posted
To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.
The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet pp. 21-22
In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427
Anyone have anymore? Al-takruri?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
What makes the author of the first quote think that any blacks in ancient Carthage had to be slaves?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What makes the author of the first quote think that any blacks in ancient Carthage had to be slaves?
he doesn't think there were many black slaves in Carthage, if any, because there's no proof the slave trade was important to Carthaginians, not to mention the fact they had other places to acquire slaves other than inner Africa.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Seems to me Carthage would resemble Al-Andalus, a Mix of many different people:
Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.
quote: Originally posted by Charlie Bass: In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare
The truth is, as long as they keep using the word ''negroid'' they can easily exclude the elongated African types and we will never know how large the African componant was.
posted
The facts is both the incoming Phoenicians and the locals had that Afro/Asiatic mix culturally and biologically for they the Phoenicians were under the thumb of the Nile valley folks for centuries and ultimately that's where they came from in the first place. that they mixed with their Asiatic neighbors is no surprise.. the folks living to the north west of Kemet seems to have both Eurasian and African population mix. Why??...because Kemitic paintings shows very lite -skinned Temamhu as well as dark- skinned Tehennau and we know from dna that by their mothers many North West Africans carry Eurasian mtdna and by their fathers East African ptdna ...both speak an African language and practice an African culture.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.
The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet pp. 21-22
In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427
Anyone have anymore? Al-takruri?
Hmm,
Well we know Carthage had many Semitic speakers, the Phonecians, but it was a city built on African soil, there was also a heavy mixed population, which the Greeks themselves called Liby-Phonecians. Roman historian Diodorus Siculus nevertheless mentions 4 different 'races' to make up Carthage- Phonecians, native North Africans, so-called Libyans, who made up the bulk of the populations and provided the hardcore heavy infantry, the mixed Liby-Phonecians, and then the nomadic Numidians who provided superb light cavalry forces.
Numidian horseman- artist conception by war gamer on wildfiregames.com
Historian Gregory Daly in his 2002 (Cannae: the experience of battle in the Second Punic War, pg 92) calls the Numidians "of Berber stock, possbily with some Negro admixture." Berbers though are a language category not a racial one and Berbers have always included a range of types including "Negroes". Nevertheless at least Daly seems to partially recognize that these ancient fighting men were a diverse lot:
""whenever Polybius mentions Libyans he specifically means the native subjects of Carthage, rather than the Numidians and Moors to the west of the city (Law, 1978, p.129). These groups, nowadays described as Libyco-Berbers (Desanges, 1981, p. 428), appear to have been essentially the same ethnic background- Berber stock, possibly with some Negro admixture.." pg 85, 92
As noted on a few older ES threads, remains deemed to be "Negroid" are not uncommon on Carthagian burial grounds, and so-called "Negroid" variant is only one of a variety of 'black African' variants. Elongated Africans are another. Short, light-skinned San are yet another.
quotes: -----------------------------
Keita in his important 1990, Studies of ancient crania in Norther Africa notes:
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
"Pittard (1924) notes with surprise the race of the remains found in the Sarcophagus of the Priestess of’ Tanit in Carthage, noting them to be Negroid (see also Bertholon and Chantre, 1913)."Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
One thing sometimes folks often used the word Semitic to mean an olive complexion hooked nosed type of person from the so-called Middle of the East..forgetting that they are more Semitic speakers within that without Africa and they originated there in Horn in the first place.
Zarahan
quote:Well we know Carthage had many Semitic speakers, the Phonecians, but it was a city built on African soil, there was also a heavy mixed population, which the Greeks themselves called Liby-Phonecians. Roman historian Diodorus Siculus nevertheless mentions 4 different 'races' to make up Carthage- Phonecians, native North Africans, so-called Libyans, who made up the bulk of the populations and provided the hardcore heavy infantry, the mixed Liby-Phonecians, and then the nomadic Numidians who provided superb light cavalry forces.
posted
Bovill dates to over 50 years ago, so of course the mindset that black would equal slave. Though not as prevalent anymore that idea is still very much alive.
Now the second source, UNESCO, is a little bit better. Get the unabridged second volume and read the proto Berber chapter.
Not that truthful looks into the indigenous blacks of northernmost Africa weren't out before Desanges. Remember it's been presented here many times before about them and from scholarship a century old.
Use YAHOO search. GOOGLE hides too much of our good stuff posted here over the years.
Tell all something else. If one pays attention to all this Berber, Semitic, and Negro(id) talk as valid physical anthropology one ain't gonna get nowhere understanding indigenous super-Atlas / pre-desert North Africans as far as their physical types in the given time frame.
Berber and Semitic are languages. If one thinks for a moment that a pitiful handful of Poeni colonizers can represent the vast population of Carthage from 650 BCE onward there's nothing more needs said.
Negro(id) is just as stupid. Negroid means like a Negro. But what is a Negro? You're corraled in a very limited perspective invented to restrict authenticity of blackness to a miniscule feature set. Notice their scholarship will use the phrase "black but not negro." Yet where do they use "white but not blanco."
Use these terms and you've already lost the ken.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What makes the author of the first quote think that any blacks in ancient Carthage had to be slaves?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Originally posted by Evergreen 11 June, 2009 09:13 PM :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
Nicholas Márquez-Grant*
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
posted
Originally posted by Evergreen 11 June, 2009 09:16 PM :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
Nicholas Márquez-Grant*
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
posted
Originally posted by Evergreen 11 June, 2009 09:27 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
Nicholas Márquez-Grant*
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
posted
Originally posted by Evergreen 11 June, 2009 09:32 PM :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
Nicholas Márquez-Grant*
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
posted
The people the Poeni encountered on the land they would later build carthage were the Aourigha. What little I have on them is in this thread on the word Africa's etymology.
posted
Thanks AlTakruri,sorry Iam have some trouble downloading the pdf.(don't know why)
And this makes a lot of sense Thenilevalley;AlTakruri
quote:Before the Romans had their word Afrika, the Greeks had their word Aphrike, and before that the Imazighen had their Afrigha tribe. The difference is that the Greek and Roman words are not native to either language whereas Afrigha is from a Tamazight root, F-R-GH. There's no need trying to invent a Latin word AFR + ICA when it's known that "Africa" is not an original Latin word but borrowed from the Greek Aphrike -- which only use in Greek was for "Africa" (the Afrigha being the people who the K*na`ani paid to rent the land where they founded the new city Qeret Hhaddashat).
Terence the Afer came immediately to mine,as not just a random North African but as a member of an actual ethnic group.
And not to diverge too far but what is that besides the hunter? that looks like a pine-apple? Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
A little more on word association. What comes to mind when one reads or hears the word Mediterranean?
Greece? Italy? Maybe Monaco and Spain?
Well the shorelines of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, and the north of Morocco are all Mediterranean too.
Hence when reading of Mediterraneans in Africa the image that comes to mind should not be of a Greek or Italian phenotype especially when dealing with ancient and pre-historic eras.
I'd also like to add that when the quoted writer implies sub-Saharans (though admitting problems associated with Fordisc) again we're facing those ingrained ideas and imaginary boundaries for the presence of certain phenotypes.
From pre-history to at least the 4th century of our era, Graeco-Latin writers noted blacks, some of whom they called Ethiopian, in the region south of the Atlas and north of the Sahara.
Strabo even mentions them displacing littoral populations.
quote:"that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board."
Geography 1.2.26
Yet all we ever hear of is blacks being pushed southward.
So when Márquez-Grant says that some individuals are sub-Saharan its a denial of indigenous supra-Saharans unless they fit the stilted mold of perceived "Berber" and Mediterranean phenotypes. It's a denial of the autochtonous blacks of northernmost Africa.
When the Sahara began its last drying phase all the blacks in it didn't move either south or east, some moved to the north and some moved to the west.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen 11 June, 2009 09:32 PM: THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
Nicholas Márquez-Grant*
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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