posted
The studies submitted their mtDNA genomic data to Genbank, which is publicly accessible. I gave you the Genbank IDs in order for you to verify the mutations listed on the official phylogenetic tree. You don't need anything more than that.
Anyways, the point is.. M originated in Asia, not Africa.
ALL basal M lineages are Asian, NONE are African to date. On top of that, M1 is not even basal and shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 and M51 (both exclusive to Asia). Your Sun et al. reference is outdated.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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Let him sleep on it. He'll give you an answer in the morning.lol
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^The Hartman 2009 reference seems to relate more to the technical efficacy of the Human Mitochondrial Resequencing Array (MITOCHIP) than to any specific details on "M". No doubt Mitochip 2.0 may indeed offer better technical performance than previous versions, as far as the technical mechanics of sequencing goes. As such it can be used to support either an Asian or African hypothesis, as researchers refine their arguments. --- Hartmann A, et al. (2009) Validation of microarray-based resequencing of 93.
Abstract: The human mitochondrial genome consists of a multicopy, circular dsDNA molecule of 16,569 base pairs. It encodes for 13 proteins, two ribosomal genes, and 22 tRNAs that are essential in the generation of cellular ATP by oxidative phosphorylation in eukaryotic cells. Germline mutations in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) are an important cause of maternally inherited diseases, while somatic mtDNA mutations may play important roles in aging and cancer. mtDNA polymorphisms are also widely used in population and forensic genetics. Therefore, methods that allow the rapid, inexpensive and accurate sequencing of mtDNA are of great interest. One such method is the Affymetrix GeneChip® Human Mitochondrial Resequencing Array 2.0 (MitoChip v.2.0) (Santa Clara, CA). A direct comparison of 93 worldwide mitochondrial genomes sequenced by both the MitoChip and dideoxy terminator sequencing revealed an average call rate of 99.48% and an accuracy of ≥99.98% for the MitoChip. The good performance was achieved by using in-house software for the automated analysis of additional probes on the array that cover the most common haplotypes in the hypervariable regions (HVR). Failure to call a base was associated mostly with the presence of either a run of ≥4 C bases or a sequence variant within 12 bases up- or downstream of that base. A major drawback of the MitoChip is its inability to detect insertions/deletions and its low sensitivity and specificity in the detection of heteroplasmy. However, the vast majority of haplogroup defining polymorphism in the mtDNA phylogeny could be called unambiguously and more rapidly than with conventional sequencing.
BUT, In any event, a variant of the original African 'L" makes little difference as far as Egypt is concerned. It is clear that "middle Easterners' did not have the tropical body proportions that characterize Egyptians, as shown by mainstream scholarship.
QUOTE:
"There is long-standing disagreement regarding Upper Pleistocene human evolution in Western Asia, particularly the Levant. Some argue that there were two different populations, perhaps different species, of Upper Pleistocene Levantine hominids. The first, from the Israeli sites of Qafzeh and Skhul, is anatomically modern. The second, from sites such as Amud, Kebara, and Tabun, is archaic, or "Neandertal" in morphology. Others argue that this is a false dichotomy and that all of these hominids belong to a single, highly variable population. In this paper I attempt to resolve this issue by examining postcranial measures reflective of body shape. Results indicate that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have African-like, or tropically adapted, proportions, while those from Amud, Kebara, Tabun, and Shanidar (Iraq) have more European-like, or cold-adapted, proportions. This suggests that there were in fact two distinct Western Asian populations and that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids were likely African in origin - a result consistent with the "Replacement" model of modern human origins.
What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Your second reference is completely irrelevant to this discussion. None of the studies went into great detail on those M20/M51 sequences. They just simply published the sequences in Genbank (anyone can verify this). However, I’m confident that a future study on M1 will mention it, as support for the Asian origin hypothesis. I'm also pretty sure that in the future only more and more basal lineages similar to M1 will be found in Asia, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
All of M = originally Asian
OVER 45 basal M lineages in Asia, NONE in Africa!
African origin hypothesis: 0 Asian origin hypothesis: +1Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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There is nothing to be dealt with anymore. The data speaks for itself, you guys will just start repeating the same old outdated bullshit. Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:The studies submitted their mtDNA genomic data to Genbank, which is publicly accessible. I gave you the Genbank IDs in order for you to verify the mutations listed on the official phylogenetic tree. You don't need anything more than that.
Should have said that in the beginning, instead of falsely giving the impression that you were referencing the actual study opposed to just the tree.
quote:Anyways, the point is.. M originated in Asia, not Africa.
That could be
quote:ALL basal M lineages are Asian, NONE are African to date. On top of that, M1 is not even basal and shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 and M51 (both exclusive to Asia). Your Sun et al. reference is outdated.
How can my Sun et al. reference not be applicable to the current situation? It hasn't been determined if the similarities are due to common ancestry or random parallel mutation as noted by Sun et al. as he stated common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. Which has NOT been determined in this case.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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The shared transition between M20, M51, and M1 is 14110.
This transition is *not* in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) of mitochondrial DNA. Thus indicative of shared ancestry rather than randomness. Sun et al.'s theory is not applicable here as he only mentions HVR transitions.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Your second reference is completely irrelevant to this discussion. None of the studies went into great detail on those M20/M51 sequences. They just simply published the sequences in Genbank (anyone can verify this). However, I’m confident that a future study on M1 will mention it, as support for the Asian origin hypothesis. I'm also pretty sure that in the future only more and more basal lineages similar to M1 will be found in Asia, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
All of M = originally Asian
OVER 45 basal M lineages in Asia, NONE in Africa!
African origin hypothesis: 0 Asian origin hypothesis: +1
That last part you wrote is misleading, there are two hypotheses for the original of mtDNA haplogroup M, one states that both M and N originated in Africa and migrated out very quickly with subsequent extinction of any remaining lineages, or either that M and N arose on an L3 background shortly after the OOA migrations, at least be more damn honest.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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The African origin hypothesis of M is NOT backed up by any significant data whatsoever; it is merely based on flimsy guesswork. The Asian origin hypothesis of M actually IS backed up by large amounts of data.
Unless they find any of those elusive basal M clades in Africa the former theory remains nothing more than an Afrocentric fantasy.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The African origin hypothesis of M is NOT backed up by any significant data whatsoever; it is merely based on flimsy guesswork. The Asian origin hypothesis of M actually IS backed up by large amounts of data.
Unless they find any of those elusive basal M clades in Africa the former theory remains nothing more than an Afrocentric fantasy.
Thats a different tone from what you said earlier and please tell me the basal Asian clade that M1 came from, I'm waiting because to date no such thing has been published, the latest craze is to connect it somehow with the spread of U6, though U6 is low is East Africa and higher in North Africa with the reverse being true for East and Northeast Africa.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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All your above questions have been answered in previous posts. And as for high frequencies, they mean absolutely nothing. I'm not even going to tackle the Asian origin of U and R, which is way too easy to prove.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: All your above questions have been answered in previous posts. And as for high frequencies, they mean absolutely nothing. I'm not even going to tackle the Asian origin of U and R, which is way to easy to prove.
My questions haven't been answered and if M and N securely arose in Asia as you claim please point out the Asian population that has the ancestral L3 lineage that both M and N arose on, to date it hasn't been found in any population in Asia, yet we do know that L3 is African in origin and that both M and N are really both downstream Le lineages.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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All lineages which split off at the root of M are Asian.
Thats picture spamming, not evidence, you haven't conclusively proven that M arose in Asia, nor have you disproven its African origin.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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It actually did. All of the surviving whopping 45+ basal M lineages are Asian (including the monophyletic clade M1 is part of). If you can't grasp this simple concept I think any further discussion is futile.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: It actually did. All of the surviving whopping 45+ basal M lineages are Asian (including the monophyletic clade M1 is part of). If you can't grasp this simple concept I think further discussion is futile.
Post the citation that says that M1 belongs to a monophyletic clade that Asians, post it, I don't want to hear your deductive reasoning, just post the damn citation.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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M20: Found in China M51: Found in Vietnam and Cambodia
And in case your next argument is going to be 'parallel mutations', don't even bother as it has already been proven wrong:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The shared transition between M20, M51, and M1 is 14110.
This transition is *not* in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) of mitochondrial DNA. Thus indicative of shared ancestry rather than randomness. Sun et al.'s theory is not applicable here as he only mentions HVR transitions.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Guess what dumb ass, Malagasy people are heavily Austronesian mixed.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Guess what dumb ass, Malagasy are heavily Austronesian mixed.
(2) M23 lineages have an extremely restricted geographic distribution. A survey of all complete mtDNA sequences reported in the literature (>6,700 sequences; http://www.phylotree.org/ webcite) could not detect M23 sequences anywhere outside Madagascar. Moreover, the screening of control region polymorphisms that are diagnostic for M23 against a larger global panel of mtDNA control region variants confirmed that the M23 control region motif is indeed rare, as only four individuals shared the 13 control region diagnostic mutations for M23 (Additional file 1). Although comparative analysis based only on the first hypervariable sequence (HVS1) reveals a few more individuals that share the four HVS1 mutations of M23 (16223, 16263, 16311 and 16519), these nucleotide positions are known to be fast-mutating and recurrent, and consequently cannot be considered diagnostic of haplogroup M23 (Additional files 1, 2 and 3). Interestingly, three of the four individuals sharing the 13 control region mutations for M23 are African Americans who are likely to trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, although no M23 carriers have been detected on mainland Africa itself (Additional files 2 and 3). The fourth individual is from the Arabian Peninsula (Dubai, United Arab Emirates), a region placed in Southwest Asia which has a long history of interactions with Africa, probably dating back to the dispersal of modern human along the southern dispersal route [3,4,6]. The modern population of Dubai has a genetic composition strongly influenced by female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, as well as migration from South Asian populations [32], which have the highest observed levels of basal M lineages [2,29,31,33]. Although we have only detected four individuals potentially affiliated to M23, they are likely to descend from an African and/or Southwest Asian source, again placing the origin of M23 somewhere between these two regions. Unfortunately, lacking genealogical records for these four individuals, we cannot confirm their maternal African origin, and without additional mtDNA coding region information, the link with African populations remains highly speculative. However, if confirmed, this finding would suggest that the origin and dispersal of M23 lineages is restricted to the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions.
Are African Americans highly Austronesian admixed you stupid jackass? Why hasn't M23 been found abundantly among Austronesian speakers?
Posts: 2597 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Madagascar was uninhabited until recently. The contemporary populations of Madagascar were formed in the last 1,500 to 2,000 years by the admixture of African and Southeast Asian (Austronesian) populations. M23 seems to be restricted to Madagascar as it was not detected anywhere else. M23 could have been brought to Madagascar from Asia where most deep rooted subclades of Haplogroup M are found. M23 is also linked to M75, which has been found in China.[2]Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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It is not known yet with certainty either way that M1 is African or Asian in origin; however, the likely hood that it is African is far greater. There are three hypothesis for the origin of M1:
1. M1 evolved through an independent mutation.
2. M was present in the ancient population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
3. The presence of M1 in Africa is the result of a back-migration from Asia which occurred sometime after the Out of Africa migration.
^ Note 2 out of the 3 hypothesis state African origins. Why is this? Simply because the entire M clade as well as N is derived from L3 which we know for certain is African.
The same can be said for M23. By the way, archaeology as well as folk traditions show that Africans have inhabited Madagascar well before the arrival of Asians.
A New Deep Branch of Eurasian mtDNA Macrohaplogroup M Reveals Additional Complexity Regarding the Settlement of Madagascar
Ricaut et. ales.
The earliest archaeological evidence on the island is controversial. Hippopotamus bones with cut-marks and evidence of human processing from iron tools have been found in the Mikea Forest, in Madagascar's Southwest, dating to ~2 kyr [21]. Later archaeological sites, now containing pottery, have been variously dated from the 4th to the 8th centuries AD. Therefore, the island seems to have been visited at least intermittently by Africans prior to the arrival of Austronesian-speaking maritime travellers from Island Southeast Asia sometime around the 7th or 8th centuries AD [18,19,22-25]. This settlement pattern is further supported by dated faunal extinctions, as well as palaeoenvironmental evidence of deforestation indicated by a decrease in tree pollen and an increase in small charcoal pieces in soil sediments
The ethnographic evidence is equally complex. All Malagasy today speak a Malayo-Polynesian language, also called Malagasy, which is most closely related to a language spoken in the Barito River basin of Southeast Borneo, Indonesia [18,19,22]. Malagasy contains a number of loan words of African Bantu origin, but these have apparently been borrowed from the Swahili/Sabaki group of languages, and thus form part of the cultural exchange that took place during more recent Indian Ocean trade [22,27]. However, oral tribal traditions suggest the earlier presence of a people called Vazimba, who spoke a non-Malagasy language. Pockets of people still known as Vazimba exist among the island's fishermen, and their non-Malagasy lexicon has also been argued to be of Bantu origin [23,26]. Furthermore, two groups of hunter-gatherers still live on the island - the Beosy and the Mikea, who inhabit the forests of Southwestern Madagascar, and who were recognised as having African affinity as early as the 16th century [24,26]....
As noted before, the position of M23 at the root of macrohaplogroup M indicates that M23 is a deep branch of the human mtDNA phylogeny. The length of the M23 branch suggests either strong genetic drift effects or that this cluster may encompass further branches yet to be identified. Indeed, a relatively small proportion of mtDNA variation has been surveyed in the putative areas of origin of M23. Therefore more extensive sampling is needed to refine the overall geographic distribution and branching structure of this clade, However, the fact that this clade has no specific link to other known branches within macrohaplogroup M suggests a deep-rooted ancestry, possibly tracing back to the Out of Africa event. Such a deep root is also shared with many other lineages that emerged independently from the root of macrohaplogroup M. These lineages are especially prevalent in South Asia [2,29-31]. This general pattern has been interpreted as supporting the view of a rapid dispersal of modern humans at the time of the out-of-Africa exodus, followed by a long period of isolation resulting in non-overlapping distributions of derived M haplogroups in relict or isolated populations/regions along the dispersal route. Thus, our results suggest that the Mikea hunter-gatherers and Vezo fishermen of Madagascar descend, if only in very small part (≤4%), from one such deep-rooted, isolated population.
As Charles has cited..
M23 lineages have an extremely restricted geographic distribution. A survey of all complete mtDNA sequences reported in the literature (>6,700 sequences; http://www.phylotree.org/ webcite) could not detect M23 sequences anywhere outside Madagascar. Moreover, the screening of control region polymorphisms that are diagnostic for M23 against a larger global panel of mtDNA control region variants confirmed that the M23 control region motif is indeed rare, as only four individuals shared the 13 control region diagnostic mutations for M23 (Additional file 1). Although comparative analysis based only on the first hypervariable sequence (HVS1) reveals a few more individuals that share the four HVS1 mutations of M23 (16223, 16263, 16311 and 16519), these nucleotide positions are known to be fast-mutating and recurrent, and consequently cannot be considered diagnostic of haplogroup M23 (Additional files 1, 2 and 3). Interestingly, three of the four individuals sharing the 13 control region mutations for M23 are African Americans who are likely to trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, although no M23 carriers have been detected on mainland Africa itself (Additional files 2 and 3). The fourth individual is from the Arabian Peninsula (Dubai, United Arab Emirates), a region placed in Southwest Asia which has a long history of interactions with Africa, probably dating back to the dispersal of modern human along the southern dispersal route [3,4,6]. The modern population of Dubai has a genetic composition strongly influenced by female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, as well as migration from South Asian populations [32], which have the highest observed levels of basal M lineages [2,29,31,33]. Although we have only detected four individuals potentially affiliated to M23, they are likely to descend from an African and/or Southwest Asian source, again placing the origin of M23 somewhere between these two regions. Unfortunately, lacking genealogical records for these four individuals, we cannot confirm their maternal African origin, and without additional mtDNA coding region information, the link with African populations remains highly speculative. However, if confirmed, this finding would suggest that the origin and dispersal of M23 lineages is restricted to the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions.
The presence of the M23 clade among the Malagasy Vezo fishermen and Mikea hunter-gatherers provides additional mtDNA evidence upon which a better picture of the colonization of Madagascar can be built. However, open questions remain, including the geographic origin of M23, and the time and mode of its spread into Madagascar. These outstanding issues can only be partially investigated with the currently available data. The M23 lineage is not present in any of the putative parental populations of the Malagasy (Africans and Island Southeast Asians), suggesting either its absence from these populations, or that it is so exceedingly rare there that it has not yet been detected [17,37-40] (Additional files 1 and 2). Indeed, relative to their genetic diversity, Africans and Southeast Asians have not been widely sampled, although Borneo (the likely source of the Austroensian expansion into Madagascar) has been relatively well surveyed, and a high number of published mtDNA sequences (n = 157) is currently available from this area [38]. Nonetheless, M23 lineages have not been identified in this region. Even if M23 is as rare in Borneo as it is in Madagascar (1.9%), the probability of it being detected there is high: P(M23 | n, freq) = 0.95. However, the extreme population structure of Indonesia [41] may mean that M23 is restricted to populations that have not yet been sufficiently sampled, or at all.
The identification of four individuals of African and Southwest Asian origin who share the 13 diagnostic control region mutations for M23 pinpoints these regions as potential sources for M23. Whilst, the data does not allow us to make clear phylogeographic inferences regarding M23 origin, our results may provide some evidence of ancient contacts across the Indian Ocean involving Africa, Madagascar and South Asia. The deep-rooted topology of M23 and its age estimate coupled with its very restricted distribution within Madagascar, makes unlikely its presence in the island as a result of recent contacts, and is more in agreement with the patterns of human contacts across the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean, which pre-dated the Austronesian expansion into Madagascar [24,27].
Whilst more extensive screening of the putative parental populations in Africa and South Asia will help to ascertain the geographic origin and distribution of M23, our initial examination of Malagasy mtDNA diversity suggests that the origin of M23 lineages may be found in the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions and that their arrival to Madagascar may pre-date the Austronesian settlement of the island. This lends support to oral tribal traditions stressing the earlier presence of non-Malagasy speakers (e.g. Vazimba; [23,24,26]) and re-emphasizes the importance and complexity of the circum-Arabia and Indian Ocean corridor since the late Pleistocene.
As you can see the jury is still out, but in no way has the African origin hypothesis been refuted.
Posts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For those of you who don't know Jaimie is one of our regular trolls here on Egyptsearch. I could tell it's him since he appears to be knowledgeable at first but his anti-African bias and close-mindedness always gets the better of him. Like how he jumps the gun here with claiming that M1, M23 etc. are all Asian period and nothing says otherwise! LOL
Funny how he always complains of "Afrocentrics" yet he is using an African moniker (Perahu) and is on a website about an African culture (Egypt). What's sad though is the fact that this mentally mixed up guy is himself of mixed African descent. With being a white blonde 'octoroon' and all. LOLPosts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: My questions haven't been answered and if M and N securely arose in Asia as you claim please point out the Asian population that has the ancestral L3 lineage that both M and N arose on, to date it hasn't been found in any population in Asia, yet we do know that L3 is African in origin and that both M and N are really both downstream Le lineages.
Correct thanks. We shall now await perahu and his finding of ancestral L3 in Asia. If not (which we know he can't) then the Asian origin is the one that is flimsy.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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^ i dont think he is trolling per se. Not yet at least. If he has new data to prove his argument then by all means.............
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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^ Knowing Jaimie, he always starts out decent but after a while becomes the troll he is when he isn't able to prove his point.
Even if his argument is strengthened that does not mean he won it.
Let's remember that more work has be done, there are still more people to be sampled both in Africa and in Asia to fill in the gaps of geographic distribution as well as phylogentic branching.
Posts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 1. M1 evolved through an independent mutation.
This idea was made popular by Quintana-Murci et al. 1999. You guys sure love to use outdated information. They lacked complete mtDNA scans back in those days and many erroneous phylogenetic trees have been corrected.
Regarding parallel evolution once again, this is what Sun et al. actually said:
quote:A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, that is, 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India.
In other words, only a few mutations in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) are suspected of parallel evolution. Nowhere does he mention that the non-HVR transitions M1 shares with M (10400, 14783, 15043) are due to parallel evolution nor does any other scientist.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
Posts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Okay, so what about hypothesis 2?
M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
It appears that you've just had your ass handed to you and you still come back for a beating. lol....Must be a glutton for punishment.lol
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Until an ancestor to M1, or 'proto M1' is found in Asia, an African origin is in no way out of the question.
Zaharan-M1 has its highest frequencies in Ethiopia. Maybe there is a picture in this thread. Not sure why Perahu dismissed the frequencies of M1 in Africa as if it doesn't matter
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^If you have it, what is the breakdown of mtDNA in Egypt? We know the long centuries of Arabization and other influences have wrought much change, but do you have anything on the distribution of MtDNA in general?
ON his bog, Dinkenes with a seeming regretful tone, laments that Haplogroup "M" does not tie neatly into "racial" groups, including his "Ethiopids..": lmao..
"Haplogroup M is one of those mtDNA lineages which does not correspond well to present-day racial groups, as it spans Mongoloid, Indian Caucasoid and Paleoindian, as well as Ethiopid and various Caucasoid groups in lesser frequency."
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^Actually, I do. Gave a study to astenb quite recently on the mtDNA of Egyptians. I'll look through my Sendspace and make a thread or post it here.
All of this "id" nonsense sounds retarded lol... Just add an 'id' to a population/ethnicity and try to make a race lol... makes no sense. His statement is also contradictory, since M spans so many populations, all with distinct features, how can they be races? Hence the reason why genetics cannot support the idea of biological races in the human species
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': Until an ancestor to M1, or 'proto M1' is found in Asia, an African origin is in no way out of the question.
It has already been discovered in Asia.
quote:Originally posted by L': Zaharan-M1 has its highest frequencies in Ethiopia. Maybe there is a picture in this thread. Not sure why Perahu dismissed the frequencies of M1 in Africa as if it doesn't matter
Haplogroup frequencies have very little to do with the origins of haplogroups. All M carrying Africans are just the dead end of the M family, the end of the line. Every human has a mouth and an asshole. The M carrying Africans are the assholes.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frequencies DO play a role in pin-pointing geographic location.
They do, and indeed no one is saying that frequencies by themselves determine origin. Too often when it comes to African peoples though frequencies are invoked using a double standard as Keita notes below and in his comments on Frigi's recent Berber study. No doubt though, further DNA research will refine the Haplogroup M in question.
Still, Asian origin or no, Haplogroup M was derived from dark-skinned tropical peoples. It appears in only trivial proportions in Europe or the Middle East, but it shows up very clearly in Africa. Europe or the "Middle East' seem to have donated little of M1 to Africa, undermining once again hopes of inflowing "wandering Caucasoids" on this score. Its appearance in Arabia is derived from East Africa.
Emergence of Haplogroup M occurred among dark-skinned tropical peoples – QUOTE:
"Macaulay's research team analyses the Orang Asli, the aboriginal inhabitants of the Malay Penisula, while Thangaraj and colleagues focused on the Andamese islanders, called 'Negritos' (for the characteristic phenotype of dark skin), both groups performing a large number of complete mitochondrial sequences in order to clarify the origin of these populations. They discovered that both Orang Asli and Andaman islanders harboured ancient mtDNA lineages, belonging to the founder haplogroups M, N, and R, with coalescence ages of ~44,000 to ~63,000 years, which were considered the legacy of an early diffusion of modern humans out of Africa. Thus, there was a single rapid out of Africa dispersal (~70,000 years ago) involving a founding group of individuals harbouring the L3 mtDNA haplogroup and starting from the Horn of Africa towards the Persian Gulf and further along the tropical coast of the Indian Ocean to Southeast Asia and Australasia. During this coastal migration, haplogroups M, N and R evolved and the ancestral L3 was lost. Moreover, this scenario is strongly supported by palaeoenvironmental evidence, confirming that a northern migration would have been impossible during the glacial period extending from ~70,000 to 50,000 years ago."
Haplogroup M not found much in Europe or the Middle East, but in Africa, M1 appears - QUOTE.
"The richest basal variation in the founder haplogroups , N and R is found among the southern stretch of Eurasia, particularly in the Indian subcontinent (Figure 1), suggesting a rapid colonization along the southern coast of Asia.. Western Eurasians, in contrast with Southern Asians, eastern Eurasians, and Australasians, have a high level of haplogroup diversity within the haplogroup N and R, but lack haplogroup M also entirely (Figure 1)... Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa." --Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
Misleading "Eurasian" label flagged by some scholars - QUOTE: "The historical linguistic data reported earlier would apply in the case of maternal lineages as well.. it is not likely that the "northern" genetic profile is simply due to "Eurasians" having colonized supra-Saharan regions from external African sources. It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin. As a term "Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it suggests a single locale of geographical origins. This is because it can be postulated that differentiation of the L3* haplogroup began before the emigration out of Africa, and that there would be indigenous supra-Saharan/Saharan or Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More work and careful analysis of mtDNA and the archeological data and likely probabilities is needed. Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion." --Keita, A, Boyce, A. (2005) Genetics, Egypt, and History... History in Africa, 32, 221-246
“..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“ -- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Haplogroup M not found much in Europe or the Middle East, but in Africa, M1 appears - QUOTE.
"The richest basal variation in the founder haplogroups , N and R is found among the southern stretch of Eurasia, particularly in the Indian subcontinent
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
Enrique seems a little confused n this one.
Then he goes asking form M geography but already has his 'centric propaganda graphics nice and finished up
Posts: 42942 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Moles on Wikipedia are busily writing about "caucasian" Ethiopians and are removing more recent scholarship. Administrator collaborator "dab" as usual is on the job to help them. But their cynical "biodiversity" game ultimately fails when the whole picture is put on the table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Ethiopia is patrolled by the moles playing up the "caucasian" line. They rely on Wilson 2001, but Wilson's sampling is skewed s shown below, creating an Ethiopian "match" with 'Nordic' Norwegians, etc
Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Y-chromosomal SNPs are used in phylogenetical studies because in a paternal lineage the Y-SNP “set” is only changed by mutational events. Lower migration rates of males in the past in local scale cause different haplogroup distributions in closed populations. In the actual haplogroup tree (ISOGG 2008) 20 main haplogroups (A-T) are listed.
The Y-chromosomes of 173 unrelated males from Ethiopia (most of them contain to the Amharics) were analysed. For typing, a set of 40 SNPs, which include most of the main haplogroups of the actual phylogenetical tree, were used in combination with the Multiplex PCR Kit (Qiagen) and the SNaPshot™ Multiplex Kit (Applied Biosystems). The ABI PRISM™ 310 Genetic Sequenzer was used for allele calling.
The distribution of the five detected main haplogroups was calculated against the total number of the 173 analysed samples. 40 males (23.1% of analysed samples) belong to the haplogroup A*. 88 samples (50.9%) were related to haplogroup E*, 43 (24.9%) to haplogroup J* and one sample (0.6%) to each haplogroup F* and G*.
Source: Distribution of Y-chromosomal SNP-haplogroups between males from Ethiopia
M. Kohla et al. (2009)
Sorry, forgot about your request on Egyptian mtDNA:
quote:Egypt’s location and amalgam of past ruling populations mixing with the Egyptians has resulted in a heterogeneous make-up. The haplotype breakdown of this dataset is predominantly European (67.5%), followed by African (20.6%) and Asian (11.9%). The breakdown is as follows: European origin (n = 187) including R0 and its subgroups (31.4%), I (3.2%), J (7.6%), K (4.7%), T (9.4%), U (9.0%), W (0.7%), X (1.4%); African origin (n = 57) including L0 (2.2%), L1 (2.5%), L2 (3.6%), L3 (12.3%); and Asian origin (n = 33) including M (6.9%), N (5.1%).
Source: Mitochondrial control region sequences from an Egyptian population sample
Not surprising I suppose that a large percentage of their makeup would be European. The authors also attribute their heterogeneous genetic profile to the invasions of the past (i.e., past ruling populations)
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
^^Not surprising indeed for today's modern Egypt- "ruling populations" at the tail end of the dynastic era and after would include Arabs especially, various other Middle Easterners (like the Ottomans), and Greeks, Romans, Persians etc in varying proportions. Can you recheck file? It says "Not a valid PDF". Also what is there sampling like? For some reason, in several studies sampling is drawn mostly from northern Egypt near the Mediterranean as "representative" of all of Egypt. And is the "M" detected M1 or more an India/Pakistan/East Asia-type breakdown?
Except for the migration of "M" groups, such as Pakistani oil workers in the modern era, or travellers mercenaries, traders etc in an earlier time, a number of studies show very little native "M" in Europe or the Middle East. I wonder about the "M" detected
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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They sampled 277 unrelated individuals from Alexandria, Egypt.
Nice roundup on M and M1.
Some more data:
quote:Results and Discussion African Ancestry of Australian and NG Y and mtDNA Types.
We carried out a phylogenetic analysis of our Australian and NG complete mtDNA sequences and compared the resulting branches with the Asian mtDNA tree, as known so far (Fig. 2). The result confirms that both Australian and NG maternal lineages consist exclusively of the known out-of-Africa founder types M and N, dated to ≈50–70,000 years ago, and their derivatives (24–27, 29, 30, 33–37). This mitochondrial finding is mirrored in our Y chromosome data (Fig. 3), where we observe the paternal lineages in Australians and New Guineans to fall into either branches C or F, proposed to be the earliest out-of-Africa founder types (31). These results indicate that Australians and New Guineans are ultimately descended from the same African emigrant group 50–70,000 years ago, as all other Eurasians. In other words, these data provide further evidence that local H. erectus or archaic Homo sapiens populations did not contribute to the modern aboriginal Australian gene pool, nor did Australians and New Guineans derive from a hypothetical second migration out of Africa (38), nor is there any suggestion of a specific relationship with India (9, 21, 22).
quote: " Results and Discussion African Ancestry of Australian and NG Y and mtDNA Types.
We carried out a phylogenetic analysis of our Australian and NG complete mtDNA sequences and compared the resulting branches with the Asian mtDNA tree, as known so far (Fig. 2). The result confirms that both Australian and NG maternal lineages consist exclusively of the known out-of-Africa founder types M and N, dated to ≈50–70,000 years ago, and their derivatives (24–27, 29, 30, 33–37). This mitochondrial finding is mirrored in our Y chromosome data (Fig. 3), where we observe the paternal lineages in Australians and New Guineans to fall into either branches C or F, proposed to be the earliest out-of-Africa founder types (31). These results indicate that Australians and New Guineans are ultimately descended from the same African emigrant group 50–70,000 years ago, as all other Eurasians. In other words, these data provide further evidence that local H. erectus or archaic Homo sapiens populations did not contribute to the modern aboriginal Australian gene pool, nor did Australians and New Guineans derive from a hypothetical second migration out of Africa (38), nor is there any suggestion of a specific relationship with India (9, 21, 22)."
--Toomas Kivisild et al. 2007
^Great reference- confirming Spinozzi above. So these tropical peoples then from Africa migrated and developed Haplogroup M, moving along the tropical coast of southern India on into SE Asia and Australia. I can see now why Keita disputes such labels as "Eurasian." These Out of Africa migrants were roaming expansively over a wide area, defying easy 'racial' or ethnic checkboxes such as 'Eurasian'. And where would the 'European" in 'Eurasian" come into play since Haplogroup "M" has very little appearance in Europe? We do know however that physically, they were tropically adapted, tropical Africans, who developed another genetic variant as tropical peoples, who in turn may have "back-tracked" or returned into Africa to join up again with still other sub-Saharan tropical types on the continent, that they earlier had left behind.
So we have:
"Beginning"- dark-skinned tropical variant & L3
"Middle" - dark-skinned tropical variant & "M"
"Return/end" - dark-skinned tropical variant & M1
mutated into other trop
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:''The presence of haplogroup M1 in Northern Egypt has been associated with a back migration from Asia entering not from the southern route of the ‘Out of Africa’ proposal but from the Mediterranean Sea or the Levantine corridor [43–46]. Since Alexandria is located on the Mediterranean coast, it is not surprising this study observed a high frequency (6.5%, representing 18 individuals) of the Asian origin mtDNA haplogroup M1.''
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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We are all aware that M1 has been 'associated with back-migration. Gonzelez et al. 2007 tried to make this correlation with U6, a failed attempt I may add.
These forensic science articles are good for their raw data, nothing else. In one paper they said hg is E is west African in origin
Still waiting for you to post the article that states an ancestor to M1 has been found in Asia...
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
^^I have no problem per se with the development of a genetic variant outside Africa, but I wonder at what point the L3 OOA migrants cease being 'African' and become 'Asian.' If 'Asian' applies because they are not physically in Africa, fine. But why is there a different rule if M1 developed in Africa? Why do some keep calling it 'Asian' or even Eurasian, when native Hap M is rare in Europe? Or if the oldest M1 is in Africa, why keep calling it 'Asian'? Why the double standard anytime Africa is involved?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: It appears that you've just had your ass handed to you and you still come back for a beating. lol....Must be a glutton for punishment.lol
Don't confuse me for YOURSELF, microcephalic! LOL Jaimie is far more competent a debater than you can ever dream of but in the end, even he loses to us as well.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Dje you or Explorer or truthcen had a map floating around a while back. What is the geographical distribution of M1 in Africa?
I think it was Explorer who posted that. I've been looking for that distribution map myself.
Posts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Look in the comments. He does the same thing, i.e., mentioning M51 etc.,
I'm fairly certain they are the same person. Either way, they were humiliated... BAD!
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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At least he can put up a half-decent fight unlike the retards running around this forum like a Simpleton and Lyinass. Posts: 26321 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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