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Author Topic: OT: Southwest Asian influences on Greek civilization
BrandonP
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A lot of people here talk about African (particularly Egyptian) influences
on ancient Greece, but there is some evidence suggesting cultural ties between Greece and Southwest Asia as well. Some are documented in the link below:

http://phoenicia.org/greek.html

A sampling:

quote:
The diffusion of Oriental wares through the ports of northern Syria - especially the port of Poseideon,23 where Greeks and Near Easterners met - played a major role in bringing about the mix of Hittite and Mesopotamian mythology found in Greek religion. Phoenicians were the dominant traders at this time and this land had once been heavily influenced by them. Their own myths were in turn heavily influenced by their neighbours, although they also carried with them practices which originated in their homeland. The spread of tales to their trading partners and rivals would have been through spoken word, as literacy was not widespread.

The following section looks at the Greek myths - especially those recorded in the work of Hesiod - that parallel those found in the Near East, and in particular the texts found at the old Hittite capital of Hattusas. We will first look at the gods of Hesiod"s Theogony, followed by the aspects of sacred stones, serpents and monsters, and finish with cultural heroes.

Hesiod"s Theogony parallels much of the creation myth of the Near East �Kingship in Heaven"24 as found in the Hittite library of Hattusas. The Kumarbi tale shows up in a Hittite text that predates Hesiod by some 500 years. Hesiod"s Theogony follows the sequence so closely that borrowing almost certainly took place and thus this aspect of Greek myth shows aspects of Babylonian, Hittite, Hurrian and Canaanite mythology. This borrowing must either have occurred in the Bronze Age or some time later and been lifted either directly from the Hittites or through the neo-Hittite states of Syria. The creation myth follows these lines: the first god is sometimes known as Alalu, but does not appear in the Greek tale, Heaven Anu/Uranus is castrated by Kumarbi/Kronos.25 Kumarbi/Kronos rules for a number of years and sires three sons. He swallows his offspring, who include a storm god and a god of waters, but in the case of the storm god he is tricked into swallowing a stone instead. The storm god eventually overthrows Kumarbi who, in the �Song of Ullikumi," attempts to gain revenge.

Pillars and Stones: The worship of stone bears direct comparison with the worship of pillars,26 a distinctively Phoenician practice which nonetheless has some parallels with early Mycenaean tree and pillar cults as well as a relationship with the obelisks of Egypt. Here it becomes virtually impossible to differentiate between true Phoenician practices and those of their neighbours, as is demonstrated by the following myths.

In Greek legend, Kronos swallowed his offspring with the exception of Zeus, for whom a stone was substituted. The infant Zeus was then raised on the island of Crete where his cries were masked by warriors, the Kouretes, clashing their shields.27 Zeus then challenged his father and made him regurgitate his brothers along with the stone that was his substitute. On Crete, the stone itself is worshipped and a sacred stone was likewise worshipped at Delphi.28 The story runs along the same lines as the Kumarbi myths mentioned overleaf, where the storm god overthrows his father, who was also given a stone to swallow in place of his son. The Near Eastern myth does not end here, as the stone takes on a power of its own as a result of having been within the body of a god. In the Song of Ullikummi, Kumarbi"s attempts to overthrow the weather god are assisted by his nurturing of the stone. It grows rapidly on the shoulder of a Titan figure, the god Upelluri, who is identified with the Greek Atlas. Ullikummi, the giant child of earth, makes war on the storm god, daring to approach the very gates of heaven, a feature seen also in the story of Typhon. At this point, it is worth mentioning that to the Greek mind, almost every demon was born of earth and as such represented an old order.29

Serpents: The snake is a recurring emblem in Semitic myth. Gilgamesh himself is robbed of his immortality by one, just as man"s fall from grace is attributed to a serpent in Hebrew myth. This latter has shades of Heracles" search for the apples of Hesperides which, like the fruit in the Garden of Eden, were guarded by a serpent. With the exception of the Hebrew, snakes and serpents are often dual-aspected in Semitic myth,30 having both a beneficial and harmful aspect. Similarly, by watching snakes, one mythical Greek healer learnt how to resurrect the dead. The cult of Asclepius is associated with snakes; his emblem, the Caduceus, was a pair of snakes wound around a staff; and furthermore one of his cult images was a live snake. On Crete, the ancient snake goddess is identified with Aphrodite-Pandemos. In Egypt, Isis uses a snake to gain knowledge from Ra, whose great enemy is the serpent Apep. The Egyptian god of knowledge, Thoth, whom the Greeks identified with Hermes, also carried a Caduceus.

In Greece, the serpent was particularly associated with the worship of earth deities. It was an emblem of the old Chthonic practices, which centred on the cycle of rebirth and resurrection, as represented by the snake shedding its skin. Both Greek and Near Eastern myth often portray serpents as monstrous sons and daughters of the earth; which must be defeated as they rise up and challenge the ruling god. Combat against this creature represented a fight between the old world and the new, although this very aspect also saw it celebrated as a symbol of the New Year. At Delphi, Apollo fought and slew the serpent Pytho in much the same way as the Babylonian god Marduk fought the mother of monsters, the serpent Tiamat. There are further Eastern parallels here, with the combat of Greek Zeus and Typhon,31 and Babylonian Ninurta and Anzu. The Zeus-Typhon myth parallels that of the Ullikumi myth mentioned above, even to the site of the fight, mount Casius. The central myth is of a god fighting against a serpent; either an earth goddess and consort, or son or daughter of the Earth Goddess. The god eventually successfully slays the serpent where others have tried and failed. In some cases the god first suffers defeat by the serpent and then is aided by another, such as his son.32 The death of the monster is often brought about by an arrow, hence one of the identifications with Apollo. Hittite myth also celebrates the slaying of the dragon. Heroes had a tendency to fight serpents and Heracles very first act was to strangle two snakes sent against him by the goddess Hera. He also, with a companion, fought and defeated the Hydra, a seven-headed creature of the earth and child of Typhon and Echidna. A similar creature also appears in Semitic literature dating from the Bronze Age.

Monsters: Some mythological creatures were shared by the Near East and the Greek world, notably Lamia, Lamashtu, the Gorgon and Gello.33 Some of these bogeys were slain by heroes, but others could only be warded off and Eastern charms for this purpose have been found in Greek graves. Lamia is a popular figure of horror, yet there is no undisputed Greek representation of her. She resembles the demoness Lamashtu who steals children from their mother's womb and is a deity whom pregnant women must ward off. In Greek myth, Lamia becomes the daughter of the Phoenician Belos,34 who in Eastern myth was cursed by Ishtar. There is a depiction of her in profile, naked with dangling breasts and a lion's head, almost as a mistress of animals. Here she resembles the Greek Gorgon, Medusa, who is shown en face, but also with dangling breasts. Some of the earliest artist"s impressions of Gorgons come from Cyprus where she is depicted being slain by Perseus, who is hacking off her snake-haired head. Here there are clear parallels with the slaying of Humbaba by Gilgamesh. The last of these monsters, Gello, is mentioned in the works of Sappho; she bears resemblance to the Sumerian-Akkadian evil spirit Gallu.

Cultural Heroes and DemiGods: There are decided similarities between Near Eastern Ninurta and Gilgamesh, and the Greek heroes Achilles, Diomedes, Perseus35 and Heracles. All are cultural heroes involved in great events, whose actions represent the overcoming of major obstacles or foes. In Near Eastern myth, Ninurta undertook 12 labours, the same number as Heracles. Gilgamesh and Achilles both have a goddess for a mother who aids them in time of need, and are also connected with humankind"s inability to attain immortality. Another parallel appears where they both speak with the ghost of their dead best friend, but hereafter the two heroes" paths diverge. Gilgamesh is a warrior-priest, who more closely parallels Heracles than Achilles, being a great hero credited with far more than his actions at the siege of Troy alone. Gilgamesh even rebukes the goddess Ishtar, and this too is captured in the Iliad with Diomedes" wounding of Aphrodite. Heracles, however, has a more direct relationship with the Near East in his identification with the god Melqart, whose centre of worship was Tyre.36 This identification means there was a cult of Heracles going back 2300 years, predating his existence in the Greek world. In their separate myths both gods fought a lion. Further reason for identification occurs during the gods" annual festival just before Spring, around February or March, which involved ritual cremation symbolising the god resurrected phoenix-like through fire, as was Heracles who attained his immortality on his funeral pyre.37 Whenever a new colony was founded, a temple of Melqart was built,38 a practice paralleled in Greece. Heracles is also found in the Roman world as Hercules. This may just have been the Roman adoption of the Greek demigod or it may imply some direct Phoenician influences, as Oriental goods from this period have also been found in Italy.


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BrandonP
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http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=2757

quote:
These very early works of Greek literature and products of Greek thought are full of motifs and ideas that are clearly derived from Mesopotamian myth and, indeed, are central to it. Take, for example, the Hymn to Apollo (for a translation of the Hymns see here). The second, Pythian, section of the Hymn contains a number of themes with strong parallels from the Mesopotamian Ninurta and Marduk myths.

...

These complex, detailed parallels are central to the hymn and central to the Mesopotamian myths, attestations of which are found that are considerably earlier than the Homeric Hymns. The reasonable conjecture is that the Hymn has adopted these themes from Mesopotamian antecedents.


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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by BrandonP:
A lot of people here talk about African (particularly Egyptian) influences
on ancient Greece,

Could it be because this site is called Egyptsearch? Now if talking about African influences is too much for your lilly white mind I suggest you hang out with Lefkowitz and Bernal.

p.s. Mesopotamian (Asian) myths were influenced by Africa too (Barashango 1991). [Eek!]

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TheAmericanPatriot
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you have no evidence for any substantial african influences on Greece Bogel. Not a scrap.
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Whatbox
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Don't believe him, even tho he is responding to "Bogle" he's no psychic. He's just biased. Racism incarnate actually.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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no, he just appreciates decent scholarship, somethin sadly lacking here.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by BrandonP:

http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=2757

quote:

These very early works of Greek literature and products of Greek thought are full of motifs and ideas that are clearly derived from Mesopotamian myth and, indeed, are central to it. Take, for example, the Hymn to Apollo (for a translation of the Hymns see here). The second, Pythian, section of the Hymn contains a number of themes with strong parallels from the Mesopotamian Ninurta and Marduk myths.

...

These complex, detailed parallels are central to the hymn and central to the Mesopotamian myths, attestations of which are found that are considerably earlier than the Homeric Hymns. The reasonable conjecture is that the Hymn has adopted these themes from Mesopotamian antecedents.


Yes. The myth of Hades raping Persephone and taking her to the Underworld are also reminiscent of the Babylonian god Enlil raping Ninlil and taking her to the underworld.

There are probably more parallels to be found in Canaanite myth as Hesiod's theogony is almost identical to the Canaanite theogony provided by Sanchuniathon where most of the cosmos is produced by the heavens Shamayim (Uranus) and Eretz (Gaea), along with the birth of giant gods (Titans) and the succession of rule by overthrow from Shamayim to El (Cronus) and then to Baal (Zeus). Even the Orpheus theogony of the universe being born from a cosmic egg is very similar to a Canaanite theogony of the cosmic egg Mot.

I believe all of this is more than just coincidence since the Greeks themselves state that the city-state of Thebes was founded by Phoenicians who introduced the alphabet among other things.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
you have no evidence for any substantial african influences on Greece Bogel. Not a scrap.

Ha ha you show your imbecilic emotionally racist thinking with every post, you pathetic little twerp.

Extremely funny is how you have no problems with the heading post, southwest Asian influence into Greece, now do you?

Only trouble when the African influence is brought to the light huh... Don't even post here anymore you're beyond pathetic.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL Sorry but AmericanIdiot has been posting in this forum for nearly a decade and spouting the SAME nonsense all through the years. I don't think he'll stop anytime soon. [Big Grin]
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TheAmericanPatriot
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and I am still waiting for you to show you have any clue as to what constitutes good scholarship. An academic gatherin of Egyptoloists would laugh you out of the place.
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Djehuti
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^ Again so says YOU. We have been citing scholarly sources and other evidence to support our claims for as long as you've been in this forum yet you claim to be "waiting" for evidence. [Embarrassed]
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TheAmericanPatriot
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I have seen not a single peer reviewed article that connect up your bizarre theories with the history of Greece. You guys have simply made all of this up by supposition.
"Since there was a african marker 15,000 years ago they must have invented Greek Civilization"

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Djehuti
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^ The marker corresponds to the Neolithic. And every historian worth his grain of salt knows all civilization began with the neolithic. Now do the math.

Better yet, why don't you actually contribute to the topic of this thread and stop you're whining or just shut-up! [Embarrassed]

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