's well known that Europeans made treaties with Native Americans and reneged on these treaties, history is well documented.
quote:Originally posted by ackee: 2nd question according to whom? so says the pre Mandela regime.
Source, please.
Btw, note, ackee I am not attacking you, but rather seeking for you to expand your thought on a premise similar to thread you started.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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But more often than not, those who have such control over the dissemination of history, actually know what the truths actually are themselves, but they relate it differently to a target audience, so as to cloud thinking, i.e. to stall said target audience from questioning authority, and thereby shaking up the status quo that they [those who control] deem beneficial to them. So, they are not *deceiving themselves* of actual history; but rather, they seek to deceive the unsuspecting, of these facts, from which lessons can be drawn, and lead way for appropriate action.
Btw, the end effect of obscurity is the same nevertheless; it comes back to bite one -- who is doing the obscuring -- in the behind, because the underlying forces that gave rise to a problem were placed under a rug, as though they didn't happen as they did, instead of openly acknowledging and addressing said problems in their proper historical context. Whenever one pretends a problem doesn't exist, even if one knows the facts to be the contrary, it necessitates one to do what it takes to "obscure" said problem, which often means, leaving it unaddressed in its proper context.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yes Explorer,the lie that say african got to the cape the sametime as the Euros.must of given many a would be freedom fighters to pause for a second,do we really belong to this land. Great Zimbabwe was striped off it's objects of Gold and other items deemed worthy because the lie was in did'nt belonged to the locals anyway.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Well, it seems to me that such a lie would have been more targeted towards young European minds, than the Africans themselves, don't you think?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I think it is kind of naive to ask if history were different, what would happen. It isn't, and that just it. "Could have, should have", is all but futile. History, however, serves to help us understand what went wrong, and how to fix it, or avoid the problem in the future, if analyzed honestly in its proper context, and not just making stuff up to boost egos.
On second thought, I take back what I said above; perhaps I should phrase it this way: Exploring alternative routes to historical events are only useful, *as long as* we don't delve into high or a spectacular degree of speculation, utilizing tangible historical evidence along the analysis, in such a way that allows us to understand *actual* historical forces in their true context, thereby understanding what went wrong, the nature of the what went wrong or how so, and thereafter, arrive at how to go about fixing it or avoiding the same route to similar fate in the future. So this time around, I've added a caveat to the question.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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...They could have spread African Civilization throught Africa.
Speaking of history, almost missed this bit...
Why...because other areas of Africa lacked "African civilization" throughout Africa?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ok made it to work "whew".ok MindoverMatter right off the top of my head without running to Wiki. Henary Luis Gates,in his documentary Wonders Of The African World. for others i would have to digup articles on the subject of populating South Africa. part 3 btw.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I have to agree with TAP here. . . to some extent. . .and me being an "AfroCentric".
Not sure many here got my earlier point. The length of "world" domination has been decreasing over time. AE ~ 4000yrs. Islam ~ 700yrs. Spain ~ 200yrs. British ~ 100yrs. USA ~ 15yrs? One World Government ???yrs.
Got to admit with TAP the west(modern Europeans) has brought a different perpsective on humanity. Because of that they took the world in a different direction. They have utilized and capitalized on the discoveries (math and science) by others. Their scorced earth mentality(no regard for nature)has had it's benefits. Not sure they know how to stop now.
Not sure where we are heading but I am enjoying the ride.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Jari, the world would have gone on without Europe but it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day. Anything of value in Africa or Asia was either crought by the British Empire or American business. Greece, Rome, Britain, America.... The central thrust of the progress of the human race.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Regarding "where we are heading" when you take Obama as a factor you see that the world seems to be starting the cycle all over again ... AE ~ 4000yrs.
-------------------- state of mind Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Got to admit with TAP the west(modern Europeans) has brought a different perpsective on humanity. Because of that they took the world in a different direction. They have utilized and capitalized on the discoveries (math and science) by others. Their scorced earth mentality(no regard for nature)has had it's benefits. Not sure they know how to stop now.
Agreement with TAP should have sent up an internal red flag that you're not thinking things through. One of the pillars of eurocentricism is the belief that they're responsible for "progress". Truth is that the world is verifiably worse off, on many different levels, because of Europe and America. The West has been nothing but a plague on the earth.
FYI. You should also re-examin your timelines for world domination. Some of the spans notably for Britain and the USA are way off. But its really six of one and half a dozen of the other: spain, britain, US: Western Imperialism, colonialism, genocide, racism. The worst savagery ever visited upon the earth.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Quote: Their scorced earth mentality(no regard for nature)has had it's benefits.
What do you think "no regard to nature" means? ie primitiveness and uncivil when dealing with nature. ie ALL life forms
The point being - we are HERE now. And I(me personally) like the technological age we are in. How we got here is a different story. Will things remain the way they are. . . I doubt it. We are already seeing a shift in power.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The ancients knew that you got to put back what you take out. It is all about balance.
What is it? Matter Remains Constant. Been out of school awhile.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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^The principle is called the conservation of matter: matter can neither be created nor destroyed by ordinary chemical means.
quote:@ Apocalypse - did you NOT read this:
Quote: Their scorced earth mentality(no regard for nature)has had it's benefits.
What do you think "no regard to nature" means? ie primitiveness and uncivil when dealing with nature. ie ALL life forms
You quoted American Patriot and prefaced his fascist ruminations by saying you agree with him. What in particular were you agreeing with?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yeah. . .that's it. Been awhile since my Introduction to Thermodynamics class.
-----Jari, the world would have gone on without Europe but it doubtless would have remained in a medieval or even neolithic state possibly even to this day.---- Agree
----The central thrust of the progress of the human race. ---Agree
Greed, barbary(slavery) and industrialization made the difference.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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"Lithic" refers to stone age and most of the world had exited the stone age without any assistance from Europe. Recall that Europe had been in the dark ages and emerged from it due to the Islamic occupation of Iberia. Would the world have remained medieval? Any answer would be purely speculative (nothing wrong with that however). I believe that when collective human knowledge reaches a critical mass - whoever holds power at that point plucks the fruit of that knowledge.
The notion that Europe is the engine of human progress is a poisonous notion that you must not buy into: writing, architecture, law, agriculture, mathematics, poetry and literature, philosophy, exquisite art: all of these were in abundance before the first European state (Greece)was ever formed.
One should also be critical of the idea of the "centrality" of the West.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
double post!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Anything of value in Africa or Asia was either crought by the British Empire or American business. Greece, Rome, Britain, America.... The central thrust of the progress of the human race.
American Patriot/Professor Hore speaks of human progress. There's a lot of irony in there.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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