posted
The king of Zafun was on pilgrimage at that time probably openly Muslim but he was also given respect by the Commander of the Muslims. Its possible Zafun were later ruled by a pagan king again
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The incident with the king of Zafun traveling to Marrakesh (which is obviously something I am obsessed with) is said to have happened in the 2nd quarter of the 12th century and they probably converted by then. However this is interesting because it looks like these kingdoms later became ruled by "pagan" kings again:
Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World by Pekka Masonen
quote:In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:
"We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you." Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.
posted
why no one mentioned the horrifying slave trade involving muslims where it is said that well over 100 million africans perished? the men taking to the "middle east" were castrated and the women taken as slaves and concubines? where the pregnant womens babies heads were bashed as soon as the mother birth them?
arab/muslim slavery made it easy for european slavery and was actually worse because africans enslaved by europeans grew in numbers in the islands and the "new" world but there are hardly any slave descendants to be found in the "middle east" they were mostly killed off like the american natives (indians).
-------------------- Occupation: TRUTH!! Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Serpent Wizdom: why no one mentioned the horrifying slave trade involving muslims where it is said that well over 100 million africans perished? the men taking to the "middle east" were castrated and the women taken as slaves and concubines? where the pregnant womens babies heads were bashed as soon as the mother birth them?
arab/muslim slavery made it easy for european slavery and was actually worse because africans enslaved by europeans grew in numbers in the islands and the "new" world but there are hardly any slave descendants to be found in the "middle east" they were mostly killed off like the american natives (indians).
I didn't think I had to mention the Tran-Saharan Slave trade. I really don't understand why my AA brothers don't get the devastation Islam caused and how badly they treated our people and worse, the brainwashing of our own Black brothers into enslaving their own kind because of a fake identity in Islam.
I keep hearing how great Islam is. Black Muslim are just being racist. They think Jesus was White and they want a Black religion of their own. An African religion. Well let me tell you that Christianity is far more AFRICAN than Islam. And African Christianity didn't result in an inhuman slave trade to barbaric Arabs who treated our people like trash. And I suppose if you not from a North Black African background you wouldn't understand. Slavery is still practice in North Africa to this day. I probably have cousins that are slaves to ARABS. So don't tell me crap about how wonderful Arabs are to us Black Africans and how Islam is so good for us.
Rubbish.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
You speak nothing but the TRUTH. Islam seems to want people to give up there identity and claim a Arab one. Racism is rife in Islam I also don't like how they continue to promote child marriages which rob girls of their childhood.
Muslims are good decent people but their faith is just a corrupting tool used by there elite to enslave and rape them. As we can see in Afghanistan, the taliban are using the youth to commit suicide I hear that most of the bombers were between 12-18. Now in Pakistan there is news that taliban is taking advantage of the job loss in Faisalabad to recruit the youth to there agenda.
People have got to realize that the youth are the future and God does not want them to lose there lives like this. Children are supposed to be protected, yet we see them being abused in Islamic countries higher then other countries.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No one is excusing any Arab exploitation of Africans you just want to portray a one sided story with your Christian fundamentalist mind set..if you you can separate Euros-from Christianity the why the hell is it sooo hard for you to do the same when it comes to Islam..Islam is no worst than Christians they both use forced means depending the era,Slaves were sprinkled with water and thats how they became Christians..Convert or die was the choice given for some in Islam..the good ship Jesus was a friggin slave ship. wash me whiter than snow was a Christian song that took on a whole new meaning when taught to enslaved blacks..Islam and Christianity are both destructive and constructive depending on the era and who is in control Sheech!!
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
King do the people in Senegal want an Arab identity they had a Christian President in a Nation of 90 something % Muslems their women are free from the so-called harshness one finds in the so-called Arab world,it is fundamentalism that is the root cause of all this mess and that goes for Christians too.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Serpent Wizdom: why no one mentioned the horrifying slave trade involving muslims where it is said that well over 100 million africans perished? the men taking to the "middle east" were castrated and the women taken as slaves and concubines? where the pregnant womens babies heads were bashed as soon as the mother birth them?
arab/muslim slavery made it easy for european slavery and was actually worse because africans enslaved by europeans grew in numbers in the islands and the "new" world but there are hardly any slave descendants to be found in the "middle east" they were mostly killed off like the american natives (indians).
I didn't think I had to mention the Tran-Saharan Slave trade. I really don't understand why my AA brothers don't get the devastation Islam caused and how badly they treated our people and worse, the brainwashing of our own Black brothers into enslaving their own kind because of a fake identity in Islam.
I keep hearing how great Islam is. Black Muslim are just being racist. They think Jesus was White and they want a Black religion of their own. An African religion. Well let me tell you that Christianity is far more AFRICAN than Islam. And African Christianity didn't result in an inhuman slave trade to barbaric Arabs who treated our people like trash. And I suppose if you not from a North Black African background you wouldn't understand. Slavery is still practice in North Africa to this day. I probably have cousins that are slaves to ARABS. So don't tell me crap about how wonderful Arabs are to us Black Africans and how Islam is so good for us.
Rubbish.
Brother, even though you and I have differnt veiws on things I respect your opinion. Islam was never meant for Africans, Muhammed used Africans the same way he used the Jews in Arabia, Medina, and Mecca. Islam is nothing but an Arab supremist cult, that has bled Africa of he children is slavery and countless lives lost in a trade of inhumane crielty. Yet you can barley muster more than 50 African Americans to adress this fact. They think Islam represents Africa becuase of Bilal that was ridiculed by Muhammed's Arab followers or becuase Muhammed used the Ethiopians by hiding at Axum only later the same people they protected Isolated them, took over their trade routes, and took their Empire into decline all while smiling in their faces..."Peace Be upon you my Brother"...
The same Muslims that sold our people to Europeans..Where was "Allah" when our people were pissing and vomiting over each other...Where was Allah when our people were being sprayed dowm woth water hoses and when our womens baby's were ripped out of their hands...Where was Allah.
The thing is people use religion to divide and conquer our people. The Europeans did it and the Arabs did it before them. Now our people stuck pointing the finger at the white man, while our brothers and sisters remain slaves to the Black mans Islamic religion...Where is Allah.
Christianity in the Nile Valley is way more African than Islam will ever be. The Erhiopian Orthodox are way more African and WAY MORE OF MY brother than some Forked tounge Arab smiling in my face..."Peace be upon you my brother" Not knowing their own Hadiths call my people all sort of names, not knowing their own scripts say that its ok to Beat women.
Hell Muhammed was not even a prophet, Prophethood was only bestowed upon Jacob so We can dismiss Islam with a few verses. The Most High NEVER once used an Ishmaelite as a messenger. Yasuhuah is the Last Prophet..He says those that deny him he will deny Them in the presence of his father and the holy Angels.
The way I see it Down with Islam and Down with the Pagan Babylonian Christianity that is perpetuated by the Roman Catholic church, and down with any religion enslaving our people!!
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Senegal seems to be an exception. It's good to see Senegal doing well and the respect of other faiths in their country.
To see that they had a Christian president shows that they are a peaceful people and are not trying to force anything on anyone. They should be the example that other muslim countries should follow.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Senegal seems to be an exception. It's good to see Senegal doing well and the respect of other faiths in their country.
King there are others and even some of those that are now engulfed in fundamentalism it was not always so..often a peoples region or culture often reflects how Islam is practiced. Go back and study the roll of women of say medieval Mali as described by Ibn Battuta in Mali to see what I mean, Fatimid Egypt had a Jew named Killis a eunoch as who preceeded by the renowned Kafur the magnificent as ruler who was a Sudenese eunoch.
The most notable case was the vizir Ya'qub ibn Killis. He was virtually the sole person responsible for state affairs, and his authority extended over the whole Fatimid territories. His house (later known as dar al dabij) was a huge complex from which he ran state business. The petitioners, for example, submitted their cases to the vizier in his] house. Ibn Killis's house became an official residence -- a seat; of the government. Ibn Killis's wealth was fabulous, and his extravagant life-style did not fall behind that of al-'Aziz. Like the Fatimid imam, Ibn Killis was a sponser of cultural activity and was a patron of learned men. Ibn Killis, like al-Ma'mun al-Bata'ihi later, was a recipient of extensive iqta'a-t which yielded large incomes. These grants of iqta' were in additition to other incomes that both Ibn Killis and al-Ma'mun received from the imam for their services. In accordance with a practice widespread in the ruling circles, Ibn Killis, as a private person, was engaged in trade.
The above would un-thinkable today given the current athmosphere.
Jeri it's not about the religions themselves but how it is used and for what purposes..example without the liberation theology of the Black churches in AA communities life would be unthinkable,going all the way back to Nat Turner, Denmark Vassey and John Brown to fight against oppression John Brown is interasting for his financial supporter Voodoo Queen Marie Laveau,a Christian and a non person of the book fighting for a common cause.
Islam has it's own liberation theology in the Nation of Islam and Malcom X going all the way back to SAMORY TOURE "BLACK NAPOLEON OF THE SUDAN" (1830-1900). Samory Toure, who was a conqueror from West Africa, fought the French from taking possession of his Country.
The truth is it depends on who is using religion and for what purpose.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
You speak nothing but the TRUTH. Islam seems to want people to give up there identity and claim a Arab one. Racism is rife in Islam I also don't like how they continue to promote child marriages which rob girls of their childhood.
Muslims are good decent people but their faith is just a corrupting tool used by there elite to enslave and rape them. As we can see in Afghanistan, the taliban are using the youth to commit suicide I hear that most of the bombers were between 12-18. Now in Pakistan there is news that taliban is taking advantage of the job loss in Faisalabad to recruit the youth to there agenda.
People have got to realize that the youth are the future and God does not want them to lose there lives like this. Children are supposed to be protected, yet we see them being abused in Islamic countries higher then other countries.
Peace
Christians don't? I'd suggest stepping out of the West and look at the Christian communities presently residing much of Africa or the "Middle East". They're just as brutal, fanatical, or "forceful". Do remember that these techniques are not necessarily sponsored by Islam either.
That doesn't conditioning under the family structure is absent. However that's the case in all human cultures. Also, I'd consider that you look at the solely Christian populations in the Western world.
New York City or Toronto isn't the West. For most parts, its all-white and Christian, and the latter applies for many parts of those cities. I ask, how did that happen? I'd imagine that you'd argue that it was voluntary, despite the fact that African slaves were forced into that religion.
PS: I'd also consider the socio-political health of Islamic states. The West used to not be that different, especially, when it was closed off to much of the world.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
I just finished a documentary on women in Ethiopia and I found out in this Nation girls as young as 9 were married off to men and they developed complications. So it opened my eyes to see that there is negative people the world over.
I really have a hard time thinking the coptic Egyptians are as violent as the muslims in Egypt. Also there is Christians in Pakistan who were underattack by muslims.
As for how europeans taught the Bible to African slaves was not done in a good way, but it does not take away from the truth of the Bible.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
You speak nothing but the TRUTH. Islam seems to want people to give up there identity and claim a Arab one. Racism is rife in Islam I also don't like how they continue to promote child marriages which rob girls of their childhood.
Muslims are good decent people but their faith is just a corrupting tool used by there elite to enslave and rape them. As we can see in Afghanistan, the taliban are using the youth to commit suicide I hear that most of the bombers were between 12-18. Now in Pakistan there is news that taliban is taking advantage of the job loss in Faisalabad to recruit the youth to there agenda.
People have got to realize that the youth are the future and God does not want them to lose there lives like this. Children are supposed to be protected, yet we see them being abused in Islamic countries higher then other countries.
Peace
Christians don't? I'd suggest stepping out of the West and look at the Christian communities presently residing much of Africa or the "Middle East". They're just as brutal, fanatical, or "forceful". Do remember that these techniques are not necessarily sponsored by Islam either.
That doesn't conditioning under the family structure is absent. However that's the case in all human cultures. Also, I'd consider that you look at the solely Christian populations in the Western world.
New York City or Toronto isn't the West. For most parts, its all-white and Christian, and the latter applies for many parts of those cities. I ask, how did that happen? I'd imagine that you'd argue that it was voluntary, despite the fact that African slaves were forced into that religion.
PS: I'd also consider the socio-political health of Islamic states. The West used to not be that different, especially, when it was closed off to much of the world.
Islam is of Arab origin. Christianity is NOT of European origin. Christianity you speak of was anything but. Rather it was a mix of Celtic pagan traditions mixed with some concepts of Christianity.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
TO all.. Christianity began as a reformist Jewish sect Judaism it-self sprang forth from Kemitic and Sumerian origins and took hold in the Levant..Islam is descended from both Judaism and Christianity south of the Levant and directly across from East Africa. We have been through this meny a times before ladies and gentlemen...
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
You speak nothing but the TRUTH. Islam seems to want people to give up there identity and claim a Arab one. Racism is rife in Islam I also don't like how they continue to promote child marriages which rob girls of their childhood.
Muslims are good decent people but their faith is just a corrupting tool used by there elite to enslave and rape them. As we can see in Afghanistan, the taliban are using the youth to commit suicide I hear that most of the bombers were between 12-18. Now in Pakistan there is news that taliban is taking advantage of the job loss in Faisalabad to recruit the youth to there agenda.
People have got to realize that the youth are the future and God does not want them to lose there lives like this. Children are supposed to be protected, yet we see them being abused in Islamic countries higher then other countries.
Peace
Christians don't? I'd suggest stepping out of the West and look at the Christian communities presently residing much of Africa or the "Middle East". They're just as brutal, fanatical, or "forceful". Do remember that these techniques are not necessarily sponsored by Islam either.
That doesn't conditioning under the family structure is absent. However that's the case in all human cultures. Also, I'd consider that you look at the solely Christian populations in the Western world.
New York City or Toronto isn't the West. For most parts, its all-white and Christian, and the latter applies for many parts of those cities. I ask, how did that happen? I'd imagine that you'd argue that it was voluntary, despite the fact that African slaves were forced into that religion.
PS: I'd also consider the socio-political health of Islamic states. The West used to not be that different, especially, when it was closed off to much of the world.
Islam is of Arab origin. Christianity is NOT of European origin. Christianity you speak of was anything but. Rather it was a mix of Celtic pagan traditions mixed with some concepts of Christianity.
Nice try. Arabs are highly tied to African people. Just because the typical Lebanese you see on the street look pale (false) doesn't meant that there is no relationship. It is actually quite established, especially considering that the Red Sea isn't the Atlantic Ocean.
Just please, stop it. I don't think Christianity or Judaism, for that matters, doesn't have ties with that damn region. After all, many of us also belong to tradition of conversion. Well, that is, people whose grand mother's great grand parents were literate, it'd be more understood. Well I am not excluding slave ancestry, because that's the possibility amongst all peoples (i.e. stories of illegitimate distant relatives, or step-brothers) are not rare in "our" community either.
These discussions are problematic, because there is so much political baggage around this discussion. I don't sponsor Doug_M's position that Islam is all doom in Africa. One may as well consider the people who claimed to have followed the religion just as Africans, who lived within the continent, plundered those within as well.
I REALLY think that we need to stop viewing the Arabian peninsula as a foreign land. Unlike Europeans, who were isolated due to the dark ages, Africans were not isolate from West Asian populations. In addition, pale skin has a northern European origin, and those African-West Asian Natufians nicely clustered with the generalized "sub-Saharan" African mean.
Those "Asiatic" (i.e. "Indian-like") traits possibly developed more recently, but I do see a rather intermediate position of the Arabian peninsula. In other words, Somalis, for instance, have a lot more to do with "True Arabs" than the Berber counterpart. If Fawal looks "white", he won't fit in at all.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Origins of Clericalism in West African Islam by Lamin Sanneh
Abstract:
quote:This article describes the independent contribution of pacific clerics to Islamic diffusion in West Africa. The particular role of Serakhulle (or Soninke) clerics, better known as Jakhanke, is examined in detail. The Jakhanke became a distinct clerical caste among the Serakhulle, initially through the work of al-Hajj Salim Suware who led them first at Diakha-Masina and eventually at Diakha-Bambukhu, where they lost a good deal of their Serakhulle cultural traits. Henceforth they acquired a self-consciously Islamic image alongside an increasing identification with the Manding culture. Al-Hajj Salim (floruit twelfth-thirteenth century) founded the clerical vocation on a principled disavowal of jihad and withdrawal from political/secular centres. He also established travel as essential to the clerical life. Since his time the Jakhanke have been characterized by dispersion, although the dispersion trail has also connected numerous centres into an effective network of clerical expansion. The career of 'Abd al-Rahman Jakhite, a member of the Jakhanke community, illustrates the range of clerical outreach. He and his community eventually settled in Kano in the reign of Muhammad Rimfa (1463-99) and helped consolidate Islam in Hausaland. On this kind of evidence, it is suggested that the pattern of Islamic clerical diffusion can be discerned at an early stage, although historical sources have tended to fuse the themes of Islamic expansion, commerical activity and a resident foreign Muslim community. However, the Jakhanke clerical tradition is sufficiently secure for it to be studied independently, without assuming a corresponding degree of commercial or foreign Muslim influence. In conclusion, the implications of these findings for research into Islamic diffusion in West Africa are outlined.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: No one is excusing any Arab exploitation of Africans you just want to portray a one sided story with your Christian fundamentalist mind set..if you you can separate Euros-from Christianity the why the hell is it sooo hard for you to do the same when it comes to Islam..Islam is no worst than Christians they both use forced means depending the era,Slaves were sprinkled with water and thats how they became Christians..Convert or die was the choice given for some in Islam..the good ship Jesus was a friggin slave ship. wash me whiter than snow was a Christian song that took on a whole new meaning when taught to enslaved blacks..Islam and Christianity are both destructive and constructive depending on the era and who is in control Sheech!!
Very good points Brada.
Posts: 191 | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Posts: 26397 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
I just finished a documentary on women in Ethiopia and I found out in this Nation girls as young as 9 were married off to men and they developed complications. So it opened my eyes to see that there is negative people the world over.
I really have a hard time thinking the coptic Egyptians are as violent as the muslims in Egypt. Also there is Christians in Pakistan who were underattack by muslims.
As for how europeans taught the Bible to African slaves was not done in a good way, but it does not take away from the truth of the Bible.
Peace
look up "gods army" in uganda. To think that christians are magically peaceful shows your lack of knowledge concerning history. Try researching the cathars and how the catholic church slaughtered these people. Also look up the early history of Gnostics in Egypt during the early years of the christian church, the christians murdered them too. Look up the Serapium Temple and see what the church did to these folks. Look up "gods army" in America, they have also blown up stuff. what about your christian knights "KKK".
Its easy for people to have preconceived notions based on fantasy, and much harder for people to actually do research. I am a Muslim but I do not deny there are ignorant people among the Muslims. However I also know history very well and know Christians are not free and clear from blood shed. Neither are Jews, Hindus, Buddhist and any other group. People are people at the end of the day.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
You speak nothing but the TRUTH. Islam seems to want people to give up there identity and claim a Arab one. Racism is rife in Islam I also don't like how they continue to promote child marriages which rob girls of their childhood.
Muslims are good decent people but their faith is just a corrupting tool used by there elite to enslave and rape them. As we can see in Afghanistan, the taliban are using the youth to commit suicide I hear that most of the bombers were between 12-18. Now in Pakistan there is news that taliban is taking advantage of the job loss in Faisalabad to recruit the youth to there agenda.
People have got to realize that the youth are the future and God does not want them to lose there lives like this. Children are supposed to be protected, yet we see them being abused in Islamic countries higher then other countries.
Peace
Christians don't? I'd suggest stepping out of the West and look at the Christian communities presently residing much of Africa or the "Middle East". They're just as brutal, fanatical, or "forceful". Do remember that these techniques are not necessarily sponsored by Islam either.
That doesn't conditioning under the family structure is absent. However that's the case in all human cultures. Also, I'd consider that you look at the solely Christian populations in the Western world.
New York City or Toronto isn't the West. For most parts, its all-white and Christian, and the latter applies for many parts of those cities. I ask, how did that happen? I'd imagine that you'd argue that it was voluntary, despite the fact that African slaves were forced into that religion.
PS: I'd also consider the socio-political health of Islamic states. The West used to not be that different, especially, when it was closed off to much of the world.
Islam is of Arab origin. Christianity is NOT of European origin. Christianity you speak of was anything but. Rather it was a mix of Celtic pagan traditions mixed with some concepts of Christianity.
Nice try. Arabs are highly tied to African people. Just because the typical Lebanese you see on the street look pale (false) doesn't meant that there is no relationship. It is actually quite established, especially considering that the Red Sea isn't the Atlantic Ocean.
Just please, stop it. I don't think Christianity or Judaism, for that matters, doesn't have ties with that damn region. After all, many of us also belong to tradition of conversion. Well, that is, people whose grand mother's great grand parents were literate, it'd be more understood. Well I am not excluding slave ancestry, because that's the possibility amongst all peoples (i.e. stories of illegitimate distant relatives, or step-brothers) are not rare in "our" community either.
These discussions are problematic, because there is so much political baggage around this discussion. I don't sponsor Doug_M's position that Islam is all doom in Africa. One may as well consider the people who claimed to have followed the religion just as Africans, who lived within the continent, plundered those within as well.
I REALLY think that we need to stop viewing the Arabian peninsula as a foreign land. Unlike Europeans, who were isolated due to the dark ages, Africans were not isolate from West Asian populations. In addition, pale skin has a northern European origin, and those African-West Asian Natufians nicely clustered with the generalized "sub-Saharan" African mean.
Those "Asiatic" (i.e. "Indian-like") traits possibly developed more recently, but I do see a rather intermediate position of the Arabian peninsula. In other words, Somalis, for instance, have a lot more to do with "True Arabs" than the Berber counterpart. If Fawal looks "white", he won't fit in at all.
There are many different routes Christianity took in terms of introduction in Africa. The most pure and effective route was that of the Nubian Christians who converted from direct contact with the apostles.
Now if you can look at Christian Nubia and find an issue with how it was practiced and that it exploited Black people, then please let me know. Europeans brought a pure and a corrupt form of Christianity to Africa both for honest reasons and dishonest. It was the dishonesty that dominated in the spread of Christianity by the Europeans in Africa.
I think the point that is being missed is the affect of religion on the identity of the people. Islamic Africans are far more likely to consider themselves of Arabic origin than non-Islamic Aficans. This causes a huge division and goes back to my point about homogenous societies having an advantage over heterogenous ones. Europeans, like Japanese people, are homogenous and show preference to each other over outside ethnics groups for natural genetic reasons. In Africa we see Islamic Africans showing preference to Arabs over their own people and to the point that they don't even recognize themselves as African. The lack of a racism gene means (due to natural genetic diversity and depth) that Black Africans are easier to divide and put into contention rather than help each other to thrive. Even African Americans to this day have a hard time showing preference to their own over other ethnic groups. Makes it hard to compete against ethnics groups such as the Japanese and German people who naturally help each other.
Christian Nubia was destroyed by Islam. My point is that if it was not destroyed then an indigenous form of Christianity would have spread through Aksum to the rest of Africa. This would have created an African Christian identity and may have actually thwarted European colonization and enslavement of Africans. African people would have experienced the renaissance before Europe and we would be the ones sending out missionaries and colonizing the world in the same manner in the past with Africans had religious unity under an African form of Christianity known as the cult of Osiris.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Christian Egypt fell due to Islam.
Christian Nubia fell due to Saladin.
Christian Aksum fell due to the Islamic renaisance that cut off this civilization from the major trade routes.
I am not sure why there is a failure to understand the different forms of Christianity that took root in Africa.
Certainly I am not referring to the Christianity brought by the colonials powers.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions. 1. Present day Judaism is not the same religion they practiced before the Babylonia captivity. It was totally transformed and hence born in the middle east, NOT Egypt. However, its ancient roots are in Africa, just as the ancient roots of Christianity is in Africa and so is Islam. Where they later developed does not negate their place of origin. It is like saying because Japan corners the market on cars right now they are the origin of the automobile, get my meaning?
Yeshua = Jesus. You should check out a book called Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion by Ahmed Osman, it was one of the most compelling books I have read on the subject. You should also check out a book called Moses and Monotheism by Sigmund Freud (yes, the psychologist).
Once you read these books you will start to understand why it has been so important for Euros to try and steal African history.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Christian Egypt fell due to Islam.
Christian Nubia fell due to Saladin.
Christian Aksum fell due to the Islamic renaisance that cut off this civilization from the major trade routes.
I am not sure why there is a failure to understand the different forms of Christianity that took root in Africa.
Certainly I am not referring to the Christianity brought by the colonials powers.
This a very simplistic view point. It has less to do with Islam and more to do with the fact that people who never got along with each other (different tribes in Arabia) were bound together by a common belief system which enabled them to fight off "enemies". If the entire jazeera came together for zoroastrianism, buddhism or whatever other ism, it would have been the same result.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions.
You seem to echo what I said. As for Judaism, anyone who knows anything about the Hebrews should also know that not only was their religion corrupted during the exile period but even their language was significantly changed.
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Christian Egypt fell due to Islam.
Christian Nubia fell due to Saladin.
Christian Aksum fell due to the Islamic renaisance that cut off this civilization from the major trade routes.
I am not sure why there is a failure to understand the different forms of Christianity that took root in Africa.
Certainly I am not referring to the Christianity brought by the colonials powers.
This a very simplistic view point. It has less to do with Islam and more to do with the fact that people who never got along with each other (different tribes in Arabia) were bound together by a common belief system which enabled them to fight off "enemies". If the entire jazeera came together for zoroastrianism, buddhism or whatever other ism, it would have been the same result.
Yes it is much more complex. Especially in the case of Christian Nubia that had long been inter-marrying with Arabs enough so that they had compromised significantly in terms of their zealousness to remain separate from Islamic influence. Certainly by the time of Saladin, Christian Nubia had already essentially fallen to Islam but was restored by the Aksumites. Only to fall again.
Yes it was an economic collapse but this was still the result of Islamic blockage to trade.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions.
You seem to echo what I said. As for Judaism, anyone who knows anything about the Hebrews should also know that not only was their religion corrupted during the exile period but even their language was significantly changed.
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
I personally don't believe it happened under the Hyksos. I believe it started under Akhenaten and they perverted it during the exile. You should check out that book I mentioned.
P.S. what language were they speaking that you say was perverted? They weren't a monolithic group. Also Hebrew was a phrase and didn't denote any specific ethnicity or origin.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
African people would have experienced the renaissance before Europe and we would be the ones sending out missionaries and colonizing the world in the same manner in the past with Africans had religious unity under an African form of Christianity known as the cult of Osiris. [/qb]
AFRICA had thier own renaissance had the same time has or before europe,it's called mali and songhay.West africa before modern times was the center of HIGHER knowledge.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism. [/QB]
^^^ this is off the wall from a number of angles
Posts: 43029 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
^^^ this is off the wall from a number of angles [/QB]
You display your ignorance so proudly, its very astonishing to see.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Osirion i believe the mande and songhay were greatest west african civilizations,the mande being the greatest BUT THAT'S ME. The yoruba,benin empire, akan, the mande etc are all african so it's all good.
All these civilization were great AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS.
Anyway-
The destruction of black civilization by chancellor williams
page 206 The resurrection and the life
quote- It may not be without significance that the renaissance in africa occurred at the same time it developed in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries,and that both in europe and africa islamic sources were the catalysts.
For arabs,like the early greeks,had advanced thier civilization by systematically drawing heavily on the cultures of pre-existing civilizations with which they came in contact as they spread out from the deserts of arabia to distant lands.
They enriched and expanded thier own language in a well organized enterprise in copying the most most important literature they could find.The most most important classical manuscripts had disappeared from europe entirely during the so-called dark ages.
The only sources extant were those copied and preserved by the arabs,without which,scholars generally agree,the great european renaissance could not have not occurred.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions.
You seem to echo what I said. As for Judaism, anyone who knows anything about the Hebrews should also know that not only was their religion corrupted during the exile period but even their language was significantly changed.
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
I personally don't believe it happened under the Hyksos. I believe it started under Akhenaten and they perverted it during the exile. You should check out that book I mentioned.
P.S. what language were they speaking that you say was perverted? They weren't a monolithic group. Also Hebrew was a phrase and didn't denote any specific ethnicity or origin.
Hebrew was rarely spoken anymore after the exile. The people of Judea were now speaking Aramaic.
The Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt for a considerable time. Long enough to be considered Egyptian people by outside groups. I don't see how this could have not polluted Egyptian culture.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Osirion i believe the mande and songhay were greatest west african civilizations,the mande being the greatest BUT THAT'S ME. The yoruba,benin empire, akan, the mande etc are all african so it's all good.
All these civilization were great AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS.
Anyway-
The destruction of black civilization by chancellor williams
page 206 The resurrection and the life
quote- It may not be without significance that the renaissance in africa occurred at the same time it developed in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries,and that both in europe and africa islamic sources were the catalysts.
For arabs,like the early greeks,had advanced thier civilization by systematically drawing heavily on the cultures of pre-existing civilizations with which they came in contact as they spread out from the deserts of arabia to distant lands.
They enriched and expanded thier own language in a well organized enterprise in copying the most most important literature they could find.The most most important classical manuscripts had disappeared from europe entirely during the so-called dark ages.
The only sources extant were those copied and preserved by the arabs,without which,scholars generally agree,the great european renaissance could not have not occurred.
The efficacy of a Civilization can be measured by its influence over a large population. Western Civilization is as a consequence the Greatest Afro-Asiatic/Indo-European (large population) civilization.
Note: The Chinese are starting to build space stations. We can no longer even afford to get to ours.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Hyksos themselves worshiped Set,a God presumably from the area or upper Kemet or Ta Seti,so there was little in the area of corruption plus I don't think they even took Nowe (Thebes)which would have been necessary,and we must remember that one of the Hyksos Kings was called Nahasi who ruled in the delta.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions.
You seem to echo what I said. As for Judaism, anyone who knows anything about the Hebrews should also know that not only was their religion corrupted during the exile period but even their language was significantly changed.
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
I personally don't believe it happened under the Hyksos. I believe it started under Akhenaten and they perverted it during the exile. You should check out that book I mentioned.
P.S. what language were they speaking that you say was perverted? They weren't a monolithic group. Also Hebrew was a phrase and didn't denote any specific ethnicity or origin.
Hebrew was rarely spoken anymore after the exile. The people of Judea were now speaking Aramaic.
The Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt for a considerable time. Long enough to be considered Egyptian people by outside groups. I don't see how this could have not polluted Egyptian culture.
Did you make a mistake when replying to me, I am a little lost on your response? Also there was never a "hebrew" spoken in that time period. That is a fake language, made up by a fake people, who create a fake culture and history. From what I have seen, the language that is now called Hebrew is related to the language spoken by the phonecians. Also from what I understand, hebrew was a catch all phrase, that described a certain type of person(s) and did not denote a ethnicity or place of origin. It has something to do with a type of worker or a bandit or something like that. i can't remember the specifics.
Also remember, Hyksos did not rule ALL of egypt, they were constrained to lower egypt. upper egypt never fell. The 18th dynasty were Theban (upper egypt) and would not have been subjected to Hyksos rule/culture etc. I bring that up because I adhere to the theory that Moses = Akenaten
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please both Christianity and Islam are murder cults. They both came from paganism, and so too your Jewish faith.
murder cults? lol, ummm nope. They all came out of the Egyptian religion though.
Christianity has it bith place in Egypt as does Judaism. It is Islam that is not African in terms of its birthplace.
Christianity is very similar to the cult of Osiris. I am Christian so I don't like talking about the similarities because it makes me feel like I am being heretical. But the cult of Osiris has a trinity, a God who is killed and is resurrected, and that very same being sits to judge man at death.
Even the name Osiris (Ausar) and Jesus may have similar meanings. Osiris being the saviour of Egypt and Jesus liks Joshua having the same meaning.
You need to understand history before you form these sorts of opinions.
You seem to echo what I said. As for Judaism, anyone who knows anything about the Hebrews should also know that not only was their religion corrupted during the exile period but even their language was significantly changed.
However, in terms of origin, Judaism was born in Egypt by a Hebrew trained in Egyptian mythology. But I would argue that the Hyksos ruled Egypt for long enough to have corrupted Egyptian religion enough to make this new religion a mixture of West Asian and African. Christianity may be seen as a return to a more Egyptian form of Judaism.
I personally don't believe it happened under the Hyksos. I believe it started under Akhenaten and they perverted it during the exile. You should check out that book I mentioned.
P.S. what language were they speaking that you say was perverted? They weren't a monolithic group. Also Hebrew was a phrase and didn't denote any specific ethnicity or origin.
Hebrew was rarely spoken anymore after the exile. The people of Judea were now speaking Aramaic.
The Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt for a considerable time. Long enough to be considered Egyptian people by outside groups. I don't see how this could have not polluted Egyptian culture.
Did you make a mistake when replying to me, I am a little lost on your response? Also there was never a "hebrew" spoken in that time period. That is a fake language, made up by a fake people, who create a fake culture and history. From what I have seen, the language that is now called Hebrew is related to the language spoken by the phonecians. Also from what I understand, hebrew was a catch all phrase, that described a certain type of person(s) and did not denote a ethnicity or place of origin. It has something to do with a type of worker or a bandit or something like that. i can't remember the specifics.
Also remember, Hyksos did not rule ALL of egypt, they were constrained to lower egypt. upper egypt never fell. The 18th dynasty were Theban (upper egypt) and would not have been subjected to Hyksos rule/culture etc. I bring that up because I adhere to the theory that Moses = Akenaten. I also believe they can't "find" 10 of the so called 12 tribes because they are Africans. We have at least two groups in Nigeria, one in cameroon, one in Habasha (Ethiopia) and one in Zimbabwe with origins in that faith it seems. I think there were two groups that the bible is talking about. One was african and adhered to Akenaten/Moses beliefs and another was a group of Semetics living in Goshen Egypt, that would later accept his teachings.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Christian Egypt fell due to Islam.
Christian Nubia fell due to Saladin.
Christian Aksum fell due to the Islamic renaisance that cut off this civilization from the major trade routes.
I am not sure why there is a failure to understand the different forms of Christianity that took root in Africa.
Certainly I am not referring to the Christianity brought by the colonials powers.
This a very simplistic view point. It has less to do with Islam and more to do with the fact that people who never got along with each other (different tribes in Arabia) were bound together by a common belief system which enabled them to fight off "enemies". If the entire jazeera came together for zoroastrianism, buddhism or whatever other ism, it would have been the same result.
Yes it is much more complex. Especially in the case of Christian Nubia that had long been inter-marrying with Arabs enough so that they had compromised significantly in terms of their zealousness to remain separate from Islamic influence. Certainly by the time of Saladin, Christian Nubia had already essentially fallen to Islam but was restored by the Aksumites. Only to fall again.
Yes it was an economic collapse but this was still the result of Islamic blockage to trade.
Nubian people Present day The influx of Arabs to Egypt and Sudan had contributed to the suppression of the Nubian identity following the collapse of the last Nubian kingdom in 1900. A major part of the modern Nubian population were Arabised. The Jaa'leen-the majority of Northern Sudanese and some Donglawes in Sudan, Kenuz and Koreskos in Egypt all claimed to be Arabs. However the vast majority of the Nubians converted to Islam, and Arabic became their main language, in addition to their indigenous old Nubian language. The unique characteristics of Nubians are their culture (dress, dances, traditions and music) as well as their indigenous language which is a common feature of most Nubians.
kept in mind the south nubian kingdom was stronger,those nubains never intermarried with arabs,but to protect themselves have their kingdom fell,they brainwash themselves over time to become arabs to stop the arb raids,that's one of the reason why most blacks arabs in the sudan do not have any arab dna.
Now is much harder to brain wash them back to their true culture,this may never happen and if it does it may take time.
Alwa was the larger nubian kingdom.
Also nubians living outside the nile vally like those in chad,nigeria,darfur,noba hills,KENYA UGDANDA etc.... do not have any arab admixture meaning these are still unmixed black africans.
Anyway most nubians in sudan have no arab admixture,BUT large nubians do,but more so in egypt,but even in egypt most in recent times may have no arab admixture either since in more recent times nubians from sudan from the nile valley have come there to live.
Here is some of real history of christian nubia.
makuria
By the end of the 6th century it had converted to Christianity, but in the 7th century Egypt was conquered by the Islamic armies, and Nubia was cut off from the rest of Christendom. In 651 an Arab army invaded, but it was repulsed and a treaty known as the baqt was signed creating a relative peace between the two sides that lasted until the 13th century. Makuria expanded, annexing its northern neighbour Nobatia either at the time of the Arab invasion or during the reign of King Merkurios. The period from roughly 750 to 1150 saw the kingdom stable and prosperous, in what has been called the "Golden Age".[1] Increased aggression from Egypt, and internal discord led to the state's collapse in the 14th century.
Civil War and Collapse After a period of peace King Karanbas defaulted on these payments, and the Mamluks again invaded and occupied the kingdom in 1312. This time a Muslim member of the Makurian dynasty was placed on the throne. Sayf al-Din Abdullah Barshambu began converting the nation to Islam and in 1317 the Dongola cathedral was turned into a mosque. This was not accepted by other Makurian leaders and the nation fell into civil war and anarchy that very year. The countryside came under the control of the raiding tribes from the desert, and the monarchy was left with effective control over little more than the capital. This effectively ended Makuria as a unified state. There is some evidence the Makurian dynasty survived until the end of the 14th century, including a Makurian call for aid in 1397. It has been suggested that the change of African trade routes and the Black Death did play a major role in the collapse.
Dotawo Dotawo (Old Nubian: Lower Dau or Daw) was a kingdom that might have existed in the Beja Region of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt Lower Nubia in the Middle Ages. It has long been known that a kingdom by this name is mentioned as existing during the collapse of Makuria in the thirteenth century. It was reported to be one of the last surviving Christian states in the region. Scholars believed it was one of a number of small successor states to emerge during this anarchic period. However, the large collection of documents found at Qasr Ibrim in the 1960s overturned this view. The Qasr Ibrim find contains many documents relating to relations between the Eparch of Nobatia and the King of Dotawo. These include relations during the Makuria's peak in the 12th century. The Eparch even seems to have had far more dealings with the king of Dotawo than his overlord the king of Makuria.
One explanation for this is that Dotawo is simply another name for Makuria. The depiction of multiple kings clashes with the description of the region given by Arab traveler Ibn Selim el-Aswani. In no known document are the names of both Dotawa and Makuria present, and at several points the listed names of the king of Dotawa matches those of Makuria.
However at many other points in time the name of the King of Dotawa being written to does not match that of the King of Makuria. The name also seems to indicate a Kingdom based at Gebel Adda, also known as Daw. One Arab writer reports that the Beja region was structured with thirteen lesser kings under one "Great King," and Dotawo could have been one of these vassal kingdoms.
References * Adams, William Y. "The United Kingdom of Makouria and Nobadia: A Medieval Nubian Anomaly." Egypt and Africa: Nubia from Prehistory to Islam. Edited by W.V. Davies. London: British Museum Press, 1991.
Alodia Alodia or Alwa was the southernmost of the three kingdoms of Christian Nubia; the other two were Nobatia and Makuria to the north.
Ibn Hawqal is the most important external source on the country, being one of the only detailed first hand accounts of a traveller to the country. He describes Alodia as being larger, wealthier, and more powerful than Makuria, with the country covering a large region stretching from Ethiopia to the Kordofan.
Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
# ^ P.L. Shinnie, Ancient Nubia (London: Kegan Paul International, 1996), p. 133.
BOOK The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia - Bryn Mawr Classical Review
Derek A. Welsby, The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia. Pagans, Christians and Muslims along the Middle Nile. London: The British Museum Press ...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I disagree with Osirion's premise. Takruri is right that he obviously does not the history of these African states to blame Islam as the reason why they fell. These empires fell simply due to economic and mainly political turmoil the same as any other empire.
Christian Egypt fell due to Islam.
Christian Nubia fell due to Saladin.
Christian Aksum fell due to the Islamic renaisance that cut off this civilization from the major trade routes.
I am not sure why there is a failure to understand the different forms of Christianity that took root in Africa.
Certainly I am not referring to the Christianity brought by the colonials powers.
This a very simplistic view point. It has less to do with Islam and more to do with the fact that people who never got along with each other (different tribes in Arabia) were bound together by a common belief system which enabled them to fight off "enemies". If the entire jazeera came together for zoroastrianism, buddhism or whatever other ism, it would have been the same result.
Yes it is much more complex. Especially in the case of Christian Nubia that had long been inter-marrying with Arabs enough so that they had compromised significantly in terms of their zealousness to remain separate from Islamic influence. Certainly by the time of Saladin, Christian Nubia had already essentially fallen to Islam but was restored by the Aksumites. Only to fall again.
Yes it was an economic collapse but this was still the result of Islamic blockage to trade.
Nubian people Present day The influx of Arabs to Egypt and Sudan had contributed to the suppression of the Nubian identity following the collapse of the last Nubian kingdom in 1900. A major part of the modern Nubian population were Arabised. The Jaa'leen-the majority of Northern Sudanese and some Donglawes in Sudan, Kenuz and Koreskos in Egypt all claimed to be Arabs. However the vast majority of the Nubians converted to Islam, and Arabic became their main language, in addition to their indigenous old Nubian language. The unique characteristics of Nubians are their culture (dress, dances, traditions and music) as well as their indigenous language which is a common feature of most Nubians.
kept in mind the south nubian kingdom was stronger,those nubains never intermarried with arabs,but to protect themselves have their kingdom fell,they brainwash themselves over time to become arabs to stop the arb raids,that's one of the reason why most blacks arabs in the sudan do not have any arab dna.
Now is much harder to brain wash them back to their true culture,this may never happen and if it does it may take time.
Alwa was the larger nubian kingdom.
Also nubians living outside the nile vally like those in chad,nigeria,darfur,noba hills,KENYA UGDANDA etc.... do not have any arab admixture meaning these are still unmixed black africans.
Anyway most nubians in sudan have no arab admixture,BUT large nubians do,but more so in egypt,but even in egypt most in recent times may have no arab admixture either since in more recent times nubians from sudan from the nile valley have come there to live.
Here is some of real history of christian nubia.
makuria
By the end of the 6th century it had converted to Christianity, but in the 7th century Egypt was conquered by the Islamic armies, and Nubia was cut off from the rest of Christendom. In 651 an Arab army invaded, but it was repulsed and a treaty known as the baqt was signed creating a relative peace between the two sides that lasted until the 13th century. Makuria expanded, annexing its northern neighbour Nobatia either at the time of the Arab invasion or during the reign of King Merkurios. The period from roughly 750 to 1150 saw the kingdom stable and prosperous, in what has been called the "Golden Age".[1] Increased aggression from Egypt, and internal discord led to the state's collapse in the 14th century.
Civil War and Collapse After a period of peace King Karanbas defaulted on these payments, and the Mamluks again invaded and occupied the kingdom in 1312. This time a Muslim member of the Makurian dynasty was placed on the throne. Sayf al-Din Abdullah Barshambu began converting the nation to Islam and in 1317 the Dongola cathedral was turned into a mosque. This was not accepted by other Makurian leaders and the nation fell into civil war and anarchy that very year. The countryside came under the control of the raiding tribes from the desert, and the monarchy was left with effective control over little more than the capital. This effectively ended Makuria as a unified state. There is some evidence the Makurian dynasty survived until the end of the 14th century, including a Makurian call for aid in 1397. It has been suggested that the change of African trade routes and the Black Death did play a major role in the collapse.
Dotawo Dotawo (Old Nubian: Lower Dau or Daw) was a kingdom that might have existed in the Beja Region of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt Lower Nubia in the Middle Ages. It has long been known that a kingdom by this name is mentioned as existing during the collapse of Makuria in the thirteenth century. It was reported to be one of the last surviving Christian states in the region. Scholars believed it was one of a number of small successor states to emerge during this anarchic period. However, the large collection of documents found at Qasr Ibrim in the 1960s overturned this view. The Qasr Ibrim find contains many documents relating to relations between the Eparch of Nobatia and the King of Dotawo. These include relations during the Makuria's peak in the 12th century. The Eparch even seems to have had far more dealings with the king of Dotawo than his overlord the king of Makuria.
One explanation for this is that Dotawo is simply another name for Makuria. The depiction of multiple kings clashes with the description of the region given by Arab traveler Ibn Selim el-Aswani. In no known document are the names of both Dotawa and Makuria present, and at several points the listed names of the king of Dotawa matches those of Makuria.
However at many other points in time the name of the King of Dotawa being written to does not match that of the King of Makuria. The name also seems to indicate a Kingdom based at Gebel Adda, also known as Daw. One Arab writer reports that the Beja region was structured with thirteen lesser kings under one "Great King," and Dotawo could have been one of these vassal kingdoms.
References * Adams, William Y. "The United Kingdom of Makouria and Nobadia: A Medieval Nubian Anomaly." Egypt and Africa: Nubia from Prehistory to Islam. Edited by W.V. Davies. London: British Museum Press, 1991.
Alodia Alodia or Alwa was the southernmost of the three kingdoms of Christian Nubia; the other two were Nobatia and Makuria to the north.
Ibn Hawqal is the most important external source on the country, being one of the only detailed first hand accounts of a traveller to the country. He describes Alodia as being larger, wealthier, and more powerful than Makuria, with the country covering a large region stretching from Ethiopia to the Kordofan.
Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
# ^ P.L. Shinnie, Ancient Nubia (London: Kegan Paul International, 1996), p. 133.
BOOK The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia - Bryn Mawr Classical Review
Derek A. Welsby, The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia. Pagans, Christians and Muslims along the Middle Nile. London: The British Museum Press ...
Part of my problem with this is what the hell is "Nubian identity"? This is a false identifier created in the 1600s by Europeans. Secondly, These "Nubians" are a group of varied ethnic groups. I think people who write about these people need to find another way to identify them instead of using that politically charged name which I believe is used to separate the indigenous people form their history and homeland.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: A scholar i talked to awhile ago believes that what we call nubians has a ethnic group today had their own names of course,but it's not known.
She believes just like i do that the kushites for example were a sub-group are just another tribe belonging to this major ethnic group and the noba for example was apart of it.
The egyptians had a name for the major ethnic group that kushites and noba belong to,but of course they included the medjay in this group,and if there is any group that does not belong in this major group it is them.
The a-group or wawat may or may not have been apart of that,but the culture was basically the same has other nile nubians or those groups from yam or later kush unlike the medjay.
It's clear that medjay were a different ethnic group that was more clearly different the nile nubians,they were called the desert nubians.
SHE BELIEVES THE NILE NUBIANS WERE basically the same folks,IT'S just THAT you had different tribes or sub-groups,and varied looks depending on the region.
Of course these are on going debates so even certain scholars are not so clear yet about the relationships, but they did all share the same basic culture to varied degrees,and in end the noba for example intermarried with kushites,and some others may have become nobazied meaning they started speaking the nubian,so if the noba and kushites did not start out has one in the end over time they did became one,since the noba clealy later on were basiaclly kushite in culture anyway.
Even if they were not kushite in culture the noba basically had the same basic culture has the kushites,and later became more kushite in end.
Of Course over time there was some changes in culture but the basic culture remain.
It's kind of like the greek and macedonian debates,they get heated too.
For those debate you have scholars that say macedonians were never greeks at first,some other say they were a completely different ethnic group,but in the end the became one ANYWAY,since macedonians clearly later on had greek culture by the 4 cen. b.c.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic