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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Abstract:
Since the beginning of the Holocene, the Anatolian region has been a crossroads for populations and civilizations from Europe, Asia, and the Near to Middle East, with increasing interactions since the Bronze Age. In this context, we examine cranial discrete traits from a Byzantine population from southwest Turkey, excavated at the archeological site of Sagalassos; the site displays human occupation since the 12th millennium b.p. To investigate the biological history of this population, we analyzed the frequency distribution of 17 cranial discrete traits from Sagalassos and 27 Eurasian and African populations. Ward’s clustering procedure and multidimensional scaling analyses of the standardized mean measure of divergence (MMDst), based on trait frequencies, were used to represent the biological affinity between populations. Our results, considered within a large interpretive framework that takes into account the idea that populations are dynamic entities affected by various influences through time and space, revealed different strata of the Sagalassos biological history. Indeed, beyond an expected biological affinity of the Sagalassos population with eastern Mediterranean populations, we also detected affinities with sub-Saharan and northern and central European populations. We hypothesize that these affinity patterns in the Sagalassos biological package are the traces of the major migratory events that affected southwest Anatolia over the last millennia, as suggested from biological, archeological, and historical data.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: Indeed, beyond an expected biological affinity of the Sagalassos population with eastern Mediterranean populations, we also detected affinities with sub-Saharan and northern and central European populations.
Any proposals on the possible sources or causative for such affinities, say for instance, with sub-Saharan populations in the time frame under study, assuming they are not attributable to autochthonous expressions of intra-regional diversity.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"Keeping in mind these three elements, if we consider the affinity of the Sagalassos population with the sub-Saharan populations from Gabon and Somalia, a recent direct contact between these populations and regions probably can be excluded because they are seperated by significant geographic distances. However, indirect contacts through geographically intermediary populations carrying "sub-Saharan"biological features in the late Pleistocene-Holocene period are discussion points."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2004) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey(E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinnioglu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinnioglu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintanna-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile Valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)-show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004)following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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The Natufians, Are they still considered to be African or has that changed since people realized that the Natufians brought civilization to the Levent.
There was a Article that said the Natufians were "Negro" like.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"Following the numerous interactions among eastern Mediterranean and Levantine populations and regions, caused by the introduction of agriculture from the Levant into Anatolia and southeastern Europe, there was, beginning in the Bronze Age, a period of increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean, mainly during the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. These interactions resulted in the development of trading networks, military campaigns, and settler colonization. Major changes took place during this period, which may have accentuated or diluted the sub-Saharan components of earlier Anatolian populations. The second option seems more likely, because even though the population from Sagalassos territory was interacting with northeastern African and Levantine populations [trade relationships with Egypt (Arndt et al. 2003), involvement of thousands of mercanries from Pisidia (Sagalassos region) in the war around 300 B.C. between the Ptolemaic kingdom (centered in Egypt) and the Seleucid kingdom (Syria/Mesopotamia/Anatolia), etc.], the major cultural and population interactions involving the Anatolian populations since the Bronze Age occured with the Mediterranean populations form southeastern Europe, as suggested from historical and genetic data."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"Consequently, one may hypothesize as the most parsimonious explanation that sub-Saharan biological elements were introduced into the Anatolian populations after the Neolithic spread and have been preserved since this time, at least until the 11th-13th century A.D., in the population living in the Sagalassos territory of southwestern Anatolia. This scenario implies that the affinity between Sagalassos and the two sub-Saharan populations (Gabon and Somalia) is more likely due to the sharing of a common ancestor and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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So they actually admit that Early Anatolians were linked to Sub-Sahara. With more studies like these that come out, The African component seems to get bigger and bigger.
Is it safe to say that there was a coverup in that scholars tried to erase any sembelence of Africans being in these places before the slave trade?
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Is it safe to say that there was a coverup in that scholars tried to erase any sembelence of Africans being in these places before the slave trade?
Peace
Evergreen Writes: Peace, KING. You are correct, there is a definite cover up. A stolen legacy....
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"In this context it is likely that Bronze Age events may have facilitated the southward diffusion of populations carrying northern and central European biological elements and may have contributed to some degree of admixture between northern and central Europeans and Anatolians, and on a larger scale, between northeastern Mediterraneans and Anatolians. Even if we do not know which populations were involved, historical and archaeological data suggest, for instance, the 2nd millenium B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium B.C. of the Phrygians coming from Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid rule). The coming of the Dorians from Northern Greece and central Europe (the Dorians are claimed to be one of the main groups at the origin of the ancient Greeks) may have also brought northern and central European biological elements into southern populations. Indeed, the Dorians may have migrated southward to the Peloponnese, across the southern Aegean and Create, and later reached Asia Minor."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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so now what you want to make the turk negros to they are not they carry 1% L mtdna linages which other levantines carry in 10% they are caucasians in every sense of the word europeans hate them but they are caucasians defently not negros e3b1c1
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^ Aah Shut the f*ck up, you idiot! There were blacks long before then also, how do you think the Turks got their E1b1b from??
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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the turks gut there e1b1b1 from neolithic farmers who spread all; acros the near east the e1b1b1 carries were not negros or blacks they carry the slc24a5 derived allel which negros usually dont carry dont try to make them black they are not you also tried to make the greeks black you are the real idiot here e3b1c1
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
"In this context it is likely that Bronze Age events may have facilitated the southward diffusion of populations carrying northern and central European biological elements and may have contributed to some degree of admixture between northern and central Europeans and Anatolians, and on a larger scale, between northeastern Mediterraneans and Anatolians. Even if we do not know which populations were involved, historical and archaeological data suggest, for instance, the 2nd millenium B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium B.C. of the Phrygians coming from Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid rule). The coming of the Dorians from Northern Greece and central Europe (the Dorians are claimed to be one of the main groups at the origin of the ancient Greeks) may have also brought northern and central European biological elements into southern populations. Indeed, the Dorians may have migrated southward to the Peloponnese, across the southern Aegean and Create, and later reached Asia Minor."
Evergreen Writes: This back migration from Central and Northern Europe to the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant and Delta of Egypt is important in understanding the changing phenotype of the region. It was of course an iterative process.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Evergreen Writes: The following study may be of interest.
POST:
The earliest horse harnessing and milking.
Outram et al.
Science. 2009 Mar 6;323(5919):1332-5.
Horse domestication revolutionized transport, communications, and warfare in prehistory, yet the identification of early domestication processes has been problematic. Here, we present three independent lines of evidence demonstrating domestication in the Eneolithic Botai Culture of Kazakhstan, dating to about 3500 B.C.E. Metrical analysis of horse metacarpals shows that Botai horses resemble Bronze Age domestic horses rather than Paleolithic wild horses from the same region. Pathological characteristics indicate that some Botai horses were bridled, perhaps ridden. Organic residue analysis, using delta13C and deltaD values of fatty acids, reveals processing of mare's milk and carcass products in ceramics, indicating a developed domestic economy encompassing secondary products.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Evergreen Writes: This back migration from Central and Northern Europe to the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant and Delta of Egypt is important in understanding the changing phenotype of the region. It was of course an iterative process.
Back migration means that they were there first, then they went away, and then they came back.
Where does it say anything like that?
(Unless of course, you were talking about the Sea People, which you are not).
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Back migration means there had been migration from area A to area B such that past migration had been from area B to area A.
Not only were migrations Northward involving diffusion of "Neolithic" culture, but there was also the ice age during which Northern Europe moved to the Southern fringe, and then back North.
quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: the turks gut there e1b1b1 from neolithic farmers who spread all; acros the near east the e1b1b1 carries were not negros or blacks they carry the slc24a5 derived allel which negros usually dont carry dont try to make them black they are not you also tried to make the greeks black you are the real idiot here e3b1c1
slc24a5 derived allels were probably not carried North by the blasian Natufians.
Dates for origin of the deleterious mutations resulting in depigmentation that reach the Middle East by historic times are about 12,000-6,000 years ago dude, and in Europe/Western Eurasia no less.
This is around the time of the introduction of the Neolithic in the ME. It's very unlikely the genes originating between 12-6kya had spread to the ME let alone fully spread within their own originating population(s).
It likely comes with the back migration from Northern Europe, not the other way around.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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look man i am not that white either i can tan easily so i will not be surprised if i have the ancesteral slc24a5 but many e3b in the north like antolia the v13 guys in the balkan many of them carry derived slc24a5 and also slc45a2 which i would descried is the real caucasian skin verient since it almost absent from africa in contrast to slc24a5 e3b1c1
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Evergreen Writes: What we do know is that many of the neolithic migrants that moved into SW Europe and up the Danube were tropically adapted; indicative of a post LGM African origin.
Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions.
Gallagher et al.
Homo. 2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.
The transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe has been framed within a dichotomy of "regional continuity" versus exogenous "demic diffusion". While substantial genetic support exists for a model of demographic diffusion from an ancestral source in the Near East, archaeological data furnish weak support for the "wave of advance" model. Nevertheless, archaeological evidence attests the widespread introduction of an exogenous "package" comprising ceramics, cereals, pulses and domesticated animals to central Europe at 5600calBCE. Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens. Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme "hyper-polar" morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Hey genius what do you think. . .”””” geographically intermediary populations””” means "Keeping in mind .. .with the sub-Saharan populations from Gabon and Somalia, a recent direct contact between these populations and regions probably can be excluded because they are seperated by significant geographic distances. However, indirect contacts through geographically intermediary populations carrying "sub-Saharan"biological features in the late Pleistocene-Holocene period are discussion points."
quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: so now what you want to make the turk negros to they are not they carry 1% L mtdna linages which other levantines carry in 10% they are caucasians in every sense of the word europeans hate them but they are caucasians defently not negros e3b1c1
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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. . . . which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."
and Mike will like this. . . . and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample
@e3b1c1 - quote: look man i am not that white either !!!. Still don't get it. It is not about black or white. It is about the FACTS.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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and Mike will like this. . . . and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample
Evergreen Writes: This would also explain the genetic and phenetic differences between southern and northern Europeans who both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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and Mike will like this. . . . and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample
Evergreen Writes: This would also explain the genetic and phenetic differences between southern and northern Europeans who both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.
Well let us see exactly what these “increasing interactions” were.
It is About 1,200 B.C. (Near East Bronze age - (3300-1200 BC)
King Midas rules in Phrygia.
Armenians (not the modern Turk type Armenians), calling themselves "The Hayk" perhaps Dravidians from the Indus valley, displace the Urartians.
The Hatti rule in Central Anatolia.
Ramesses II fights the battle of Kadesh against the Hatti (NOT Hittite (fictional Empire) king Muwatalli II.
It is the 2nd dynasty of Isin in Sumer, but war still rages with Elam.
The White Hellenes/Dorians from Central Asia begin the invasion of Black Europe.
AS A CONSEQUENSE!
Mernenptah fights off the first attempt of invasion by the Sea People.
Ramesses III fights off the second attempt of invasion by the Sea People.
Evergreen wrote: This would also explain the genetic and phenetic differences between southern and northern Europeans who both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.
Evergreen - please explain what any of this has to do with ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.
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and Mike will like this. . . . and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample
Evergreen Writes: This would also explain the genetic and phenetic differences between southern and northern Europeans who both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.
Evergreen Writes: Here is the paper that discuss the "racial" differences between Northern and Southern Europeans.
Analysis and Application of European Genetic Substructure Using 300 K SNP Information
Chao Tian et al.
European population genetic substructure was examined in a diverse set of .1,000 individuals of European descent, each genotyped with .300 K SNPs. Both STRUCTURE and principal component analyses (PCA) showed the largest division/principal component (PC) differentiated northern from southern European ancestry . A second PC further separated Italian, Spanish, and Greek individuals from those of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry as well as distinguishing among northern European populations. In separate analyses of northern European participants other substructure relationships were discerned showing a west to east gradient. Application of this substructure information was critical in examining a real dataset in whole genome association (WGA) analyses for rheumatoid arthritis in European Americans to reduce false positive signals. In addition, two sets of European substructure ancestry informative markers (ESAIMs) were identified that provide substantial substructure information. The results provide further insight into European population genetic substructure and show that this information can be used for improving error rates in association testing of candidate genes and in replication studies of WGA scans.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mike you got to read between the lines. Don't call the brother out like that. But since you drew first blood. I tend to stay away from a bomb rush!!
What I am confused on is . . . "both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM". There seems to be a contradiction/hesitation.
Evergreen Writes: This would also explain the genetic and phenetic differences between southern and northern Europeans who both came out of ice-age refugiums in southern Europe following the LGM.Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I think the refugium theory supports a genetic and phenotypic diffrenec between northern/southern and central European.
I support the belief of modern scholars which says that HG-I is post LGM. Maybe only 6-10kya among northern Europeans. This correlates with the white skin . . . and the spread diffusion of the Germanic people and language.
I differ with Mike on the point. Similarly to Mininarmers view, I beleive the development took place in a cold, sunlight deprived place during the LGM.. . ie caves.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Xyyman – I see that your programming at the hands of White people makes it impossible for you to disassociate northern climate with skin color. This after mennimer and myself have patiently tried to deprogram you. Well, they say that a picture is worth a thousand words. I hope that is so, because this is my last ditch attempt to deprogram you.
Please note: The Laplanders, Sami, whatever they are called in different regions. Inhabit the NORTHERN MOST parts of the Planet Earth (and have done so for thousands of years). If lack of Sunlight or Cold could make a Humans skin White, then they would ALL be Snow White. You will notice that is NOT the case, as a matter of fact, some are quite DARK, including the Caucasians!!!
Please take the time to ponder why that might be so.
As the last Ice Age about 10,000 years ago and the large grazers such as the mammoths disappeared, wild reindeer become a key food for the peoples across northern Eurasia. For thousands of years, they hunted the reindeer (called caribou in North America). More recently, starting in southern Siberia, some of them adopted domestic reindeer herding and breeding. Across the Arctic from Scandinavia to Chukotka, native peoples such as Sami, Nenets, Evenk, Koryak and Chukchi were reindeer people.
Genetic data (White man bullsh1t, but I had to include something).
Anthropologists have been studying the Sámi people for hundreds of years for their assumed physical and cultural differences from the rest of Europeans. Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal linages of the Sámi people are the first Homo sapiens inhabitants of Europe and the second, descendants of common ancestors with Catalonians and the Basque people, one of the earliest inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula. The most common paternal linage among the Sami are possible ancestors originating from the Volga-Ural region who may represent a Finno-Ugric speaking people. The result being,of a population product of two lines of migration represented by each gender,met at some point in History in the same area (or a former one,perhaps near by).Being the one represented by the female Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups the more sedentary,or local,the one with western origins more in common with other europeans,and the male Y-DNA haplogroups the ones with an eastern origin more in common with other western Asian,Uralic peoples.At which point in History,and how it came to be,is an interesting question that however shows a much earlier date than the arrival of other human groups to the region,and maybe much southern in geography,as other archaeological finds perhaps related to the Saami have been found of earlier ages in southern parts of Scandinavia.
Continued on next frame.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^Okay, I have given you time to ponder why that might be so. And I know that you probably got it wrong, so I will tell you. White skin is a result of Albinism. As demonstrated by the Laplanders, it has NOTHING to do with Cold or Sunlight.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Djehuti - You are demonstrating an unfortunate trend that I have observed on the forum lately. In the old days, even the biggest idiots would try to support their positions with some kind of factual information that was Germaine to the subject.
Now I see people making the most nonsensical assumptions from the misreading of data or history. The only foundations their positions could possibly have, is their own imaginations. But when challenged, they simply ignore the challenge. Which means that they would prefer to cleave to their IMAGINED realities; rather then pursue an honest understanding OF reality. Which leaves the forum as a place where the “Blind-leads-the-Blind” - Or more appropriately in this case; the “Ignorant-teaches-the-Ignorant”.
Case-in-Point, your statement:
“LOL @ the havoc the idiot trolls have issued on this thread”.
Please say what a post about Laplanders, or the conclusions reached, concerning their skin color, is akin to trolling.
The fact is there is NO connection.
Your response was one of intellectual poverty, you don’t like my post, but then again, you can’t refute it either, so you resort to name-calling: Which is like an eight year old saying, “it’s bad because I said so”.
There is an old saying: “There are liars, Damn liars, and Statistics”. Which means that data in the hands of a dishonest person – especially the person who created the data – can be made to mean whatever that dishonest person wants it to mean.
So if your brain is capable of simple logic please follow this logic carefully.
This is the BLACK face of the first European. They entered Europe at about 45,000 B.C.
This is the face of those people 10,000 years later, they are STILL Black.
This is the face of those people 19,000 years later, they are STILL Black.
This is the face of those people 39,500 years later, they are STILL Black.
This is the face of those people 43,500 years later, they are STILL Black.
So please tell me at what point those Black people TURNED White. The answer is of course, they DIDN”T!!! White people are a completely different race, born of a genetic defect affecting the production of Melanin.
Djehuti, I know that you are a Mongol person; so just to be sure that there is no misunderstanding about this, I will put it in Mongol terms!
My understanding is that your Mongol people displaced the original Black Nigritos of the Philippines about 6,000 years ago. (Lets not quibble about that now).
Now follow VERY closely!!
This is a Mongol person who has lived in the “Cold Sunlight deprived” regions, later the Artic, for maybe 50,000 years. (As the Glaciers retreated, they moved up). You can’t help but notice that he has very DARK SKIN!!!!
This is a Mongol person who has lived in the “Sunlight RICH” region of the Earth for maybe 6,000 years. The Philippines nation lays almost right on the EQUATOR!!!!! You can’t get much more sunlight than THAT!!!
Yet, this lovely young lady is PALE skinned!!!!!
People, have I made my POINT, Sunlight and cold have NOTHING to do with it!!! They are Albinos!!!Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Long ago, the first archeologist to excavate the Anatolian sites of Turkey that established its first cities near 10,000 BC and introduced agriculture and pastoralism, and (if you read between the lines) established the language that was carried from there by Indo-Europeans near 1800 BC, the people who established the 10,000 BC civilization were the dolichocephalic race – Africans. Here is what Mellaart wrote:
“The physical types appear to be depicted which may reflect the two dolicocephalic races recognized by the late Professor M. Senyurek in the skeletons from Hacilar; the robust Eurafrican race and the more gracile Proto-Mediterranean race. These naturalistic statues serve as a link between those of Catal Huyuk and the later, larger and more conventional group from Hacilar V-II.
James Mellaart, Earliest civilizations of the Near East, (Thames and Hudson, London, 1965), p. 8.
Picture #6 from Konya in Anatolia is a dolicocephalic skull from 7000 BC that appears to also have been artificially elongated. Picture #7 shows a pottery burial in Heliocarnassus from 5000 BC. These type of pottery burials are seen also in Sudan of that time.
Section C of the page below shows the Anatolian population in sculpture from about 2000 BC down through about 400 BC. African.
All the neighboring lands were also African: [A] Siberia, Ukraine, Syria, Jerico, [B] the Phoenicians.
[D] Shows the bi-racial community that came to exist from about 500 BC and later and shows whites competing with African (look at the pairs) taking historical Africans (first column) and trying to portray those stellar individuals as white (second column).
F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Abstract:
Since the beginning of the Holocene, the Anatolian region has been a crossroads for populations and civilizations from Europe, Asia, and the Near to Middle East, with increasing interactions since the Bronze Age.
Yes. But the initial population was African with them being pushed aside by whites.
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Marc - It's a pity your pictures aren't bigger. The comparison pics on the lower right, are a perfect example of how Whites use bogus artifacts to compliment their bogus telling of history. Some people think that they only do it to Egyptian history, wrong, they do it to all history.
Of course the reason for this is quite clear, White people are a defective breed with no history. Their only alternative is to make one up. Somewhere along the way, they also decided to create a myth whereby, the defective ones became the superior ones.
Against all odds, they were able to pull it off. Of course it didn't hurt that by now, they were for the most part, dealing with Sub-Saharans.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sundjata - Was I able to present my proofs above; in such a way as to make it understandable for even you?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Perhaps I should start following Sundjiata's example and start ignoring these trolls. No matter how many times you explain to them that European whiteness is NOT albinism and that Europeans became white IN Europe, it does not sink in with these nutcase. They are as nuts as those who argue the Egyptians were white Nordics with blonde and red hair. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti – I see that you are attempting to go all out with the Bullsh1t and “Strawman” arguments defense.
Well, I don’t play that; so let’s establish some factual parameters before we go on.
First of all, you are NOT a disinterested or unaffected participant in this discourse. You are a pale-skinned Mongol, the White man gave your people the tag “Yellow Race” because so many of your people have a yellowish hue to their complexions.
As we all know from anecdotal evidence, yellowish skin is the product of Black and White people mating and producing offspring. However, we also know that Mongols have the full range of skin colors, from very dark skin, to skin that is PALER than a Europeans.
So when I assert that pale Mongols are Albinos, I am talking about you! This assertion pierces your little testes and goes right to the heart; It also leaves you in the position of having to defend not only Mongol Albinos, but Caucasian ones as well – after all, an Albino is an Albino, regardless of where they live.
But I ask you, was it really right to build a Strawman with the nuts who argue that Egyptians were white Nordics with blonde and red hair. I mean that shows total disrespect for the subject.
Now to your statement; you said “European whiteness is NOT albinism and that Europeans became white IN Europe”.
On the face of it, I find it a very curious statement. Question: Why do you say European Whiteness? That begs the question: So what causes Mongol Whiteness? After all, like I said, some of them are Whiter than Europeans.
You also said; “Europeans became white IN Europe”. Okay fine; WHO WERE THEY? What are the tribe names of these Africans who turned White? Where do they live now? Who are their descendents?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Perhaps I should start following Sundjiata's example and start ignoring these trolls. No matter how many times you explain to them that European whiteness is NOT albinism and that Europeans became white IN Europe, it does not sink in with these nutcase.
That wouldn't be anything new on your part as you have been ignoring your own threads for a long time Mary. The Stolen Legacy
It's like no matter how many times it is explained to you that Prof. James cites the ancient Greeks as the thieves and that Greek classical philosophy wasn't "home grown" it doesnt sink into your thick skull.
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If my memory serves me correctly, Herodotus wrote that the Colchians, then inhabitants of Anatolia (present-day Turkey), were akin to or phonetically the same as the Egyptians and Ethiopians. Hence, they were what we deem black people.
I don't understand why this is so implausible to so many people.
-------------------- Ever desireless one will understand the mystery Posts: 34 | From: Chuck City | Registered: Apr 2009
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After writing the above post, I realized that Sundjata was probably totally lost; and nearing suicide. Being a caring person, I thought that I had better explain about the Asians before she did something rash.
The second great migration out-of-Africa circa, 55,000 B.C. (that wound up in China) had many components. Among them were (Normal) Africans with Mongol features such as below.
And Black people with straight hair, such as below.
BUT, also among them, was a sizable contingent of Albinos (of BOTH types), likely seeking a place with less sunshine, and less hostility from their normal compatriots.
Now exactly what happened in northern Asia, we are not quite sure. But we do know (from anecdotal data) that the African Albinos with straight hair and Non-Mongol features moved to Central-north and Western-north Asia, producing today’s Caucasians.
Is it safe to say that there was a coverup in that scholars tried to erase any sembelence of Africans being in these places before the slave trade?
Peace
Evergreen Writes: Peace, KING. You are correct, there is a definite cover up. A stolen legacy....
Evergreen Writes: King, here is an example of the cover up.
Egyptologists James Quibell and Fredrick Green excavated Nekhen in 1894. Here is an interesting comment from Sonia Zakrzewski and Joseph Powell at Egypt at Its Origins 3 on the cranial remains selected from the site to come back to Europe for review:
"Facial prognathism has been described by non-specialists as being an African trait...."
"...may have been undertaken on a pragmatic basis, and most likely was simply undertaken on the basis of relative completeness. The crania sent back to Britain tended to be less prognathic (and hence less African-looking) than those left on-site...."
"It is possible that the this was a subconscious decision taken by Quibell and Green given the prevailing view at the time of the ancient Egyptians being more closely related to modern (Victorian) Europeans than to African populations...."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Thats just shamefull. Good on Sonia for pointing this out.
So these socalled "Egyptologist" decided to leave the more obvious African Skulls and take skulls that seemed to there eyeball to be less "African".
It's easy to look back at those times and just laugh......BUT people have to take this seriously and know that the Eurocentrics are still desperate to push a non Black Egypt. Our work as truthseekers is never done because we have to be able to understand latest studies, and out any study that promotes a non Black Egypt(Like Brace 93).
Keep up the Good work Evergreen and know I wait to read more of the studies you have. Sometimes truthseekers feel that there hard work goes unnoticed, but know Evergreen that lots of people who do not post, read this site I see them at the internet cafe so we have people who love to read the truth.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Gerald Massey, writing in the 19th century, is one of my heroes. British guy. Very, very deep and very, very respectful of Africa as being the cradle of civilization with zillions of facts to back it up. Some of you know about him. Here is a link that doesn't capture his death but it is something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Massey
He was riled by the academic establishment that whitewashed Egypt and he himself brought up the same point of the ignored crania. I remember he said something to the effect:
"Sites in protodynastic Egypt have been excavated showing hundreds of clearly African crania sent in several crates to London. Someone please answer me ... What happened to those crates!! They have disappeared!!"
I always wondered about that and it sort of dropped out of my mind. But I see from the discussion above that there were shenanigans to hide African origins and roots.
I think the page below is a reminder that whites are without scruples when it comes to lying and falsifying history. Just amazing. Many are totally unscrupulous.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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I tend to stay away from a bomb rush!! 
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