Hate to revisit this thorny issue but?? this is bull,my opinion they should be able to adopt their views not withstanding matter of fact they would be no different from most of our parents.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
In my opinion- I can imagine alot of outcomes in where being raised in such a homophobic environment could harm a child and the negative ways it could influence them.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Calabooz I am willing to bet that most parents especially ol school parents hold such views but still loved their gay kids, as long as they are not hateful or abusive their views are their views let em be..or at the most don't allow them to knowingly adopt gay kids.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Perhaps. However the opposite outcome is equally likely, if not more so. Based on the would-be foster parents response, they literally think being gay is a sin and punishable by hell. Not that I totally agree, but I understand the decision.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Calabooz I am willing to bet that most parents especially ol school parents hold such views but still loved their gay kids, as long as they are not hateful or abusive their views are their views let em be..or at the most don't allow them to knowingly adopt gay kids.
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ...a sin and punishable by hell.
Which makes them no different from Nazis and therefore the reason why they SHOULDN'T be allowed to foster children.
If they want to damage children with disgusting evangelical brainwashing, they should do it to their own unfortunate children.
Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^I see your point. Here is what they had to say about their beliefs:
quote:We have been excluded because we have moral opinions based on our faith, and we feel sidelined because we are Christians with normal, mainstream, Christian views on sexual ethics," added Johns. "We are prepared to love and accept any child. All we were not willing to do was to tell a small child that the practice of homosexuality was a good thing.
Now, they say they have "mainstream" christian beliefs on sexual ethiccs. Then they say that they *would* love any child, however, what if that child ended up being homosexual? I suppose they might stick up to their promise of loving any child, however they would not tell that child that homosexuality is ok, i.e., they are not ok if they practice homosexuality. This may lead to several things:
Child may end up hating themselves to the extent where they have thought of suicide
Child may grow up thinking that their attractions are wrong, and then may stay "in the closet" for a long period of time resulting in some negative effects
Child may grow up to be just as homophobic as the foster parents, which society really doesn't need
Now, just what are "mainstream and normal" Christian beliefs? They are as follows"
quote:Then there is homosexuality which likewise is condemned in Scripture. The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9; 10). Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: "And such were some of you: But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.
Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.
I think that gives a pretty good idea on the "mainstream" christian beliefs. So, I do agree with you Booki, they should not be allowed children on the basis of their "normal mainstream" christian beliefs.
quote:Which makes them no different from Nazis and therefore the reason why they SHOULDN'T be allowed to foster children.
If they want to damage children with disgusting evangelical brainwashing, they should do it to their own unfortunate children.
posted
Oh wayt a minute -- so all this was about is their refusal to tell a kid that being gay is good?
Why should that be a requisite for adopting? And what's all this talk of gay kids? All kids haven't yet even hit puberty if so how can they be gay?
Earlier, i wrote about the bolded below:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
my opinion they should be able to adopt their views not withstanding
Cosign .. really since people don't have any need to report to you what they advocate is there any other choice than what you just wrote?
It seems this whole gay thing is being pushed, they have that much influence? I'm wondering why.
On second though though, isn't this opening up a can of worms?
I wanna make it ok for a person saying "God made Adam and Eve" to adopt, that man and women are there for eachother to be able to adopt but then no matter what anyone espouses they can get a child. I say this not just with respect to any particular group in mind. Booski made a good point about "disgusting evangelical brainwashing".
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, not necessarily. It's more than that. In essence, they believe homo-sexuality is wrong due to their "mainstream" christian beliefs. Which equates to- being gay means you won't go to heaven, basically. If the child turns out to be gay, imagine how that would feel. If not, the child may become like the foster parents i.e., homophobic religious nutcases. I would that there is a low probability of this not effecting a child negatively.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Oh wayt a minute -- so all this was about is their refusal to tell a kid that being gay is good?
Why should that be a requisite for adopting? And what's all this talk of gay kids? All kids haven't yet even hit puberty if so how can they be gay?
Earlier, i wrote about the bolded below:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
my opinion they should be able to adopt their views not withstanding
Cosign .. really since people don't have any need to report to you what they advocate is there any other choice than what you just wrote?
It seems this whole gay thing is being pushed, they have that much influence? I'm wondering why.
On second though though, isn't this opening up a can of worms?
I wanna make it ok for a person saying "God made Adam and Eve" to adopt, that man and women are there for eachother to be able to adopt but then no matter what anyone espouses they can get a child. I say this not just with respect to any particular group in mind. Booski made a good point about "disgusting evangelical brainwashing".
posted
I don't like gays because their lifestyle appears unhealthy to me.
I despise fanatical evangelical Christians because ... where shall I begin?
But these are just my opinions. I think we should live and let live. However, it would be naive to adopt that position with fanatics - because if they had a choice, THEY WOULD NOT LET YOU LIVE (IF YOU OPPOSE THEM).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Why should that be a requisite for adopting? And what's all this talk of gay kids? All kids haven't yet even hit puberty if so how can they be gay?
Exactly, Whatbizzle, you would think this would be "common sense" to normal and mainstream folk. Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: No, not necessarily. It's more than that.
I'm not going to add in this case to what it was shown that they actually said.
A lot of religious folks simply believe God made Adam and Eve. I'm aware that Scripture says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah which is where "Sodomy" comes from.
From the few seconds of the video i glanced at the couple seemed fairly tame and harmless to me. I've seen comments of a similar nature from folks just claiming that's the natural way of life, for males and females of species to get together.
Many Christians today haven't read or don't thouroughly pay attention to the Bible anyway and the most contemptious remarks i've seen directed at gays (from general mockery to straight disses) seem to be more about gender roles in society, and cultures the world over take gender roles very seriously regardless of religion except for a minority in the West. And even in the West words of gender role -mockery: "thems fightin words" whether hair pulling cat fights or straight brawls. I notice though that these type of words get thrown where people were already at each other or had a lack of respect for each other but this is all in line with what i'm sayin.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
From the few seconds of the video i glanced at the couple seemed fairly tame and harmless to me.
Believe that at your own risk.
It is their tameness that makes them amazingly dangerous. Many People like those folks in the video will disown their own children, if they so much as question their religious beliefs. These people will be all glossy eyed with shite-eating smiles on their faces when they see a picture of blonde white Jesus. If you replace that same picture with a Black man, they will - if they can - send you to their church for deliverance or better still, to a mental institution where DRUGS can be pumped into you blood that you might eventually get addicted to. These same "tame" arseholes will watch while millions of innocent women and children are being killed because it Bible prophesy. These people are very dangerous weapons and they're everywhere like landmines harming themselves and anyone else unfortunate enough to be within their influence.
Better stand back or get hurt! Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm not going to add in this case to what it was shown that they actually said.
Well, lets see. They said they were not willing to tell a child homosexuality was good, which means they think it is bad. Therefore, the probably do now think a homosexual with go to "heaven". If the child turns out to be gay then the negative outcomes are:
If the child isn't, homophobia can still hurt straight people:
quote:Homophobia hurts straight men, too
The suicide of college freshman Tyler Clementi painfully spotlights the dire consequences of homophobic bullying on gay men. But a homophobic culture that condemns male affection and emotion as "gay" hurts all men – and our culture at large.
He’s right, of course. But to fight intolerance against gay boys, we also need to acknowledge its toll on straights – and our entire culture. Homophobia hurts all of our boys, by driving a wedge between them. Sharing your deepest feelings with another man? That’s so . . . gay. Or so we’ve been taught.
quote:A lot of religious folks simply believe God made Adam and Eve. I'm aware that Scripture says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah which is where "Sodomy" comes from.
Yea- but obviously these religious folks don't simply believe that. They believe in what they deem as mainstream christian ideals already posted previously. If they simply believed in Adam and Eve I would have no problem, however their homophobia can negatively effect children.
quote:From the few seconds of the video i glanced at the couple seemed fairly tame and harmless to me. I've seen comments of a similar nature from folks just claiming that's the natural way of life, for males and females of species to get together.
They could be nice, but they may not be, who knows. I see no reason to decide based on a 12second clip...
quote:Many Christians today haven't read or don't thouroughly pay attention to the Bible anyway and the most contemptious remarks i've seen directed at gays (from general mockery to straight disses) seem to be more about gender roles in society, and cultures the world over take gender roles very seriously regardless of religion except for a minority in the West.
Seriously... do these people strike you as the type of christian that doesn't read the Bible? I highly doubt that is true, as a matter of fact, it probably not. These people obviously feel that homosexuality is a bad thing, and if they feel that way, then they probably don't think a homosexual child will be going to heaven.
quote:And even in the West words of gender role -mockery: "thems fightin words" whether hair pulling cat fights or straight brawls. I notice though that these type of words get thrown where people were already at each other or had a lack of respect for each other but this is all in line with what i'm sayin.
These words are usually tossed around by us young men (see above article) and it plays a negative role. Obviously, it IS NOT that simple with these folks.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do you think that people who IN ALL SERIOUSNESS will speak to you in a MATTER OF FACT manner (about their faith) in "going to heaven" should even be counted as adults?
The proliferation of the childlike mindstate is perhaps the root problem in all this, not whether a man chooses to engage one or two or three of the orifices that can be used to derive sexual pleasure (from a man's perspective) with the same or opposite gender.
I personally, will STRONGLY DISCOURAGE homosexuality in any of my children because I am not convinced it is natural. I think it is simply a social conditioning. If you kidnapped some hundreds of new-born children and split them into 3 groups and controlled all the inputs to their five senses - I bet you could make one group totally straight, the other totally gay and the last group bi-sexual. I can't prove this but I believe this to be possible.
I think really anything is possible so it depends on the architects of a society what they want to encourage in the long-term. I can see Western society has chosen to encourage homsexuality by HEAVILY promoting it and IN MY HONEST OPINION, I think it's an error.
Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know why this topic is here, but I'll bite.
I've read this news story days ago when it first came out, and basically the decree in the UK was that a couple is not allowed to adopt if they believe in the Bible and all its teachings as well as its doctrines against homosexuality. This is a blatant act of bias against Christianity as well as Judaism which is very ironic coming from a country that allows Islamic Shariah Law!
Of course they will never forbid people who believe in the Quran from adopting even though the Quran has passages against homosexuality that are much more extreme and violent than the Bible, but then again I believe the same Quran forbids the practice of adoption. Posts: 26326 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Homosexuality is a mental disease and should be treated as such. Its one thing to have compassion but it's quite another to lend credence to an abnormality.
Might as well say obesity is normal just because there are so many obese people in the US.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I cannot believe I am hearing such stupidity. All research shows that homosexuality is NOT a choice. Funny, I just spent an entire day at one of my mothers lectures were this came up... it is wrong to discriminate whether a child be gay, black etc., does anybody else see the irony of a black couple doing this? Also ironic that they're homophobic christians now unable to adopt. If the law teaches that it's wrong to discriminate against anyone then WTF should this couple be able to adopt? It is more probable that the child would be gay if he/she is rebellious. I honestly cannot believe the mentality of people on this forum, this just shocks me.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Homosexuality is a mental disease and should be treated as such. Its one thing to have compassion but it's quite another to lend credence to an abnormality.
Might as well say obesity is normal just because there are so many obese people in the US.
posted
It is a natural process for a man to grow with the desire to like another man in a sexual way ... but this desire grows being a learned behavior(fantasies that are conjured up in the mind). It is like... growing with the desire to like to eat sugar or to exercise, etc... However, no man comes out the womb sexually activated to want to have sex with another male. THAT IS ABSURD PSEUDOSCIENCE TALK.
Homosexuality is a life style. Charlie Sheen lives in a mansion with his two girl friends. It is his life style. He chooses to live his life that way and he can do so on his own accord. It is his freewill and he has right to do as he pleases so long as he is not harming others freewill.
There is a movement which marches along side the homosexual during the gay parade. This movement promotes the notion that a grown man should have the freedom to have sex with younger boy(I know a lot of people who would read this would find this repulsive... but remember that how homosexuality was seen decades ago). Who knows maybe the next generation will programmed to be tolerable to that as well. Where will the line be drawn? Before you know it a father with the desire to have sex with his child will speak up. Why should he not be able to speak? Isn't that a lifestyle he desires to live by? These question have and will continue to baffle the secular world.
There is nothing wrong with criticizing someone who publicly displays indecency. As Homo sapiens we have an intellect. That intellect is what separates us from every other living thing on this Earth. If we use that intellect we will come to realize that their is something called decency. Decency is embedded in our blood which is inherited from one generation to the next. It similar to the colostrum that carries the maternal immunity from the maternal lineage of the mother. Decency flows in every man and women. If something is indecent we can sense it and we have the right to stand up against it.
Everyone has the right to live according to their free will, but if what you do with your freewill will harms someone else freewill. Then that is where the line should be drawn.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: I cannot believe I am hearing such stupidity. All research shows that homosexuality is NOT a choice. Funny, I just spent an entire day at one of my mothers lectures were this came up... it is wrong to discriminate whether a child be gay, black etc., does anybody else see the irony of a black couple doing this? Also ironic that they're homophobic christians now unable to adopt. If the law teaches that it's wrong to discriminate against anyone then WTF should this couple be able to adopt? It is more probable that the child would be gay if he/she is rebellious. I honestly cannot believe the mentality of people on this forum, this just shocks me.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Homosexuality is a mental disease and should be treated as such. Its one thing to have compassion but it's quite another to lend credence to an abnormality.
Might as well say obesity is normal just because there are so many obese people in the US.
Never said you should discriminate against anyone because of a mental disease they have. I don't think obese people should be discriminated against either. However, it is not NORMAL even if the person was born that way. There are plenty of natural deformities that are not normal. A child born with autism is not NORMAL but requires special attention and training. The same with a child born with homosexuality (if that is ever proven to be the case). It should be considered a treatable condition but something a person that has the ailment would chose to remove. Many obese people are happy being that way and chose to do nothing about it. The same is true for homosexual people.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:It is a natural process for a man to grow with the desire to like another man in a sexual way ... but this desire grows being a learned behavior(fantasies that are conjured up in the mind). It is like... growing with the desire to like to eat sugar or to exercise, etc... However, no man comes out the womb sexually activated to want to have sex with another male. THAT IS ABSURD PSEUDOSCIENCE TALK.
Well of course people aren't literally born to be gay. However, once you know your sexual preference, then you don't change. I mean, I know I am not attracted to the same gender, and that's not going to change. Same for homosexuals, if they know who they are attracted to, then that won't change.
quote:Homosexuality is a life style. Charlie Sheen lives in a mansion with his two girl friends. It is his life style. He chooses to live his life that way and he can do so on his own accord. It is his freewill and he has right to do as he pleases so long as he is not harming others freewill.
There is a huge flaw with your comparison: Charlie Sheen can stop whenever the heck he wants! It's not as if gay people can stop being gay. Straight people know they're straight, and gay people know they're gay. You can't change your sexual preference.
quote:There is a movement which marches along side the homosexual during the gay parade. This movement promotes the notion that a grown man should have the freedom to have sex with younger boy(I know a lot of people who would read this would find this repulsive... but remember that how homosexuality was seen decades ago). Who knows maybe the next generation will programmed to be tolerable to that as well. Where will the line be drawn? Before you know it a father with the desire to have sex with his child will speak up. Why should he not be able to speak? Isn't that a lifestyle he desires to live by? These question have and will continue to baffle the secular world.
LOL! No way. There is a HUGE difference between two adult of the same gender who are attracted to each other and grown men with children. I honestly don't think an explanation is needed for why that is wrong, and will most likely never be tolerated in this modern society. Incest has been proven to result in genetically negative effects. Terrible, terrible comparisons.
quote:There is nothing wrong with criticizing someone who publicly displays indecency. As Homo sapiens we have an intellect. That intellect is what separates us from every other living thing on this Earth. If we use that intellect we will come to realize that their is something called decency. Decency is embedded in our blood which is inherited from one generation to the next. It similar to the colostrum that carries the maternal immunity from the maternal lineage of the mother. Decency flows in every man and women. If something is indecent we can sense it and we have the right to stand up against it.
I had no idea decency was a genetically inherited trait LOL! Are you suggesting homosexuality is "indecent"?
quote:Everyone has the right to live according to their free will, but if what you do with your freewill will harms someone else freewill. Then that is where the line should be drawn.
Well, it is not as if homosexuals harm someones free will.
Osirion...
quote:Never said you should discriminate against anyone because of a mental disease they have. I don't think obese people should be discriminated against either. However, it is not NORMAL even if the person was born that way.
OK, first of all, read what the American Psychiatric Association has to say before making such stupid claims of a mental illness LMAO!:
quote:Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation POSITION STATEMENT
Approved by the Board of Trustees, December 1998 Approved by the Assembly, November 1998
"Policy documents are approved by the APA Assembly and Board of Trustees… These are …position statements that define APA official policy on specific subjects…" -- APA Operations Manual.
An initial version of this position statement was proposed in September 1998 by the Committee on Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Issues of the Council on National Affairs. It was revised and approved by the APA Assembly in November 1998. The revised version was approved by the Board of Trustees in December 1998.
The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) in 1973 after reviewing evidence that it was not a mental disorder. In 1987 ego-dystonic homosexuality was not included in the revised third edition of DSM (DSM-II-R) after a similar review.
APA does not currently have a formal position statement on treatments that attempt to change a person’s sexual orientation, also known as “reparative therapy” or “conversion therapy.” In 1997 APA produced a fact sheet on homosexual and bisexual issues, which states that “there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of “reparative therapy” as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.”
The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great and include depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian are not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. APA recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.
Several major professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American Academy of Pediatrics, have made statements against “reparative therapy” because of concerns for the harm caused to patients. The American Psychiatric Association has already taken clear stands against discrimination, prejudice, and unethical treatment on a variety of issues, including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Therefore, APA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as “reparative” or “conversion” therapy, that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or is based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his or her homosexual orientation.
quote:There are plenty of natural deformities that are not normal. A child born with autism is not NORMAL but requires special attention and training.
There is a huge difference between sexual preference and a disorder that effects a childs development of social and communication skills.
quote:he same with a child born with homosexuality (if that is ever proven to be the case). It should be considered a treatable condition but something a person that has the ailment would chose to remove. Many obese people are happy being that way and chose to do nothing about it. The same is true for homosexual people.
Read my above citation, not only are there negative effects to so-called "treatment" in homosexuals, but there is no evidence that it actually works.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Calabooz said "Well of course people aren't literally born to be gay. However, once you know your sexual preference, then you don't change. I mean, I know I am not attracted to the same gender, and that's not going to change. Same for homosexuals, if they know who they are attracted to, then that won't change."
So if you agree people are not born gay.. Then that means its a learned behavior. Attraction is subjective. Depending on your experiences and the environment you grew up in throughout your lifespan you have your own definition of what is attractive and what is appalling. Sometimes the desire for sex is not merely based of visual attraction.
Calabooz said "There is a huge flaw with your comparison: Charlie Sheen can stop whenever the heck he wants! It's not as if gay people can stop being gay. Straight people know they're straight, and gay people know they're gay. You can't change your sexual preference."
I never said charlie sheen can't stop his addiction for his desires. Only through rehabilitation and maintaining discipline can a person control his desires. Someone can say they desire sexual intercourse with an animal. They can control that desire through rehabilitation and discipline. The same applies to a man who desires sexual intercourse with another man.
How do you know whether a gay person can't stop or not? unless your gay.. :/(No offense intended) By the way what are your thoughts about bisexuals? or Transvestites?
The only people who should have a hard time choosing sides are hermaphrodites, since they are born with both sexual organs.
It is the nature of life to reproduce. Look at other phylas in kingdom Animalia; all use sex as a method of reproduction. Sexual Desire is enticed by the hypothalamus(organ in brain) in order to motivate us to have sex. If there was motivation there would be no will to reproduce. Now the human species has a more elaborate brain to where we can fantasize. The fantasies an individual fabricates are built on their experiences from their environment.
Calabooz says "LOL! No way. There is a HUGE difference between two adult of the same gender who are attracted to each other and grown men with children. I honestly don't think an explanation is needed for why that is wrong, and will most likely never be tolerated in this modern society. Incest has been proven to result in genetically negative effects. Terrible, terrible comparisons."
Well yeah! You see that difference because its a taboo in today's society. You just proved my point. Insist and pedophilia is seen as a taboo in the same light that homosexuality was seen in the past. So it is all on how society defines morality. The views you carry have been programmed into you by what you have been exposed to in mainstream culture. For example you have been programmed to feel that anyone under the age of the adult is still a child(While in many cultures in Africa you are a man once you hit the age of puberty). I can go on... but hopefully you get my point. These people I told you about who march in the gay parade, believe they should have the freedom to fulfill their desire. However you seem to be disgusted by it..
"I had no idea decency was a genetically inherited trait LOL! Are you suggesting homosexuality is "indecent"?"
Well it depends on how you look at it. I was hoping you can open your mind a bit. I was approaching it from a spiritual sense. You do have a spiritual side?
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: Calabooz said "Well of course people aren't literally born to be gay. However, once you know your sexual preference, then you don't change. I mean, I know I am not attracted to the same gender, and that's not going to change. Same for homosexuals, if they know who they are attracted to, then that won't change."
So if you agree people are not born gay.. Then that means its a learned behavior. Attraction is subjective. Depending on your experiences and the environment you grew up in throughout your lifespan you have your own definition of what is attractive and what is appalling. Sometimes the desire for sex is not merely based of visual attraction.
I agree that a baby doesn't come out being gay. I further believe that homosexuality may be based on environment. However, if somebody knows their sexual preference then that is just who they are.
quote:Calabooz said "There is a huge flaw with your comparison: Charlie Sheen can stop whenever the heck he wants! It's not as if gay people can stop being gay. Straight people know they're straight, and gay people know they're gay. You can't change your sexual preference."
I never said charlie sheen can't stop his addiction for his desires. Only through rehabilitation and maintaining discipline can a person control his desires. Someone can say they desire sexual intercourse with an animal. They can control that desire through rehabilitation and discipline. The same applies to a man who desires sexual intercourse with another man.
I never said you said Charlie Sheen couldn't stop. If you had read what I said, I stated that HE COULD STOP. Again, there is a huge difference between having sex with an animal as opposed to just being attracted to the same gender. Why should homosexual people change if they know who they are attracted to? And WHY DID YOU TOTALLY DISREGARD MY CITATION OF THE AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATIONS You plain ignored it and continue with these claims of sexual reorientation.
quote:How do you know whether a gay person can't stop or not? unless your gay.. :/(No offense intended) By the way what are your thoughts about bisexuals? or Transvestites?
OMG... YOU JUST IGNORED THE APA'S OFFICIAL STATEMENT AND CONTINUED TO ASK THIS QUESTION My thoughts on bisexuals is the same... to my understanding, Transvestites just feel they are born in the wrong body. As far as I'm concerned, if that is what they feel, then that's just how they feel. I find it weird to unnaturally change your gender though.
quote:The only people who should have a hard time choosing sides are hermaphrodites, since they are born with both sexual organs.
OK...?
quote:It is the nature of life to reproduce. Look at other phylas in kingdom Animalia; all use sex as a method of reproduction. Sexual Desire is enticed by the hypothalamus(organ in brain) in order to motivate us to have sex. If there was motivation there would be no will to reproduce. Now the human species has a more elaborate brain to where we can fantasize. The fantasies an individual fabricates are built on their experiences from their environment.
LMAO! Of course it is natural to reproduce. What you completely ignore however, is that animals have sex with the same gender as well LOL!
quote:Calabooz says "LOL! No way. There is a HUGE difference between two adult of the same gender who are attracted to each other and grown men with children. I honestly don't think an explanation is needed for why that is wrong, and will most likely never be tolerated in this modern society. Incest has been proven to result in genetically negative effects. Terrible, terrible comparisons."
Well yeah! You see that difference because its a taboo in today's society. You just proved my point. Insist and pedophilia is seen as a taboo in the same light that homosexuality was seen in the past. So it is all on how society defines morality. The views you carry have been programmed into you by what you have been exposed to in mainstream culture. For example you have been programmed to feel that anyone under the age of the adult is still a child(While in many cultures in Africa you are a man once you hit the age of puberty). I can go on... but hopefully you get my point. These people I told you about who march in the gay parade, believe they should have the freedom to fulfill their desire. However you seem to be disgusted by it..
I did not prove your point in the slightest. My point is that incest and pedophilia are totally different, regardless of how people used to view homosexuality. First of all, incest creates negative genetic mutations, Homosexuality doesn't, it can be perfectly healthy. Pedophillia is having sex with a CHILD as opposed to Homosexuality were it is two adults. Which is why your analogies are absolutely terrible. Sex with a child is totally different than homosexuality... for starters, what parents would let their child have sex with an older person? Secondly, what child wants to have sex with someone years older? What your saying makes no sense. There are some things that shouldn't be allowed due to the harmful effects. And then there are things that don't cause harm to anybody. I suppose you'll have to define child here, though. Here is the American Psychiatric Association's statement:
quote:AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION STATEMENT DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR PEDOPHILIA June 17, 2003
Arlington, Va. -- Pedophilia, included in the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) since 1968, continues to be classified as a mental disorder. The DSM is the standard classification of mental disorders used by mental health professionals and provides clear, objective descriptions of mental illnesses, based upon scientific research. Pedophilia is categorized in the DSM-IV-TR as one of several paraphilic mental disorders. The essential features of a Paraphilia are recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors that generally involve nonhuman subjects, children, or other non- consenting adults, or the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one’s partner.
Homosexuality- not a disorder. Pedophillia- is
quote:"I had no idea decency was a genetically inherited trait LOL! Are you suggesting homosexuality is "indecent"?"
Well it depends on how you look at it. I was hoping you can open your mind a bit. I was approaching it from a spiritual sense. You do have a spiritual side?
Of course I have a spiritual side... that doesn't stop me from questioning baseless claims like decency is an inherited trait. Especially since millions of people are indecent, which is why that made no sense whatsoever.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:It is a natural process for a man to grow with the desire to like another man in a sexual way ... but this desire grows being a learned behavior(fantasies that are conjured up in the mind). It is like... growing with the desire to like to eat sugar or to exercise, etc... However, no man comes out the womb sexually activated to want to have sex with another male. THAT IS ABSURD PSEUDOSCIENCE TALK.
Well of course people aren't literally born to be gay. However, once you know your sexual preference, then you don't change. I mean, I know I am not attracted to the same gender, and that's not going to change. Same for homosexuals, if they know who they are attracted to, then that won't change.
quote:Homosexuality is a life style. Charlie Sheen lives in a mansion with his two girl friends. It is his life style. He chooses to live his life that way and he can do so on his own accord. It is his freewill and he has right to do as he pleases so long as he is not harming others freewill.
There is a huge flaw with your comparison: Charlie Sheen can stop whenever the heck he wants! It's not as if gay people can stop being gay. Straight people know they're straight, and gay people know they're gay. You can't change your sexual preference.
quote:There is a movement which marches along side the homosexual during the gay parade. This movement promotes the notion that a grown man should have the freedom to have sex with younger boy(I know a lot of people who would read this would find this repulsive... but remember that how homosexuality was seen decades ago). Who knows maybe the next generation will programmed to be tolerable to that as well. Where will the line be drawn? Before you know it a father with the desire to have sex with his child will speak up. Why should he not be able to speak? Isn't that a lifestyle he desires to live by? These question have and will continue to baffle the secular world.
LOL! No way. There is a HUGE difference between two adult of the same gender who are attracted to each other and grown men with children. I honestly don't think an explanation is needed for why that is wrong, and will most likely never be tolerated in this modern society. Incest has been proven to result in genetically negative effects. Terrible, terrible comparisons.
quote:There is nothing wrong with criticizing someone who publicly displays indecency. As Homo sapiens we have an intellect. That intellect is what separates us from every other living thing on this Earth. If we use that intellect we will come to realize that their is something called decency. Decency is embedded in our blood which is inherited from one generation to the next. It similar to the colostrum that carries the maternal immunity from the maternal lineage of the mother. Decency flows in every man and women. If something is indecent we can sense it and we have the right to stand up against it.
I had no idea decency was a genetically inherited trait LOL! Are you suggesting homosexuality is "indecent"?
quote:Everyone has the right to live according to their free will, but if what you do with your freewill will harms someone else freewill. Then that is where the line should be drawn.
Well, it is not as if homosexuals harm someones free will.
Osirion...
quote:Never said you should discriminate against anyone because of a mental disease they have. I don't think obese people should be discriminated against either. However, it is not NORMAL even if the person was born that way.
OK, first of all, read what the American Psychiatric Association has to say before making such stupid claims of a mental illness LMAO!:
quote:Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation POSITION STATEMENT
Approved by the Board of Trustees, December 1998 Approved by the Assembly, November 1998
"Policy documents are approved by the APA Assembly and Board of Trustees… These are …position statements that define APA official policy on specific subjects…" -- APA Operations Manual.
An initial version of this position statement was proposed in September 1998 by the Committee on Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Issues of the Council on National Affairs. It was revised and approved by the APA Assembly in November 1998. The revised version was approved by the Board of Trustees in December 1998.
The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) in 1973 after reviewing evidence that it was not a mental disorder. In 1987 ego-dystonic homosexuality was not included in the revised third edition of DSM (DSM-II-R) after a similar review.
APA does not currently have a formal position statement on treatments that attempt to change a person’s sexual orientation, also known as “reparative therapy” or “conversion therapy.” In 1997 APA produced a fact sheet on homosexual and bisexual issues, which states that “there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of “reparative therapy” as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.”
The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great and include depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian are not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. APA recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.
Several major professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American Academy of Pediatrics, have made statements against “reparative therapy” because of concerns for the harm caused to patients. The American Psychiatric Association has already taken clear stands against discrimination, prejudice, and unethical treatment on a variety of issues, including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Therefore, APA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as “reparative” or “conversion” therapy, that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or is based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his or her homosexual orientation.
quote:There are plenty of natural deformities that are not normal. A child born with autism is not NORMAL but requires special attention and training.
There is a huge difference between sexual preference and a disorder that effects a childs development of social and communication skills.
quote:he same with a child born with homosexuality (if that is ever proven to be the case). It should be considered a treatable condition but something a person that has the ailment would chose to remove. Many obese people are happy being that way and chose to do nothing about it. The same is true for homosexual people.
Read my above citation, not only are there negative effects to so-called "treatment" in homosexuals, but there is no evidence that it actually works.
Lets deal with what I have refuted that you did not try to resolve.
1. You claimed homosexuality is normal because you claim that people are born that way.
---- my refute - lots of natural deformities such as Autism.
2. You said we shouldn't deny people their preferences.
---- my refute - never said we should as long as they are consenting adults.
3. You claim that our medical industry doesn't recognize homosexuality as a mental disorder and that therapies have proven ineffectual.
---- my refute - DSM-IV recognizes eating disorders such as anorexia and bulimia as mental disorders with severe impairments and serious adverse outcomes but does not recognize obesity despite its devastating medical and psychological consequences. Treatment for obesity as a mental disorder is considered to be potentially harmful since it attributes maladaptive psychological traits to all obese individuals. With that said, an Obese person should have a place to go to get treatment if that is what they desire and the same is true for homosexuals. To simply call either of these ailments normal is simply to ignore sound reasoning. Both Obesity and Homosexuality are unintended side effects of our human condition.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Calabooz said "I agree that a baby doesn't come out being gay. I further believe that homosexuality may be based on environment. However, if somebody knows their sexual preference then that is just who they are."
Homosexuality is what they choose to be... it is not who they are...
Calabooz said "I never said you said Charlie Sheen couldn't stop. If you had read what I said, I stated that HE COULD STOP. Again, there is a huge difference between having sex with an animal as opposed to just being attracted to the same gender. Why should homosexual people change if they know who they are attracted to? And WHY DID YOU TOTALLY DISREGARD MY CITATION OF THE AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATIONS You plain ignored it and continue with these claims of sexual reorientation"
Yes I know what you said. I was just reiterating it. Because as Charlie Sheen can stop what he is doing through rehabilitation and discipline. Someone who chooses to refrain from homosexual desires they can do so through rehabilitation and discipline.
I apologize. I did not see it. It was not in your response to my reply. There is a lot of controversial theories in the field of psychology. The facts gathered through the field of psychology are based off empirical evidence(or evidence based off what is observed of the senses). If you study physiology you will come to realize the human body is to perplex to make absolute judgment based off observation of the macro state of the body. By the way I have great respect for the field of psychology as a science so I am no way trying to belittle it. You never told how you know A homosexual can't refrain from that desire by the way.
Calabooz said "LMAO! Of course it is natural to reproduce. What you completely ignore however, is that animals have sex with the same gender as well LOL!
This point I was trying to make when I brought animals into the mix. The point is, heterosexual desires are natural desires. Why? because that is the means of reproduction. IT HAS A PURPOSE. Homosexuality has no purpose other then the fulfillment of a desire. You can't get nothing out of homosexuality.
Now a days you got homosexuals who feel the need to start a family, so all these unprecedented methods have been invented in order to make this an option. If it were not for science & technology(surrogate mothers, in vitro fertilization, etc..) gay couples could never have their fantasy family( because it is not natural).
And yes there are a few animals that have sex with the same gender. Animals like the bonobo monkey are real sexual creatures. They hump every member of their tribe/group. Whether it be a young or an elder it is a hump-fest.
Calabooz said "I did not prove your point in the slightest. My point is that incest and pedophilia are totally different, regardless of how people used to view homosexuality. First of all, incest creates negative genetic mutations, Homosexuality doesn't, it can be perfectly healthy. Pedophillia is having sex with a CHILD as opposed to Homosexuality were it is two adults. Which is why your analogies are absolutely terrible. Sex with a child is totally different than homosexuality... for starters, what parents would let their child have sex with an older person? Secondly, what child wants to have sex with someone years older? What your saying makes no sense. There are some things that shouldn't be allowed due to the harmful effects. And then there are things that don't cause harm to anybody. I suppose you'll have to define child here, though. Here is the American Psychiatric Association's statement:"
Yes you did. You just choose to ignore what I am trying to tell you. You say pedophile is a disorder according to your resource. But who is to say that is accurate. In the states by law the age of 18 determines that you are an adult. Does that law have any scientific evidence. Is it true that when you are 18 *ABRA-KADABRA* your an adult? This is what you have been programmed to believe. So If an older man desires an 18 year old what is the difference if he desires a 17 year old. What is the difference? Does that extra year just magically make it okay. There is no logic in that. What determines Adulthood? Age or the inner biology of the body?
I don't think you really understood the point I was trying to make by the way. I am not comparing the two. I never graded either one as which is worse then the other. I said that Their is a group who marches along side the homosexual during the gay parade. And they believe As older men they should have the freedom to have sexual intercourse with boys.
You said "what child wants to have sex with someone years older?" Trust me when you have decadence in a society you will find things even worse then this.
I just want you to realize something. You find it repulsive for a man to make love to a boy, yet you are okay with a man loving another man. That there.. is your opinion. So if someone happens to find a man and man making love.. repulsive, you have no right to tell them they should feel otherwise. They are entitled to their opinion as you are.
Calabooz said "Homosexuality- not a disorder. Pedophillia- is"
Never said it was.
Calabooz said "Of course I have a spiritual side... that doesn't stop me from questioning baseless claims like decency is an inherited trait. Especially since millions of people are indecent, which is why that made no sense whatsoever."
Well if you have a spiritual side. Then you should know that when you analyze something spiritually most of time you analyze it metaphorically. I did not mean inheritance in the literal sense.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Osirion, wow. I had thought I had heard your stupidest post, but this must take the cake.
quote:Lets deal with what I have refuted that you did not try to resolve.
1. You claimed homosexuality is normal because you claim that people are born that way.
---- my refute - lots of natural deformities such as Autism.
If you were able to read, you would have seen that I have already responded to that idiotic claim
quote:. You said we shouldn't deny people their preferences.
---- my refute - never said we should as long as they are consenting adults.
LOL! Osirion, I was the one who stated that the separation between homosexuality and pedophilia was that homosexuality was with two consenting adults. Here, is what you had to say:
quote:Originally posted by Osirion:
Homosexuality is a mental disease and should be treated as such. Its one thing to have compassion but it's quite another to lend credence to an abnormality.
Obviously, if you think it should be treated as a mental disease, then you think it should be "cured" which in turn means you do not think homosexuals should be allowed to practice homosexuality because it should be cured. Hypocrite.
quote:---- my refute - DSM-IV recognizes eating disorders such as anorexia and bulimia as mental disorders with severe impairments and serious adverse outcomes but does not recognize obesity despite its devastating medical and psychological consequences. Treatment for obesity as a mental disorder is considered to be potentially harmful since it attributes maladaptive psychological traits to all obese individuals. With that said, an Obese person should have a place to go to get treatment if that is what they desire and the same is true for homosexuals. To simply call either of these ailments normal is simply to ignore sound reasoning. Both Obesity and Homosexuality are unintended side effects of our human condition.
What an idiotic post... Diabetes is a medical condition whereas Eating disorders are actually the result of deep-rooted psychological problems that can cause harm. Since you seem oblivious to the definition of mental illness, allow me to provide it:
mental illness
n
(Medicine / Pathology) any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people
Now tell me, how is diabetes the result of somebodies emotions? It is not, it is a medical condition DUH! Homosexuality likewise doesn't fit into the definition of mental illness as it doesn't cause harm to an individual or those around them. Only a very, very stupid person would say Diabetes is a mental disorder.
multisphinx...
quote:Homosexuality is what they choose to be... it is not who they are..
Nonsense, one doesn't just choose to be gay. I mean, it's not like I could force myself to suddenly become gay. Could you? Obviously if you apply this logic to gay people, then you have to be able to apply it to straight people. So tell me, do you think you could force yourself to be attracted to the same sex?
quote:Yes I know what you said. I was just reiterating it. Because as Charlie Sheen can stop what he is doing through rehabilitation and discipline. Someone who chooses to refrain from homosexual desires they can do so through rehabilitation and discipline.
I don't think you know what I said. My point was that Charlie Sheen can stop doing what he does whenever he wants, gay people can't. I repeat, can you sit there and tell me you could force yourself to be attracted to the same sex?
quote:I apologize. I did not see it. It was not in your response to my reply. There is a lot of controversial theories in the field of psychology. The facts gathered through the field of psychology are based off empirical evidence(or evidence based off what is observed of the senses). If you study physiology you will come to realize the human body is to perplex to make absolute judgment based off observation of the macro state of the body. By the way I have great respect for the field of psychology as a science so I am no way trying to belittle it.
You never told how you know A homosexual can't refrain from that desire by the way.
Now please tell me, when did I ever deny that a homosexual can refrain from having same sex intercourse? Of course they would be able to refrain themselves, but they most certainly wouldn't be able to force themselves to be attracted to the opposite sex, and maybe not even have sex with the opposite gender. I bring this question up yet again, can you stand there and tell me that you could force yourself to have sex and be attracted to the same sex? The same exact thing applies to homosexuals.
quote:This point I was trying to make when I brought animals into the mix. The point is, heterosexual desires are natural desires. Why? because that is the means of reproduction. IT HAS A PURPOSE. Homosexuality has no purpose other then the fulfillment of a desire. You can't get nothing out of homosexuality.
Earlier you states that homosexuality was also natural, now you don't? My point was that homosexuality is natural if it is practiced in nature without need for intervention
Natural: happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without the intervention of accident, violence, etc.
Perfectly natural if it occurs without intervention.
quote:Now a days you got homosexuals who feel the need to start a family, so all these unprecedented methods have been invented in order to make this an option. If it were not for science & technology(surrogate mothers, in vitro fertilization, etc..) gay couples could never have their fantasy family( because it is not natural).
So, what's your point? Homosexuality is still a perfectly natural phenomenon occurring in nature. Homosexual parents actually tend to raise normal/better than normal children
quote:Yes you did. You just choose to ignore what I am trying to tell you. You say pedophile is a disorder according to your resource. But who is to say that is accurate.
Lets reexamine your point which was:
quote:sist and pedophilia is seen as a taboo in the same light that homosexuality was seen in the past.
My point is that pedophilia is actually a mental disorder, whereas homosexuality is not. Your point was that if homosexuality used to be viewed as "bad" then maybe in the future pedophilia will be viewed as "OK". I then gave you reasons why this was not a likely or probable scenario. LOL! My source was the American Psychiatric Association which is the psychiatric equivalent of the American Anthropological Association. That is, the leading scholarly voice on psychiatry.
quote:In the states by law the age of 18 determines that you are an adult. Does that law have any scientific evidence. Is it true that when you are 18 *ABRA-KADABRA* your an adult? This is what you have been programmed to believe.
To my understanding, this is to prevent you from damaging your body organs before they are fully developed. 16-18 is the norm I'm pretty sure. You do realise that pedophiles go after KIDS not 16-18yr olds... right? Which is why that was a bad analogy.
quote:So If an older man desires an 18 year old what is the difference if he desires a 17 year old. What is the difference? Does that extra year just magically make it okay. There is no logic in that.
That makes no difference to me... Look at the definition of a pedophile for crying out loud:
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't think you really understood the point I was trying to make by the way. I am not comparing the two. I never graded either one as which is worse then the other. I said that Their is a group who marches along side the homosexual during the gay parade. And they believe As older men they should have the freedom to have sexual intercourse with boys.
You stated that maybe in the future these pedophiles may be tolerated in the next generation, here is what you said:
quote:Who knows maybe the next generation will programmed to be tolerable to that as well.
So yes, that was an analogy comparing to like things.
quote:I just want you to realize something. You find it repulsive for a man to make love to a boy, yet you are okay with a man loving another man. That there.. is your opinion. So if someone happens to find a man and man making love.. repulsive, you have no right to tell them they should feel otherwise. They are entitled to their opinion as you are.
I never claimed anybody was unable to have their own opinion... I took issue when Osirion claimed it was a mental illness. As I have already stated previously, homosexuality is NOT a mental illness. There is a perfectly sound reason for finding pedophilia disturbing... as I have already provided the officail statement of the American Psychiatrist Association, Pedophilia IS a mental illness. There is however no basis for Homosexuality to be considered a mental illness. Furthermore, I have already provided earlier on in this thread the negative effects of homophobia on children.
quote:Calabooz said "Homosexuality- not a disorder. Pedophillia- is"
Never said it was.
I never said you said that homosexuality was a mental disorder. The point being that pedophilia IS therefore there is no reason to compare the two as you did earlier on by stating that the future may be tolerable of pedophilia just as we are now for the most part tolerable of homosexuality. I have given reasons why that is not the case
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: Osirion, wow. I had thought I had heard your stupidest post, but this must take the cake.
quote:Lets deal with what I have refuted that you did not try to resolve.
1. You claimed homosexuality is normal because you claim that people are born that way.
---- my refute - lots of natural deformities such as Autism.
If you were able to read, you would have seen that I have already responded to that idiotic claim
quote:. You said we shouldn't deny people their preferences.
---- my refute - never said we should as long as they are consenting adults.
LOL! Osirion, I was the one who stated that the separation between homosexuality and pedophilia was that homosexuality was with two consenting adults. Here, is what you had to say:
quote:Originally posted by Osirion:
Homosexuality is a mental disease and should be treated as such. Its one thing to have compassion but it's quite another to lend credence to an abnormality.
Obviously, if you think it should be treated as a mental disease, then you think it should be "cured" which in turn means you do not think homosexuals should be allowed to practice homosexuality because it should be cured. Hypocrite.
quote:---- my refute - DSM-IV recognizes eating disorders such as anorexia and bulimia as mental disorders with severe impairments and serious adverse outcomes but does not recognize obesity despite its devastating medical and psychological consequences. Treatment for obesity as a mental disorder is considered to be potentially harmful since it attributes maladaptive psychological traits to all obese individuals. With that said, an Obese person should have a place to go to get treatment if that is what they desire and the same is true for homosexuals. To simply call either of these ailments normal is simply to ignore sound reasoning. Both Obesity and Homosexuality are unintended side effects of our human condition.
What an idiotic post... Diabetes is a medical condition whereas Eating disorders are actually the result of deep-rooted psychological problems that can cause harm. Since you seem oblivious to the definition of mental illness, allow me to provide it:
mental illness
n
(Medicine / Pathology) any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people
Now tell me, how is diabetes the result of somebodies emotions? It is not, it is a medical condition DUH! Homosexuality likewise doesn't fit into the definition of mental illness as it doesn't cause harm to an individual or those around them. Only a very, very stupid person would say Diabetes is a mental disorder.
multisphinx...
quote:Homosexuality is what they choose to be... it is not who they are..
Nonsense, one doesn't just choose to be gay. I mean, it's not like I could force myself to suddenly become gay. Could you? Obviously if you apply this logic to gay people, then you have to be able to apply it to straight people. So tell me, do you think you could force yourself to be attracted to the same sex?
quote:Yes I know what you said. I was just reiterating it. Because as Charlie Sheen can stop what he is doing through rehabilitation and discipline. Someone who chooses to refrain from homosexual desires they can do so through rehabilitation and discipline.
I don't think you know what I said. My point was that Charlie Sheen can stop doing what he does whenever he wants, gay people can't. I repeat, can you sit there and tell me you could force yourself to be attracted to the same sex?
quote:I apologize. I did not see it. It was not in your response to my reply. There is a lot of controversial theories in the field of psychology. The facts gathered through the field of psychology are based off empirical evidence(or evidence based off what is observed of the senses). If you study physiology you will come to realize the human body is to perplex to make absolute judgment based off observation of the macro state of the body. By the way I have great respect for the field of psychology as a science so I am no way trying to belittle it.
You never told how you know A homosexual can't refrain from that desire by the way.
Now please tell me, when did I ever deny that a homosexual can refrain from having same sex intercourse? Of course they would be able to refrain themselves, but they most certainly wouldn't be able to force themselves to be attracted to the opposite sex, and maybe not even have sex with the opposite gender. I bring this question up yet again, can you stand there and tell me that you could force yourself to have sex and be attracted to the same sex? The same exact thing applies to homosexuals.
quote:This point I was trying to make when I brought animals into the mix. The point is, heterosexual desires are natural desires. Why? because that is the means of reproduction. IT HAS A PURPOSE. Homosexuality has no purpose other then the fulfillment of a desire. You can't get nothing out of homosexuality.
Earlier you states that homosexuality was also natural, now you don't? My point was that homosexuality is natural if it is practiced in nature without need for intervention
Natural: happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without the intervention of accident, violence, etc.
Perfectly natural if it occurs without intervention.
quote:Now a days you got homosexuals who feel the need to start a family, so all these unprecedented methods have been invented in order to make this an option. If it were not for science & technology(surrogate mothers, in vitro fertilization, etc..) gay couples could never have their fantasy family( because it is not natural).
So, what's your point? Homosexuality is still a perfectly natural phenomenon occurring in nature. Homosexual parents actually tend to raise normal/better than normal children
quote:Yes you did. You just choose to ignore what I am trying to tell you. You say pedophile is a disorder according to your resource. But who is to say that is accurate.
Lets reexamine your point which was:
quote:sist and pedophilia is seen as a taboo in the same light that homosexuality was seen in the past.
My point is that pedophilia is actually a mental disorder, whereas homosexuality is not. Your point was that if homosexuality used to be viewed as "bad" then maybe in the future pedophilia will be viewed as "OK". I then gave you reasons why this was not a likely or probable scenario. LOL! My source was the American Psychiatric Association which is the psychiatric equivalent of the American Anthropological Association. That is, the leading scholarly voice on psychiatry.
quote:In the states by law the age of 18 determines that you are an adult. Does that law have any scientific evidence. Is it true that when you are 18 *ABRA-KADABRA* your an adult? This is what you have been programmed to believe.
To my understanding, this is to prevent you from damaging your body organs before they are fully developed. 16-18 is the norm I'm pretty sure. You do realise that pedophiles go after KIDS not 16-18yr olds... right? Which is why that was a bad analogy.
quote:So If an older man desires an 18 year old what is the difference if he desires a 17 year old. What is the difference? Does that extra year just magically make it okay. There is no logic in that.
That makes no difference to me... Look at the definition of a pedophile for crying out loud:
Homosexuality does cause harm to the individual because they are aware of their abnormality which causes psychological distress. It is this distress that forces them to try to seek normalcy through social engineering. However, even a child knows that male and female is the normal coupling for humans by clear physical design. Homosexuals will never feel normal. If it could be cured it should and we should not simply give up and try to normalize it hoping that will reduce the harmful affects. That is only masking the symptoms.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
There is a lot of conjecture to what psychiatric claim as mental disorder. A lot of their mainstream jargon is tied to Big Pharma who use the diagnosis so they can market their drugs. Do you know what happens to someone who is diagnosed with a mental disorder? They are prescribed psychotropic drugs which later create imbalances in their neuro-chemistry and makes them vulnerable to real disorders of the psyche. I personally don't believe a pedophile has a mental disorder. I think a pedophile develop their desire based off fantasies thought up in their mind. They need help but not help through drugs to create a permanent imbalance in their mind. Same thing with homosexuality it is not a disorder. It is a desire for a man to love another man sexually.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Osarion said "Nonsense, one doesn't just choose to be gay. I mean, it's not like I could force myself to suddenly become gay. Could you? Obviously if you apply this logic to gay people, then you have to be able to apply it to straight people. So tell me, do you think you could force yourself to be attracted to the same sex?"
I think you misunderstood me. They choose to follow their desire for men. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself. For example you you desire a certain food which i might abhor and vice versa. You desire a certain type of women which i might not find as appealing so I might not desire her in the same light. Your desires are learned. Desire is a natural mechanism that is linked to hormones(chemical messengers) that play their part in the limbic system. What you build your desires on is learned process. What element you connect to that sensation of desire is learned.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Osarion.. I said it is not part of Natures cycle because it offers nothing to nature. Every living thing whether from plant, animal, protazo, fungi, bacteria wants to thrive and expand its species and pass its genetic information(that is the goal of every living thing on earth). Homosexuality is not productive in the sense of natures cycle. So it is not natural in that sense.
My point is this. A man can desires another man sexually through ideas that pop up in his mind(fantasies). Fantasies find there way into the mind through learned experiences and information that an individual perceives from his environment. Every voluntary action you decide to make is based off an idea from the mind. The body is just a drone and our mind operates it. We have a division in the Nervous system that controls its self called the Autonomic Nervous system. The only control we have on our body is through the Somatic Nervous System(that controls our skeletal muscles *only*). So we are limited in our control over our bodies. You don't control your breathing, heart rate, GI tract, etc...
Your thoughts are developed based off learning. What you learn is based off the stimiuli you perceive through your Somatic senses(hearing, vision, pain, temperature, pressure and so on).
To make a long story short. Desires are learned mechanism in the brain and with help certain desires can controlled through therapy and self discipline.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Homosexuality does cause harm to the individual because they are aware of their abnormality which causes psychological distress. It is this distress that forces them to try to seek normalcy through social engineering. However, even a child knows that male and female is the normal coupling for humans by clear physical design. Homosexuals will never feel normal. If it could be cured it should and we should not simply give up and try to normalize it hoping that will reduce the harmful affects. That is only masking the symptoms.
Wow Osirion, that ignores so much of what I have already posted. Homosexuality itself does not cause psychological distress, it is homophobia that does Very early on in this thread I posted an article about the effects of homophobia on gay children. What harmful effects, Osirion? You are pulling these claims out of your ***. Why do you keep suggesting that we should try to "normalize" gay people? Were you not reading earlier when I posted the American Psychiatric Association's statement on conversion therapy? If you had, you would have seen the part where they specifically stated that conversion therapy is the thing that causes negative psychological effects on gay people... why don't you read the information that has already been provided instead of spamming your unsupported opinions.
multisphinx...
quote:There is a lot of conjecture to what psychiatric claim as mental disorder
That may be true that they have not found an adequate definition for the term. However, there is clearly a difference between Homosexuality and Pedophilia or else they would be lumped together. Hopefully this will help you understand more:
quote:Moreover, although this manual provides a classification of mental disorders, it must be admitted that no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of "mental disorder." (emphasis mine) The concept of mental disorder, like many other concepts in medicine and science, lacks a consistent operational definition that covers all situations. All medical conditions are defined on various levels of abstraction - for example, structural pathology (e.g., ulcerative colitis), symptom presentation (e.g., migraine), deviance from a physiological norm (e.g., hypertension), and etiology (e.g., pneumococcal pneumonia). Mental disorders have also been defined by a variety of concepts (e.g., distress, dyscontrol, disadvantage, disability, inflexibility, irrationality, syndromal pattern, etiology, and statistical deviation). Each is a useful indicator for a mental disorder, but none is equivalent to the concept, and different situations call for different definitions.
So basically, while there are several indicators of a mental illness, none of them is appropriate to define what a mental disorder is. Looking at the indicators for a mental illness, homosexuality does not cause any of those symptoms, so it is not classified as a mental disorder. The only reason homosexual people may experience the above indicators is if they are discriminated against via homophobia or conversion therapy, evidence for that has been provided earlier on in this thread.
quote:A lot of their mainstream jargon is tied to Big Pharma who use the diagnosis so they can market their drugs. Do you know what happens to someone who is diagnosed with a mental disorder? They are prescribed psychotropic drugs which later create imbalances in their neuro-chemistry and makes them vulnerable to real disorders of the psyche. I personally don't believe a pedophile has a mental disorder. I think a pedophile develop their desire based off fantasies thought up in their mind. They need help but not help through drugs to create a permanent imbalance in their mind. Same thing with homosexuality it is not a disorder. It is a desire for a man to love another man sexually.
The only issue with the term mental disorder is that none of the indicators of a mental illness is appropriate to describe the term. Pedophilia could fit into: irrationality. And many other indicators for a mental illness, which is the precise reason why it is classified as a mental disorder!
As you stated in your initial post, homosexuality is completely natural. So I ask you again, do you think you could change your desires to be with someone of the same gender?? Because that is exactly what you want homosexuals to do. I know I could never change my desires to be with someone of the same sex... because I am attracted to the opposite sex, and that just won't change. Same thing applies to gay people, they know who they are attracted to and that won't change
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will stop responding to your posts since you continuously fail to grasp what you are reading:
quote:I think you misunderstood me. They choose to follow their desire for men. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself.
LOL! You said that homosexuals could make themselves could change their desires did you not? So I responded by asking you if you could force yourself to do what you are asking of homosexuals. Could you force yourself to be gay?
quote:Osarion.. I said it is not part of Nature cycle because it offers nothing to nature. Nature cycle is based off expanding its progeny. Every living thing whether from plant, animal, protazo, fungi, bacteria wants to thrive and expand its species. Homosexuality is not productive in the sence of natures cycle. So it is not natural in that sense.
Maybe it is not natural in that sense, but it is natural in the sense that it occurs without intervention. Do we really need more people in the world? The Earth can barely support the amount of people now. Notice what you said in your initial post:
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx It is a natural process for a man to grow with the desire to like another man in a sexual way ...
Hypocrite.
quote:Osarion.. I said it is not part of Nature cycle because it offers nothing to nature. Nature cycle is based off expanding its progeny. Every living thing whether from plant, animal, protazo, fungi, bacteria wants to thrive and expand its species. Homosexuality is not productive in the sence of natures cycle. So it is not natural in that sense.
My point is this. A man can desires another man sexually through ideas that pop up in his mind(fantasies). Fantasies find there way into the mind through learned experiences and information that an individual perceives from his environment. Every voluntary action you decide to make is based off an idea from the mind. The body is just a drone and our mind operates it. We have a division in the Nervous system that controls its self called the Autonomic Nervous system. The only control we have on our body is through the Somatic Nervous System(that controls our skeletal muscles *only*). So we are limited in our control over our bodies. You don't control your breathing, heart rate, GI tract, etc...
Your thoughts are developed based off learning. What you learn is based off the stimiuli you perceive through your Somatic senses(hearing, vision, pain, temperature, pressure and so on).
To make a long story short. Desires are learned mechanism in the brain and with help certain desires can controlled through therapy and self discipline.
OK... so what? You dodge the issue. For example, I am attracted to women, that is just that. I could not force myself to be attracted to men no matter how hard I try, I assume the same is true for you unless you are confused The same thing applies to gay people, they can't just force themselves to be attracted to the opposite sex if that isn't who they are
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
Desires is such an elusive concept. I believe its a learned behavior. I believe if someone was brought up in an environment where it is accepted then it will be apart of society and any person could easily develop desires to be with the same sex. If society lets it happen they people will feel no shame in choosing that desire. You can easily see how the gay population in the West is growing. Homosexuality is now promulgated in the mainstream as cool and accepted.
If we were to decide eating strawberries was evil and is the devil. Then people will try their best to avoid that desire for a strawberry. It would be a taboo in society to desire a strawberry. So if you look at that society, no one will ever admit the love for strawberries.It all depends on how society defines it.
You and I are happy to be straight because we grew up knowing that is what we are and how it should be(programing). We are disciplined enough to say no to the curiosity of our mind.
I noticed something about what you just said... [B]"I know I could never change my desires to be with someone of the same sex... because I am attracted to the opposite sex, and that just won't change. You stated that with authoritativeness as if you find it indecent by your nature... subconsciously off-coarse.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
It has nothing to do with force man. It is all incremental. Subconscious learning.
OK...
I said several things... that could create ambiguity to the reader..
So i will try to clear it up
This is what I mean by natural process. The concept of desires is a natural process in the sense of human nature. But not necessarily natural in the sense of nature/natures cycle(LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE).
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: In response to Calabooz last response
Desires is such an elusive concept. I believe its a learned behavior. I believe if someone was brought up in an environment where it is accepted then it will be apart of society and any person could easily develop desires to be with the same sex. If society lets it happen they people will feel no shame in choosing that desire. You can easily see how the gay population in the West is growing. Homosexuality is now promulgated in the mainstream as cool and accepted.
If we were to decide eating strawberries was evil and is the devil. Then people will try their best to avoid that desire for a strawberry. It would be a taboo in society to desire a strawberry. So if you look at that society, no one will ever admit the love for strawberries.It all depends on how society defines it.
You and I are happy to be straight because we grew up knowing that is what we are and how it should be(programing). We are disciplined enough to say no to the curiosity of our mind.
I noticed something about what you just said... "I know I could never change my desires to be with someone of the same sex... because I am attracted to the opposite sex, and that just won't change. You stated that with authoritativeness as if you find it indecent by your nature... subconsciously off-coarse. [/QB]
I don't really see your point... you suggested that homosexuals could control their attraction to the same sex... my stance is that they are attracted to the same sex just as we are attracted to the opposite sex. So do you think you could do what you are asking of homosexuals and change your sexual preference?
quote:You stated that with authoritativeness as if you find it indecent by your nature... subconsciously off-coarse.
Pardon me? I said that because I was making the point that I am attracted to the opposite sex just as homosexuals are attracted to the same sex. Further, that I know that I could not force myself to become a homosexual just like a homosexual can not force themselves straight
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Read my above comment.. Again... it has nothing to do with forcing one self. The mind is developed over time. Once you develop a desire over time, YOU CAN'T FORCE YOUR SELF TO CHANGE IT! I am trying to explain how someone can develop a certain desire. Desires are learned and once it becomes branded in the mind it is hard to erase.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
It has nothing to do with force man. It is all incremental. Subconscious learning.
OK...
I said several things... that could create ambiguity to the reader..
So i will try to clear it up
This is what I mean by natural process. The concept of desires is a natural process in the sense of human nature. But not necessarily natural in the sense of nature/natures cycle(LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE).
Get it? [/QB]
It is natural as long as it isn't the result of intervention, and that it happens in nature as it does among many animals....
Still doesn't change the fact that gay people are attracted to the same sex and that is just their preference. Just like you have your preference, so do they
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am not in denial that they are not attracted to the same sex and that it is their preference. Of-coarse they are because they have developed that desire over time. They were not born with it. It was not innate.
Homosexuality happens between a few animals. I gave an example the Bonobo monkey who express themselves sexually by humping any member of their tribesmen. Its in nature of animals to perform cannibalism. So what...
By the way just because i said something is human nature it does not mean... its the norm... Satanist believe that a human should fallow his/her animal instincts or in other words human instincts. So if you desire to kill another human being you are justified to do so. their dogma is 'Do as thou wilt'
You brought up the world is overly populated.. That is what you have been programmed to believe. That is not true.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: I am not in denial that they are not attracted to the same sex and that it is their preference. Of-coarse they are because they have developed that desire over time. They were not born with it. It was not innate.
Homosexuality happens between a few animals. I gave an example the Bonobo monkey who express themselves sexually by humping any member of their tribesmen. Its in nature of animals to perform cannibalism. So what...
By the way just because i said something is human nature it does not mean... its the norm... Satanist believe that a human should fallow his/her animal instincts or in other words human instincts. So if you desire to kill another human being you are justified to do so. their dogma is 'Do as thou wilt'
You brought up the world is overly populated.. That is what you have been programmed to believe. That is not true.
Show your right!
Don't fall for this 'gay is OK' propaganda being propagated by Jews to promote even more division between non-Jews. Homosexuality is not a genetic condition. Rather, it is in the majority of cases, psychological.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: I am not in denial that they are not attracted to the same sex and that it is their preference. Of-coarse they are because they have developed that desire over time. They were not born with it. It was not innate.
OK... so we agree. However, I stick to the fact that they cannot force themselves to be straight
quote:Homosexuality happens between a few animals. I gave an example the Bonobo monkey who express themselves sexually by humping any member of their tribesmen. Its in nature of animals to perform cannibalism. So what...
Don't you remember you said that Animals use sex as a means of reproduction which is true, I then said that animals practice homosexuality, so it is not unusual.
quote:By the way just because i said something is human nature it does not mean... its the norm... Satanist believe that a human should fallow his/her animal instincts or in other words human instincts. So if you desire to kill another human being you are justified to do so. their dogma is 'Do as thou wilt'
LOL! Again, there is a difference between killing somebody and sexual preference...
quote:You brought up the world is overly populated.. That is what you have been programmed to believe. That is not true.
That is a fact LOL!
quote:Show your right!
Don't fall for this 'gay is OK' propaganda being propagated by Jews to promote even more division between non-Jews. Homosexuality is not a genetic condition. Rather, it is in the majority of cases, psychological.
We have been over this. Homosexuality may not be due to a biological factor (this is still undecided) however once someone knows that they are gay the cannot just force themselves to be straight just like you could not force yourself to become gay.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: Read my above comment.. Again... it has nothing to do with forcing one self. The mind is developed over time. Once you develop a desire over time, YOU CAN'T FORCE YOUR SELF TO CHANGE IT! I am trying to explain how someone can develop a certain desire. Desires are learned and once it becomes branded in the mind it is hard to erase.
OK, here is the problem. Right now you are agreeing with me that you can't change your preference. However, earlier on you said this:
quote:Originally posted by ultisphinx: They can control that desire through rehabilitation and discipline. The same applies to a man who desires sexual intercourse with another man.
Which is the comment that sparked this entire argument. Your posts are pretty contradictory, so I'll have to ask you to make up your mind...
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Classic Doctor: I SERIOUSLY THINK PEOPLE SHOULD STOP PERSECUTING GAYS OR TREATING THEM LIKE LAB RATS.
THERE ARE ALWAYS FAR MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES TO DEAL WITH. PEOPLE SHOULD DO WHATEVER THE F THEY WANNA DO AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HARMING OTHERS.
END OF STORY.
Gays are trying to force us to teach our children that they are normal.
It is in fact a mental disorder due to perversion either naturally or artificially and this is what I will teach my children.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Yes i agree with you in that sense. But what I believe is that homosexuality is a mental desire. And because it is a desire, if someone has the urge to refrain from that desire, They can! It will take time and discipline, but it is doable.
When i brought up natures cycle and natural processes, it was to show you that homosexuality was not an innate part of mans physical biological make-up. Homosexuality is a desire that is part of their mental nature which is why they develop these thoughts and desires. Their is no homosexual gene marker trait.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Homosexuality does cause harm to the individual because they are aware of their abnormality which causes psychological distress. It is this distress that forces them to try to seek normalcy through social engineering. However, even a child knows that male and female is the normal coupling for humans by clear physical design. Homosexuals will never feel normal. If it could be cured it should and we should not simply give up and try to normalize it hoping that will reduce the harmful affects. That is only masking the symptoms.
Wow Osirion, that ignores so much of what I have already posted. Homosexuality itself does not cause psychological distress, it is homophobia that does Very early on in this thread I posted an article about the effects of homophobia on gay children. What harmful effects, Osirion? You are pulling these claims out of your ***. Why do you keep suggesting that we should try to "normalize" gay people? Were you not reading earlier when I posted the American Psychiatric Association's statement on conversion therapy? If you had, you would have seen the part where they specifically stated that conversion therapy is the thing that causes negative psychological effects on gay people... why don't you read the information that has already been provided instead of spamming your unsupported opinions.
Homosexuality is not normal and by definition makes it a mental disorder.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic