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PARIS (AFP) - The bust of Queen Nefertiti housed in a Berlin museum and believed to be 3,400 years old in fact is a copy dating from 1912 that was made to test pigments used by the ancient Egyptians, according to Swiss art historian Henri Stierlin.
Stierlin, author of a dozen works on Egypt, the Middle East and ancient Islam, says in a just-released book that the bust currently in Berlin's Altes Museum was made on the orders of Germany archaeologist Ludwig Borchardt on site at the digs by an artist named Gerardt Marks.
"It seems increasingly improbable that the bust is an original," Stierlin told AFP.
The historian said the archaeologist had hoped to produce a new portrait of the queen wearing a necklace he knew she had owned and also carry out a colour test with ancient pigments found at the digs. But on December 6, 1912, the copy was much admired as an original work by a German prince and the archaeologist "couldn't sum up the courage to ridicule" his guests, Stierlin said.
The historian, who has been working on the subject for 25 years, said he based his findings on several facts. "The bust has no left eye and was never crafted to have one. This is an insult for an ancient Egyptian who believed the statue was the person themself."
He also said the shoulders were cut vertically in the style practised since the 19th century while "Egyptians cut shoulders horizontally" and that the features were accentuated in a manner recalling that of Art Nouveau.
It was impossible to scientifically establish the date of the bust because it was made of stone covered in plaster, he said.
"The pigments, which can be dated, are really ancient," he added.
Stierlin also listed problems he noted during the discovery and shipment to Germany as well as in scientific reports of the time.
French archaeologists present at the site never mentioned the finding and neither did written accounts of the digs. The earliest detailed scientific report appeared in 1923, 11 years after the discovery.
The archaeologist "didn't even bother to supply a description, which is amazing for an exceptional work found intact".
Borchardt "knew it was a fake," Stierlin said. "He left the piece for 10 years in his sponsor's sitting-room. It's as if he'd left Tutankhamen's mask in his own sitting-room."
Egypt has demanded the return of the bust disovered on the banks of the Nile since it went on display in 1923, depicting a stunning woman wearing a unique cone-shaped headdress.
One of Berlin's prime attractions it will move into its own hall at the newly renovated Neues Museum when it reopens to the public in October.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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This is interesting. So it is only a "confirmed" fake to gringo when Europeans say it is. No matter that Manu Mampim et al. confirmed it for us before; its only "confirmed" when gringo's intellectuals icons (like Sforza "confirmed" hybrids in 30kya) repeat it. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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^^ Well if those associated with afrocentricsm didn't have a habit of making preposterous and far fetched claims then maybe the credibility wouldn't suffer. Clyde winters for instance has apparently decifered all types of ancient scripts that he got his hands on. Most people view afrocentricts as political activists rather than objective scholars, afrocentrist scholars are the National Enquirer of the academic world, producer of information that has no real value.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ^^ Well if those associated with afrocentricsm didn't have a habit of making preposterous and far fetched claims...the National Enquirer of the academic world, producer of information that has no real value.
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I'm just telling as it is, even you asked why Manu Mampim was speaking to deaf ears. You draw your conclusion as to why that is.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: PARIS (AFP) - The bust of Queen Nefertiti housed in a Berlin museum and believed to be 3,400 years old in fact is a copy dating from 1912 that was made to test pigments used by the ancient Egyptians, according to Swiss art historian Henri Stierlin.
Stierlin, author of a dozen works on Egypt, the Middle East and ancient Islam, says in a just-released book that the bust currently in Berlin's Altes Museum was made on the orders of Germany archaeologist Ludwig Borchardt on site at the digs by an artist named Gerardt Marks.
"It seems increasingly improbable that the bust is an original," Stierlin told AFP.
The historian said the archaeologist had hoped to produce a new portrait of the queen wearing a necklace he knew she had owned and also carry out a colour test with ancient pigments found at the digs. But on December 6, 1912, the copy was much admired as an original work by a German prince and the archaeologist "couldn't sum up the courage to ridicule" his guests, Stierlin said.
The historian, who has been working on the subject for 25 years, said he based his findings on several facts. "The bust has no left eye and was never crafted to have one. This is an insult for an ancient Egyptian who believed the statue was the person themself."
He also said the shoulders were cut vertically in the style practised since the 19th century while "Egyptians cut shoulders horizontally" and that the features were accentuated in a manner recalling that of Art Nouveau.
It was impossible to scientifically establish the date of the bust because it was made of stone covered in plaster, he said.
"The pigments, which can be dated, are really ancient," he added.
Stierlin also listed problems he noted during the discovery and shipment to Germany as well as in scientific reports of the time.
French archaeologists present at the site never mentioned the finding and neither did written accounts of the digs. The earliest detailed scientific report appeared in 1923, 11 years after the discovery.
The archaeologist "didn't even bother to supply a description, which is amazing for an exceptional work found intact".
Borchardt "knew it was a fake," Stierlin said. "He left the piece for 10 years in his sponsor's sitting-room. It's as if he'd left Tutankhamen's mask in his own sitting-room."
Egypt has demanded the return of the bust disovered on the banks of the Nile since it went on display in 1923, depicting a stunning woman wearing a unique cone-shaped headdress.
One of Berlin's prime attractions it will move into its own hall at the newly renovated Neues Museum when it reopens to the public in October.
So I guess we should inform our friend Mathida seeing as the Bust is her favorite example of a Caucasian Egypt....HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Your post is of no interest, i was responding to your reaction which was of a sign of not agreeing. I don't/never read much into your posts, since i realised that majority of your post are useless and more or less the same, duplication of the same old verbal diarrhea, filled with childish picture spam and same rhetorics "jew boy, jew you, jew that and gringo you, gringo her" blablablala ad infinitum, very boring, constantly stalking posters from thread to thread dragging with you the same old topic, ""sforza 30ky", "Sforza 30ky", "Sfor...", a typing and breathing sleeping pill, i bet you don't even realise how pathetic and schizofrenic you sound, bookshop boy. Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ^^ Well if those associated with afrocentricsm didn't have a habit of making preposterous and far fetched claims then maybe the credibility wouldn't suffer. Clyde winters for instance has apparently decifered all types of ancient scripts that he got his hands on. Most people view afrocentricts as political activists rather than objective scholars, afrocentrist scholars are the National Enquirer of the academic world, producer of information that has no real value.
So you think Eurocentrics are "RELLIABLE"..??? What is the difference between Eurocentrism and Afrocentrism other than the continents...Eurocentrics are just as preposterous as Clyde Winters with B.S like Africans never developed written scripts...and Nubians being white..???
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ^^ Well if those associated with afrocentricsm didn't have a habit of making preposterous and far fetched claims then maybe the credibility wouldn't suffer. Clyde winters for instance has apparently decifered all types of ancient scripts that he got his hands on. Most people view afrocentricts as political activists rather than objective scholars, afrocentrist scholars are the National Enquirer of the academic world, producer of information that has no real value.
This is exactly YOUR opinion of "afrocentrics", to which YOU associate Clyde Winters with.
Most "afrocentrics" are not even black. It's an erroneous term create by ignroant white so-called scholars given to anyone who calls things how it really is, and gives credit to black civilization and ingenuity.
Chris Ehret is an "afrocentrists" simply for acknwledging the AFRICAN identity of the ancient Egyptian language.
In short, what you said is strictly YOUR own opinion.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote: So you think Eurocentrics are "RELLIABLE"..???
No I don't!
But atleast the Eurocentrists of the 18/19th century presented their thesis with style and didn't make nonsensical claims such as the Xing or Xong dynasty in China were "white".
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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^^ Again, this is your own retarded opinion. This eurocentric style gave birth the great hamitic theory, claiming anyone from East Africa, Southern Africa, and into Asia (India) were caucasoids or mixed with caucasoids.
I sense your type reminds of a Richard Pryor joke. Whatever team is winning you proudly shout..."thats my team"!
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Chris Ehret is an "afrocentrists" simply for acknwledging the AFRICAN identity of the ancient Egyptian language.
Why is there a need for him to "acknowledge" Facts? You don't acknowledge facts you face them, or else your credibility will suffer sooner or later. When you say "acknowledge" it sounds as if you think he was previously reluctant. So you think he's an afrocentrist because he tells it as it is on his findings or because he's a researcher of african languages?
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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LOL @ Eurocentrists presenting their evidence "with style".. What are you anyways, a Somalicentrist? All of this crackpot nonsense about "Somalids" is just as intellectually bankrupt as those theories advanced by Marc and Mike.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Chris Ehret is an "afrocentrists" simply for acknwledging the AFRICAN identity of the ancient Egyptian language.
Why is there a need for him to "acknowledge" Facts? You don't acknowledge facts you face them, or else your credibility will suffer sooner or later. When you say "acknowledge" it sounds as if you think he was previously reluctant. So you think he's an afrocentrist because he tells it as it is on his findings or because he's a researcher of african languages?
No, your own eurocentrism makes you completely miss the point. I'm saying EUROCENTRISTS would call him that term because he presents/acknowledges these facts just as they have scholars like Diop and Yochannon.
Stop the strawman semantics game with "acknowledge".
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:I sense your type reminds of a Richard Pryor joke. Whatever team is winning you proudly shout..."thats my team"!
I think that's where our mentality differs, you see things from the lenses of batteling teams, while i see individuals conducting research on their respective fields, some more proffessional than others.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:I sense your type reminds of a Richard Pryor joke. Whatever team is winning you proudly shout..."thats my team"!
I think that's where our mentality differs, you see things from the lenses of batteling teams, while i see individuals conducting research on their respective fields, some more proffessional than others.
If you truly believed that, you wouldn't be using terms like "afrocentrists".
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: LOL @ Eurocentrists presenting their evidence "with style".. What are you anyways, a Somalicentrist? All of this crackpot nonsense about "Somalids" is just as intellectually bankrupt as those theories advanced by Marc and Mike.
I don't act as a scholar, everything i write here is subjective and based on my opinion, i have no responsibilities to any institution, field or group of people.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:LOL @ Eurocentrists presenting their evidence "with style"..
They presented their theories with style, like it or not, this doesn't mean i agree with them. The effect of it is still highly present today in both academics and social life, also the reason you and others are constantly in heated debates investing alot of energy day in and day out so to combat these theories. Don't deny their success. Afrocentrists are not and will never be on the same league as Eurocentrists.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:LOL @ Eurocentrists presenting their evidence "with style"..
They presented their theories with style, like it or not, this doesn't mean i agree with them. The effect of it is still highly present today in both academics and social life, also the reason you and others are constantly in heated debates investing alot energy to combat these theories.
They are "debated" simply because there are people still today who stil believe these incredibly stupid ideas put forth by these "scholars" with style...according to you. Slowly but surely, the undeniable truth is showing just how incredibly stupid most of these ideas were.
There is your "debate".
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: i have no responsibilities to any institution, field or group of people. [/QB]
Yea, except for your non-existent "Somalids" a.k.a, Hamites. Yonis, I can only see why you'd make such an absurd comment because your views (at least some) can easily be classed as Eurocentric. Your ideas are but a sub-set of the larger Eurocentric paradigm. What you are really saying is that when Europeans say it it sounds more believable. They "lie better".. It's just silly.
By the way, how do you define "Afrocentric" and who coined the term?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:LOL @ Eurocentrists presenting their evidence "with style"..
They presented their theories with style, like it or not, this doesn't mean i agree with them. The effect of it is still highly present today in both academics and social life, also the reason you and others are constantly in heated debates investing alot energy to combat these theories.
They are "debated" simply because there are people still today who stil believe these incredibly stupid ideas put forth by these "scholars" with style...according to you. Slowly but surely, the undeniable truth is showing just how incredibly stupid most of these ideas were.
There is your "debate".
Exactly my point, eurocentric theories although many time erroneus still don't defy logic when it comes to the uninformed mass, while afrocentrists like Clyde winters can easily get debunked by secondary school students, even you wrote above "the great hamitic theory", thus you acknowledge the magnitude of the influence, and still in use among normal people despite being dicredited on the academic level. But only few have been discredited, majority of these thesis are still strong, the whole world is continuing to absorb them and with little resistance. For instance Indians who speak languages derived from sanskrit are today convinced that they were an invading aryan race more related to europeans than to the similar looking dravidians, and the none arabic speaking upper egyptians think that they are foreigners to the land and their ancestors called themselves "nubians". You see, Eurocentrism played it's card very well. They even created a continent that doesn't exist for themselves, and the whole world can't imagine a world without this none-existing continent. That's what i mean with lying with style.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Funny how Yonis doesn't take into account who exactly are more inclined to believe these myths (on either side) and how that equates to the "masses" vs. the minority where this discourse is mainly restricted to. The polarized and biased nature of his "opinion", which reveals deep issues permeating from his psyche, only shows his passive-aggressive intent to advance the messages inherent in Eurocentric doctrine. Thus, his "opinion" can be disregarded.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^ Hey, i was just answering akobens question and giving my subjective opinion as to why news outlets around the world didn't publsih articles when Manu Mampim revealed that the Nefertiti bust was fake, while the Swiss made headlines, even here at ES.
Basically the words of an "expert" has more value than those who are percieved as political militants.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Sundjata wrote: because your views (at least some) can easily be classed as Eurocentric
Which views of mine are Eurocentric, can you please outline them? This is probably the 10th time you try to dissmis me as eurocentric, you have no basis for this accusation. I for sure have no vested interest in European supremacy. The world is not divided between Eurocentric and Afrocentric camp you know, maybe some of us like to learn from an objective point of view, you should take it easy on projecting your battle mindset based on two opposing racial camps.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ^^ Hey, i was just answering akobens question and giving my subjective opinion as to why news outlets around the world didn't publsih articles when Manu Mampim revealed that the Nefertiti bust was fake, while the Swiss made headlines, even here at ES.
Basically the words of an "expert" has more value than those who are percieved as political militants.
So I guess those who believed the world was flat had style since the masses believed them, while Thomas Aquinas was just a crazy "afrocentric" who believed in a spherical earth right? You make a lot of sense.
The "Hamitic" theory is also 1000xs worse than what Mike or Clyde has ever presented here.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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Is the bust truly a confirmed fake? Or is this just the opinion of one particular man trying to stir the pot?
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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LOL, the somalid thread in stormfront was completely attacked by Greek nationalist posters and other southern europeans, how the hell does that make it Eurocentric? If you didn't notice the "Assyrian" character was only allowed to post on the "opposing view" section. Maybe you should stop being so racially paranoid, it's the net you won't get atcked by a mob if you post on a "White nationalist" site challenging their views, or maybe it's against the unwritten loyalty rules of ES to post on such sites, eh? lol
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Yonis... Question..do you consider every point that goes against the eurocentric view as afrocentric?
The reason i ask is i believe you to be the same person who was debating against me and MKGlouisville on another site. You went under another name there.
That is you right?
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ^^ Hey, i was just answering akobens question and giving my subjective opinion as to why news outlets around the world didn't publsih articles when Manu Mampim revealed that the Nefertiti bust was fake, while the Swiss made headlines, even here at ES.
Basically the words of an "expert" has more value than those who are percieved as political militants.
So I guess those who believed the world was flat had style since the masses believed them, while Thomas Aquinas was just a crazy "afrocentric" who believed in a spherical earth right? You make a lot of sense.
The "Hamitic" theory is also 1000xs worse than what Mike or Clyde has ever presented here.
Bad analogy, people who believed the earth was flat believed so without intentions of modifying knowledge so to serve their interest and had no agenda. There is a huge difference between being ignorant and purposely creating ignorance for a calculated gain.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by naturalborn7: Yonis... Question..do you consider every point that goes against the eurocentric view as afrocentric?
The reason i ask is i believe you to be the same person who was debating against me and MKGlouisville on another site. You went under another name there.
That is you right?
And which site is that? Never heard of that name or yours untill now, i only post on four forums, two of them are none-english.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Your views are the exact same views as LAND OF PUNT.
A link is even posted from this site in that thread. To a thread on here started by you.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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Trust me that is not me, i have never heard of that forum before, for starter a nick like that wouldn't be my choice, i don't write on caps and i also don't have the same writing style as he does. He seems to live in an english speaking country since his english sounds better than mine. And i definetly don't have the same views as he does. lame sentences like these "because the PEOPLE in the HORN of AFRICA who are the ORIGINAL caucasians" or " MIDPOINT between AURASIANS and SUB-SAHARA BLACKS" is something i would never write, LOL. I don't believe in a caucasian race, let alone horn africans being part of it sounds extremely pathetic in my ears. The only thing i agree with him is the "black" identity, but this is not suprising since majority of people (excluding Arwa and Yom) from that part of Africa (also north africa) don't like being labeled according to a colour.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I'll take your word for it. But i believe he states he doesn't believe in a caucasion race also. I also find it coincidental he would make a point by leading me to a link started by you. I'll leave it alone then.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Trust me that is not me, i have never heard of that forum before, for starter a nick like that wouldn't be my choice, i don't write on caps and i also don't have the same writing style as he does. He seems to live in an english speaking country since his english sounds better than mine. And i definetly don't have the same views as he does. lame sentences like these "because the PEOPLE in the HORN of AFRICA who are the ORIGINAL caucasians" or " MIDPOINT between AURASIANS and SUB-SAHARA BLACKS" is something i would never write, LOL. I don't believe in a caucasian race, let alone horn africans being part of it sounds extremely pathetic in my ears. The only thing i agree with him is the "black" identity, but this is not suprising since majority of people (excluding Arwa and Yom) from that part of Africa (also north africa) don't like being labeled according to a colour.
People who usually make the statement in which they don't "like being labeled to a colour", usually just mean they don't want to be called "black". But usually don't voice any opinion when labeled "white".
But back to the thread title. I'm glad the bust has now been proven fake. I made this statement over a year ago that it was fake against a eurocentric. Now i have proof.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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LOL, the somalid thread in stormfront was completely attacked by Greek nationalist posters and other southern europeans, how the hell does that make it Eurocentric?
It appears that you are not aware of friction between said groups, who are dubbed by some as "Medicentrists", and radical white supremacists.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: atleast the Eurocentrists of the 18/19th century presented their thesis with style
Lord help this poor fool...
I lost a lot of respect for the dude...Exactly what is stylish about preaching that Europeans/White people were a master race that migrated the Earth and created civilization especcially in Africa. Preaching that black Africans were in between Monkeys and whites on the evo. Scale...LOL...YOU CALL THAT STYLE...come on man....
Eurocentism is based off EXACTLY what Marc Washington does...only people ACTUALLY believe the Sumarians, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, etc. were White people. They even have some b.s. theory that a wandering Viking created the Aztec empire...and the Aztecs loved him so much they made him into a God...Quetzecotl..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^^The fact that people actually believe that sort of thing is because in media publications lighter skin in any region gets the spotlight when it comes to things that have any kind of glitz (which is why skin creams sell globally so well), but when it comes to poverty, terrorist wanted lists, etc, you see alot more of the "other side" of the diversity of human kind.
Like a few years back the mostly Saudi terrorist lists they kept showing on the news had people mostly my color, golden brown skinned, like the guy at the party i just posted in the "earliest Europeans" thread.
Not that there aren't alot of light skinned people from the Mid East region, heck genetic studies find 40% admixture that goes back to the European crusades.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by da openass: Lord help this poor fool...
So says an even poorer fool.
Anyway, the point is not about Afrocentrism vs. Eurocentrism.
Eurocentrics thrive on lies which are elaborate and have been passed on for centuries. Afrocentrics-- at least most of them-- thrive on truth. Those few that do thrive on lies are not as elaborate about it but and have had no support through predecessors. But lies are lies.
And apparently so is this bust.
As for why the academic community has not taken afrocentrism seriously, Yonis your explanation is no excuse as again most afrocentrics are not Clyde Winters who make outlandish claims. Most like Manu Ampim or even Egyptian Ahmed Saleh have simply pointe out the obvious-- that Egyptians were Africans. The main reason quite simply was racism in mainstream i.e. white 'western' academia which is why white racists would rather uphold the fringe loons like Winters as par-exemplar of Afrocentrism than the majority of substantial scholars!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: And where exactly is the proof that this bust is a fake? This one mans opinion?
You simple girl you, this "mans opinion"?
Well, this "man" is a historian who has been working in the field for 25 years, and bases his "opinion" on the following facts as noted.....
The historian, who has been working on the subject for 25 years, said he based his findings on several facts. "The bust has no left eye and was never crafted to have one. This is an insult for an ancient Egyptian who believed the statue was the person themself." He also said the shoulders were cut vertically in the style practised since the 19th century while "Egyptians cut shoulders horizontally" and that the features were accentuated in a manner recalling that of Art Nouveau ..........French archaeologists present at the site never mentioned the finding and neither did written accounts of the digs. The earliest detailed scientific report appeared in 1923, 11 years after the discovery. The archaeologist "didn't even bother to supply a description, which is amazing for an exceptional work found intact". Borchardt "knew it was a fake," Stierlin said. "He left the piece for 10 years in his sponsor's sitting-room. It's as if he'd left Tutankhamen's mask in his own sitting-room." Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Yonis, I can only see why you'd make such an absurd comment because your views (at least some) can easily be classed as Eurocentric. Your ideas are but a sub-set of the larger Eurocentric paradigm. What you are really saying is that when Europeans say it it sounds more believable. They "lie better".. It's just silly.
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