posted
"In general women have more pheomelanin than men, and thus women's skin is generally redder than men's" source
The above quote is very important because it gives us a much greater understanding into why the AE depicted the females nearly 10 shades lighter than the males. Here is such an example -
Notice the yellow color of the egyptian female skin & the ruddy complexion of the male. Both skin evidence the 'pheomelanin' presence.
-------------------- A recovering Afronut Posts: 604 | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Obviously YOU care, which is why you are promoting your "AE was black" propaganda here.
I do not share your sentiment. AE wasn't black. I would suggest you look into the difference between Eumelanin and Pheomelanin; the two are found in the skin of all humans - some being pheomelanin dominant and some eumelanin dominant.
quote:Originally posted by Shady Aftermath: Who cares. Some were black, some were reddish-brown. But they were all Black.
posted
In south afrika there is a population of whites. Can you explain that to me. They are giving birth to white children in afrika, which makes them afrikaans. How does your theory hold up against that truth?
quote:Originally posted by Shady Aftermath: ^^ The AE were Black like all other Africans. Africans are a Black people.
posted
I am now starting to question your level of knowledge and competence on the issue of this topic, and whether I am wasting my time holding this discussion with you. Humanity sprang out of East africa. I hope you agree on this. And from there humans spread thruout the globe. Some went to S.Africa. So you argument about being "Aliens" is without merit.
quote:Originally posted by Shady Aftermath: ^^ Those are Aliens. South Africans are Black, even the Khoi-Khoi. They're all Black.
Why can't you understand that people sometimes live where THEY DON'T BELONG.
posted
I think the depiction of women in Ancient Egyptian art was simply an artistic convention to contrast the genders. Some have suggested that they chose a lighter shade to portray them as more feminine but the symbolism behind this convention isn't clear.
I highly doubt it has anything to do with what type of melanin the Egyptian population in general had.
Also in later periods the women were depicted as the same shade of skin as the men so clearly that light skin was simply symbolic.
Senegalese scholar, Cheikh Anta Diop, did conduct tests on the skin of Ancient Egyptian mummies and concluded that the Ancient Egyptians had high degrees of eumelanin in their skin indicating that they were dark-skinned:
In practice it is possible to determine directly the skin colour and hence the ethnic affiliations of the ancient Egyptians by microscopic analysis in the laboratory; I doubt if the sagacity of the researchers who have studied the question has overlooked the possibility.
Melanin (eumelanin), the chemical body responsible for skin pigmentation, is, broadly speaking, insoluble and is preserved for millions of years in the skins of fossil animals.20 There is thus all the more reason for it to be readily recoverable in the skins of Egyptian mummies, despite a tenacious legend that the skin of mummies, tainted by the embalming material, is no longer susceptible of any analysis.21 Although the epidermis is the main site of the melanin, the melanocytes penetrating the derm at the boundary between it and the epidermis, even where the latter has mostly been destroyed by the embalming materials, show a melanin level which is non-existent in the white-skinned races. The samples I myself analyzed were taken in the physical anthropology laboratory of the Mus'ee de l'Homme in Paris off the mummies from the Marietta excavations in Egypt.22 The same method is perfectly suitable for use on the royal mummies of Thutmoses III, Seti I and Ramses II in the Cairo Museum, which are in an excel state of preservation. For two years past I have been vainly begging the curator of the Cairo Museum for similar samples to analyze. No more than a few square millimetres of skin would be required to mount a specimen, the preparations being a few um in thickness and lightened with ethyl benzoate. They can be studied by natural light or with ultra-violet lighting which renders the melanin grains fluorescent.
Either way let us simply say that the evaluation of melanin level by microscopic examination is a laboratory method which enables us to classify the ancient Egyptians unquestionably among the black races.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: Morpheus, can you explain the reddish tinge, we see in the ancient artwork, in eumelanin skin?
The Ancient Egyptians used red ochre for their skintone.
I believe their intention was to depict a medium-brown skintone like many Northeast Africans have.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
^They also used black and yellow ochres as well.
I wouldn't describe most of the stuff i've seen in it's original color, untinted or faded, as red, i'd just describe them as brown, infact dark brown.
Infact, human skin is red because of a lack of pheomelanin. Blood gives skin a red tint (as can phaemelanin give hair a red tint [as well as yellow), but actually many people have deeply yellowgold and brown tints because of phoemelanin.
Eumelanin is just black.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: The Ancient Egyptians used red ochre for their skintone.
I believe their intention was to depict a medium-brown skintone like many Northeast Africans have.
how is it their intention to depict brown skintone when theyre using red orchre? does that make sense to you?
Posts: 604 | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: how is it their intention to depict brown skintone when theyre using red orchre? does that make sense to you?
Red and Brown are very similar colors. The Egyptians may have felt that reddish-brown gave their paintings a more lively color than just plain brown. Many African populations with medium-brown skin do have a reddish tint to them due to blood.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
so thats your reasoning for its use heh. Youre gonna have to come up w/ a better one than what is obvious.
quote:Originally posted by Morpheus:
quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: how is it their intention to depict brown skintone when theyre using red orchre? does that make sense to you?
Red and Brown are very similar colors. The Egyptians may have felt that reddish-brown gave their paintings a more lively color than just plain brown. Many African populations with medium-brown skin do have a reddish tint to them due to blood.
quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: What was the dominant skin type in ancient egypt - pheomelanin or eumelanin?
Let's play your little game. Rather than using visual icongraphy and antiquites as a marker, what scientific evidence can YOU present which suggest either pheomelanin or eumelanin? And no cut and paste.
Posts: 191 | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
Actually it seems you're trying to get us to play YOUR game, by imposing YOUR rule and parameter, so that you can create your strawman and beat it down. I don't think so.
I supplied primary source of proof. Now, is my eye LYING to me? am I not seeing what is obviously there?
quote:Originally posted by JMT2: Let's play your little game. Rather than using visual icongraphy and antiquites as a marker, what scientific evidence can YOU present which suggest either pheomelanin or eumelanin? And no cut and paste.
quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: [QB] so thats your reasoning for its use heh. Youre gonna have to come up w/ a better one than what is obvious.
Huh? I can only give you a reasonable answer based on personal observation, not what you want to hear.
We have a multitude of evidence beyond artwork to support the contention that they Ancient Egyptians were Black Africans.
There is no reason to over analyze the reason why they chose red ochre for their skin color.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: What was the dominant skin type in ancient egypt - pheomelanin or eumelanin?
Well, strictly from a biological standpoint since the ancient Egyptian mummies are noted to exhibit extreme tropically adapted body proportions ( I.e, The values for the **brachial and crural indices** show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations).
Therefore one must come to the conclusion that the ancient Egyptians retained a melanin complexion that could be found amongst tropical indigenous Africans, which was/is to protect them from the intense tropical sun of course.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
yet many AE are depictured ruddy and yellow. Oh! I guess that must be some "symbolic" meaning to those colors, until we come across "black" colored AE, which we than say its literal illustration.
YOU GUYS AMAZE ME!
So seti was BLACK SKINNED huh ?
Simply amazing!
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: What was the dominant skin type in ancient egypt - pheomelanin or eumelanin?
Well from a biological standpoint since the ancient Egyptian mummies are noted to exhibit extreme tropically adapted body proportions ( I.e, The values for the **brachial and crural indices** show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations).
Therefore one must come to the conclusion that the ancient Egyptians retained a melanin complexion that could be found amongst tropical indigenous Africans, which is to protect them from the intense tropical sun of course.
quote:Originally posted by kahanyah: yet many AE are depictured ruddy and yellow. Oh! I guess that must be some "symbolic" meaning to those colors, until we come across "black" colored AE, which we than say its literal illustration.
YOU GUYS AMAZE ME!
So seti was BLACK SKINNED huh ?
Simply amazing!
Actually, I don't rely on amateur eyeball anthropological speculation as you do, and so I gave you the view from an actual biological standpoint, not my fault these biological facts disagree with your view.
Note these two videos as per your question in regards to color in Ancient Egyptian art.
posted
Why do so much people think that there eyeball witness trumps FACTS and studies?
We get people who come on these forums and repeat the same tired and pathetic "So and So does not look black" yet we prove over and over again that these mummies have been labeled as tropically adapted and there skulls having resembelence to Nubians. These people really need to get a clue and realize that FACTS will not change because they don't agree with them.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hey kahanyah what do you make of these FACTS? They trump your eyeball witness.
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)
"On the Origin of the Egyptians. Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North." Mary Lefkowitz
"Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Now there is more studies linking Ancient Egypt with the rest of Africa but I will not post them for the fact it may overload the brain of kahanyah.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Hey kahanyah what do you make of these FACTS? They trump your eyeball witness.
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)
"On the Origin of the Egyptians. Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North." Mary Lefkowitz
"Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Now there is more studies linking Ancient Egypt with the rest of Africa but I will not post them for the fact it may overload the brain of kahanyah.
Peace
Quite so. And your quote shows plenty of melanin packed in the royal/noble strata mummies.
The presence of more pheomelanin in women occurs in all populations. The darkest populations also have women who are lighter, even though this may be indistinguishable to the casual eye. This is a universal human condition, as is shown by the Wikipedia quote proferred. "In general women have more pheomelanin than men.."
The obsessive "white Egypt" angle based on paintings is dubious. Egyptian women are painted yellow as a matter of artistic convention, and that is the consensus of mainstream Egyptologists. Women also tend to have lighter skins because they are indoors more. This is also true of ancient Egyptian women, and is so stated by mainstream Egyptologists. See “Women in Ancient Egypt” Egypt Revealed, June, 2001 by Suzanne Onstine, Assistant Professor of Egyptology & Ancient History, University of Memphis). It has nothing to do with the theories of race-obsessed whites seeking to prove a "white Egypt" model, or claim Egypt for Europeans.
Religious symbolism also played a part in some cases. Egyptologist Barbara Lesko in her book "The great goddesses of Egypt," 1999 notes that the yellow skin convention is standard- quote: "..Spell 177 [from the Book of the Dead] begins by invoking Nut. If Nut were the Milky Way, the yellow-white elongated mass of stars would easily lend itself to being interpreted as the naked yellow skin of a woman (women were almost always painted yellow by Egyptian artists, and men reddish brown.)" The red skin of the men in religious terms links with the sun- Re. (Women and Religion in Ancient Egypt. Barbara S. Lesko. Brown University. 2002.)
So we have both practical, artistic and religious conventions operating. Simplistic interpretations by race-obsessed whites founder on the actual facts.
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