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Is Libya an example of Turk/Arab Racism in North Africa in Microcosm?
The story of Omar Mukhtar seems to say it is!
First a little on Libyan History.
Archaeological evidence indicates that from as early as the 8,000 BC, the coastal plain of Ancient Libya was inhabited by a Neolithic people, the Berbers, who were skilled in the domestication of cattle and the cultivation of crops.
Later, Libya also was occupied by a series of other peoples, with the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Persian empire, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks and Byzantines ruling all or part of the area.
Pockets of Berber population remain in modern Libya, but dispersal of Berbers north as far as Ireland and Scandinavia is documented in genetic markers studied by physical anthropologists and dispersal in Africa from the Atlantic coast to the Siwa oasis in Egypt, seems to have followed climatic changes causing increasing desertification.
Now the greatest number of Berbers in Africa is in Morocco (about 42% of the population) and in Algeria (about 27% of the population), as well as Tunisia and Libya, but exact statistics are not available.
Libya was conquered by Uqba ibn Nafi in 644 and fully conquered in 655, forming part of the Ummayad Caliphate. This was superseded by the Abbasids in 750, but in practice Libya enjoyed considerable local autonomy under the Aghlabid dynasty. Arab soldiers, spreading their new religion of Islam, entered Cyrenaica in 642 and occupied Tripoli in 643.
A succession of Arab and Berber dynasties then controlled what is now Libya. The culture of northwestern Libya developed along with the political units just west of it, while development in the east was strongly influenced by neighboring Egypt.
Ottoman Turks The Ottoman Turks conquered the country in the mid-16th century, and the three States or "Wilayat" of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica and Fezzan (which make up Libya) remained part of their empire with the exception of the virtual autonomy of the Karamanlis. The Karamanlis ruled from 1711 until 1835 mainly in Tripolitania, but had influence in Cyrenaica and Fezzan as well by the mid 18th century.
In October of 1911, during the Italo-Turkish War, an Italian naval contingent under the command of Admiral Luigi Faravelli reached the shores of Libya, then a territory subject to Ottoman Turkish control. The admiral demanded that the Libyans surrender their territory to the Italians or incur the immediate destruction of the city of Tripoli.
The Libyans fled instead of surrendering, and the Italians bombarded the city for three days, then proclaimed the Tripolitanians to be "committed and strongly bound to Italy." This marked the beginning of a series of battles between the Italian colonial forces and the Libyan armed opposition under Omar Mukhtar.
Omar Mukhtar - picture from National Museum in Tripoli
In March, 1927, despite occupation of Giarabub from February of 1926 and increasingly stringent rule under Governor Attilio Teruzzi, Mukhtar surprised Italian troops at Raheiba. Between 1927 and 1928, Mukhtar fully reorganized the Senusite forces, who were being hunted constantly by the Italians.
The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and Sudan founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi, Sayyid Muhammad ibn Ali as-Senussi.
He was influenced by the Wahhabi Movement, to which he added teachings from various Sufi orders. From 1902 to 1913 the Senussi fought French expansion in the Sahara, and the Italian colonisation of Libya beginning in 1911. The Sanusi order has been historically closed to Europeans and outsiders, leading reports of their beliefs and practices to vary immensely.
Mukhtar’s struggle of nearly twenty years came to an end on September 11, 1931, when he was wounded in battle, then captured by the Italian army. Mukhtar was tried, convicted, and, on September 14, 1931, he was sentenced to be hanged.
From 1912 to 1927, the territory of Libya was known as Italian North Africa. From 1927 to 1934, the territory was split into two colonies run by Italian governors, Italian Cyrenaica and Italian Tripolitania. During the Italian colonial period, between 20% and 50% of the Libyan population died in the struggle for independence, and mainly in prison camps. Some 150,000 Italians settled in Libya, constituting roughly one-fifth of the total population.
In 1934, Italy adopted the name "Libya" (used by the Greeks for all of North Africa, except Egypt) as the official name of the colony (made up of the three provinces of Cyrenaica, Tripolitania and Fezzan). The Grand Senussi's grandson became King Idris I of Libya in 1951. King Idris I, Emir of Cyrenaica, led Libyan resistance to Italian occupation between the two world wars.
Between 1928 and 1932 the Italian military "killed half the Bedouin population (directly or through starvation in camps)."From 1943 to 1951, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica were under British administration, while the French controlled Fezzan. In 1944, Idris returned from exile in Cairo but declined to resume permanent residence in Cyrenaica until the removal of some aspects of foreign control in 1947. Under the terms of the 1947 peace treaty with the Allies, Italy relinquished all claims to Libya.
On September 1, 1969, a small group of military officers led by Gaddafi staged a bloodless coup d'état against King Idris I, while he was in Kamena Vourla, a Greek resort, for medical treatment. His nephew the Crown Prince Sayyid Hasan ar-Rida al-Mahdi as-Sanussi had been formally deposed by the revolutionary army officers and put under house arrest; they abolished the monarchy and proclaimed the new Libyan Arab Republic.
Some interesting things about all of this regarding race.
A Black man starts a revolutionary war to rid his country of White foreigners, and is successful. But his people are ultimately usurped by White foreigners from within – the Turk Gaddafi.
Colonel Gaddafi
In 1982, a movie was made about Omar Mukhtar called “the Lion of the Desert”
It starred a White Mexican, Anthony Quinn.
Anthony Quinn
In the Movie, Omar Mukhtar’s Senussi soldiers were Turks.
Note that the "ONE" Black guy is an innocent bystander in servants garb.
But the REAL “Senussi” were Blacks.
In the foreground is one of the notable Bedouin chiefs of Kufra and one of the Senussi soldiers.
{1924 National Geographic picture}
Even today, Ghaddafi’s troops are Black.
Libyan female soldiers attend a celebration to mark the 36th anniversary of the Libyan Revolution.
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We are all used to seeing pictures of White people who proclaim themselves Berbers – even to the EXCLUSION of the REAL BERBERS who are BLACK People.
White people who call themselves Berbers
That usurpation of IDENITY has been going on for a very long time.
In modern times it was given modern media emphasis by the Oxford educated Egyptian Turk Ahmed Hassanein Bey, who in 1923 did an expedition across Libya. And in 1924 did an article in National Geographic. Some of his comments regarding the people and their race are VERY interesting.
Hassanein Bey
THE NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE CROSSING THE UNTRAVERSED LIBYAN DESERT September, 1924
The journey of Hassanein Bey, graduate of Oxford University and now Secretary of the Egyptian Legation in Washington, from Sollum, on the shores of the Mediterranean, to El Obeid, in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, a distance of 2200 miles, has been characterized by the Director of Desert Survey, Egypt, as "an almost unique achievement in the annals of geographic exploration."
The expedition was undertaken with the encouragement of His Majesty (the Turkish) King Fouad I of Egypt, a member of the National Geographic Society.
TO HIM who has the wanderlust, no other actuating motive for exploration is needed than the knowledge that a region is unknown to civilized man; but for my trip from Sollum to El Obeid through the hitherto untraversed Libyan Desert, I had the additional incentive of exploring the western frontiers of my native Egypt and of the Sudan.
After my desert journey to the Oasis of Kufra in1921, my sovereign manifested special interest in a proposed undertaking to bridge the gap between Kufra and El Fasher Therefore, on December 21, 1922, I landed in Sollum and organized the nucleus of a caravan which was to take me on a trip, occupying more than six months, through the Libyan Desert, that vast expense of arid land lying to the west of the Nile Valley, from the Mediterranean coast down to the Sudan.
The Libyan Desert is inhabited in the north, down to Kufra, by white Bedouin Arabs. The Arabic word "Bedouin" means "dweller of the desert," as opposed to the "dweller of the city." Nowadays, however, it has come to mean any man who goes from one place to another to graze his cattle in the desert. It is used equally for the white Bedouin and the black Bedouin—anybody who lives the roaming life of those sterile wastes.
In the south, this region is inhabited by tribes of blacks— Tebu, Goran, and Bidiat—who are rather more refined in features than the central African Negroes.
The reader sees always connected with the Libyan Desert the word Senussi. Many people think the Senussi are a tribe or a people. In reality, they are a sect of the Moslem religion embracing all the tribes of Cyrenaica and having influence in North Africa and the region south of Kufra. It is a comparatively recent sect, being only about 80 years old.
It has been said by explorers that the tribes of Cyrenaica, who are all under Senussi influence, are actuated by religious fanaticism when they refuse foreigners permission to enter their territory. To my great interest, however, I discovered that not religious, but patriotic, fervor is the impelling principle. Their reasoning is simple. They do not want any aliens to come into the country, for they say foreigners mean domination, domination means paying taxes, and they do not want to pay taxes! Therefore, the best way to avoid taxes is to prevent any stranger from entering the region.
THE JUDGE AT JALO WHO LIVED IN THE TIME OF THE GRAND SENUSSI
ZWAYA CHIEFS OF KUFRA
SAYED MOHAMMED EL ABED, COUSIN OF THE HEAD OF THE SENUSSI SECT AND THE RULER OF KUFRA
SAYED MOHAMMED EL ABED'S NEPHEW WITH HIS TUTOR, A SENUSSI "IKHWAN" (LEARNED MAN)
Near Zieghen – north of Kufra A TEBU GIRL The Bedouin style of her apparel and the jewelry which she wears show the influence of Arab civilization on the blacks of the desert.
"The southern portion of the 1ibyan Desert is inhabited by tribes of blacks—Tebu, Goran, and Bidiat—who are rather more refined in features than the central African negroes"
Continued on next post.
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The camp at Bao, on the frontier between the French Sudan and the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.
GIRLS OF THE FOR TRIBE NEAR AL FASHER
SONS OF GORAN CHIEFS AT AGAH, BEYOND ERDI
Do you know what the funny thing is? He never did show any "White" Berbers.
Anyone wondering where the concept of Caucasian Blacks come from; it might well be these ass-hole Turks.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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These pictures prove nothing, they could be anyone. You cannot EVER make a point posting pictures. It should never be done.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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I doubt Turks or Arabs had much to do with distorting history (in comparison to European colonialists)
I've posted this many times before but the bellow article talks about French mistranslating Arabic literature. Using some logic here if "Arabs" were distorting history the French distorted it even further
quote:Apart from being the focus of some superstitions, most Afro-Turks say they have never been humiliated or discriminated against by the society. However, overcoming prejudice while looking for someone to marry is not as easy as one would hope. Kayacan notes that sometimes the family does not approve of their son or daughter marrying an Afro-Turk.
Afro-Turks are often called “Arabs” in Turkey. They also refer to themselves as Arabs, at times. This has led to a situation in which “Arab” means “black.” Ege University Professor Ahmet Yürür explains. “For the Turks, Africa was only the northern part of the continent: from Egypt to Morocco. This part was of course under Arab influence. Turks were never really interested in the south of the continent. This is why this community has come to be called ‘Arab,’” he says.
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Evidence "Arabs" were not distorting history. The two comments in bold show that those were common knowledge in the Muslim world not something hidden or little known.
And it has been remarked that even Alexander the Great is in Asia an unknown personage by the side of this honoured Negro
quote:A third very important influence which has retarded the development of the Christian Negro may be found in the social and literary pressure which he has undergone. It is not too much to say that the popular literature of the Christian world, since the discovery of America, or at least for the last two hundred years, has been anti-Negro. The Mohammedan Negro has felt nothing of the withering power of caste. There is nothing in his colour or race to debar him from the highest privileges, social or political, to which any other Muslim can attain. The slave who becomes a Mohammedan is free.' Mohammedan history abounds with examples of distinguished Negroes. The eloquent Adzan or Call to Prayer, which to this day summons at the same hours millions of the human race to their devotions, was first uttered by a Negro, Bilal by name, whom Mohammed, in obedience to a dream, appointed the first Muezzin or Crier. And it has been remarked that even Alexander the Great is in Asia an unknown personage by the side of this honoured Negro. Mr. Muir notices the inflexible constancy of Bilal to the faith of Islam under the severest trials. Ibn Khallikan mentions a celebrated Negro Khalif, who reigned at Bagdad in the ninth century.He describes him as a man of great merit, and a perfect scholar. None of the sons of Khalifs spoke with greater propriety and elegance, or composed verses with greater ability.....
Christian literature has nothing to show on behalf of the Negro comparable to Mohammedan literature; and there is nothing in Mohammedan literature corresponding to the Negro—or ' nigger ' as even a liberal clergyman like Mr. Haweis will call him of Christian caricaturists.
quote:To the Jews Muhammad was indebted for almost all the stories and many of the laws in the Quran. This, with strange misunderstandings, gives a large part of pre= Christian religious history. Moses, e. g., was a black man!
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markellion – Thank you for bringing that up: Yes I am well aware of the condescending bullsh1t associated with the one called “the Negro servant Bilal”.
As you know the thread title is “Is Libya an example of Turk/Arab Racism in North Africa in Microcosm?”
But it could just as easily been Arabia; As a matter of fact, it SHOULD have been Arabia, because that is where the Lying White Turkish bullsh1t seems to have begun - using the religion of Islam. But they may have taken their inspiration from the White Greeks of Egypt and the Romans. I will explain.
As you should know, the Hebrew religion existed since the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt in about 1600 B.C. In 282 B.C. the Greek king of Egypt, Ptolemy II (Philadelphus), had their beliefs documented in the first Bible, the SEPTUAGINT. Then in the current era, a Hebrew named Jesus started a new sect, based on the old Hebrew religion. The Romans killed him, and usurped his new religion and called it Christianity; this became their State religion.
But there was a problem, Jesus was a Black Hebrew; naturally he wouldn’t do as a religious God for White people in Europe. So the Greeks and Romans simply made him White, and wrote Blacks out of their versions of history, and in their subsequent re-written versions of the Hebrew religious books, except of course in passing references, such as the Turks did with Bilal.
Whatever vestiges of the original Hebrew religion still remained in the White Christian religion, were finally removed in 1961 when under a joint committee, representative of the major Protestant churches of the British Isles, with Roman Catholics appointed as observers, the newly written, “New Testament” was published, and a second edition appeared in 1970.
P.S. I often wonder if the Pope, or any of the White religious leaders, actually believes in God! I mean, if Jesus was indeed the Son of God, and the Son of God is a Black man, then his “CHOSEN” people were also Black people, and they were all killed off by White people, plus all the lies… You see where I’m going? For sure, Hell awaits!
BTW – That is why you will NEVER see the “Dead Sea Scrolls” released to the public. They contain the ENTIRE “Old Testament” and their release would prove the Lying nature of today’s White Religions.
Did anybody see AP post above? TheAmericanPatriot - These pictures prove nothing, they could be anyone. You cannot EVER make a point posting pictures. It should never be done.
AP – Are you that stupid, or do you think that Black people are so stupid that they need a White man to tell them what they see? (Okay, okay, I know that SOME Negroes are THAT stupid).
Anyway, wasn’t it a White man who said that a picture is worth a thousand words?
But back to the point:
As with the race of the Berbers, pictures really weren’t necessary, a little common sense should have sufficed. But unfortunately we live in a time when Whites are going all-out to defend their previous misdeeds as relates to their made-up histories. Therefore pictures and logic are the necessary weapons of Truth.
Lets get to the race of the REAL Arabs.
Extreme heat and aridity are characteristic of most of Saudi Arabia. It is one of the few places in the world where summer temperatures above 122 °F have been recorded, with 51.1 °C (124 °F) being the highest temperature ever recorded in Saudi Arabia at Dhahran in 1956.
From this Assyrian stele made in 645 B.C. We can clearly see that the TRUE Arab is a Black man. Now for people like AP, who might say; “He looks White to me” He he. I would say this; Note that the man is SHIRTLESS. AP what kind of White man can SURVIVE in 124 degree SUNLIGHT: Shirtless?????????????
This is what a REAL Modern Arab looks like.
Bedoins' In Saudi Arabia
Then who the hell are these people, and how did they get there, you ask?
Good question: I will explain.
They are Turks, and they got there the same way that they got in North Africa – by conquest!
Muhammad Ali (Pasha): In March 1803 the British were evacuated in accordance with the Peace of Amiens. But the Ottomans, determined to reassert their control over Egypt remained, establishing their power through a viceroy and an occupying army of Albanians. The Albanians later mutinied and installed their own leader as acting viceroy. When he was assassinated shortly afterward, the command of the Albanians passed to his lieutenant, Muhammad Ali.
In Arabia, the domination of Mecca and Medina by puritanical Wahhabi Muslims was a serious embarrassment to the Ottoman sultan, who was the titular overlord of the Arabian territory of the Hejaz and the leading Muslim sovereign. At the invitation of Sultan Mahmud II (1808-39), Muhammad Ali sent an expedition to Arabia that between 1811 and 1813 expelled the Wahhabis from the Hejaz. In a further campaign (1816-18), Ibrahim Pasha, the viceroy's eldest son, defeated the Wahhabis in their homeland of Najd, and brought central Arabia under Albanian control.
Question: Do you think that the "Champ" would have taken the name "Muhammad Ali" if he had known a little history? That's what happens when you start believing White Man Bullsh1t, even if he has brown skin.
Note: Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Jews (khazars), and of course Turkey, are all Turkic people. They first started migrating to Europe and the Middle East, from central Asia in the early part of the current era. Those in Turkey, North Africa, the Middle East, and Arabia, are not “Pure White” because of admixture with the indigenous Blacks that they conquered.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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"But it could just as easily been Arabia; As a matter of fact, it SHOULD have been Arabia, because that is where the Lying White Turkish bullsh1t seems to have begun"
Maybe the Turks in Egypt and other places were just copying what European colonialists said. What about Turks in Turkey who associate black with Arab?
"THE PREDOMINANT AND ORIGINAL POPULATION OF ANCIENT EGYPT ACCORDING TO EUROPEAN “SCHOLARS” AND “HISTORIANS” – Edited by Dana Marniche
quote:Up until the 19th century, and in the centuries previous, European visitors to Egypt commonly contrasted the dark brown, half-naked and indigenous Fellaheen agriculturalists with the fair or pale-complexioned Turkish-originated population of Egypt dressed in robes and furs that had entered the country in large numbers. Today most natives of the United Arab Republic of Eygpt consider themselves (thanks to European colonials) representative of the indigenous people of ancient Egypt
quote: "Turks with African ancestors want their existence to be felt"
quote:Afro-Turks are often called “Arabs” in Turkey. They also refer to themselves as Arabs, at times. This has led to a situation in which “Arab” means “black.”
quote:All Muslims believe that humankind is descended from Adam. Muslims also believe what Allah (God) says in the Quran about the creation of our father Adam. Muslims believe that Allah's creation of Adam was a special creation and that Allah (God) didn't simply say "Be" and he was, but He (Allah) created and fashioned our father Adam with His own two hands. Allah chose what to create our father Adam from and what characteristics to give him. Allah says in the Quran that He created our father Adam from black mud.
"Verily We created man from a black, fermented clay."
As you can see, Allah (God) says that he created our father Adam from black mud. That makes it quite clear what color Adam was. Not only that, but Allah (God) then named our father Adam "Adam", which means black-skinned.
Allah (God) then ordered Iblis (Satan) to bow down to His special creation that He created with His own two hands. However, Iblis (Satan) was arrogant and he refused to bow and said:
"I refuse to bow down to a man that You created from black, fermented mud."
Iblis (Satan) thought that he was better than our father Adam. This was the first example of prejudice--the first example of comparing and judging. Allah (God) then cursed Iblis (Satan) and expelled him from Paradise. Iblis asked Allah (God) to delay his punishment until the Day of Resurrection and Allah (God) agreed to do so. Iblis then said that he would mislead as many of the children of Adam that he could. One way that he is trying to mislead them is by convincing many of them to dislike the color that Allah (God) chose to create our father Adam. Iblis saw our father Adam and knows what color he was even if many of the children of Adam don't know today. This is why you find this distaste for dark skin today and racial prejudice against dark-skinned people. Iblis (Satan) encourages man to dislike and look down on what Allah chose, hence the distaste for dark skin in the minds, hearts, and on the tongues of many of the children of Adam. It all goes back to Iblis (Satan) and his arrogance and his hatred toward our father Adam and his looking down on our father Adam and his thinking that he knows what is good better than Allah (God). Iblis promised that he would mislead the children of Adam and make them follow his way and this is exactly what he is doing.
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markellion - Yes, and of course "Arab" should mean Black, Just as African means Black. The Turks got that right at least.
But to a matter of clarification; Above I wrote..
Quote: Those in Turkey, North Africa, the Middle East, and Arabia, are not “Pure White” because of admixture with the indigenous Blacks that they conquered.
The phrase “Pure White” must of course be taken in context. The Bulgarians and Romanians are of course not “Pure White”, as a matter of fact, I don't know that ANY White people are “Pure White” since leaving central Asia 3,000 years ago.
As mentioned above Quote: The dispersal of Berbers north as far as Ireland and Scandinavia is documented in genetic markers studied by physical anthropologists.
Add to that the DNA of the Celts who inhabited central Europe north to Germany, and the entire West coast of Europe from Spain to Britain. And the original Etruscans of Italy, plus the original Anatolian's of Turkey, who inhabited Greece and the Mediterranean and Aegean islands; and you now have a very diverse gene pool.
For the Bulgarians and Romanians, the indigenous Black people that they mixed with were the Thracian's. We know from our previous discussion of the "Varna Culture" that the Thracian's were indeed a Black people.
So “Pure White” is a relative term; relative to how large the Black population originally was in the area of interest, and how many Blacks were still alive after the fighting was over. As you can see from the picture below, some Bulgarians are relatively pale, indicating that there was not a lot of Thracian's left alive to admix with.
Bulgarian Girl
Contrast that with Anatolia (Turkey), which had a HUGE original Black population before the White Turks came in - and it shows!!
Turkish Boys
But this issue of who is a “Pure White” (if there is such a thing anymore), is an ongoing debate. It was first brought to the fore by Adolf Hitler, who claimed that Germans were “Pure blood Arian's” (not Aryan's - that was the term for Persian nobles), and thus the only “Pure White” people left.
Though Hitler was totally off-base when it came to the Arian's, they migrated to India and Persia, and are not know to have entered Europe. And I don't think that anyone would claim that a Hindu or a modern Iranian is “Pure White”.
But, the Shah of Iran did make a try for it; in about 1934 he re-named the White conquered Persia - Iran, meaning "Land of the Arian's".
But still, Hitler may have had a point: when the Germanic tribes first entered Europe in the Roman era. they seemed to have established what is now Germany, as the demarcation point between Whites who were migrating in from Asia - and taking over the sparsely populated Northern Europe, and Blacks who mainly lived south of Germany. This is documented by Julius Caesar, in his book, Commentarii de Bello Gallico.
From - Julius Caesar, in his book, Commentarii de Bello Gallico
Quote: All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. The Garonne River separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the River Marne and the River Seine separate them from the Belgae. Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilisation and refinement of (our) Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germani, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valour, as they contend with the Germani in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers.
One part of these, which it has been said that the Gauls occupy, takes its beginning at the River Rhone; it is bounded by the Garonne River, the Atlantic Ocean, and the territories of the Belgae; it borders, too, on the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii, upon the River Rhine, and stretches toward the north. The Belgae rises from the extreme frontier of Gaul, extend to the lower part of the River Rhine; and look toward the north and the rising sun. Aquitania extends from the Garonne to the Pyrenees and to that part of the Atlantic (Bay of Biscay) which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star.
So though Hitler was a nutcase, he may have had a point. And for sure, many Germans are very Pale.
Of course you know that Hitlers problem with the Jews (Khazars) had NOTHING to do with race. It was all about money; Germany was broke, and German Jews were the ONLY people who still had money - lots of it!
As a matter of fact, up until modern times, the Khazars remained relatively pure-blood. So they were just as White as Hitler, the only difference being religion.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'm just saying this because it seems like everyone looks everywhere except the major European colonial powers for the origin of the extreme racism that exists today
"and of course "Arab" should mean Black, Just as African means Black. The Turks got that right at least."
Those are Turks in Turkey but in other places they would be indoctrinated by European racial theories, theories that did not originate from Turkey
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No , People her are twisting what is in Quran ,Allah did not say that he created Adam from Black Mud This is not in the verse ,you are using a fake translation ,the verse only says that he is created from mud not black mud do not lie
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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markellion and Ahmad – Who are you boys trying to kid? Modern Islam is no different than Christianity in its modern function. That function being to legitimize the reign of White foreign conquers in Black lands.
Just as White Europeans re-wrote the Hebrew religion to accomplish that task; and when they found that even the re-written version was insufficient, they then wrote an ENTIRELY new book – the “New Testament” to accomplish their task.
Well, the White Turks did the same thing! They added books called the Hadith. Which serves the same function as the New Testament.
The REAL Black Arabs of the Desert weren’t buying into the Islam thing.
Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."
So here comes the Hadith! The funny thing though, is that in the Hadith books, you can tell what race the author is!
For example:
Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923) was a White Turk living in occupied Persia.
Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."
Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."
{Note; I have no idea what he was trying to say. If you can translate, please do.}
But all of that aside: do you know what the truly PATHETIC thing is??
Europeans are still for all intents and purposes - still WHITE!!
While it is true that the original Turks were White people – and Northern Turks still are:
You ass-holes long ago left your claims to pureblood behind! You are Mutts, Mulattos, half-breeds, mixed-race – whatever word you like! Yet you ass-holes want to carry-on like White Europeans who DON’T have Black fathers! Like I asked one of your kind a few weeks back – What do you say to your Black fathers? (Meaning father, grandfather, great-grandfather – whatever). My guess is that you wouldn’t get a chance to say anything, his foot being too far up your ass, for you to talk. Lucky for you, the dead can’t come back!
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"Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."
That makes sense to me. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Wasn't Islam basically about Arabs being so backward that God had to help them out of ignorance? Wasn't Ethiopia called the righteous land where no one is wronged?
quote:The REAL Black Arabs of the Desert weren’t buying into the Islam thing.
So Turks were ruling the country at this time?
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quote:the Abyssinians (Ethiopians), the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia
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markellion - No Turks were not ruling the country at that time - They came later.
Quote: Does this mean Islam is an inherently ANTI-ARAB religion!
Like all of the White "captured" Black religions - it is anti-Black.
I don't know Mohammad's ethnicity, some say that he was Arab, some say that he was Mesopotamian. I have two versions of his bio, one by a Muslim and one by Christians. If you are interested I will post it.
Yes - Ethiopia was a big player in Arabia, note the following history - Southwest Baptist University.
Christian Advance in Arabia, 300 A.D. to 600 A.D.
Christian Missions had continued to penetrate Arabia with its backward and illiterate population since the second century. Most of the evidence of this expansion consists of references by Syrian and Palestinian authors of the many Arabian Christians who come over to visit shrines and monasteries in the Roman realm.
The first known bishop to the Arabian nomads was Pamphilos Bishop of the Tannaye whose signature stands among his fellow bishops who signed the Nicene Creed in 325. The Tannaye were likely a tribe or clan related to the western Tanukhs living in the Syrian desert somewhere between Damascus and the Euphrates. The Tanukhs had migrated from Yemen. Mawiyya, the Christian queen of the western Tanukhs after the death of her husband about 373 rebelled from the Roman Emperor Valens, demanded and received from him a desert ascetic to serve as bishop for her tribe as the price of loyalty.
The successors of these western Tanukhs included the Ghassan tribe (banu Jafn), very prominent along the western fringe of the Syrian desert during the fifth and sixth centuries. They continued to be identified as Christians, and their chiefs entered into treaties with the Roman emperors to guard the Roman frontiers. Their sheik, Al-Harith ibn Jabala al-A'raj, was a favorite of Emperor Justinian, who allowed him to consolidate the several tribes along the whole desert frontier into a confederation under his rule.
Another early Christian development in Arabia was the result of outreach from the Church of the East during the times of the heaviest persecution by the Sassanids. Christianity was established in Qatar and Bahrain on the Persian Gulf about 390. Also at Hira, in the desert fringe near Babylon, the staging point for a caravan route to Yemen, a settled (not nomadic) community of Arabian Christians existed from about 400.
Hira was ruled during the fifth and sixth centuries by the leaders of the Arabian Lakhmid tribe (banu Lakhmid) who were also part of the Tanukh migration from Yemen to the north. Since the Lakhmid king of Hira was subject to the Sassanid overlords of Persia it was not politically correct for them to be Christian, but during the sixth century many of the women of the royal clan were prominent Christians.
There is another nearly legendary account of the mission of Theophilus the deacon whom Emperor Constantius send in 356 as ambassador to India. He was delayed in Yemen awaiting the proper sailing season and took the opportunity to found three or four churches there.
Among his converts were the Himyarites, the ruling clan in that region. The numbers of Christians in Yemen increased as many Christians from Persia came to Yemen as refugees as a result of the intermittent persecution in Persia during the fourth and fifth centuries.
Early in the fifth century a Yemani merchant named Hayyan based in the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen traveled to Constantinople on business and returned by way of The Euphrates. He came to al-Hirta (Hira) on the edge of the desert preparing to join a caravan heading for Yemen. At al-Hirta the Christian Arabs who had been evangelized by the Church of the East converted him. Hayyan spent the rest of his life evangelizing his fellow Arabs in the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen.
Meanwhile the Himyarite ruling clan had adopted Judaism! About 500 AD the neighboring southwestern Arabian region of Najran began to be evangelized by a Syrian Jacobite (Monophysite) ascetic Phemion who had been captured in the north and brought there as a slave. For various reasons violence broke out between Yemen and Najran about 522 with the Jacobite Christians of Najran burning Jewish Synagogue buildings and the Jews of Yemen vandalizing Christian church buildings.
In 523 in response to an appeal from the Christians of Najran the ruler of the Christian (Monophysite) Ethiopian kingdom of Axum, Ela Asbeha, drove dhu Nawas, the Jewish Himyarite King of Yemen from his capital and installed an Ethiopian garrison.
The Himyarite Jewish king dhu-Nawas counterattacked, slaughtered the garrison and then ruthlessly exterminated the Christians in Najran. The Christians of Ethiopia sent a massive retaliatory force under the general Abraha who killed dhu Nawas and installed a puppet governor at San'a. This puppet ruled for about a decade before Abraha declared himself king about 535. Under Abraha's rule, till 570, Christianity flourished in southwestern Arabia.
The Persian king Chosroes I conquered and ruled southwestern Arabia between 570 and 580, but the Christians survived, especially in Najran.
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quote:Like all of the White "captured" Black religions - it is anti-Black.
How can it be a white religion?????
For people just logging on here don't listen to Mike, any anti-black bias in the Koran/bible/Iliad is because of mistranslations/misinterpretations
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: markellion and Ahmad – Who are you boys trying to kid? Modern Islam is no different than Christianity in its modern function. That function being to legitimize the reign of White foreign conquers in Black lands.
Just as White Europeans re-wrote the Hebrew religion to accomplish that task; and when they found that even the re-written version was insufficient, they then wrote an ENTIRELY new book – the “New Testament” to accomplish their task.
Well, the White Turks did the same thing! They added books called the Hadith. Which serves the same function as the New Testament.
The REAL Black Arabs of the Desert weren’t buying into the Islam thing.
Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."
So here comes the Hadith! The funny thing though, is that in the Hadith books, you can tell what race the author is!
For example:
Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923) was a White Turk living in occupied Persia.
Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."
Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."
{Note; I have no idea what he was trying to say. If you can translate, please do.}
But all of that aside: do you know what the truly PATHETIC thing is??
Europeans are still for all intents and purposes - still WHITE!!
While it is true that the original Turks were White people – and Northern Turks still are:
You ass-holes long ago left your claims to pureblood behind! You are Mutts, Mulattos, half-breeds, mixed-race – whatever word you like! Yet you ass-holes want to carry-on like White Europeans who DON’T have Black fathers! Like I asked one of your kind a few weeks back – What do you say to your Black fathers? (Meaning father, grandfather, great-grandfather – whatever). My guess is that you wouldn’t get a chance to say anything, his foot being too far up your ass, for you to talk. Lucky for you, the dead can’t come back!
there is no a single true statement in your post about Islam nor about Hadith!! and when you said that Hadith tells the race of the narrator,lol this was the most bulcrap I have ever heard
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posted
Ahmad - I am not an expert on religion, and really have no particular interest in discussing religion. As you will recall, the thread issue is Turkish racism - and the silliness thereof. It is simply that some religious issues are well known and often discussed and written about. And I used these issues to make my point. So I will answer you question and let that be the end of the religious discussion.
You call it Bullcrap when I said that the Hadith tells the race of the narrator. Well I didn’t mean just the Hadith, I meant ANY writing that deals with race. When you, I, or anybody speaks of race, they use their OWN race as the basis, and extrapolate about others from that base.
When the White Turk living in occupied Persia - Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923). Wrote the quotes below about race; He was SUPPOSEDLY quoting the WHITE account of Noah (Gilgamesh) written in Genesis, chapters 6–9: Which is BASED on the SUMERIAN Epic of Gilgamesh a mythical King of Uruk.
Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."
Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."
I have found that it is very useful to go all the way back, and see what the original sources actually said. So lets see what the ORIGINAL account actually says!
The Epic of Gilgamesh is, perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. It comes to us from Ancient Sumer, and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in cunieform script. It is about the adventures of the historical King of Uruk (somewhere between 2750 and 2500 BCE) This translation is based on the "standard" Akkadian translated "edition", but is filled in with excerpts from the Old Babylonian where necessary.
Excerpt of the Epic of Gilgamesh:
[Preamble}
Take and read out from the lapis lazuli tablet how Gilgamesh went through every hardship. Supreme over other kings, lordly in appearance, he is the hero, born of Uruk, the goring wild bull. He walks our in front, the leader, and walks at the ear, trusted by his companions. Mighty net, protector of his people, raging flood-wave who destroys even walls of stone! Offspring of Lugalbanda, Gilgamesh is strong to perfection, son of the august cow, Rimat-Ninsun;... Gilgamesh is awesome to perfection. It was he who opened the mountain passes, who dug wells on the flank of the mountain. It was he who crossed the ocean, the vast seas, to the rising sun, who explored the world regions, seeking life. It was he who reached by his own sheer strength Utanapishtim, the Faraway, who restored the sanctuaries (or: cities) that the Flood had destroyed! ... for teeming mankind.
picking up with the building of the Ark.
I provided it with six decks, thus dividing it into seven (levels). The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments). I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part. I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the bitumen kiln, three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it, there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vegetable) oil, apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!) and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!), and day upon day I slaughtered sheep. I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were river water, so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival. ... and I set my hand to the oiling(!). The boat was finished by sunset. The launching was very difficult. They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back, until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?).
Whatever I had I loaded on it: whatever silver I had 1 loaded on it, whatever gold I had I loaded on it. All the living beings that I had I loaded on it, I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat, all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I had go up. Shamash had set a stated time:
'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat! Go inside the boat, seal the entry!' That stated time had arrived.
In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat. I watched the appearance of the weather-- the weather was frightful to behold!
I went into the boat and sealed the entry. For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman, I gave the palace together with its contents. Just as dawn began to glow there arose from the horizon a black cloud. Adad rumbled inside of it, before him went Shullat and Hanish, heralds going over mountain and land. Erragal pulled out the mooring poles, forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches, setting the land ablaze with their flare. Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens, and turned to blackness all that had been light. The... land shattered like a... pot. All day long the South Wind blew ..., blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water, overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow, they could not recognize each other in the torrent. The gods were frightened by the Flood, and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu. The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall. Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth, the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed: 'The olden days have alas turned to clay, because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods! How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods, ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!! No sooner have I given birth to my dear people than they fill the sea like so many fish!' The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her, the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief(?), their lips burning, parched with thirst. Six days and seven nights, came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land. When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding, the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up. I looked around all day long--quiet had set in and all the human beings had turned to clay! The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of my nose. I fell to my knees and sat weeping, tears streaming down the side of my nose. I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea, and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
When a seventh day arrived I sent forth a dove and released it. The dove went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a swallow and released it. The swallow went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me. Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed a sheep.
Nowhere in this original story, is there any mention of Gilgamesh (Noah) having sons.
BTW - This is what a King of Uruk actually looked like.
posted
Ahmad Quote: - So Do not use Islam when you do not know what you are talking about,thank you.
^^I didn't bring it up, you and markellion did.
Okay, having established that the Hebrew/Christian/Islamic creation Myth, is derived from the Sumerian creation myth. Let's see who the Hebrews were, and how and why, they involved themselves in Sumerian myth.
The Hebrews were a nomadic desert people from southern Anatolia (Turkey) called Amurru, later called Amorites, the Sumerians called this land "Tidnum". There were at least three branches of Anatolian's. Those that inhabited central Anatolia (like the Hattie) may have created the beginnings of civilization, as they were the ones to build the first monumental structures.
Another branch of Anatolian's lived in the land north of Sumer called Akkad. In about 2,200 B.C. one of their kings "Sargon" was able to seize power in Sumer and make himself king.
The nomadic branch of the Anatolian's began warring and settling in Sumer starting at about 3,000 B.C. In about 1792 B.C. one of their kings "Hammurabi" was able to seize power in Sumer and make himself king.
Over the many centuries that these Amorites were in Sumer, they culturally and religiously became Sumerians. The last king of Hammurabi's dynasty was Samsuditana (1625-1595 B.C.) who was overthrown when the Hattie from Anatolia, under their king "Mursilis I" sacked Babylon.
Meanwhile in Egypt: The 12th. dynasty had come to an end. It had been a period of great prosperity in Egypt, with a great many building projects, and a great many foreign workers coming in to work on those projects, those workers were mainly Hebrews. (The word Hebrew is derived from the Egyptian word "Habiri" meaning "one who sells his services".)
By about 1700 B.C. they had taken control of all of Northern Egypt, and established the Hyksos (15th.) dynasty. Hyksos means (foreign Kings) or (Shepherd Kings).
At about 1575 B.C. Egyptian king Tao I of Thebes, started a war to drive the Hyksos out of Egypt. The war was successful, and the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt and into Canaan. Over the many centuries that these Amorites were in Egypt, they culturally and religiously became Egyptian.
Meanwhile in Canaan: By the Middle Bronze Age (2000 B.C.), Amorites who were originally nomads from the desert regions to the east, had penetrated Canaan and were inhabiting the hilly areas around the cities. From these hills, they launched raids and harassment attacks against the Canaanite cities.
After the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt into Canaan, they joined with the Hebrew raiders who had already been establishing settlements there. Together they formed the new nation of Judea/Israel in Canaan.
Back in Sumer: After the fall of Samsuditana's Amorite dynasty in Sumer, Terah the father of Abraham - the patriarch of the Hebrews in Israel. (Genesis 17:5) gathered up his family, which was his three sons, Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Abram married Sarai. Thare took Abram and his wife, Sarai, and Lot, the son of Haran, who was dead, and leaving Ur of the Chaldees, came to Harran (an Anatolian city) and dwelt there till he died.
From the above history, we can see that the Hebrews had a least four cultural and religious influences in their makeup.
1) From their native Anatolia. 2) From Sumer. 3) From Egypt. 4) From Canaan.
These four cultural and religious influences would all become a part of their new religion.
BTW - This is what the Hebrews in Judea/Israel actually looked like.
All right, we have looked at the background: Now lets look at Genesis and see what it actually says.
Genesis 6
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
[After the Flood had ended:] 18 - The sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Ham was the father of Canaan. 19These three were the sons of Noah; and from these the whole earth was peopled. 20 - Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backwards and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said,
Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.
He also said, ‘Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.
May God make space for* Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.’
28 - After the flood Noah lived for three hundred and fifty years. All the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.
Whoa: hold-on a minute, WHERE IS ALL OF THE RACIAL STUFF???
All of the versions of Genesis that I have seen, are pretty much the same as above, so what’s going on? All serious scholars agree that there were no racial references in the original, so how did those racial references, that we are all so familiar with, get in there?
Ahmad – Now you will see how you can tell the race of the author!
A number of early Jewish writers have interpreted the Biblical narrative of Ham in a racial way. The Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 108b states "Our Rabbis taught: Three copulated in the ark, and they were all punished — the dog, the raven, and Ham. The dog was doomed to be tied, the raven expectorates [his seed into his mate's mouth], and Ham was smitten in his skin." {Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 108b} The nature of Ham's "smitten" skin is unexplained, but later commentaries described this as a darkening of skin. A later note to the text states that the "smitten" skin referred to the blackness of descendants, and a later comment by rabbis in the Bereshit Rabbah asserts that Ham himself emerged from the ark black-skinned. The Zohar states that Ham's son Canaan "darkened the faces of mankind".
Here we know that we are dealing with the White Turks of the Khazar tribe; who like to believe, and have everyone else believe, that they are Hebrews. As we should all know by now, they are liars!
MORE WHITE PEOPLE, AND THEIR MADE-UP LIES AND BULLSH1T
Origen (circa 185-c. 254): “For the Egyptians are prone to a degenerate life and quickly sink to every slavery of the vices. Look at the origin of the race and you will discover that their father Cham, who had laughed at his father’s nakedness, deserved a judgment of this kind, that his son Chanaan should be a servant to his brothers, in which case the condition of bondage would prove the wickedness of his conduct. Not without merit, therefore, does the discolored posterity imitate the ignobility of the race [Non ergo immerito ignobilitatem decolor posteritas imitatur].” Homilies on Genesis 16.1
Ephrem the Syrian said: When Noah awoke and was told what Canaan did. . .Noah said, ‘Cursed be Canaan and may God make his face black,’ and immediately the face of Canaan changed; so did of his father Ham, and their white faces became black and dark and their color changed.” Paul de Lagarde, Materialien zur Kritik und Geschichte des Pentateuchs (Leipzig, 1867), part II
The Eastern Christian work, the Cave of Treasures (4th century), explicitly connects slavery with dark-skinned people: “When Noah awoke. . .he cursed him and said: ‘Cursed be Ham and may he be slave to his brothers’. . .and he became a slave, he and his lineage, namely the Egyptians, the Abyssinians, and the Indians. Indeed, Ham lost all sense of shame and he became black and was called shameless all the days of his life, forever.” La caverne des trésors: version Géorgienne, ed. Ciala Kourcikidzé, trans. Jean-Pierre Mahé, Corpus scriptorium Christianorum orientalium 526-27, Scriptores Iberici 23-24 (Louvain, 1992-93), ch. 21, 38-39 (translation).
Ishodad of Merv (Syrian Christian bishop of Hedhatha, 9th century): When Noah cursed Canaan, “instantly, by the force of the curse. . .his face and entire body became black [ukmotha]. This is the black color which has persisted in his descendents.” C. Van Den Eynde, Corpus scriptorium Christianorum orientalium 156, Scriptores Syri 75 (Louvain, 1955), p. 139.
Eutychius, Alexandrian Melkite patriarch (d. 940): “Cursed be Ham and may he be a servant to his brothers… He himself and his descendants, who are the Egyptians, the Negroes, the Ethiopians and (it is said) the Barbari.” Patrologiae cursus completes…series Graeca, ed. J.P. Migne (Paris, 1857-66), Pococke’s (1658-59) translation of the Annales, 111.917B (sec. 41-43)
Ibn al-Tayyib (Arabic Christian scholar, Baghdad, d. 1043): “The curse of Noah affected the posterity of Canaan who were killed by Joshua son of Nun. At the moment of the curse, Canaan’s body became black and the blackness spread out among them.” Joannes C.J. Sanders, Commentaire sur la Genèse, Corpus Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalium 274-275, Scriptores Arabici 24-25 (Louvain, 1967), 1:56 (text), 2:52-55 (translation).
Bar Hebraeus (Syrian Christian scholar, 1226-86): “‘And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and showed [it] to his two brothers.’ That is…that Canaan was cursed and not Ham, and with the very curse he became black and the blackness was transmitted to his descendents…. And he said, ‘Cursed be Canaan! A servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.’” Sprengling and Graham, Barhebraeus’ Scholia on the Old Testament, pp. 40–41, to Gen 9:22.
According to Catholic mystic Anne Catherine Emmerich, "I saw the curse pronounced by Noah upon Ham moving toward the latter like a black cloud and obscuring him. His skin lost its whiteness, he grew darker. His sin was the sin of sacrilege, the sin of one who would forcibly enter the Ark of the Covenant. I saw a most corrupt race descend from Ham and sink deeper and deeper in darkness. I see that the black, idolatrous, stupid nations are the descendants of Ham. Their color is due, not to the rays of the sun, but to the dark source whence those degraded races sprang" [5].
Pre-modern European interpretations
In the Middle Ages, European scholars of the Bible picked up on the idea of viewing the "sons of Ham" or Hamites as cursed, possibly "blackened" by their sins. Though early arguments to this effect were sporadic, they became increasingly common during the slave trade of the 18th and 19th Centuries. The justification of slavery itself through the sins of Ham was well suited to the ideological interests of the elite; with the emergence of the slave trade, its racialized version justified the exploitation of a ready supply of African labour. This interpretation of Scripture was never adopted by the African Coptic Churches.
So you see Ahmad, it doesn't matter if you are Muslim or Christian, all of that racial stuff, is made-up White man bullsh1tPosts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah's sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.
The Japhethites
The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.
Most experts identify Magog as being associated with the ancient peoples known as the Scythians – the White raiders from Central Asia.
The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah. The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittim and the Rodanim.
The Hamites
The sons of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan. The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan.
These seem to be East Africans and Arabians
Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD." The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.
Mizraim was the father of the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, Pathrusites, Casluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.
The Philistines were originally part of the original Black Europeans, therefore this group must be the original Europeans.
Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites (Hattie), Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.
Sidon was a Phoenician city, the Hattie were Anatolians and the Amorites were all over the place. therefore these must be the Levantine people plus Anatolians
Later the Canaanite clans scattered and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.
These are the sons of Ham by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.
Semites Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.
The sons of Shem:
Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram.
Elamites were the original Black people of Persia, Asshur is Assyria, Aram was a Amorite/Hebrew kingdom in modern Syria. Therefore this is NOT an ethnic grouping, it is a geographical grouping.
The sons of Aram:
Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshech. Arphaxad was the father of Shelah, and Shelah the father of Eber. Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan. Joktan was the father of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan. The region where they lived stretched from Mesha toward Sephar, in the eastern hill country.
These are the sons of Shem by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations. These are the clans of Noah's sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.
Good luck trying to make sense of this table of nations. It's clear that the authors did not really understand the various peoples and their relationships.
posted
@Mike again ,this is false ,in old Islam there were no racism and I do not know where you get these translations! Al-Tabari or Al-Tayib did not say what you are saying her. so why there is no racism in Islam?! Because it is prohibited
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posted
Is that the same Al-Tabari mentioned here? This could mean the idea that the Zanj revolt was a slave revolt is based on mistranslations! Shaban has a different interpretation because he has the correct translations!
quote:As it happens this is one of the best reported events of the period and by no lesser authority than Tabari himself, who witnessed some of its developments and quotes directly the accounts of some of the participants…
All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources…
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Is that the same Al-Tabari mentioned here? This could mean the idea that the Zanj revolt was a slave revolt is based on mistranslations! Shaban has a different interpretation because he has the correct translations!
quote:As it happens this is one of the best reported events of the period and by no lesser authority than Tabari himself, who witnessed some of its developments and quotes directly the accounts of some of the participants…
All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources…
Some nasty things is going on in this forum,people obviously are mistranslating the Arabic text on propose !
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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Nice find on the pics Mike..btw If you considered Smokey Robinson Black,there is hardly anything that separates Khadaffy from Smokey. The fact that they are light Skinned folks living to the West of Egypt for millinnia does not make them ethnic Turks.
Also good find on the translations Markellion,just goes to show one may have to take 19th cent. scholorship with care when dealing with anything having to do with Black folks,they will link black with slave in a New York minute with absolutly no justification.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Brada-Anansi - You are beginning to sound very naive.
They will link slave to Black for a very good reason. That being to marginalize Blacks so as to instill the perception that Blacks were naturally slaves and that was the limit of their abilities.
And there is NOTHING 19th. century about it. It is very common to find a museum exhibit which characterizes a Black in someplace where they don't want you to know that there were Blacks; as a Slave, even when the characterization was totally ridiculous.
As you should know, Whites have for centuries tried to characterize Greece as the original home of Whites. This being because all White civilization finds its genesis in the Greek civilization.
The Hellenes, the first Whites in Greece (ca. 1,200 B.C.) were like all invading Whites; illiterate nomads, Nothing there to hang your hat on. So they decided to write the original Black builders of Greece, and all of Europe, OUT of history; it is THEIR version of history that you are taught, I hope you understand!
So that when a very old Greek statue of a Black, like the one below, is displayed, he is called a Slave!
Not knowing the level of your naivete; I will explain. A statue like this was VERY expensive to make. If it had a religious significance, a temple might have paid for it. But since it's just a statue of a boy, nobody is going to waste that kind of money making a statue of a slave boy.
The fact is, he is not even a handsome boy - though the artist did capture the classic pose of a petulant child. Therefore, it's save to assume that his father paid for it, get the meaning?
[Greece ca. 700 - 600 B.C.]
As to the Turks, there is nothing benign or innocent about their brand of racism - thought it may be a bit more subtle than the rabid racism of Europeans. Too bad the old posters aren't still around to give you their first-hand experiences in Turkish north Africa and Middle East.
But as example: Perhaps you heard of the uproar in Egypt, when Americans planned to make a movie about Sadat using Louis Gossett jr. as the lead??
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Is that the same Al-Tabari mentioned here? This could mean the idea that the Zanj revolt was a slave revolt is based on mistranslations! Shaban has a different interpretation because he has the correct translations!
quote:As it happens this is one of the best reported events of the period and by no lesser authority than Tabari himself, who witnessed some of its developments and quotes directly the accounts of some of the participants…
All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources…
I must confess that your find impresses me greatly I have also followed your thesis that the so-called racism in the Arab world against the so-called Negro is a figment of people's imagination.
That is a legit point. Push it to the max because you are right.
I have seen some of the articles you culled from Rasta livewire to illustrate your point. Thank you. I promote and cooperate with Rastalivewire by contributing articles sometimes. Maybe you can help us too as we buy your thesis. It is a very different view point than that of most so-called Negros.
You guys keep up the good work. Markellion and mike111...your thesis are not far apart. Original Arabs were blacks. Today most of the people in the gulf of Arabia are black people. The problem lies in inability of most so-called negros to read and write in Arabic. Once they are able to interprete the primary sources for themselves, you immediately begin to see a coalesence of forces of Negro Arabia and Negro Africa.
My little two pence!
Lion
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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Mike naive I am not,I have spend time looking at reports of racism and the like among North Africans and while no one denies it's existance no matter how subtile the facts of meeting some of those very people in the flesh and having indepth conversations with them,will give you the same impression of what happend in our communities before the black power/pride movenment took hold in the western hemisphere. ask your elders about brown bag parties good hair bad hair concepts...in some places in the West it actually caused people who is of the same family to consider themselves separate races, but if you could see that was a phase of internal hate,generated by outside forces within your own community in the not too distant past I don't know why it is so hard for you not to see those very forces at work in areas such as north Africa...after all they were colonized by the West also. Divide and conquer by any means proved to be one of the most effective weapons in Euro's arsenal.Why you don't even have to have different complexion for it to work,the Belgians convinced the Tutsi that they were superior to the Hutus based on some made up bs about Hamitic Dark whites... and everyone on this board knows how that ended.
OH Btw,I said 19th cent.scholors because they were the ones who kicked started scientific racism...the moderns simply let it continue to let it slide...remember when everbody and their mother stated that Nahesi means black and Nubian means the same so,you get a translition that states a 12th dyn.Pheroah placed a warning that No blacks are allowed to enter Egypt unless on trade or diplomatic mission...and everyone bought it hook line and sinker untill someone got a hold of the text and with a strong back ground in Mdu Ntr set the record right.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Of course the Turks were cruel but I don't think they were the ones behind scientific racism (as Brada-Anansi pointed out). I don't think it would have been obvious to them to call their conquered people black unmixed "Caucasians"
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Do you know what the funny thing is? He never did show any "White" Berbers.
Anyone wondering where the concept of Caucasian Blacks come from; it might well be these ass-hole Turks.
posted
Guys, actually I am more interested in providing Sunlight than in accessing blame. When I first came to this board, the concept of "the Universality of Black civilizations" was to many Negros, if not most, an alien concept promoted by a crazy-ass Nigger.
Some even actively tried to kill the threads, feeling that Black civilizations in other places, somehow detracted from Africa - up until then, I didn't really understand just how fuched-up and ignorant some Negros really are. But Luckily at that time, Clyde and some others were here to provide their own input and support.
And it has been successful, at this time, I think that DJ is the only one who would argue the fact that the first European civilizations were created by Black people - and we know DJ is a little off.
So with North Africa, I am merely trying to show the racial reality. The Berbers have been a pet peeve of mine since I saw one of those nature programs. In it, a mixed-race young man was introduced as a Berber, later in the program, they went out into the desert and visited some very Black men in White robes.
They dined with these men and watched as they did a dance, but at no time did they identify these men as Berbers, much less, the real and true Berbers. After that I checked some web sites, and sure enough, there were all of these White and mixed-race people claiming to be Berbers. So that's the point of the thread - Sunlight!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mike,and who produced those programs??..some Euro with time on his hands i bet. Btw I remember some of the arguements you were having was not because there were black folks in other parts of the world building high culture it had to do with your concept of race that you shared with Marc....that phenotype trumps everything and all with a certain look is an African.my own problem with some of your statement has to do with constant dispragance of African Civilizations that had little or no contact with the Mediterranean...as not being worthy of study or attention should be prioritized. from the Med.out wards.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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What I don't understand is That these socalled "Turks" all have African Genetics.
How can these North "Africans" not be African but Turks who "Replaced" the Africans. Just does not make sense.
The FACTS stand on there own. These socalled Turks are really Africans who intermixed with Europeans and Asiatics. They are Linked to the rest of Africa via the PN2 clade.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Brada-Anansi - If it looks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck, IT MUST BE A DUCK!
On a more serious track; all Humans are African. Therefore All Humans MUST have been ORIGINALLY Black.
But somehow two sub-races evolved in Asia; the Caucasian and the Mongol. The Caucasian in his pure state is White, and may have evolved from Albinos. The Mongol runs the gambit from dark brown to White.
Since the basic Human is Black/Brown, then logically the Mongol MUST have originally been a oriental looking Black (like many San - who just happen to inhabit the territory that those expatriate Africans left from thousands of years ago). Who cross-bred with his next door neighbor in Central Asia, the Caucasian. As an example look at the Turks, they exhibit the same range of complexions as the Mongol. If they had slanty eyes, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
The logical extrapolation from all of that, is that ALL Humans are Black, White, or some mixture thereof. But just to avoid argument; I am willing to give you Mongol, as a separate sub-race. Therefore ALL Humans MUST be Black, White, Mongol, or some mixture thereof. What is your problem with that?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: What I don't understand is That these socalled "Turks" all have African Genetics.
How can these North "Africans" not be African but Turks who "Replaced" the Africans. Just does not make sense.
The FACTS stand on there own. These socalled Turks are really Africans who intermixed with Europeans and Asiatics. They are Linked to the rest of Africa via the PN2 clade.
Peace
King - You bring up an interesting point. To me the answer is simply a matter of degree.
I am sure that in Canada, as in the United States, there are a great many White people going around calling themselves Indian. The problem has become so great, that many tribes have set 1/8 as the cut-off point for a person to call themselves Indian.
To me that is way too generous, once you are more than 1/2 of whatever, then that is what you are. So then, to me it is incorrect to call all of them Africans. It all depends on the amount of admixture.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Mike, I know you like to go to the source for whatever you are researching so why not go to Morton and Giddion who started crainelogy and how they missued and falsify their own research.and that they among others laid the foundations of raceology.the study of races that many still cling to today dispite it being concived in sin.As for the people of North Africa Here is what Leo Africanus had to say about the matter and excuse me iI am doing this from memmory.For The Moors are Black or twanny but whatever their differences they are all related as they are of the sons of Ham who is a son of Noah. when I have time I will try and find the exact quotes.
BTW if it looks like a duck walks like a duck it might just be a Platter Puss Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Not a Disciple of anyone, but yes biologically speaking we are not diffrernt races,species or anything of the sort.why? we can reproduce freely with no ill effect in regards to off-spring.socially are there races well yes.and that's why you could have in places like Brazil untill recently... have dozens of races and subraces that would be meaningless to you or me but makes all the diffrernce and sense to a Brazilean at the time.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Not a Disciple of anyone, but yes biologically speaking we are not diffrernt races,species or anything of the sort.why? we can reproduce freely with no ill effect in regards to off-spring.socially are there races well yes.and that's why you could have in places like Brazil untill recently... have dozens of races and subraces that would be meaningless to you or me but makes all the diffrernce and sense to a Brazilean at the time.
Indeed, Brada Anansi.
Physiologically and/or physically, there are no "races". It is a CONcept - a social one, as you stated.
As I mentioned months ago, the race CONcept was contrived by Johann F. Blumenbach in the late 18th century. Any ascription to this concept by so-called "people of color", particularly Black people, automatically subjugates one's self to the social stratification that exist at the present. Hence, "blacks" always being at the bottom.
Brotha Mike, you may disagree, but the facts are there.
Posts: 34 | From: Chuck City | Registered: Apr 2009
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Okay guys, I suppose that I could give you that there is only one race - "the Human race". But then how would you explain the very obvious phenotype and color differences in humans and the associated genetic differences? Oh I know, let's call them sub-human groups.
In which case, I will amend my statement above to read "But somehow two sub-human groups evolved in Asia": instead of "But somehow two sub-races evolved in Asia."
But one thing guys: if the Chimps show up complaining about "aren't we all Great Apes" and then the macaque's show up complaining about "aren't we all Primates". YOU deal with them!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Actually racists have a long tradition of twisting what anti-racists said. Both Charles Darwin and Blumenbach were very Anti-racist. In the very least Blumenbach didn't see humanity as separated into distinct species. Blumenbach also had an entire library of books written by "Negroes" he talks about "Negroes of capacity" in these pages 305-312
Blumenbach wrote "I am acquainted with no single distinctive bodily character which is at once peculiar to the negro"
Even Darwin bellow when he says that race doesn't exist continues to use the word "Negro" even "full-blooded Negro".
Charles Darwin at the very bottom criticizes Blumenbach. but it seems that this is based on Charles Darwin being mistaken about what Blumenbach said. Just as many people today are mistaken about what Charles Darwin wrote. We shouldn't allow these people to be labeled as racists because that only supports racists. Have you noticed its almost like a conspiracy to portray historically Anti-racist people as racist
quote:The American aborigines, Negroes and Europeans are as different from each other in mind as any three races that can be named; yet I was incessantly struck, whilst living with the Feugians on board the "Beagle," with the many little traits of character, shewing how similar their minds were to ours; and so it was with a full-blooded negro with whom I happened once to be intimate. - The Descent of Man; Charles Darwin; 1871
"The anthropological treatises of Johann Friedrich Blumenbach"
quote:I am acquainted with no single distinctive bodily character which is at once peculiar to the negro, and which cannot be found to exist in many other and distant nations; none which is in like way common to the negro, and in which they do not again come into contact with other nations through imperceptible passages, just as every other variety of man runs into the neighbouring populations.
The colour of the skin they share more or less with the inhabitants of Madagascar, New Guinea, and New Holland. And there are imperceptible shades, up from the blackest negroes in North Guinea to the Moors: amongst whom many, especially the women, according to the assurance of Shaw, have the very whitest skin that it is possible to imagine. The curly woolly hair is well known not to be common to all the negroes, for Barbot says, even of those in Nigritia itself, that some have curly and some have straight hair; and Ulloa says just the same of the negroes in Spanish America. Secondly, this socalled woolly hair is very far from being peculiar to the negroes, for it is found in many people of the fifth race, as in the Ygolotes in the Philippines, in the inhabitants of Charlotte Island and Van Diemen's Land, and also in many of the third variety, who, however, are not reckoned as negroes. Many Abyssinians have it, as the famous Abba Grcgorius, Avhose handsome likeness, which Heiss engraved in 1691, after Von Sand, I have before me. Sparrmann also says of the Hottentots, that their hair is more like wool than that of the negroes themselves; and this I find confirmed by the pictures of Hottentots and Kaffirs, which many years ago were forwarded with some transplanted plants from the Cape to Joseph II., and of which I have obtained exact copies, through the kindness of Counsellor von Jacquin. As to the physiognomy of the negro, the difference no doubt is astonishing if you put an ugly negro (and there are ugly negroes as well as ugly Europeans) exactly opposite the Greek ideal. But this is precisely to offend against one of the rules given above. If, on the contrary, one investigates the transitional forms in this case also, the striking contrast between the two very different extremes vanishes away; and, of course, there must be extremes here as well as in the case of other creatures which degenerate into all sorts of races and varieties.
I can, on the contrary, declare that amongst the negroes and negresses whom I have been able to observe attentively, and I have seen no small number of them, as in the portrait-like drawings and profiles of others, and in the seven skulls of adult negroes which are in my collection, and in the others which have come under my notice, or of which I have drawings and engravings before me, it is with difficulty that two can be found who are completely like each other in form; but all are more or less different from one another, and through all sorts of gradations run imperceptibly into the appearance of men of other kinds up to the most pleasing conformation. Of this sort was a female Creole, with whom I conversed in Yverdun, at the house of the Chevalier Treytorrens, who had brought her from St Domingo, and both whose parents were of Congo. Such a countenance—even in the nose and the somewhat thick lips— was so far from being surprising, that if one could have set aside the disagreeable skin, the same features with a white skin must have universally pleased, just as Le Maire says in his travels through Senegal and Gambia, that there are negresses, who, abstraction being made of the colour, are as well formed as our European ladies. So also Adanson, that accurate naturalist, asserts the same of the Senegambia negresses; " they have beautiful eyes, small mouth and lips, and well-proportioned features: some, too, are found of perfect beauty; they are full of vivacity, and have especially an easy, free and agreeable presence."
quote:What then are Darwin's views on race, as put forward in The Descent of Man?
Our naturalist would likewise be much disturbed as soon as he perceived that the distinctive characters of all the races were highly variable. This fact strikes every one on first beholding the negro slaves in Brazil, who have been imported from all parts of Africa. The same remark holds good with the Polynesians, and with many other races. It may be doubted whether any character can be named which is distinctive of a race and is constant. Savages, even within the limits of the same tribe, are not nearly so uniform in character, as has been often asserted. Hottentot women offer certain peculiarities, more strongly marked than those occurring in any other race, but these are known not to be of constant occurrence. In the several American tribes, colour and hairiness differ considerably; as does colour to a certain degree, and the shape of the features greatly, in the Negroes of Africa. The shape of the skull varies much in some races; and so it is with every other character. Now all naturalists have learnt by dearly bought experience, how rash it is to attempt to define species by the aid of inconstant characters.
But the most weighty of all the arguments against treating the races of man as distinct species, is that they graduate into each other, independently in many cases, as far as we can judge, of their having inter-crossed. Man has been studied more carefully than any other animal, and yet there is the greatest possible diversity amongst capable judges whether he should be classed as a single species or race, or as two (Virey), as three (Jacquinot), as four (Kant), five (Blumenbach), six (Buffon), seven (Hunter), eight (Agassiz), eleven (Pickering), fifteen (Bory St. Vincent), sixteen (Desmoulins), twenty-two (Morton), sixty (Crawfurd), or as sixty-three, according to Burke. This diversity of judgment does not prove that the races ought not to be ranked as species, but it shews that they graduate into each other, and that it is hardly possible to discover clear distinctive characters between them. - Charles Darwin; The Descent of Man, 1871
quote:Finally, I am of opinion that after all these numerous instances I have brought together of negroes of capacity, it would not be difficult to mention entire well-known provinces of Europe, from out of which you would not easily expect to obtain off-hand such good authors, poets, philosophers, and correspondents of the Paris Academy; and on the other hand, there is no so-called savage nation known under the sun which has so much distinguished itself by such examples of perfectibility and original capacity for scientific culture, and thereby attached itself so closely to the most civilized nations of the earth, as the Negro.
quote:Person who taught Charles Darwin Taxidermy and fuelled his curiosity on evolution
John was a freed black slave from Guyana, South America, who made his living in Edinburgh teaching University students the art of taxidermy. He lived at 37 Lothian Street in Edinburgh, just a few doors down from where Charles Darwin and his brother, Erasmus, lived. John learned his trade from Charles Waterton, an early 1800's British naturalist.
While Darwin was a student at Edinburgh University he hired John to teach him taxidermy. The two of them often sat together for conversation and John would fill Darwin's head with vivid pictures of the tropical rain forests of South America. These pleasant conversations with John may have later inspired Darwin to dream about exploring the tropics. In any event, the taxidermy skills Darwin learned from him were indispensable during his voyage aboard H.M.S. Beagle in 1831.
But one thing guys: if the Chimps show up complaining about "aren't we all Great Apes" and then the macaque's show up complaining about "aren't we all Primates". YOU deal with them!
posted
Mike that was an unfortunate choice of wording SUB-HUMAN...used by Nazi and white supremicist. and as seen from the above post by Markellion makes no sense. But Lets get back on track.. add this stuff to the scientific racism thread.Now back to Turk/Arab racism. I do think people will always find what ever differences to rag on each other. It could be as humorous as New Yorkers ragging on folks from Jersey or East-coast vs West-coast.or something very serious like you are Tutsi and I am Hutu.But as far as the Turks goe dispite their cruelity as mentioned earlier..always have Blackmen as the second or third most powerfull men in the empire and this was a traditional roll. Now their position did came at a cost in the form of castration...yes they were Eunuchs but before anyone run-off and say yeah why the Blackman has to play the part of a Enunuch the answer is they shared the stage with fellow white Eunuchs.please forgive this long but informative cut n paste:
The Chief Black Eunuch (Kizlar Agha)
The Kizlar Agha was the third highest-ranking officer of the empire, after the Sultan and the Grand Vizier (Chief Minister). He was the commander of the baltaci corps (or halberdiers - part of the imperial army). His position was a pasha (general) of three tails (tails referring to peacock tails, and the most number of tails permitted being four and worn by the Sultan). He could approach the Sultan at any time, and functioned as the private messenger between the Sultan and the Grand Vizier. He was the most important link between the Sultan and the Valide Sultan (mother of the Sultan).
The Kizlar Agha led the new odalisque to the Sultan's bedchamber, and was the only "man" who could enter the harem should there have been any nocturnal emergencies. His duties were to protect the women, to provide and purchase the necessary odalisques for the harem, to oversee the promotion of the women (usually after the death of a higher-ranking kadin) and eunuchs. He acted as a witness for the Sultan's marriage, birth ceremonies, and arranged all the royal ceremonial events, such as circumcision parties, weddings, and fêtes. He also delivered sentence to harem women accused of crimes, taking the guilty women to the executioner to be placed into sacks and drowned in the Bosphorus which lay outside the Topkapi Palace.
The Chief White Eunuch (Kapi Agha)
The Chief White Eunuch was the head of the Inner Service (which is the palace bureaucracy) and the head of the Palace School (school for white eunuchs). He was also Gatekeeper-in-Chief, head of the infirmary, and master of ceremonies of the Seraglio. The Kapi Agha controlled all messages, petitions, and State documents addressed to the Sultan, and was allowed to speak to the Sultan in person. In 1591, Murad III transferred the powers from the white to the black eunuchs as there were too many embezzlements and various other nefarious crimes being attributed to the white eunuchs, among them being purported intimacy with the harem women. The Kapi Agha's loss of powers was seen through the decreasing of his ceremonial duties (which had various stipends entailed) and the decrease in his overall income. Originally, the Kapi Agha was the only eunuch allowed to speak to the Sultan alone, but as his importance decreased, the Valide Sultan and the Kizlar Agha were able to request private audience with the Sultan also. Because of their possible disloyalty, white eunuchs were assigned positions that did not bring them into contact with the harem women as many of them had incomplete castrations (still possessing of their penis). The total number of white eunuchs in the Seraglio at any given time was between 300 and 900.
In the late sixteen hundreds, the power of the black eunuchs grew. During the Kadinlar Sultanati, the eunuchs increased their political leverage by taking advantage of child Sultans or mentally incompetent ones. It was during this period of enthronement of child Sultans that caused political instability. The young teenage Sultans were "guided" by regencies formed by the Valide Sultan, the Grand Vizier and the Valides other supporters. The Kizlar Agha was the Valide Sultan's and the Kadin's intimate and value accomplice.
ps mike and others could please if possible reduce the size of your pics it's becoming hard to read the postings thanx.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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