posted
In my topic "Backward tribal self-view in the Arab world", AswaniAswad told me this:
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Mazigh u are claiming lineage with Idriss or what because im not claiming Idriss as being the father of Tribe or Sect but the Mufti of Sufism in North AFrica and Yes Morrocco is the base for it.
Berbers have nothing to do but become converts of which they were never Muslims to begin with.
Idriss was not a berber and the Berbers wear Islam Very Lightly so I dont think they Had any High Positions in the Islamic World mainly footsoldiers they had no Power in the islamic Rule over parts of Europe.
He himself is Arabized, and he should know more about the Berbers since they live also in Egypt as autochtones in Siwa. They even ruled Egypt during two centuries. But what do the Egyptians know about the Berbers? After the battle (I mean football match) between the Egyptians and the Algerians the Egyptians on internet began to design flags of Egypt as "Pharaohs" and the algerians as "Berbers". But they lost the match! and the war began...
Some journalists on the public channels said that the "Amazighs" are called barbars because they're barbarians and have no civilization. One digital newspapers reported that according to an egyptian scholar the name "amazigh" is a latin word meaning "barbarians". Even more, one singer signed "oh Amazigh oh the savage ones...". When an Egyptian Amazigh activist complained them, the "wise" Egyptians said it is nothing "we shouldn't give attention to such singers"... It is in fact an approvement of his behavior, while the Imazighen are part of the Egyptians.
When I read for the Egyptian scholars writing about the Berbers, I read such amazing statements: "Like the primitive people the Ancient Libyans had earrings!!", or "The Berbers believed in a false prophet because they're naive...". Zahi Hawass himself writes on Siwa as an Ancient Egyptian history, and in one of his articles, he claimed that Egypt (Egyptian nationalist call it "Mother of the world") influenced all its visitors, but was never influenced by them!!! This nationalism blinded him to see that Egypt is entirely Arabized and lost its language and ...
This is not surprising to me, because the pan-arab nationalist in the Arab world believe that the Arabs are the unthroned nation who failed to rule the world because the westers consipracy.
As example, we read in other countries that the emperial westerners falsified the history of arabs in order to divide their power, (divide and rule). You could debate it with them, but when you read that they consider ancient egyptian language and ... as ancient arab languages, you should best ignore them (Awlaadberry believe in this too).
Aswaniaswad is not an exception for the egyptian view on the Berbers and kurds. When he tells me what he think of the Berbers "the Berbers wear Islam Very Lightly" he doesn't see it positive, how radical how better in their hot speeches. Laicism is a weakness to them. And when he tells me this "so I dont think they Had any High Positions in the Islamic World .." He mirros fairly what he believes.
The public education and the Arab-nationalist propagation didn't tell him that Egypt never could rule itself after the Ancient Libyans ruled them, and were parts of the Turkic world during many centuries, because the Egyptians or other arabized peoples and brainwashed ones believe they colonized Egypt or their own countries. So the modern Egyptians are great because "they built the most brillant civilization ever" and because they "colonized Egypt".
But, they forgot to tell them that the Berbers ruled themselves after a very short periode, and founded their own indpendent countries, and were for centuries one of the most important players in North Africa western Europe and middeteranea sea. more unlikely the puclic education wouldn't tell him that the Berber cavalries invaded Egypt and many names in Egypt are related to Berbers who founed the Fatimide dynasty: "The Fatimide Caliphate was an offshoot of the Ismailians, a transcendental sect of the Shiea, or Alyite, faith. It arose from the Berbers of North Africa adopting a " Mehdy," who fled from Arabia in the beginning of the tenth century".
"No important rule in Islamic europe"?! Nonsense, The first cavelries who conquered Islamic Europe were Berbers (Tarik after whome Gibraltar is named, Tarif after whome Tarifa is name, and even Moorish spain is named after the Berber Moors), and these are the Berber Empires in North Africa and Islamic Europe: http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_7394.html
Of course, the Egyptians learnt something about the almoravids and almohades, but they label it only as "islamic", while the ethnic attribition is exclusive to the "Arabs". They make the students believe that the Arab dominancy in North africa is a continious domination of the Umayyads who ruled less than 50 years in parts on North Africa, and they never told them that the Berber freed themselves with the Great Berber revolt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt
And if it must be said, they screw that they were mislead and damned by god. They believe they're the conquerors of their own countries and even more they are the descendants of the sherifian arabs (noble or sacred arabs).
posted
Mazie, what matter does it make if the Berbers did not have high positions in Islam?? The Berber history does not begin with Islam nor does African History begin with Islam.
Also the Berbers did play a key Role in Moorish Spain. Was not Abd Rahman not half Berber, and what about the Tafia Kings etc.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
It is true that the history of the Berbers didn't begin with islam, but it is an important part of their history.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I find it funny that elements of coastal North African populations bestow upon themselves this false-sense of superiority over folks "south of the Sahara", yet it is coastal northern Africans who name their ethnic identity after their invaders. You hear people from the Maghreb to Egypt and Sudan call themselves Arabs. Egypt for the most part, has even lost its original language. Yet these people see it fit to look down on folks who still have their languages and native identities intact.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Coastal North Africans, Berbers or otherwise, know full well that their a large part of their ancestry lies outside of Africa. But the GAME they play is trying to claim an ancient aboriginal African identity that is based around their foreign ancestry. Most of this comes from Europeans and their colonial discourse over the last 200 years. Therefore, the Berbers are always trotted out in European discourse as 10000 year old Africans, when there is no evidence of any Berber languages being spoken that many years ago. Nor is there any evidence that Berber languages originated in coastal North Africa.
Prior to that, the Islamic world of North Africa under the Turks was part of a larger Empire spanning the Mediterranean, Africa and Asia allowing for various ethnic groups to mix and mingle. There was no doubt that there were mixed populations resulting from these interactions.
And before that there was the early Islamic conquests, which again introduced an Eastern Nomadic element into the population on top of an already mixed Roman and Hispanic element along with the more aboriginal African population.
Then there was the Roman empire of North Africa which also was multi-ethnic and spanned multiple continents. This too allowed for travel and interaction among various ethnic groups.
Before the Romans there were the Carthaginians who were known to have a strong relationship with both the Levant via the Phoenicians and Europe in places like Spain and elsewhere. This too allowed for intermarriage among populations.
Prior to that was the age of the various ancient Libyan groups who were known by the Egyptians and others. Libyans have always been identified as the tall dark "mediterranean" type African, whose hair was more like those of India than the tight curly hair of other parts of Africa. Amongst these true aboriginal types were the migrants from the Sea or Sea peoples who we know of from the Egyptian records.
The "Arabs" of North Africa and the Berbers know they are mixed to some degree, even the dark skinned ones know it. The Arab identification is more of a cultural assimilation more so than a description of physical ancestry. But for the Berbers, the issue is more tricky as they try to carve out an identity for themselves separate from the Arabs. Unfortunately the historical component and much of the modern focus of this identity is based in the hands and minds of European folk. And it is from this element that you get the effort to put the word Berber into a historical context that does not exist. Firstly, they purposely distort the true meaning of Berber. So no longer is it a language group and culture but something more generalized. Then they take it and try to make it exclusive to coastal North Africans who have large amounts of non African ancestry. Then they take this whole concoction and try to give it an ancient pedigree by trying to tie it to populations and remains from many thousands of years ago. But at the same time, it tries to downplay and ignore the important events of migration and movements from within Africa through the Sahara, by creating this fake island of "historic" Berber identity that is thousands of years old with no ties to the rest of Africa. And of course the key to this island is the non African ancestry of the individuals in it since they are "on the coast" and therefore open to migrations from elsewhere. The contradiction in trying to call this nonsensical assemblage African is obvious. This is the nonsense that one runs into when it comes to Berber identity.
But of course, one should not be trying to use the net and the fact that almost anyone can post whatever they want to base their knowledge on. The truth is almost never going to come from this.
posted
[Excuse my subjectivity for the moment, these miserable bastards are at odds with all the components of their being; Africa's blacks, southern Europeans, and Arabs. All their parent components should be wary and deal with them before they are dealt with by them (as the old joke goes). OK, sorry, just needed to add a lil levity.]
If the activist cease claim as aboriginal North Africans then they become settler colonists just like the Arabs and Europeans.
But because Kabylies and Riffians are so vocal and forefront the activism, and, they are for the most part white, they project whiteness far into the past of North Africa from the littoral to the Sahara and even beyond as preponderant, if not sole, element.
quote: some algerian berberists , who , in an attempt to differenciate themselves from the so-called Arabs (in reality mostly arabized berbers), try to associate themselves with europeans and invent imaginary historical and genetic links with the European peoples.
posted
This topic was about the arab world, now i should start a topic on the backwardness among the blackcentric people. The first one is angry because the Berbers claim an ancienity in Africa as indigenous peopel, and the other is upset because they claim an European origin. But both of them, believe they're in harmony, because they are defending their rot blackcentric ideas....
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
If I would label myself, I would label it as "anti-blackcentrists". For the second time, don't be personal.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Look who's talking, the guy who didn't critique what I wrote but just talked about me. My my my. What a projectionist as well as whitecentric you are.
You got personal because not one word of what I wrote is inaccurate in the slightest.
1). Having been long term residents your people are either indigenees or settler colonists.
2). Kabyles and Riffians are at the forefront of the movement.
3). Kabyles and Riffians are white for the most part.
4). Activist writings on NA history say NA was always white.
5). Kabyles and Riffians are populous.
6). Kabylia and the Rif are small areas as shown on the map.
Now tell me how those objective facts are "rot blackcentric ideas."
You my boy are the upset one who is getting personal.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: don't be personal.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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