quote:Stepping through a low doorway into his small house, Fida Ag Mohammed sits at a table and pats a pile of books in front of him. Even in the dim light it's clear that these are no ordinary volumes. The books are covered with intricately hand-tooled sheep- or goatskin; inside, hundreds of pages of yellowed paper are filled with Arabic calligraphy — the painstaking penmanship of Mohammed's forebears centuries ago. "One of my ancestors from the 12th century began our family library," Mohammed says. "There are hundreds of collections like this."
Those collections — stashed in libraries, locked away in closets or buried in the desert sands — have been preserved, in large part, by Timbuktu's isolation from the rest of the world. Landing in this blisteringly hot Malian town in the southwestern corner of the Sahara feels a little like arriving at the end of the earth. Dirt tracks melt into the featureless desert sands. Chickens peck in the shade between mud-walled houses. Little wonder that Timbuktu is a byword for remoteness.
But Timbuktu's manuscripts might just change that. The books date from between the 14th and 16th centuries, a time when the town was a thriving trading hub and intellectual center for West Africa. Now, scared that Timbuktu's 50,000 or so surviving books might disintegrate or be sold off to foreign collectors, African and Western organizations are racing to salvage the treasures, preserving them from the ravages of climate, dust and the passage of hundreds of years. Millions of dollars have been spent in laborious conservation and cataloguing of the works. A sleek new museum, completed last April, is scheduled to open to the public in November. The museum will display tens of thousands of Timbuktu's books to the world, and, its backers hope, shatter any lingering notion that Africa has no historic literary tradition of its own.
There is a catch, though. As Timbuktu opens to outsiders and word of its treasures spreads, so too does the interest in the books from outside collectors. In some ways, saving these old manuscripts could imperil them further. In decades past only the hardy visited Timbuktu; the journey required days of travel up the malaria-infested Niger River. Today, dozens of tourists arrive several times a week on small commercial planes from Bamako, the capital of the former French colony. Timbuktu has become a favorite jumping-off point to explore the world's biggest desert. As the modern world rushes in, attitudes among Timbuktu's youth — the generation who will take custody of all those precious manuscripts — is changing fast. Entertainment in Timbuktu these days includes sitting under the stars watching European football matches on satellite television. "This generation has the Internet, they see movies, they go away to study," says Mohammed, who is astonished at the changes he has seen in his 42 years. To look after the books "we choose a child who can take care of the manuscripts: someone who's always going to stay here." But kids keep leaving, the world keeps rushing in. Timbuktu's books have survived centuries of isolation. Can they survive their modern-day fame?
A Rush to Save the Treasures
Sitting at a junction of the Sahara's historic commercial routes on a lazy bend of the Niger River, Timbuktu used to be a hectic crossroads where gold traders heading north met herders and salt merchants trekking south across the desert. The city's lucrative trade fueled Mali's empires as well as a rich ethnic blend of black Africans and Mediterranean people, and an intellectual ferment with dozens of Koranic schools. Refugees from the Inquisition in Spain brought their libraries with them, and soon began writing and buying more books. Timbuktu's literary output was enormous, and included works covering the history of Africa and southern Europe, religion, mathematics, medicine and law. There were manuscripts detailing the movement of the stars, possible cures for malaria and remedies for menstrual pain. "I have here my family's whole history," says Ismael Diadié Haidara, whose ancestors carried their books to Timbuktu from Toledo, Spain when they fled religious persecution in 1467, and later wrote and purchased thousands more. "Families which were exiled, which had no country, had their libraries. It was people's security. They could say, 'This is where we come from.' "
About half the surviving works — some illuminated in gold and crimson, others illustrated with maps — are intact. But even the best works are fragile, the pages brittle, the covers damaged. "There are a lot of problems with the manuscripts," says Timbuktu's imam Ali Imam Ben Essayouti, 62, who has bought several manuscripts from locals who need the cash and sense they might otherwise lose them altogether. "Houses collapse in the rain. The termites eat them. People borrow them and never bring them back."
Malian researchers were amazed at what they found when they began riding camels through the Sahara in the 1970s in search of older works. "We were totally astonished by the volume of manuscripts. There were boxes and boxes of them from the 16th and 17th centuries," says Mahmoud Zouber, who in 1976 became the first director of Timbuktu's Ahmed Baba Institute, the main government-run research center, and who is now counselor on Islamic affairs to Mali's President. Zouber says he immediately realized the manuscripts' primary source importance. "Colonizers had always argued that they were here to civilize Africa," he says. "But there were many points of light. Clearly Africa was not living in obscurity."
There is a second page if you click on the link. The page is from 2009, so it's recent. It's nice to see the preservation is going along pretty well. I'm wondering when translations will be released to the public though. The above bolded passage is very intriguing. It tells of Moors fleeing to Mali during their persecution in Spain. This is an area that deserves much more scholarship. Surely the West African-Moorish connection goes back a long time though. The whole area up and down West Africa was at one point in time controlled by the Almoravids. But what would the knowledge of West Africans with Moorish ancestry mean to the descendents of the African diaspora? Meaning there could very well be African-Americans with direct Moorish ancestry. That's not far-fetched to us on this website, but to others it definitely would be. Not a large population of African Americans, but a percentage nonetheless.
It's also good that the Kingdom of Mali is getting public attention from a big magazine like TIME. The empire itself has received SOME mainstream attention...it was also in Civilization 4, a popular-selling computer game. I'm waiting for a program on the History Channel or History International dedicated to the West African Empires though.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
We also have to watch out for outside forces adding in phrases like the one from this recent article.
"Tahar estimates that he has about 2,700 manuscripts, acquired and carefully kept in the family by generations of erudite ancestors. The manuscripts act as a written record of centuries of Arab and North African culture, dealing with every subject from religion to history, science and medicine."
As the documents gain more publicity, I think there will be an attempt to "Berberize" them. The Timbuktu manuscripts are not part of Arab and "North African" culture. It's West African history...it's BLACK history. The Tuaregs who are heavily connected to the story (and other ethnic groups as well) and still reside in parts of West Africa are not "North African" in appearence. The vast majority of them are Black. The manuscripts are on par, in terms of importance, with the Dead Sea Scrolls...and we've heard plenty about them.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
This is how it is done. For starters, reading up on history of the "western Sudan", instead of free-for-all opinionated ignorance by a lot of clowns here, who think that such puke passes for fact. I've come to realize that ignorance of this history here is astonishing. No wonder you have certain clowns obsessing over ancient Egypt, and literally worshiping places outside of Africa. Might I add, these individuals I'm referring to, are by and large the very individuals who trumpet themselves as "blacks". The next task is of course, to get off their lazy behinds, do some extensive traveling to Africa, and open their eyes and minds. BBC, CNN or Fox news is not going to give you all you need to know about Africa, and certainly fantasizing away on a keyboard all day long, is not going to enrich the mind on things African.
And oh, this emphasis bit is of interest to me as well:
Refugees from the Inquisition in Spain brought their libraries with them, and soon began writing and buying more books. Timbuktu's literary output was enormous, and included works covering the history of Africa and southern Europe, religion, mathematics, medicine and law. There were manuscripts detailing the movement of the stars, possible cures for malaria and remedies for menstrual pain. "I have here my family's whole history," says Ismael Diadié Haidara, whose ancestors carried their books to Timbuktu from Toledo, Spain when they fled religious persecution in 1467, and later wrote and purchased thousands more. "Families which were exiled, which had no country, had their libraries. It was people's security. They could say, 'This is where we come from.' "
A do-nothing place doesn't become a center of learning, which is what one gets, reading off of the ignorance spewed here day in and out, about 'medieval' western Sudanic complexes.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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King, I guess the strong language was effective in revealing my intolerance for excessive and unnecessary display of stupidity, and a willful one at that. It doesn't really matter in my opinion, where you start what amounts to an educational tour, really. The important thing is to grasp the magnitude of diversity of not only people and cultures across Africa, but also in economic terms. This therefore means, having experience in multiple locations within reach, which boils down to the issue of affordability. The problem with many in the 'west', is that rather than going in primarily for learning experience, they try to go in for missionary purposes. Unlike some posters here, I was born and raised on the continent, and at times, I just can't help but sit back and laugh at individuals on the net, likely based in the so-called 'west', go on all day about how they supposedly know what's best for Africans even more than Africans, which I guess -- makes Africans the folks who can't think for themselves, and spend too much time bedazzling themselves about what's wrong with Africans. I'm telling you, if Africans were nearly as hopeless as one might get from reading comments on this board, their suicide rates ought to be higher than those in the so-called 'west'. That however, is clearly not the case, I wonder why.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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African people is not having a high suicide rate because they don't need "Others" to tell them how great they are or not. Your right in the west people are sadly taking there lives when they should know that there life is important.
Just goes to show you that material wealth does not make up for Happiness. Promotion of God, love and Freedom is the start of living a happy life.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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There is a high death rate for African and African descended populations world wide due to suicide or otherwise. Doesn't hurt to know the truth whether you love African people or not. Although in Africa this impact is highly diminished by birth rate. However, in America, African American population growth is expected to grow much more slowly relative to other groups over the same time period. The other groups, latino and Asians are expected to almost double in the same period.
Posts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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The documents uncovered so far are only the tip of the iceberg. Between Morocco and West Africa there was something called the ink road which linked Timbuktu, other cities in West Africa and Morocco to cities and learning centers in Spain. West Africans often traveled to Universities in Spain to teach as well.
In Timbuktu alone there an estimated 300,000 to 700,000 manuscripts and probably more that are calculated to exist. Most are not in the permanent collection being digitized in the Ahmed Baba center. Likewise across Niger, Mali and Mauritania, Senegal and other places there are even more manuscripts which would add up to millions from the same time period, let alone those in Morocco as well. And these cover all aspects of history, science, math and everything else.
Posts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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There is a high death rate for African and African descended populations world wide due to suicide or otherwise.
Mention was made of suicide, and that distinction had already been made here, in relation to a specific point that was to be made, prior to your interjection. If you are downplaying this fact of the matter, then here is something for you to deliver without delay: What data do you have of high suicide rate in Africa that is anywhere near those in the 'West'?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I am just saying that suicide is only one part of the overall death rate and that in many ways the forces affecting that death rate have various manifestations in the African diaspora. One of which is suicide.
More big picture I guess.
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King_Scorpion the reason why they say that it is part of the Arab culture is because the writings of timbuktu are in Arabic. They were taught how to read and write by the Arabs and berbers who descended into that region.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: We also have to watch out for outside forces adding in phrases like the one from this recent article.
"Tahar estimates that he has about 2,700 manuscripts, acquired and carefully kept in the family by generations of erudite ancestors. The manuscripts act as a written record of centuries of Arab and North African culture, dealing with every subject from religion to history, science and medicine."
As the documents gain more publicity, I think there will be an attempt to "Berberize" them. The Timbuktu manuscripts are not part of Arab and "North African" culture. It's West African history...it's BLACK history. The Tuaregs who are heavily connected to the story (and other ethnic groups as well) and still reside in parts of West Africa are not "North African" in appearence. The vast majority of them are Black. The manuscripts are on par, in terms of importance, with the Dead Sea Scrolls...and we've heard plenty about them.
My point is not whether suicide in of itself ever occurs or could be factored at all into "death rate statistics" amongst African tragedies, but that suicide is comparatively low for a people that are heavily stereotyped with Armageddon-style beyond-hope image mainly held by 'westerners' glued to TV sets and stuck on the internet all day long, but never actually travel, let alone set foot in Africa, i.e. when compared to suicide incidences among "westerners", who like to brag like crazy about being economically better off than Africans. Interestingly, visible sections of "westerners", a better chunk of which are reactionary 'whites', have disdain for Africans, an attitude for which they generally have little cause, since much of the time Africans mind their own business, unlike 'western' states who constantly parasitically meddle in internal African affairs, and are not too much caught up on vile Eurocentric propaganda about them and why euros are so obsessively reactive about them. Case in point, it is mostly euro loons who come here just to let 'blacks' or Africans know how much they hate them. Conversely, few Africans, at least the level-headed ones, do the reverse, i.e. go to euro-dedicated boards just for the sole purpose of giving it to them euros about how they are despised, even though Africans actually have genuine ample cause to do such. But enough of this, lest the main topic is lost. So I reiterate my last point, which was that...
Timbuktu was a notable learning center of the then reigning Arab/Islamic world in the geopolitical network of the westward oriented hemisphere. The richly preserved literacy record of the place speaks for itself. And like someone reckoned earlier, it is only a matter of time when the Timbuktu initiative that brought this about will be downplayed, to give credit elsewhere it is undue. It is the old age Eurocentric need to falsely convince themselves of the inert superiority, and eliminate anything African that contradicts this [Case in point, is the post immediately above mine]. The point: A backwater is rarely a center of learning; yet reading the ignorance spewed here every now and then, this is the picture one is predisposed to getting about 'medieval' western Sudanic complexes.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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King_Scorpion the reason why they say that it is part of the Arab culture is because the writings of timbuktu are in Arabic. They were taught how to read and write by the Arabs and berbers who descended into that region.
It is first and foremost the legacy of Timbuktu, and little to do Arabic culture. And you are dead wrong. Experimentation on scripts have long been *independently* undertaken in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including western Africa. On the other hand, where did the Arabs learn how to speak and write; from Africans. Bet you were not aware of that little bit of history. The only reason western Sudanic complexed embraced widespread use of Arabic, is for the same reason they expediently took on Islam; because the dominating trade network which was the source of their wealth, was with partners who adopted Arabic. Pure and simple, it was a geopolitical calculation. Africans have probably created more scripts *independently* at different locations than any other place.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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My point is not whether suicide in of itself ever occurs or could be factored at all into "death rate statistics" amongst African tragedies, but that suicide is comparatively low for a people that are heavily stereotyped with Armageddon-style beyond-hope image mainly held by 'westerners' glued to TV sets and stuck on the internet all day long, but never actually travel, let alone set foot in Africa, i.e. when compared to suicide incidences among "westerners", who like to brag like crazy about being economically better off than Africans. Interestingly, visible sections of "westerners", a better chunk of which are reactionary 'whites', have disdain for Africans, an attitude for which they generally have little cause, since much of the time Africans mind their own business, unlike 'western' states who constantly parasitically meddle in internal African affairs, and are not too much caught up on vile Eurocentric propaganda about them and why euros are so obsessively reactive about them. Case in point, it is mostly euro loons who come here just to let 'blacks' or Africans know how much they hate them. Conversely, few Africans, at least the level-headed ones, do the reverse, i.e. go to euro-dedicated boards just for the sole purpose of giving it to them euros about how they are despised, even though Africans actually have genuine ample cause to do such. But enough of this, lest the main topic is lost. So I reiterate my last point, which was that...
Timbuktu was a notable learning center of the then reigning Arab/Islamic world in the geopolitical network of the westward oriented hemisphere. The richly preserved literacy record of the place speaks for itself. And like someone reckoned earlier, it is only a matter of time when the Timbuktu initiative that brought this about will be downplayed, to give credit elsewhere it is undue. It is the old age Eurocentric need to falsely convince themselves of the inert superiority, and eliminate anything African that contradicts this [Case in point, is the post immediately above mine]. The point: A backwater is rarely a center of learning; yet reading the ignorance spewed here every now and then, this is the picture one is predisposed to getting about 'medieval' western Sudanic complexes.
Exporer you are right, Timbuctou was a testament to the pioneering and intellectual capabilities of the Africans in that region. Despite this people will just bring up that its "Arab" culture and that "Arabs" and "Berbers" taught the dumb natives etc. Yet forget that the Arabs and Berbers were taught by other Africans and people like Egyptians, Jews, Persians, Chinese, Indians etc. so how can it be Arab culture.
Anyway back to the topic I hope they translate and publish some of the Manuscripts. Im interseted in what the manuscripts hold.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Some of the Manuscripts Here is an article from National Geographic Where the great sands of the Sahara meet the savannas of North Africa, lies the fabled city of Timbuktu. A mythical destination, Timbuktu is but a mirage of the imagination for most people. But since the 12th century, Timbuktu has been a forbidden place and one of the most august centers of Islamic learning and trade within Muslim society. Yet since the late 1800s, the city's importance had declined, drifting to the sandy edges of the Sahara desert and into the imaginations of the New World's folklore.
Beginning in the 12th century, Timbuktu was becoming one of the great centers of learning in the Islamic world. Scholars and students traveled from as far away as Cairo, Baghdad, and elsewhere in Persia to study from the noted manuscripts found in Timbuktu. Respected scholars who taught in Timbuktu were referred to as ambassadors of peace throughout North Africa.
An integral part of Timbuktu history was always trade—the exchange of salt that came from the heart of the Sahara desert. To this day, camel caravans laden with salt, also known as "the gold of the desert," journey to Timbuktu, in present-day Mali, West Africa, where the salt is sold in the markets of the Niger River towns of Mopti, Djénné, and beyond.
Since the 12th century, accompanying the camel caravans rode the intrepid scholars of Islamic learning, bringing with them over time hundreds of thousands of manuscripts. These bound texts highlighted the great teachings of Islam during the Middle Ages. These sacred manuscripts covered an array of subjects: astronomy, medicine, mathematics, chemistry, judicial law, government, and Islamic conflict resolution. Islamic study during this period of human history, when the intellectual evolution had stalled in the rest of Europe was growing, evolving, and breaking new ground in the fields of science, mathematics, astronomy, law, and philosophy within the Muslim world.
By the 1300s the "Ambassadors of Peace" centered around the University of Timbuktu created roving scholastic campuses and religious schools of learning that traveled between the cities of Timbuktu, Gao, and Djénné, helping to serve as a model of peaceful governance throughout an often conflict-riddled tribal region.
At its peak, over 25,000 students attended the University of Timbuktu.
By the beginning of the 1600s with the Moroccan invasions from the north, however, the scholars of Timbuktu began to slowly drift away and study elsewhere. As a result, the city's sacred manuscripts began to fall into disrepair. While Islamic teachings there continued for another 300 years, the biggest decline in scholastic study occurred with the French colonization of present-day Mali in the late 1890s.
Today, Timbuktu still holds the allure of its namesake. But clearly it has drifted to the edges of the desert as a dusty adobe outpost that holds defiantly onto the title of being the gateway to the mystical Sahara.
Down the sand filled alleyways and into mud homes lie the private collections of the sacred manuscripts that date back over some 600 years. The Ahmed Baba Research Center houses the largest collection. Some scholars estimate that there are over 700,000 manuscripts housed throughout collections in Timbuktu.
With the pressures of poverty, a series of droughts, and a tribal Tureg rebellion in Mali that lasted over ten years, the manuscripts continue to disappear into the black market, where they are illegally sold to private and university collections in Europe and the United States. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030527_timbuktu.htmlPosts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: Between Morocco and West Africa there was something called the ink road which linked Timbuktu, other cities in West Africa and Morocco to cities and learning centers in Spain. West Africans often traveled to Universities in Spain to teach as well.
You say the above as if Morocco is not in so called "west" Africa. How in hell is Morocco not "west" African when it is geographically the most western country on the entire African continent?
Did you look at a map before you posted the above?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: It's West African history...it's BLACK history. The Tuaregs who are heavily connected to the story (and other ethnic groups as well) and still reside in parts of West Africa are not "North African" in appearence. The vast majority of them are Black.
Doesn't everyone just love how the white liberals on this forum try to patronize "blacks" as if they are children. Their racism and belief in pseudoscience always seems to come to the fore as well.
King_Scorpion, what is a "North African" appearance?
How does a "North African" look?
What is "West" African?
What is "Black"?
quote: It's West African history...it's BLACK history.
By your above statement, you are saying that "BLACK" history is "West" African history and "West" African history is "BLACK" history.
Which essentially negates any so called non-"West" African region as not "BLACK". It also says that people from so called "West" Africa whose skin color is not "Black" are not a part of so called "West" Africa. If you would get up off your dead ass and visit places like either of the two Congolese countries, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, and the others you would see that for yourself.
You need to get your flat ass out of here with your eurocentric dung.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It is first and foremost the legacy of Timbuktu,
Of course it is the legacy of Timbuktu but you cannot ignore the that all the writings of Timbuktu are Arabic.
quote: and little to do Arabic culture.
I disagree. Can you provide any local indigenous timbuktu writings? I have never seen any.
quote: Experimentation on scripts have long been *independently* undertaken in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including western Africa.
Timbuktu writings are in Arabic. You cannot get around that.
quote: On the other hand, where did the Arabs learn how to speak and write; from Africans. Bet you were not aware of that little bit of history. The only reason western Sudanic complexed embraced widespread use of Arabic, is for the same reason they expediently took on Islam; because the dominating trade network which was the source of their wealth, was with partners who adopted Arabic. Pure and simple, it was a geopolitical calculation.
Present any local indigenous writings of Timbuktu from their vast library. I'd like to see them.
Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 2010
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" While Islamic teachings there continued for another 300 years, the biggest decline in scholastic study occurred with the French colonization of present-day Mali in the late 1890s."
Arabic culture influenced Timbuktu culture.
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Some of the Manuscripts Here is an article from National Geographic Where the great sands of the Sahara meet the savannas of North Africa, lies the fabled city of Timbuktu. A mythical destination, Timbuktu is but a mirage of the imagination for most people. But since the 12th century, Timbuktu has been a forbidden place and one of the most august centers of Islamic learning and trade within Muslim society. Yet since the late 1800s, the city's importance had declined, drifting to the sandy edges of the Sahara desert and into the imaginations of the New World's folklore.
Beginning in the 12th century, Timbuktu was becoming one of the great centers of learning in the Islamic world. Scholars and students traveled from as far away as Cairo, Baghdad, and elsewhere in Persia to study from the noted manuscripts found in Timbuktu. Respected scholars who taught in Timbuktu were referred to as ambassadors of peace throughout North Africa.
An integral part of Timbuktu history was always trade—the exchange of salt that came from the heart of the Sahara desert. To this day, camel caravans laden with salt, also known as "the gold of the desert," journey to Timbuktu, in present-day Mali, West Africa, where the salt is sold in the markets of the Niger River towns of Mopti, Djénné, and beyond.
Since the 12th century, accompanying the camel caravans rode the intrepid scholars of Islamic learning, bringing with them over time hundreds of thousands of manuscripts. These bound texts highlighted the great teachings of Islam during the Middle Ages. These sacred manuscripts covered an array of subjects: astronomy, medicine, mathematics, chemistry, judicial law, government, and Islamic conflict resolution. Islamic study during this period of human history, when the intellectual evolution had stalled in the rest of Europe was growing, evolving, and breaking new ground in the fields of science, mathematics, astronomy, law, and philosophy within the Muslim world.
By the 1300s the "Ambassadors of Peace" centered around the University of Timbuktu created roving scholastic campuses and religious schools of learning that traveled between the cities of Timbuktu, Gao, and Djénné, helping to serve as a model of peaceful governance throughout an often conflict-riddled tribal region.
At its peak, over 25,000 students attended the University of Timbuktu.
By the beginning of the 1600s with the Moroccan invasions from the north, however, the scholars of Timbuktu began to slowly drift away and study elsewhere. As a result, the city's sacred manuscripts began to fall into disrepair. While Islamic teachings there continued for another 300 years, the biggest decline in scholastic study occurred with the French colonization of present-day Mali in the late 1890s.
Today, Timbuktu still holds the allure of its namesake. But clearly it has drifted to the edges of the desert as a dusty adobe outpost that holds defiantly onto the title of being the gateway to the mystical Sahara.
Down the sand filled alleyways and into mud homes lie the private collections of the sacred manuscripts that date back over some 600 years. The Ahmed Baba Research Center houses the largest collection. Some scholars estimate that there are over 700,000 manuscripts housed throughout collections in Timbuktu.
With the pressures of poverty, a series of droughts, and a tribal Tureg rebellion in Mali that lasted over ten years, the manuscripts continue to disappear into the black market, where they are illegally sold to private and university collections in Europe and the United States. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030527_timbuktu.html
Of course it is the legacy of Timbuktu but you cannot ignore the that all the writings of Timbuktu are Arabic.
So what if they wrote in Arabic, that doesn't take away from the fact that it is the legacy of Timbuktu, not some fellow in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, just because the scripts happen to be Arabic. Caste-mentality doesn't relieve Timbuktu of this legacy, to be given to some psychologically scared Arabs who need to leech off other's works through casteism. You Arabs are like that; steal other's legacy through casteism.
quote:
quote: and little to do Arabic culture.
I disagree. Can you provide any local indigenous timbuktu writings? I have never seen any.
Better question: why are the manuscripts we are talking about located in Timbuktu as opposed to your Arab backyard?
I believe I just educated you on why the scripts used Arabic as a medium, and yet you come back like someone who is reading-challenged, asking me for some "Timbutktu writing". Is English your second language?
quote:
quote: Experimentation on scripts have long been *independently* undertaken in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including western Africa.
Timbuktu writings are in Arabic. You cannot get around that.
Non-sequitur. [Get a dictionary, if you need to find out what that means.]
Ps -- You are reduced to assuming a stuck-on record with an immaterial one-liner that does not advance your theological emotionalism. Caught with your pants down, you were trying to pass off Arabs as agents of teaching Africans how to read and write for the first time, and we know that's bullshit, since the record of scripts of western Africa alone speak for themselves. You attempted to downplay the indisputable fact that the manuscripts are foremost Timbuktu legacy and none other, by saying "oh well, they are written in Arabic", so Arabs who have nothing to do with it, have a claim on this legacy. This is like saying that since Europeans use a modified African script, therefore each and every European accomplishment must be called African culture. Using that logic, well then, Arabs were using African culture that simply found its way back to another corner of Africa.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It is first and foremost the legacy of Timbuktu,
Of course it is the legacy of Timbuktu but you cannot ignore the that all the writings of Timbuktu are Arabic.
quote: and little to do Arabic culture.
I disagree. Can you provide any local indigenous timbuktu writings? I have never seen any.
quote: Experimentation on scripts have long been *independently* undertaken in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including western Africa.
Timbuktu writings are in Arabic. You cannot get around that.
quote: On the other hand, where did the Arabs learn how to speak and write; from Africans. Bet you were not aware of that little bit of history. The only reason western Sudanic complexed embraced widespread use of Arabic, is for the same reason they expediently took on Islam; because the dominating trade network which was the source of their wealth, was with partners who adopted Arabic. Pure and simple, it was a geopolitical calculation.
Present any local indigenous writings of Timbuktu from their vast library. I'd like to see them.
You are not very bright are you? What does the script of the manuscripts have to do with the fact that the blacks scholars of timbuctou produced and taught their own culture and developed their own philosophies, scientific research and medical practices????
People like you are quick to point to "Arabic" culture but will Scream and hollor when the fact comes up that Arabic culture is not Arabic at all but was a ix of many different cultures that without them the Arabs would have remained the desert barbarians they are. I mean Damn every time Africans get some credit people like you will always pop up and add some Eurocentric dogma and remarks. The Arabs got most of their knowledge from the Library at alexandria but I hear no snide remarks that the Greek and Egyptians heavily influenced the Muslims who were in the begining nothing but Barbaric illiterates. I hear nothing of the Jewish influence on the Muslims, as both philosophers and translators??
Beginning in the 12th century, Timbuktu was becoming one of the great centers of learning in the Islamic world. Scholars and students traveled from as far away as Cairo, Baghdad, and elsewhere in Persia to study from the noted manuscripts found in Timbuktu.
If the Arabs were bestoying all of thier culture on the Blacks in Timbuctou why were they travelling TO timbuctou to learn and study from Timbuctou ??
Calligraphers once plied their trade in the desert. Some of the manuscripts uncovered in Timbuktu contain gold lettering, and some are written in the unusual Songhai and Fulfulbe tribal languages. Some are adorned with gilded letters, while others are written in the language of the Tuareg tribes. The contents remain a mystery. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,569560,00.html Are you happy now-Now you can continue to downplay Indiginous African achievement..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The resident Arab simpleton doesn't even know what "Timbuktu culture" is, despite using it in his/her lexicon. All he/she can simplemindedly do, is say "Arabs influenced Timbuktu because the manuscripts just so happen to be written in Arabic". Fact is, if it were not for western African empires and eastern Africa, Islamic faith would have been dead by now.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Of course it is the legacy of Timbuktu but you cannot ignore the that all the writings of Timbuktu are Arabic.
So what if they wrote in Arabic, that doesn't take away from the fact that it is the legacy of Timbuktu, not some fellow in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, just because the scripts happen to be Arabic. Caste-mentality doesn't relieve Timbuktu of this legacy, to be given to some psychologically scared Arabs who need to leech off other's works through casteism. You Arabs are like that; steal other's legacy through casteism.
quote:
quote: and little to do Arabic culture.
I disagree. Can you provide any local indigenous timbuktu writings? I have never seen any.
Better question: why are the manuscripts we are talking about located in Timbuktu as opposed to your Arab backyard?
I believe I just educated you on why the scripts used Arabic as a medium, and yet you come back like someone who is reading-challenged, asking me for some "Timbutktu writing". Is English your second language?
quote:
quote: Experimentation on scripts have long been *independently* undertaken in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including western Africa.
Timbuktu writings are in Arabic. You cannot get around that.
Non-sequitur. [Get a dictionary, if you need to find out what that means.]
Ps -- You are reduced to assuming a stuck-on record with an immaterial one-liner that does not advance your theological emotionalism. Caught with your pants down, you were trying to pass off Arabs as agents of teaching Africans how to read and write for the first time, and we know that's bullshit, since the record of scripts of western Africa alone speak for themselves. You attempted to downplay the indisputable fact that the manuscripts are foremost Timbuktu legacy and none other, by saying "oh well, they are written in Arabic", so Arabs who have nothing to do with it, have a claim on this legacy. This is like saying that since Europeans use a modified African script, therefore each and every European accomplishment must be called African culture. Using that logic, well then, Arabs were using African culture that simply found its way back to another corner of Africa.
You know it makes me wonder. Yesterday I had a conversation with Kolonji about us Evil Afrocentrics always having to "PROVE" that Africa was just as advanced as other civilizations around the world. That we have to keep producing evidence even thought it is all out there and available. It makes me wonder do Europeans have to "PROVE" that the Italian Renaissance was an Indiginous event despite the fact that the Afro/Asian Moors had created, Translated, and provided vast amount of Classical and Phisophical Knowledge in places like Seville, Cordoba, etc. that Europeans flocked to After Christian Reconquista??
Do the Arabs have to "PROVE" the Islamic spread of Knowledge despite the fact that they were Illiterate Desert Nomads that could not even translate the works they get credit from?? Despite the fact that the Koran is a plagerism of the Bible, Torah, and Tenakh??
Do European Classics have to PROVE that the Greeks created Philosophy despite the fact that the history of Greece was constant war and that most of their knowledge came from Egypt and Mesopotamia??
Do Northern Europeans have to PROVE their contributions despite the fact that they were slaves and subjects of Italian Romans who did not consider them to be the same people let alone civilized..??
Yet, when Africa has its moments(and they are very few moments) its always us Evil Afrocentics having to prove that African created their own advanced cultures with out some outsiders besoying the culture on them. I mean Damn I guss the Mailian people were sitting aroung eating dirt with bones in their noses until the Arabs came and bestoyed the Great Pure Arab culture on our ancestors...Thank you Arab man...Peace Be upon you my Brother Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Well, we don't have to prove it to them, but young African minds that grow in places beyond Africa's borders. Let's face it; Africans have little direct control on the mass media outlets of these areas, and so, whatever opportunity for Africans and Africanists arises to teach and spread the word, it is wise to take it. The internet has made this a first step to being possible, as the traditional media outlets of TV in Europe and elsewhere have little control over exchange of ideas between intellectuals on the net, at least not yet...not that they are not trying hard to reverse this trend.
proto-Ge'ez script [questionably called ESA] and Amharic script
Independently invented Arabian scripts?
None. Just Proto-Sinaitic script modifications, and possibly direct developments imported from the Nile Valley, where the oldest examples of Arabic script have been uncovered.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: This was my point:
" While Islamic teachings there continued for another 300 years, the biggest decline in scholastic study occurred with the French colonization of present-day Mali in the late 1890s."
Arabic culture influenced Timbuktu culture.
[QUOTE]
Islamic culture is not and was never attributed to Arabs or the Arabic culture; Islam like Christianity is a religion and not a culture, "Western Sudanic" societies used Islam as a blanket not only to unify the general population who happened to be significantly fragmented and diversified ethnically, linguistically, and via religion. They also used Islam to "emotionally" link themselves to the rest of the world, who at the time were largely muslim or at least were in contact with muslims or Islamic societies. Unlike most Europeans, who were forced upon by others to accept Christianity; West Africans largely adopted Islam into an already ancient and wholly indigenous culture.
Most Muslims arn't Arab or Arabic, but belong to many and varied cultures and idenities.
Also, West Africans largely wrote in other indigenous African languages while using the Arabic script to communicate with each other: languages such as Songhay, Tuareg, Fulani, and Mandé form the majority of the languages written in Mali and other regions in West/Central Africa.
"With the spread of Islam, it came to be used to write many languages of many language families including, at various times, Urdu, Pashto, Baloch, Malay (in Central and SE Asia) Fulfulde-Pular, Hausa, Mandinka (in West Africa), Swahili (in East Africa), Balti, Brahui, Panjabi (in Pakistan), Kashmiri, Sindhi (in India and Pakistan), Arwi (in Sri Lanka), Chinese, Uyghur (in China), Kazakh (in Central Asia), Uzbek (in Central Asia), Kyrgyz (in Central Asia), Azerbaijani (in Iran), Kurdish (in Iraq and Iran), Ottoman Turkish and Spanish (in Western Europe)."
Also, the Arabic script used in West Africa wasn't at all identical to the one used in "Arabnized" North Africa or Southwest Asia... in fact, you can argue, that the script used across mush of West Africa during that time period, due to an intence modification process, wasn't even Arabic but a totally different script used to write predominantely Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharan, Chadic, and southern Berber languages.
"To accommodate the needs of these other languages, new letters and other symbols were added to the original alphabet. This process is known as the Ajami transcription system, which is different from the original Arabic alphabet."
"The term Ajami (Arabic: عجمي), or Ajamiyya (Arabic: عجمية), which comes from the Arabic root for "foreign" or "stranger," has been applied to Arabic-based orthographies used for writing African languages."
West Africans were using a script which stemmed from the original Arabic script, which in turn they used to write in their own indigenous languages. Plus, the ideas and literary accomplishments written down by these various AFRICAN individuals and cultures largely "depicts" a rather indigenous and African train of thought or perspective...also, the fact that these West Africans were able to modify the script on their own, shows their knowledge to write down their ideas prier to Islam.
Arabic culture in Africa, ex. northern Sudanese, can not even be paralled to those found in Southwest Asia, since the dominant culture these African Arabs are practicing were and are significantly more African than Arab. And since West Africa, Timbuktu,and the people living there today are and have never been Arab, but rather exclusively African... you sir, have no reason to try to tie in the culture of West Africa and Mali with that of Saudi Arabia.
Lastly, Arabic culture and those of other Semitic speaking SW Asians has been extremely impacted by Africans, not only through language or genetics, but via way of life; the nomadic culture associted with modern and acient "Arabs" can be easily traced to Africa, i.e. North East/Saharan/Sahel/Sudanic Africa.
Also, most scripts today can be directly or indirectly traced back to the greater Nile Valley amoung the indigenous African population living there.
FYI, most of the "Arabs" who were in direct contact with West Africa, where in fact, Arabnized Africans who adopted certain aspects of Arab culture.
For example, the Moors included people who would have been described as either: Saharan-Sahel West African Berber speakers, coastal North African Berber speakers, West African non-Berber speakers, i.e. Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharan, and Chadic speakers... and to a lesser extent Arabnized coastal North Africans, followed lastly by actual Arabs.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: This was my point:
" While Islamic teachings there continued for another 300 years, the biggest decline in scholastic study occurred with the French colonization of present-day Mali in the late 1890s."
Arabic culture influenced Timbuktu culture.
[QUOTE]
Islamic culture is not and was never attributed to Arabs or the Arabic culture; Islam like Christianity is a religion and not a culture, "Western Sudanic" societies used Islam as a blanket not only to unify the general population who happened to be significantly fragmented and diversified ethnically, linguistically, and via religion. They also used Islam to "emotionally" link themselves to the rest of the world, who at the time were largely muslim or at least were in contact with muslims or Islamic societies. Unlike most Europeans, who were forced upon by others to accept Christianity; West Africans largely adopted Islam into an already ancient and wholly indigenous culture.
Most Muslims arn't Arab or Arabic, but belong to many and varied cultures and idenities.
Also, West Africans largely wrote in other indigenous African languages while using the Arabic script to communicate with each other: languages such as Songhay, Tuareg, Fulani, and Mandé form the majority of the languages written in Mali and other regions in West/Central Africa.
"With the spread of Islam, it came to be used to write many languages of many language families including, at various times, Urdu, Pashto, Baloch, Malay (in Central and SE Asia) Fulfulde-Pular, Hausa, Mandinka (in West Africa), Swahili (in East Africa), Balti, Brahui, Panjabi (in Pakistan), Kashmiri, Sindhi (in India and Pakistan), Arwi (in Sri Lanka), Chinese, Uyghur (in China), Kazakh (in Central Asia), Uzbek (in Central Asia), Kyrgyz (in Central Asia), Azerbaijani (in Iran), Kurdish (in Iraq and Iran), Ottoman Turkish and Spanish (in Western Europe)."
Also, the Arabic script used in West Africa wasn't at all identical to the one used in "Arabnized" North Africa or Southwest Asia... in fact, you can argue, that the script used across mush of West Africa during that time period, due to an intence modification process, wasn't even Arabic but a totally different script used to write predominantely Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharan, Chadic, and southern Berber languages.
"To accommodate the needs of these other languages, new letters and other symbols were added to the original alphabet. This process is known as the Ajami transcription system, which is different from the original Arabic alphabet."
"The term Ajami (Arabic: عجمي), or Ajamiyya (Arabic: عجمية), which comes from the Arabic root for "foreign" or "stranger," has been applied to Arabic-based orthographies used for writing African languages."
West Africans were using a script which stemmed from the original Arabic script, which in turn they used to write in their own indigenous languages. Plus, the ideas and literary accomplishments written down by these various AFRICAN individuals and cultures largely "depicts" a rather indigenous and African train of thought or perspective...also, the fact that these West Africans were able to modify the script on their own, shows their knowledge to write down their ideas prier to Islam.
Arabic culture in Africa, ex. northern Sudanese, can not even be paralled to those found in Southwest Asia, since the dominant culture these African Arabs are practicing were and are significantly more African than Arab. And since West Africa, Timbuktu,and the people living there today are and have never been Arab, but rather exclusively African... you sir, have no reason to try to tie in the culture of West Africa and Mali with that of Saudi Arabia.
Lastly, Arabic culture and those of other Semitic speaking SW Asians has been extremely impacted by Africans, not only through language or genetics, but via way of life; the nomadic culture associted with modern and acient "Arabs" can be easily traced to Africa, i.e. North East/Saharan/Sahel/Sudanic Africa.
Also, most scripts today can be directly or indirectly traced back to the greater Nile Valley amoung the indigenous African population living there.
FYI, most of the "Arabs" who were in direct contact with West Africa, where in fact, Arabnized Africans who adopted certain aspects of Arab culture.
For example, the Moors included people who would have been described as either: Saharan-Sahel West African Berber speakers, coastal North African Berber speakers, West African non-Berber speakers, i.e. Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharan, and Chadic speakers... and to a lesser extent Arabnized coastal North Africans, followed lastly by actual Arabs.
LMAO..The Poor Little Arab..He should go visit a library.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Welcome to our board, Doctoris Scientia! Are you really from Timbuktu?
Yes, originally ... my family belongs to the Sonrai or rather Songhay tribe, we speak Koyra Chiini a dilect confined to Timbuktu and other near by area's. But my grandfather's from Tamanrasset in southern Algeira,he's a Tuareg.
So I quess, this topic is very important to me Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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We could use more level-headed folks here, for a change. Registration after registration has of lately been of trolls; your initial posts seem promising, and if it stays that way, it will have been a breath of fresh air from the "newbie" lot that we have going on here lately, save for few exceptions -- like Brada Anansi.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Well, we don't have to prove it to them, but young African minds that grow in places beyond Africa's borders. Let's face it; Africans have little direct control on the mass media outlets of these areas, and so, whatever opportunity for Africans and Africanists arises to teach and spread the word, it is wise to take it. The internet has made this a first step to being possible, as the traditional media outlets of TV in Europe and elsewhere have little control over exchange of ideas between intellectuals on the net, at least not yet...not that they are not trying hard to reverse this trend.
proto-Ge'ez script [questionably called ESA] and Amharic script
Independently invented Arabian scripts?
None. Just Proto-Sinaitic script modifications, and possibly direct developments imported from the Nile Valley, where the oldest examples of Arabic script have been uncovered.
You are 100 % correct as I told Kolonji the same thing. See I know blacks read what we post and what we bring to the table. This Is why its all worth it in my opinion. I think many people think that E.S is only a small unheard of Forum, trust me its not. I have seen photos and information that originated here on E.S in places like Topix, Mathilda's blog, Stormfront, Bio diversity forum, R.R etc. All using E.S as a base of reference. This is why troll want to come here and drown out the productive threads with B.S. becuase they know how valuable E.S is.
This is why I say to Al-Takruri not to give up on E.S. Yeah we have a troll problem but honestly I don't care they can't really do anything but distort, rant, throw Racial slurs, mis represent the truth, and lie. Besides look like we have some new and fresh Intellegence from Timbuctou itself now.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: We could use more level-headed folks here, for a change. Registration after registration has of lately been of trolls; your initial posts seem promising, and if it stays that way, it will have been a breath of fresh air from the "newbie" lot that we have going on here lately, save for few exceptions -- like Brada Anansi.
100% C/S, I totally agree
I used to post on Topixs, and I'm frequently on EgyptSearch ... but I just registered today; I'll do my best to contribute to this forum.
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Well, in that case, we will be glad to have you around. Consistency builds reputation around here; I've witness people newly arrive with sweet talk, only to reveal their true colors a few posts later. So, I guess time will tell.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: We could use more level-headed folks here, for a change. Registration after registration has of lately been of trolls; your initial posts seem promising, and if it stays that way, it will have been a breath of fresh air from the "newbie" lot that we have going on here lately, save for few exceptions -- like Brada Anansi.
100% C/S, I totally agree
I used to post on Topixs, and I'm frequently on EgyptSearch ... but I just registered today; I'll do my best to contribute to this forum.
LOL, Man I used to post on Topix African American Forum when it was ta least a little bit credible. I used to post with people like MEd. Princess, Dobby, NJ Fashonista, Ashley, Morrison(The Moor lol), Lana, Fly City, Donivan, Irish American, Est. Lnd Girl, Somali Princess, 216 Elite, Mack the Great, Sinajuavi , Johnny, Epictedious etc. Now Topix is a Troll Ridden white v.s Black Racialist wasteland of Ignorance. Damn those were he days..
Anyway welcome to the forum man!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I think people need to give credit where credit is due. Timbuktu is not being robbed of its legacy. However, the Arab is being denied its contribution to that African culture. You cannot produce one document of higher learning to show these Africans had their own home grown writing and sciences? You don't find that strange, considering you do not want to give the Arab his credit at giving that culture its writing and science?
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I think people need to give credit where credit is due.
Timbuktu! done.
quote: Timbuktu is not being robbed of its legacy.
Yes, you are robbing it of its legacy, when trying to take Timbuktu-sourced manuscripts and credit it to Arabs, who have nothing to do with it.
quote: However, the Arab is being denied its contribution to that African culture.
Well, Arabs were traders; somebody would have assumed that role, if Arabs didn't grasp the opportunity. In fact, as Doctoris Scientia already educated you on, north Africans were western Sudanic primary trading partners; it was these coastal northern Africans that embraced Arabic and Islam, which paved way for western Sudanic traders to embrace it, for geopolitical purpose. So, if one looks at that, the "Arab" contribution that you are even looking at, on the account of "Arabic script", seems even more remote.
quote: You cannot produce one document of higher learning to show these Africans had their own home grown writing and sciences? You don't find that strange,
A resounding 'nope'. I tell you what I do find strange, that you are looking at Timbuktu manuscripts and asking people of it is their home-grown property. What kind of IQ do you have to be so dismissive of what is right in front of your two eyes?
quote: considering you do not want to give the Arab his credit at giving that culture its writing and science?
What culture would that be: "Islam" and "Arabic writing"?
Here's where the credit needs to be due: "Islam" would be looked in the same fashion as the extinct dinosaurs if it were not for western Africans and eastern Africans [events in Ethiopia comes to mind]. So the gratitude should be towards Africans, and it should be given by Arabs, not the other way around.
"Arabic script" -- Again, derived from African developed script. In fact, it is not even clear that Arabs came up with the script at all. Like I said, the earliest documentations of the script are in Egyptian record, unless you have something to show otherwise.
"Arabic language" -- It is nothing more than a downstream phylum of Afrasan languages exported from African into the Levant.
Now, you tell us where credit is due? Read up on western Sudanic complex carefully and relieve yourself off the embarrassing ignorance.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I think people need to give credit where credit is due. Timbuktu is not being robbed of its legacy. However, the Arab is being denied its contribution to that African culture. You cannot produce one document of higher learning to show these Africans had their own home grown writing and sciences? You don't find that strange, considering you do not want to give the Arab his credit at giving that culture its writing and science?
Islamic isn't Arabic and Arabic isn't Islamic, Islam like Christianity is a religion which incoporate's various ethnics and cultures via modification. Naturally, the religion goes through a process in order to better fit into that specific society.
The Western Sudan for the most part wasn't in direct contact with any real ethnic Arabs or rather Southwest Asians, but instead stimulted it's economy via revived contacts and links with North Africa; mostly through Berber speaking Africans, and to a lesser extent Arabnized Africans who adopted SOME aspects of the Arabian culture and forumlated these "Arab" traits in order to tie into an indigenous North African society. Therefore, real Arabs were never in contact with the Western Sudan.
Again, the Western Sudanic societies used an indigenous script which stemmed from Arabic in order to politically and culturally unify the peoples habitating the area, and to increase COMMUNICATION between the Sudan and the outside world; who at the time spoke Arabic or were at least aware of it's significance in trade.
"The Ajami script(Arabic: عجمي), or Ajamiyya (Arabic: عجمية), which comes from the Arabic root for "foreign" or "stranger," has been applied to Arabic-based orthographies used for writing African languages."
Islam in Africa , specifically West Africa, isn't parallel to that pracitced in Southwest Asia, since it has been intergrated into an indigenous cultural complex.
Also, the ideas and innovations described in these manuscripts are everything but Arab, these manuscripts stem from earlier more ancient African view points and perspectives: for example, West African history, traditional medicine, traditional music, historic trade routes, and various sciences, i.e. archeoastronomy.
"Their contents are didactic, especially in the subjects of astronomy, music, and botany. More recent manuscripts deal with law, sciences and history (with unique records such as the Tarikh al-Fetash by Mahmoud Kati from the 16th century or the Tarikh al-Sudan by Abderrahman al-Sadi on Sudanic history in the 17th century), religion, trade, etc."
"The collection of ancient manuscripts at the University of Sankore and other sites around Timbuktu document the magnificence of the institution, as well as the city itself, while enabling scholars to reconstruct the past in fairly intimate detail. Dating from the 16th to the 18th centuries, these manuscripts cover every aspect of human endeavor and are indicative of the high level of civilization attained by West Africans at the time. In testament to the glory of Timbuktu, for example, a West African Islamic proverb states that "Salt comes from the north, gold from the south, but the word of God and the treasures of wisdom come from Timbuktu."
"The Kouroukan Fouga or Kurukan Fuga was the constitution of the Mali Empire (1235-1645). It formally established the federation of Mandinka clans under one government, outlined how it would operate and established the laws which the people would live by. Mansa (Emperor) Sundiata Keita presented the document at a plain near the town of Ka-ba (present day Kangaba), and it has survived through oral tradition passed down by generations of djeli or griots. The djeli have preserved much of the history of the Mali Empire including its kings, battles and system of government."
"These libraries are considered part of the "African Ink Road" that stretched from West Africa connecting North Africa and East Africa"
^These were African ideas
Arab culture in the end, and that of all Semitic speakers trace's back to Africa and her peoples. And as Explorer stated previousely, the Arabic script was most likely adopted by Arabs via Egypt.
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Well, Arabs were traders; somebody would have assumed that role, if Arabs didn't grasp the opportunity. In fact, as Doctoris Scientia already educated you on, north Africans were western Sudanic primary trading partners;
At a time they were able to bypass Morocco and trade with Egypt. However for the entire history I would think the main trading partners of the "Western Sudan" would be other "Sudanese". The Tuaregs, of course, acted as the henchmen of the "Sudan" and fought in their armies and were the agents carrying on Trans-Saharan trade.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The only reason western Sudanic complexed embraced widespread use of Arabic, is for the same reason they expediently took on Islam; because the dominating trade network which was the source of their wealth, was with partners who adopted Arabic.
This is true but it should be pointed out that other languages were used. As late as the 19th century Hausa was a world language. Hausa might not be "West Africa" but there were mosques in cities in Dahomey and other empires I think allot of this might be due to contact with Hausa. These sorts of long distance contacts shows that "North Africans" were a great deal more dependent on Trans-Saharan trade than the "Sudanese" were.
In the Chad group the Hausa has spread farthest and acquired most usefulness. The vernacular of a numerous people, it offers a valuable medium of communication through vast districts on both sides of the Binwe and the Niger. In extent of use it surpasses all other languages in inner Africa, serving not only as the mother=tongue of millions but as a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa. Hausa is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It stands among the world's imperial languages, magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure, enjoying a harmony in the forms of its words and a symphonic symmetry that few tongues can equal, and assured of prolonged existence and vast expansion. It is the Latin of Central Sudan.
Books like "Timbuktu the Mysterious" have a great deal of colonial propaganda but they also have good information
quote:It follows therefore that the direct relation with Egypt must have been instituted prior to the appearance of Islamism. The strength of the connection, in spite of the enormous distance which separates the valley of the Nile from that of the Niger, plainly indicates a direct relation. The current that flowed so persistently and strongly between Egypt and the Sudan up to the sixteenth century represents something more than a merely commercial interest; it reveals the route of an exodus. The influence and commerce of Morocco and Algeria in the Sudan (countries comparatively near) were for a long time overpowered by distant Egypt. We find undeniable proofs of this among the ancient geographers. Ibn Batouta, a Moor, who visited the countries of the Niger in 1352, relates that at Oualata ' the greater part of the inhabitants wore the beautiful costumes of Egypt.' Now Oualata is only two months' journey distant from Morocco, while the valley of the Nile is at a distance of at least eight months. Again, to destroy the powerful and traditional bias of Egypt towards the Niger and establish the preponderance of the northern countries of Africa would require no less than a Moorish occupation in 1592.
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841
quote:"From Muli (says Ibn Batutah) the river descends to Yufi (Nufi), one of the greatest kingdoms of Negroland, but to which white men cannot penetrate; and thence it flows to Nubia." It would appear, from this, that the superiority now enjoyed by the people of Nufi in arts and industry, was already acknowledged in the fourteenth century. It is manifest also that the system of the native geographers which converts the Chad da into a continuation of the Kowara, by which the waters of this great river are carried across Bornii to the Nile of Egypt, is of some antiquity. Ibn Batutah believed that the great river below Muli flowed some distance to the south or south-east before it turned eastwards to Nubia. In speaking of Kulwa (Kilwa, or Quiloa), on the eastern coast of Africa, he uses these words:—" A merchant there told me, that the town of Sofalah is half a month's journey from Kulwa, and one month from Yufi in the country of the Limiyin, and that gold is brought from Yufi to Sofalah."" The boldness here evinced in bringing together and joining in commerce countries far asunder, is constantly exhibited in the geographical speculations of an early or ill-informed age. Distances are then enlarged as expediency requires; hypothesis leaps over the vacant spaces, and forcibly stretches the known portions in the opposite sides of a continent till they meet in the centre. Illustrations of this truth may be found in all ages. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Abyssinia, Congo, and Monomotapa were all supposed to meet together. One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.1" The reasoning which led to this statement was, in its nature, exactly the same as that from which the Arabs inferred an intercourse between Sofalah and Yufi.
On page 94 we see this footnote
quote:152 In like manner the supposed Christian King named Ogane', of whom the early Portuguese navigators received intelligence at Benin, was at once assumed to be the King of Abyssinia. The fable of an intercourse between Abyssinia and Western Africa has been gravely repeated by a recent writer (M'Queen's Survey of Africa, p. 5). Fernandez de Enciso (Suma de Geografia, 1518) says, that in the Bight of Benin are the Blacks who trade with Libya and Meroe. Lalande (Memoires de Paris, 1795, p. 15) has collected with equal industry and credulity the stories of an overland commerce between the eastern and western coasts of Africa.
"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"
quote:In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:
We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you. Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes".We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
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Welcome Doctoris Scientia what was broken can be repaired I hope you join us in the repairing work...thanks for the shout-out bru Explorer.
Muhammed Abed
quote:You cannot produce one document of higher learning to show these Africans had their own home grown writing and sciences? You don't find that strange, considering you do not want to give the Arab his credit at giving that culture its writing and science?
Well they used a script developed in Arabia and they traded in books near and far but that only shows that they were a cosmopolitan civilization with wide connections as expected..but if you are suggesting that they did not observed the natural world around them and did not record them in a different manner then you would be mistaken. As an example the script would make for wider distribution of local pre-Islamic knowledge..Dogan star maps and that these folks were within range of the University City But the much of the science on higher came from Kemet and other civilization both within and outside Africa...Arabic was the glue that link various peoples together but not all learning and ideas came from Arabia... much the same way as latin/Roman script which ultimately came Africa.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: But the much of the science on higher came from Kemet and other civilization both within and outside Africa...Arabic was the glue that link various peoples together but not all learning and ideas came from Arabia... much the same way as latin/Roman script which ultimately came Africa.
Yes Egypt was part of an African intellectual tradition but I see not justification for saying "Kemet" and "other civilizations". Wouldn't it make more sense to say that Timbuktu was simply part of this intellectual tradition rather than saying they got most of their ideas from "other Civilizations"? See bellow about the ancient spread of knowledge and ideas. Concerning "Bantu" in Africa Bentley "credits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk" not to any one people
quote:The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar welNnigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west
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Mark! my post on the Dogan would include the folks in and about Timbuct-tu after-all that's what their Pre-Islamic civilization would probably looked like..and the good folks at Timbuct-tu did go out of their way to gather knowledge near and far.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: But the much of the science on higher came from Kemet and other civilization both within and outside Africa...
Its just the way you worded it
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Again, the Western Sudanic societies used an indigenous script which stemmed from Arabic in order to politically and culturally unify the peoples habitating the area, and to increase COMMUNICATION between the Sudan and the outside world; who at the time spoke Arabic or were at least aware of it's significance in trade.
...
Islam in Africa , specifically West Africa, isn't parallel to that pracitced in Southwest Asia, since it has been intergrated into an indigenous cultural complex.
Also, the ideas and innovations described in these manuscripts are everything but Arab, these manuscripts stem from earlier more ancient African view points and perspectives: for example, West African history, traditional medicine, traditional music, historic trade routes, and various sciences, i.e. archeoastronomy.
"Their contents are didactic, especially in the subjects of astronomy, music, and botany. More recent manuscripts deal with law, sciences and history (with unique records such as the Tarikh al-Fetash by Mahmoud Kati from the 16th century or the Tarikh al-Sudan by Abderrahman al-Sadi on Sudanic history in the 17th century), religion, trade, etc."
"The collection of ancient manuscripts at the University of Sankore and other sites around Timbuktu document the magnificence of the institution, as well as the city itself, while enabling scholars to reconstruct the past in fairly intimate detail. Dating from the 16th to the 18th centuries, these manuscripts cover every aspect of human endeavor and are indicative of the high level of civilization attained by West Africans at the time. In testament to the glory of Timbuktu, for example, a West African Islamic proverb states that "Salt comes from the north, gold from the south, but the word of God and the treasures of wisdom come from Timbuktu."
"The Kouroukan Fouga or Kurukan Fuga was the constitution of the Mali Empire (1235-1645). It formally established the federation of Mandinka clans under one government, outlined how it would operate and established the laws which the people would live by. Mansa (Emperor) Sundiata Keita presented the document at a plain near the town of Ka-ba (present day Kangaba), and it has survived through oral tradition passed down by generations of djeli or griots. The djeli have preserved much of the history of the Mali Empire including its kings, battles and system of government."
"These libraries are considered part of the "African Ink Road" that stretched from West Africa connecting North Africa and East Africa"
^These were African ideas
Arab culture in the end, and that of all Semitic speakers trace's back to Africa and her peoples. And as Explorer stated previousely, the Arabic script was most likely adopted by Arabs via Egypt.
Again, one of the most sensible follow-ups since my hiatus from this thread.
Timbuktu became a learning center not just for locals and their neighbor, but for people from the north eastern African corner, southern Europe and the so-called "Near East", because the complex first had to have earned the reputation of greatness and human creativity. People don't make learning centers in cultural backwaters. Abed wants to take this element away from Timbuktu by placing credit to Arabs, who have virtually nothing to do with the Western Sudanic empire's accomplishment. It became a learning center, precisely because Timbuktu had developed a stronghome-grown base of intelligentia, which was enriched further with scholars therein exploring ideas and exchanging ideas from and with other parts of both Arab-speaking and non-Arab speaking world. Remember, international scholars came to this learning center not as Abed says, to teach locals how to read and write, which was already in place at any case, but to learn themselves -- i.e. acquire knowledge themselves, from Timbuktu's knowledge base, while leaving some of their ideas behind as souvenirs.
Abed also wants to overlook something that both myself and Doc Scientia have noted: The indigenous refinements of the Arabic script that used as a basis, yet another refinement that originates in the Maghreb, not Arabia. By implicating Arabs, Abed is ignoring this dynamic component of the script used in the western Sudanic complex. And it follows from this, he/she is ignoring the true nature and reasons of how Arabic script became the preferred medium. Had the coastal northwest Africans been using another script, guess what? Timbuktu would have likely also used some other script rather than Arabic derivatives. So to suggest that without Arabic script, that the place would not have attained high learning and literacy, and a reputation as a learning center, is downright childish-silly and nonsensical. Arabic script derivatives of Maghrebian origin served as lingua franca, as Doc Scientia correctly observes, facilitating effective trade relationship between the discrete groups of coastal northwest Africans, Saharan and Sahelian nomadic middle men and the western Sudan, and even western Sudan intra-regionally. To paint this as some simple model of Arabs [who were not even the major players here in the political and trade network] coming in and teaching people to read and write, again is just plainly silly, if not stupid. The Western Sudanic folks took on the northern African versions of Arabic on their own terms; not some foreigners coming in and teaching some uncultured people how to read and write, as Abed will have one believe. Proof of this is from the fact that there were grand empires in the region even before Islam was embraced by any sections of the society, or even Arabic-script was embraced!
As for the scripts themselves, as one website puts it:
The Western style, influenced by the Hijazi script as used in North Africa, evolved into the script known as Maghribi, or North African, beginning in the 11th century in North Africa, Spain, and Sicily. Western style script still is used in North Africa. From North Africa [NOT Arabia], this script crossed the Sahara Desert, came to Timbuktu, and spread throughout West Africa where scholars and scribes further developed the script. An exhibit of pages from these manuscripts is available at:
The most commonly used form of script in these Timbuktu manuscripts is Saharan, named for the desert that borders the city. Another form of Arabic script used in Timbuktu is Sudani, which refers to the belt of open farmlands that extends from East Africa to the lands just south of Timbuktu in West Africa. The third West African form of Arabic writing is Suqi–literally the market script. Suqi letters are noticeably square compared to the more elongated forms of Maghribi, Sudani, and Saharan.
Abed, tell me: Where can I find these named scripts in Arabia or the "Middle East", eh?
The above just goes to show how expediency was the driving factor for adoption of Arabic script; it has nothing to do with locals not having an intelligentia or science, and hence, would need Arabs to introduce something like that to them for the first time. It seems that they had various scripts that were locally developed for different strategic reasons -- i.e. a matter of expediency. These scripts are as noted, yet distinct from the northern African [again, not Arabian] versions that form their basis. Simplistic reasoning, based on linguistic casteism, does not offer material support in saying the Timbuktu's legacy belongs to any other but Timbuktu.
On some closing points here, the site also notes:
Other individuals traveled to Timbuktu to acquire knowledge. It was a city famous for the education of important scholars whose reputations were pan-Islamic. Timbuktu’s most famous and long lasting contribution to Islamic–and world–civilization is its scholarship and the books that were written and copied there beginning from at least the 14th century. The brilliance of the University of Timbuktu was without equal in all of sub-Saharan Africa and was known throughout the Islamic world...
The texts and documents included in Islamic Manuscripts from Mali are the products of a tradition of book production reaching back almost 1,000 years. Although this practice is anchored in the methods of Islamic book production, it possesses features particular to West Africa. The bindings of manuscripts from Timbuktu, and West Africa in general, are unique in the Islamic world. Their decoration with incised markings is in a style characteristic of the area. Further, pages are not attached in any way to the binding–a practice different from all other Islamic manuscripts....
Tell me Abed, where can we find such book production practices anywhere in the Arab world, save for the Western Sudan?
Continuing...
While many books were authored and copied in Timbuktu [Take note: not just "copied", but "authored"], its resident scholars also imported books from other parts of the Islamic world. Therefore, manuscripts found in Timbuktu are often written in Naskh, the most common book hand found in Arabic manuscripts from Egypt, Syria, and neighboring lands. Naskh developed from the Eastern style of the original Kufic script.
These works, whose subjects cover every topic of human endeavor, are indicative of the high level of civilization attained by West Africans during the Middle Ages and early modern period. They are also an important element of the culture of Mali, and West Africa in general, which survived the colonial experience. - Link
Indeed; Timbuktu as a learning center is testament to the greatness of Timbuktu, not the greatest of Arabia, and if one had to use Abed's logic, then since resident [as noted above] scholars exchanged ideas with folks from afar, credit will have to be parceled out to not only "Arabs", but Jews, Maghrebians, Egyptians, Persians, southern Europeans, neighboring western Africans, etc, of the time. Of course, that's not what Timbuktu's reputation as a learning center highlights; rather it highlights its own home-grown achievement in attaining that global recognition; Timbuktu earned this reputation, as any other location would. It wasn't charity from Arabian Arabs, as Abed's folklore would have one believe.
Worth repeating:
Timbuktu’s most famous and long lasting contribution to Islamic–and world–civilization...
Hear, "Timbuktu's", not "Arabs" contribution to the "Islamic-and world-civilization", and not just Western Sudan, is
its scholarship and the books that were written and copied there beginning from at least the 14th century. The brilliance of the University of Timbuktu was without equal in all of sub-Saharan Africa and was known throughout the Islamic world.
Nuff said.
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