posted
As usual i only quote from ancient sources.
================================ Ancient Egyptian Sources
An ancient egyptian love poem from Papyrus Chester Beatty I from the Chester Beatty Library, physically describes the ideal beauty of egyptian females.
There are seven papyrus love poems from the Chester Beatty Library, they date from the 12th century BC; and they were collected and housed by Sir Alfred Chester Beatty in the 1930-40's.
Of concern here, is the first poem of the seven, which in some detail physically describes the ideal beauty of egyptians females. There have been two or three translations of the poem, all of which are literally the same, but here is the original [1]:
''Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist.''
This is simple evidence therefore that during the XX Dynasty of Egypt (1186-1069BC) the ancient egyptians were still known to have among them populations with white skin and light eyes, and that they believed these features were the most beautiful amongst egyptian women.
Many ancient egyptian papyrus also attribute red or blonde hair, pale or fair skin, and blue or green eyes to the ancient egyptian Gods. Before i get into these, i wish here, to simply debunk the Afrocentric lie that Osiris was a black skinned God.
In the Papyrus of Ani (made in the XIX Dynasty, 1240BC), better known as the Book of the Dead, Osiris in chapter VIII of the Hymns to Osiris is physically described as the following (translated by E. A Wallis Budge, 1895):
''Homage to thee, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and Prince of Princes... Thy members are of silver-gold, thy head is of lapis-lazuli, and the crown of thy head is turquoise...''
This ancient source seems to refute well Afrocentric nonsense about Osiris being a ''black God'', since his head or face is described as ''lapis-lazuli'' meaning blue. The skin of his body is described as ''silver-gold''. In a modern translation of the same text, which is very close to the original, ''silver-gold'' has been replaced with ''bright and shining copper'' [2]. Budge noted the following on the physical appearence of Osiris, commenting on this passage (1895, p. 353):
''[His] body was of the colour of silver-gold, whose face had the colour of lapis-lazuli (blue) and whose skull was green in colour.''
Osiris was therefore certianly not considered to be a black skinned God, and Budge believed his body skin colour was a silver-goldish, which is not a dark colour. In the same work, it is also well recorded in the Papyrus of Ani, that there are numerous descriptions of red hair and blue eyes. These features are related to several Gods. In the chapter entitled Pylons of The House of Osiris for example, Pylon XV, states ''fiend, red of hair'', perhaps a reference to the God Set.
In the non-Papyrus of Ani edition of the Book of the Dead which predates Budge's publication, there are far more physical descriptions of ancient egyptian Gods. Edouard Naville published what was to become the first full standard edition in three volumes (1886). In Naville's edition of the Book of the Dead, spell CXLVIII (148) is dedicated to a redhead egyptian Goddess: "The much beloved, with red hair." [3]
Spell CLXXVII (177) mentions the ''blue eyes of Horus''.
The blue eyes of Horus are also found mentioned in the Coffin Texts (2100BC) and the Pyramid Texts (2300BC), and the Eye of Horus or Wedjat is described as green:
Pyramid Texts, Utterance 246: 253a: ''He comes against you, Horus with blue eyes.''
Pyramid Texts, Utterance 162: ''Osiris Unas, take the green Eye of Horus!''
Coffin Texts, II. 467: ''I knit on the head of the Blue-eyed Horus, one who acts.''
The egyptian God Re, is also described as blue eyed:
Coffin Texts, II. 586: ''Hail to you, O Re, wearing your circlet! May you proceed to the councel chamber and reckon up your fathers who whatch for him who destroys doubles. O Blue-eyed one who freshens eyes, whose power is severe.'' [4]
A fragment from an ancient papyrus found at Thebes also notes on Horus' eye colour as that of the ''Great Sea'', the ''deepest blue'' (Ancient Egyptian Legends, M. A. Murray, 1920, p. 57):
''Meanwhile Ra said to Horus: "Let me gaze into your eyes, and see what is to come of this war." He gazed into the eyes of Horus and their color was that of the Great Sea when the summer sky turns it to deepest blue.''
Blue eyes are mostly only found amongst Caucasians, especially northern europeans.
Also remember these are quotes from the earliest ancient egyptian texts describing blue eyed Gods (Horus and Ra).
Further physical descriptions of hair colours and skin complexions, are also found in other ancient egyptian papyrus. In the ancient egyptian Papyrus Bremner-Rhind (BM Papyrus No. 10188), which dates to the 4th century BC, the seven Hathors are named, the Hathors were mythological egyptian maidens, number five of the maidens is named ''Red hair''. [5] An egyptian physician is described as the ''fair skinned son'' of Osiris in the egyptian Leyden Papyrus (Column II), though this source is far later than the other ancient papyrus cited, and dates to the 3rd century AD. In the much earlier Papyrus Leiden I 344 (1200BC), which preserves the ancient egyptian poem ''The Admonitions of Ipuwer'', chapter I, several ancient egyptian men are described as having white skinned faces:
''Indeed, the face is white [. . .] what the ancestors foretold has arrived at [fruition . . .] the land is full of confederates, and a man goes to plough with his shield. Indeed, the meek say: ["He who is . . . of] face is as a well-born man." Indeed, [the face] is white; the bowman is ready, wrongdoing is everywhere, and there is no man of yesterday.''
Horus, and Re are always described as having white or fair skin, Hathor having gold, while Set and Isis reddish-white or ruddy. Horus is described and depicted as white skinned in the Book of the Dead of Lady Cheritwebeshet (XXI Dynasty, 1000BC), found in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, location: #129). The maidens who surround Horus, also appear as white skinned.
It would be impossible here to find every other single quote from ancient egyptian papyrus which details the complexions of Gods, but on well known ancient egyptian steles, various descriptions of skin complexions can also be found. A stele inscription from Denderah, describes Isis as red skinned: ''ruddy woman, endowed with life, sweet of love''. [6] In a Third Intermediate Period (XXV Dynasty, 700BC) hymn, recorded on the Louvre stela C100, there is a description of an egyptian priestess of the period called Muturdis [7]:
''Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna''
So here is a physcial description of an egyptian priestess in the 8th century BC, she is described as black haired with red skinned cheeks. The best explanation for ''red skin'' here is not that it relates to a sunburnt hue, but to pale skin, since it is talking only of the cheek, only under pale white skin can the blood for red or rosy cheeks appear. The ancient egyptian princess of the IV Dynasty (2500BC), Nefertiabet is described as beautiful and ''fair skinned'' on another stele at louvre, stele E15591. On this stele a depiction of the princess also shows her to be pale white skinned, with a slight radiant golden glow.
Two other ancient texts are also worth quoting here, which shall end this section nicely before i progress onto ancient Greek sources. The first of these, is a physical description of Nefertiti (XVIII Dynasty, 1350BC) from El-Amarna (Stela S) which describes her as ''Fair of Face'' meaning she was believed to be light skinned. [8]
A similar description can be found of Nitocris, the last pharaoh of the VI Dynasty (2184BC) but with added documentation that she had blonde hair. The single Egyptian Manetho in the 3rd century BC, in his Aegyptiaca (History of Egypt), described Nitocris as the following(Aegyptiaca, Frg. 20-21; Manetho, Frg. 21a; Syncellus quoting Eusebius, FGrH 609 F 3) [9] :
''Nitocris, the noblest and loveliest of woman of her time, of fair complexion, the builder of the third pyramid, reigned for 12 years.''
Since the Aegyptiaca, has not come down to us complete, all we have is preserved fragments from later historians and chroniclers such as Josephus, Eusebius, Jerome, and George Syncellus. An Armenian translation of Eusebius' copy of the Aegyptiaca adds that Nitocris was blonde haired, as does the Latin translation by Jerome, though there are two alternative translations here, one excludes the blonde hair but maintains her fair skin, while the revised and most recent translation in 1875 includes the blonde (Aegyptiaca, Frg. 21b, Armenian and Latin version):
''Sexta dynastia. Femina quaedam Nitocris reg-navit, omnium aetatis suae virorum fortissima et mulierum formosissima, flava rubris genis. Ab hac tertia pyramis excitata dicitur, speciem collis prae se ferens'' Old Translation:
''The Sixth Dynasty. There was a queen Nitocris, braver than all the men of her time, the most beautiful of all the women, fair skinned with red cheeks. By her, it is said, the third pyramid was reared, with the aspect of a mountain.''
''A woman by the name of Nitocris ruled next. It is said that she was braver than any man of her day and more beautiful than any contemporary woman, blonde haired and red cheeked. The third pyramid is said to have been built by her.''
This last translation is probably the correct, based on the fact ''Flava'' (Latin) having been a reference to blonde/light coloured hair, not fair skin, and ''rubris genis'' meaning red/ruddy cheeks (genis = cheeks, rubris = red). Nitocris was therefore blonde haired with red cheeks, certianly this is a physical description only applicable to a white female.
Notes:
[1] The Library of A. Chester Beatty, Description of a Hieratic Papyrus with a Mythological Story, Love-Songs, and Other Miscelleaneous Texts. The Chester Beatty Papyri, No. I, London, 1931 by Alan Gardiner. [2] http://www.touregypt.net/osirhymn.htm [3] The Ancient Egyptian book of the Dead, Carol Andrews, 1990, p. 137 [4] The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts, Spells 355-788 v. II, Faulkner, 1978. [5] The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Routledge 2005, p. 67. [6] De Iside et Osiride, J. G. Griffiths, 1970, p. 451. [7] A History of Egypt, 6 vols. (1894-1925) by W. M. Flinders Petrie (III, p. 293). [8] The Boundary Stelae of Akhenaten , William J. Murnane, 1993. [9] Manetho, Loeb Classical Library, 1940, p. 54-57. =========================
Ancient Greek Sources
It is most commonly believed that Herodotus was the first Greek to physically describe the ancient egyptians. However he wasn't, there is in fact an elder source from Hesiod (700BC).
From the Catalogues of Women by Hesiod (Frg. 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358 fr. 2):
''The Sons of Boreas pursued the Harpies to the lands of the Massagetae and of the proud Half-Dog men, of the Underground-folk and of the feeble Pygmies; and to the tribes of the boundless Black-skins and the Libyans. Huge Earth bare these to Epaphus -- soothsaying people, knowing seercraft by the will of Zeus the lord of oracles, but deceivers, to the end that men whose thought passes their utterance might be subject to the gods and suffer harm -- Aethiopians and Libyans and mare-milking Scythians. For verily Epaphus was the child of the almighty Son of Cronos, and from him sprang the dark Libyans, and high-souled Aethiopians, and the Underground-folk and feeble Pygmies.''
This is one of the earliest ancient Greek quotes, if not the earliest, on ethnology. Several things are important to learn here:
1. Hesiod distingushed between the different races of Africa. The Libyans were considered to be ''dark'' but not ''black skins'', so their complexion was believed to be lighter then the black aethiopians. 2. The Libyans (North Africans) of Hesiod included the Egyptians. 3. Hesiod believed the Libyans (which included Egyptians) were not blacks.
Hesiod clearly distinguished between the North Africans and South Africans, both he knew had different phenotypes, Afrocentrics on the other hand maintain that all of Africa was ''black'' in BC times, clearly this was not the case - as the ancient Greeks themselves knew.
Now, on to Herodotus.
A quote very few seem to have noticed from Herodotus, is a quote on ancient egyptian hair (Histories, II, 36. 1) [1]:
''Everywhere else, priests of the gods wear their hair long; in Egypt, they are shaven. For all other men, the rule in mourning for the dead is that those most nearly concerned have their heads shaven; Egyptians are shaven at other times, but after a death they let their hair and beard grow.''
According to Herodotus the ancient egyptians shaved their heads. I will adress the importance of this quote below. Afrocentrics quote also the following passage, typically misunderstanding it's context (Histories, II. 57. 1-2):
''I expect that these women were called “doves” by the people of Dodona because they spoke a strange language, and the people thought it like the cries of birds; then the woman spoke what they could understand, and that is why they say that the dove uttered human speech; as long as she spoke in a foreign tongue, they thought her voice was like the voice of a bird. For how could a dove utter the speech of men? The tale that the dove was black signifies that the woman was Egyptian''
This passage is not saying the egyptians were black, all that can be read from this passage is that Herodotus used ''black doves'' symbolically.
There is no mention of skin here, any Afrocentric using this as evidence the ancient egyptians were black is altering the context.
There is no proof the colour symbolism here relates to black skin.
This final quote from Herodotus, is the quote all Afrocentrics use (Histories, II. 104. 2):
''...the Colchians are Egyptians... on the fact that they are black-skinned and wooly-haired''
Histories, II. 36. 1, however contradicts the above claim, did the ancient egyptians have shaved heads or wooly hair?
Since there is a major contradiction here, Herodotus therefore is not a trustworthy source on the physical appearence of the egyptians.
J. Wells in his A Commentary on Herodotus on book II, came exactly to this conclusion on this passage, remarking:
''As the Egyptians themselves shaved wholly or in part (36. 1 n.), the ‘woolly hair’ is the more inexplicable.''
Herodotus' identification of the colchians as egyptians because of their black skin, is also contradicted by other ancient greek sources, most notebly Hippocrates.
According to Hippocrates, the 5th century BC Physician, the Colchian Phasians were yellowish skinned, not dark or black, this is detailed in his De aere aquis et locis, chapter XV [2]:
''They are tall in stature, and of a gross habit of body, while neither joint nor vein is visible. Their complexion is yellowish, as though they suffered from jaundice.''
Other revisionists and scholars have also correctly noted the ancient greek term for dark skin melanchrôs is a semi-ambigious word since it can range from meaning a bronze hue, to a sun tan, to swarthy or very dark skin when applied to egyptians (see Aeschylus, Suppliament Women, 720, Lucian and D. L, VII. 1). Herodotus therefore according to this theory, could have just described sunburnt ancient egyptians. I do not personally subscribe to this view, but this could be a possible answer to the problem.
Whatever the case, the Colchians were not considered a black skinned people, that is apart from Herodotus.
Some Afrocentrics, quote Pindar (Pythian Ode, IV. 212) which they say describes the Colchians as ''dark faced'', however scholars have noted the correct translation is ''grim-faced'', which fits the context of the passage (Braswell, 1988). The context does not relate to skin colour. [3]
I will now cite some ancient sources describing the Colchians as white skinned and blonde haired, Apollonius of Rhodes in his Argonautica described Medea, the daughter of King Aeetes of Colchis as blonde (Argonautica, III. 829):
''Now soon as ever the maiden saw the light of dawn, with her hands she gathered up her long blonde locks which were floating round her shoulders in careless disarray''
However, better physical descriptions of Medea, can be found in Euripide's tragedy play Medea (431BC). Remember Medea was a native Colchian and the daughter of the King of Colchis.In verse 30 of Euripides' Medea, Medea is described as having a white skinned neck: ''she is silent unless perchance to turn her snow-white neck and weep to herself for her dear father and her country and her ancestral house'', in verse 920 also when Jason adresses Medea she is described as white cheeked: ''You there, why do you dampen your eyes with pale tears and turn your white cheek away, and why are you not pleased to hear these words from me?''
The Colchians were therefore not black skinned, since this is easily provable with ancient literature, now i will move on and cite some other ancient Greek sources which physically describe the egyptians or their Gods.
The ancient Greek geographer Strabo of the 1st century BC, described the egyptians as resembling northern Indians, who were lighter then the darker skinned Indians of the south (Geographica, XV. 1. 13):
''As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.''
A later Greek source then Strabo, describes some egyptian females as snow-white skinned. This dates to the 3rd century AD, and is apart of the Alexander Romance collection, and is ascribed to Pseudo-Callisthenes. It notes some egyptians as being of ''snow-white complexion'' (colore niveo), apparently Alexander's troops encountered these woman from their return from India.
Diodorus Siculus noted on the blue eyes of the egyptian Goddess Neith (Bibliotheca Historica, I. 12. 6-8), as well as recorded a tradition of a ''rosy-cheeked'' fair skinned woman who ordered the construction of the third pyramid.
This tradition obviously derived from the egyptian Nitocris, it however seems to have become altered, as Rhodopis was given a Thracian origin (Bibliotheca Historica, I. 64. 14; XVII, 1. 33, Herodotus, II. 134. 3, Strabo also wrote on Rhodopis). These ancient Greek sources seem to reflect then a continuation of the red cheeked, white female pharoah Nitocris (2184BC).
A final quote from Philostratus II (2nd century AD) can end this section nicely, according to Philostratus, the skin of the egyptians of his period was lighter then the aethiopians and nubians (Life of Apollonius, VI. 2) [4]:
''Those who live at the border in the interior are not quite black, but all of the same colour, less black than the Aithiopians but blacker than the Egyptians.''
Notes [1] Translation by A. D. Godley, 1920. [2] Hippocrates Collected Works I, W. H. S. Jones, Harvard University Press, 1868. [3] A commentary on the fourth Pythian ode of Pindar, Bruce Karl Braswell, 1988. [4] Translated by Tomas Hagg, Fontes Historiae Nubiorum III, p. 962-964.
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Ancient Roman Sources
Finally some ancient Roman sources which physically describe the ancient egyptians, first starting with Pliny the Elder, the natural philosopher who wrote Naturalis Historia in 77AD.
Afrocentrics repeatedly claim the face of the Great Sphinx at Giza, has black features.
These claims have already been debunked on numerous sites i have already seen, but relevant here is a quote from Pliny on the skin colour of the face of the Great Sphinx (Naturalis Historia, 36. 17):
''In front of these pyramids is the Sphinx... the truth is, however, that it was hewn from the solid rock; and, from a feeling of veneration, the face of the monster is coloured red.''
According to Pliny the face of the Sphinx was painted red, not black.
Pliny also knew the skin of the Egyptians during his time, 1st century AD, was closest to northern Indians (VI. 70).
Manilius and Arrian also wrote something very similar, comparing the egyptians to northern Indians and not the blackness of the aethiopians:
''The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.''
- Manilius, Astronomica, IV. 724
''The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.''
- Arrian, Indica, VI. 9
From Plutarch in the 1st century AD (the Romanised Greek neo-Platonist), we are provided several physical descriptions of the egyptian Gods (Isis and Osiris, 359e, XXII):
''The Egyptians, in fact, have a tradition that Hermes had thin arms and big elbows, that Typhon was red in complexion, Horus white, and Osiris dark.''
364b, XXXIII of the same work adds:
''Therefore, because they believe Typhon was personally of a reddish sallow colour, they are not eager to meet men of such complexion, nor do they like to associate with them. Osiris, on the other hand, according to their legendary tradition, was dark, because water darkens everything, earth and clothes and clouds, when it comes into contact with them.'' 363e, XXXI states:
''The Egyptians, because of their belief that Typhon was of a red complexion, also dedicate to sacrifice such of their neat cattle as are of a red colour, but they conduct the examination of these so scrupulously that, if an animal has but one hair black or white, they think it wrong to sacrifice it''
362f, XXX also notes that Typhon had red hair:
''Typhon had red hair and in colour resembled an ass.''
Typhon's egyptian equivilant was the God Set (who has already been noted briefly, and was considered to be red-haired also by the egyptians themselves).
Set was therefore a red haired and ruddy skinned God.
Horus according to Plutarch was white skinned, while Osiris ''dark''.
The dark here, is certianly not black since Plutarch states Osiris was called dark because of the colour of water, which is blue. This seems to relate well to the description of Osiris, in the already cited Papyrus of Ani as Lapis lazuli (blue) faced.
None of the ancient egyptians Gods were then considered to be black or dark brown skinned by the ancient greeks.
The 4th century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (XXII. 16. 23) described the skin of the egyptians during his time as ''somewhat swarthy'' (subfusucli), meaning they were probably considered to be somewhat brownish, certianly though not so dark or black skinned. Marcellinus also added that blood showed under their skin, which meant their skin must have been fairly light, as hemoglobin does not appear under dark skin.
The Roman physician Galen of the 2nd century AD, described the hair of the egyptians as (De Temperamentis, II. 5):
‘‘The hair of Egyptians, Arabs, Indians, and of general all peoples who inhabit hot, dry places, has poor growth and is black, dry, curly and brittle.''
This translation here, certianly means curly and NOT wooly. The black aethiopians here were diliberately excluded by Galen, as they were known to have wooly hair, not curly hair during his period of time. Galen then knew the egyptians were not black.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Just desperate to change facts that have been settled a long time ago. Just look at how the AEs portrayed themselves on their murals. Clearly African black. I just don't see what the big deal is. If the AEs were not African black that would not change anything in the world today. I look at things objectively and the conclusion of any rational person would be that the AEs were African black. Simple and no big deal.
Champollion--of Rosetta Stone fame--saw thousands and thousands of AE representations and even he had to conclude that the AEs were African black and akin to the Beja of Sudanic Africa.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Practically ALL of this b.s. was refuted ages ago in this forum which is why nobody bothered to address again.
Take this poem for instance:
''Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist.''
The poem is a description of the celestial goddess Nut who is the color of stars so of course she is "white" but that does not mean such was the typical color for Egyptian women or people! LOL It's funny how pretty much ALL Euronuts hold on to that one single poem as proof but not the countless of other Egyptian poems describing the ideal skin color which is jasper i.e. dark reddish brown! Also notice the very last part of the poem speaks of "heavy buttocks" of course this is in reference to steatopygia or big booty which is a common trait among Africans. LOL
Also the skin colors of gods varies and were symbolic of their function. For example the only deities who were 'white' or pale are lunar or astral deities who were the color of the moon and stars. Many cultures of people of color had the same depictions it didn't mean their gods were white in a 'racial' sense LOL Some Egyptian gods were depicted blue, others green, and some completely red. These were inhuman colors for inhuman beings.
The god Ausar (Osiris) is usually depicted green to symbolize vegetation and land but was also depicted as black to represent his divinity and sacred kingship. Thus Ausar had the epithet Kem-Wer meaning 'Great Black'
Even the eye color of the gods was portrayed in (to the Egyptians) unearthly colors like blue and green. Even today in many African societies it is believed that gods and demons had eyes of varying colors like blue, green, yellow etc.!
Oh and definitely there were no Egyptian deities with blonde or red hair, not even brown hair. ALL had the typical Egyptian black hair.
Notice the idiot's rantings were mainly descriptions of deities and not the people. He is pathetic.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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IIRC, some African groups such as the Igbo of Nigeria use "white" or "pale" to describe black people with relatively fair skin. It doesn't always mean "white" as in European.
Recent studies find the ancient Egyptians had a tropical body plan like sub-Saharan 'black' Africans and were not cold-adapted like European type populations. Tropical body plans also indicate darker-skin.
QUOTE: "The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
Limb length data from the north, groups with Africans rather than with Europeans
"Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. Mean femur length in males from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were longer than at the other sites shown, but again, the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the impression of an African rather than Levantine affinity."
a 2008 Study puts the ancient Egyptians closer to US Blacks than whites:
Quotes:
"Intralimb (crural and brachial) indices are significantly higher in ancient Egyptians than in American Whites (except crural index among females), i.e., Egyptians have relatively longer distal segments (Table 4). Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks... Many of those who have studied ancient Egyptians have commented on their characteristically ''tropical'' or ''African'' body plan (Warren, 1897; Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983; Robins and Shute, 1983, 1984, 1986; Zakrzewski, 2003). Egyptians also fall within the range of modern African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well, at least for the crural index (brachial indices are definitely more ''African'').. In terms of femoral and tibial length to total skeletal height proportions, we found that ancient Egyptians are significantly different from US Blacks, although still closer to Blacks than to Whites.
Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range. In general, recent studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians support scenarios of biological continuity through time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the presence of a few outliers but concluding that the dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous and that the affinities observed indicate overall biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.
Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation. She also concluded that while the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the stature estimation formulae developed here may be broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian populations.." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55
Older limb studies find the same:
"In this regard it is interesting to note that limb proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans.....skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics." (C.L. Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..")
"An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material... When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed "super-negroid"...
Robins (1983) and Robins & Shute (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained from ancient Egyptian male skeletons if Trotter & Gleser formulae for negro are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. .. their physical proportions were more like modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal segments that were long compared with the proximal segments. If ancient Egyptian males had what may be termed negroid proportions, it seems reasonable that females did likewise." (Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986. Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions. Hum Evol 1:313-324. Ruff CB. 1994.)
The ancient Badarians were quite representative of ancient Egyptians as a whole and showed clear links with tropical Africans to the south. They have been sometimes excluded in studies of the ancient Egyptian population, which shows continuity in its history, not mass influxes of foreigners until the late periods.
Quotes: "As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).
These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.
This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment. (Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)
Ancient Egyptians most related to other Africans and are part of a Nilotic continuity rather than something Mediterranean or Middle Eastern
"Certainly there was some foreign admixture [in Egypt], but basically a homogeneous African population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient to modern times... [the] Badarian people, who developed the earliest Predynastic Egyptian culture, already exhibited the mix of North African and Sub-Saharan physical traits that have typified Egyptians ever since (Hassan 1985; Yurco 1989; Trigger 1978; Keita 1990.. et al.,)... The peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East African Ethiopia and Somalia are now generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types) but with powerful common cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions.." (Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review," 1996 -in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, Black Athena Revisited, 1996, The University of North Carolina Press, p. 62-100)
African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. Attempts to deny this are rooted in racism and error. African people, particularly SUB-SAHARAN Africans, vary the most in how they look, more so than any other population in the world.
"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals into regional aggregates. This method can potentially bias results if there are differences in population substructure within regions, since increased variation among local populations could inflate regional diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional diversity is to compute the mean diversity within local populations. Both methods are applied to a global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57 measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia, and the Americas. Each region is represented by three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
"The living peoples of the African continent are diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color, hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one set of characteristics is more African than another. Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously restricted. There is a problem with definitions. Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors, like language, that exclude developments that clearly arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded because of geography and language and the fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and faces.
However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria, and its languages are African. The latitude of 15 degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient Egyptians in some writings have been de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches." (S. Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105. [10])
Modern DNA studies find even though some African peoples look different, they are genetically related through the PN2 transition clade of the Y-chromosone. Haplogroup E links numerous peoples together even though they don't look exactly the same.
"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them." (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
"Recall that the Horn-Nile Valley crania show, as a group, the largest overlap with other regions. A review of the recent literature indicates that there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ''racially'' different, with ''racially'' implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.." (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.) keita2004neanalysis.htm
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." (Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
DNA of some modern Egyptians found a genetic ancestral heritage to East Africa: "The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." (Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt 1):23-39.)
Tishkoff et al on Africa having the most genetic diversity:
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages (see online link to Ethnologue). Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world(TABLE 1).However,most studies report only a few markers in divergent African populations, which makes it difficult to draw general conclusions about the levels and patterns of genetic diversity in these populations (FIG. 1). Because genetic studies have been biased towards more economically developed African countries that have key research or medical centres, populations from more underdeveloped or politically unstable regions of Africa remain undersampled (FIG. 1). Historically, human population genetic studies have relied on one or two African populations as being representative of African diversity, but recent studies show extensive genetic variation among even geographically close African populations, which indicates that there is not a single 'representative' African population." -- Tishkoff NATURE REVIEWS | GENETICS VOLUME 3 | AUGUST 2002
"Genetic studies that attempt to recover the biological history of the species have generally found that there is a split between their restricted African samples and "the rest of the world." These approaches conceptualize human population history as a series of bifurcations with each node being relatively uniform. The "Africans" usually used are either the short statured Aka or Mbuti, Khoisan speakers, or West African stereotype s, in keeping with a socially, not scientifically constructed concept of African. Studies using individuals as the unit of analysis evince a different pattern. A select subset of Africans called the "group of 49" forms a unit versus the rest of humankind. However the latter individuals ("rest of humankind") also includes non-East African sub-Saharans. Hence there is no "racial" split. As has been stated, the idea that human variation can be described as being structured by subspecies(races) that are treated as lineages is fundamentally false. In actuality, also, although averages are used, the gene studies usually give us histories that are not necessarily the same as population histories." Writing African History Chapter 4, Physical Anthropology and African History, Shomarka Keita University of Rochester Press p.134
Continent wide African DNA linkages "The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West Africa among the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in North Africa among the Maure, Hausa, Fulbe, and others; in Central Africa among the Bamileke, Fali, and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan family including the Khwe and Bantu speakers; and in East Africa among the Kikuyu. Closely related variants are observed among the Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the East African Dinka and Somali." (-- Bert Ely , Jamie Lee Wilson , Fatimah Jackson and Bruce A Jackson. (2006). African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC Biology 2006, 4:34)
"It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are united by a mutation - the PN2 transition. This PN2 defined clade originated in East Africa, where various populations have a notable frequency of its underived state. This would suggest that an ancient population in East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations - and their subsequent descendants in the present day." (--Bengston, John D. (ed.), In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp. 3-16)
Egyptian Y-chromosome haplotypes show preponderance is with African clusters not Europe or the Near East
Recent DNA studies of the Sudan show genetic unity and linkage between the Sudanic, Horn, Egyptian, Nubian and other Nilotic peoples, confirming earlier skeletal/cranial studies and historical data. (Yurco (1989, 1996), Keita (1993,2004, 2005) Lovell (1999), Zakrewski (2003, 2007) et. al). Of note is that DNA data shows that some peoples linked to one of the oldest Egyptian populations, the original Copts, have a significant frequency of the B-M60 marker, indicating early colonization of Egypt by Nilotics in the state formation period.
QUOTES:
"Haplogroup E-M78, however, is more widely distributed and is thought to have an origin in eastern African. More recently, this haplogroup has been carefully dissected and was found to depict several well-established subclades with defined geographical clustering (Cruciani et al., 2006, 2007). Although this haplogroup is common to most Sudanese populations, it has exceptionally high frequency among populations like those of western Sudan (particularly Darfur) and the Beja in eastern Sudan... Although the PC plot places the Beja and Amhara from Ethiopia in one sub-cluster based on shared frequencies of the haplogroup J1, the distribution of M78 subclades (Table 2) indicates that the Beja are perhaps related as well to the Oromo on the basis of the considerable frequencies of E-V32 among Oromo in comparison to Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2007)...
These findings affirm the historical contact between Ethiopia and eastern Sudan (1998), and the fact that these populations speak languages of the Afroasiatic family tree reinforces the strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity (Cavalli-Sforza, 1997)."
"Genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by comparable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade among southern Egyptians." [Hassan et al. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy Anthro. v137,3. 316-323
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology." Source: (Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008). Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology, 2008. Volume 137 Issue 3, Pages 316 - 323)
Older research notes the physical makeup of the original Copts, now confirmed by recent DNA data above: "In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")
Haplogroup E3A and E3B represent more than 70% of the Y-chromosones on the African continent, with varying proportions found in different parts of the continent. In some African populations for example, E3B exceeds 80%. Migrations out of Africa, are responsible for the spread of E3b to Europe. Non-Africans thus acquired a sub-set f African genes through this migration.
"In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis of a uniform spread of people from a single parental Near Eastern population... The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa. On the whole, these two clades represent more than 70% of the Y chromosomes of the African continent. A third clade belonging to E3 (E3c or E-M329) has been recently reported to be present only in eastern Africa, at low frequencies.. The new topology of the E3 haplogroup is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently found in sub-Saharan Africa."
"In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78d chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78? and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78ß), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78a). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe."
(Cruciani, F, et. al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am J Hum Genet. 74(5): 1014-1022.)
Somalis link much more heavily with African populations such as those in Kenya and Ethiopia than Middle Eastern or European ones according to DNA evidence. Eurasian genes only accounted for about 15% of the mix among Somalis, typically associated with recent Arab influence. On such key common DNA markers as E3b1, Europeans only weighed in at 5%, and Middle Easterners at approximately 6%. The overwhelming link of Somalis- over 85% of the total is with Africans. Kenya and Ethiopia are located in "sub-Saharan" Africa.
"The high frequency (77.6%) of haplogroup E3b1 was characteristic of male Somalis. The frequency of E3b1 was significantly lower in Ethiopian Oromos (35.9%), Ethiopian Amharas (22.9%), Egyptians (20.0%), Sudanese (17.5%), Kenyans (15.1%),10 Iraqis (6.3%), Northern Africans (6.1%), Southern Europeans (0.5-5.1%) and sub-Saharan populations." (Sanchez et al.,(2005) High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males, Eu J of Hum Genet (2005) 13, 856-866)
Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003).
"These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999)." [Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]
Data on Ethiopian peoples like the Oromo are underreported even though they make up the largest group percentage wise in the Ethiopian population, (50%) and are often pooled with others, hiding and obscuring their overall contribution to the Ethiopian gene pool.
"This difference, not revealed in the study by Passarino et al. (1998), in which the Oromo were underrepresented, might reflect distinct population histories." (--Semino, et al. (2002). Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y..")
"These data, together with those reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a, 1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197-1214. "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes)
"An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,”.. but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions." --CL Brace, 1993
[Afrocentric critic Mary Leftokwitz says Egypt was peopled by persons from sub-Saharan Africa:
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54. (Mary Lefkotitz (1997). Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History. Basic Books. pg 242) [/QB][/QUOTE]
In Black Athena Revisited, Lefkowitz finds similarity between Egyptians and Sudanics and recommends the work of conservative anthropologist Nancy Lovell for more research on the subject.
Quote: "not surprisingly, the Egyptian skulls were not very distance from the Jebel Moya [a Neolithic site in the southern Sudan] skulls, but were much more distance from all others, including those from West Africa. Such a study suggests a closer genetic affinity between peoples in Egypt and the northern Sudan, which were close geographically and are known to have had considerable cultural contact throughout prehistory and pharaonic history... Clearly more analyses of the physical remains of ancient Egyptians need to be done using current techniques, such as those of Nancy Lovell at the University of Alberta is using in her work.."
Lefkotitz cites Keita 1993 in Not Out of Africa. Here is Keita on the Jebel Moya studies?
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." [/img] S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54
Hereis the work of the anthropologist so strongly recommended by Lefkowitz, Nancy Lovell:
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
and
"must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)
Obviously, this shows that the Egyptians were completely white, and how foolish the Afrocentrists are to reject this notion. After all Afrocentric critic Mary Lefkowitz recommends Lovell's research..
The same Nancy Lovell recommended by Lefkowitz studied dental traits among some high status persons of the key Egyptian Naqada group and found that they resembled the peoples of Nubia.
T. Prowse, and N. Lovell "Concordance of cranial and dental morphological traits and evidence for endogamy in ancient Egypt" American journal of physical anthropology. 1996, vol. 101, no2, pp. 237-246 (2 p.1/4)
A biological affinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at Predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphological analysis. Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individuals buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently non-elite cemeteries and that the non-elite samples are not significantly different from each other. A comparison with neighboring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighboring populations in southern Egypt.
Lefkowitz warns against Eurocentric "racial" analysis as to the Egyptians and Nubians.
Quote: "The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
Northern Egypt shows more physical variation than the south, but not necessarily as part of any significant 'race' mix, but local, built-in variation. They were closer to southerners than any other peoples. In comparisons with "Middle Eastern" populations of the same ancient period, the Egyptians link more closely with other Africans than the Middle Easterners. Africans vary in how they look because they have the highest built-in molecular diversity to begin with.
QUOTE(s): "..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
"Individuals from different geographical regions frequently plotted near each other, revealing aspects of variation at the level of individuals that is obscured by concentrating on the most distinctive facial traits once used to construct ''types.''The high level of African interindividual variation in craniometric pattern is reminiscent of the great level of molecular diversity found in Africa." (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.)
Quote on northern Egypt analysis- the Qarunian (Faiyum) remains (c. 7000 BC) "The body was that of a forty-year old woman with a height of about 1.6 meters, who was of a more modern racial type than the classic 'Mechtoid' of the Fakhurian culture (see pp. 65-6), being generally more gracile, having large teeth and thick jaws bearing some resemblance to the modern 'negroid' type." (Beatrix Midant-Reynes, Ian Shaw (2000). The Prehistory of Egypt. Wiley-Blackwell. pg. 82)
Modern studies show diversity in how people look is heavily based on distance from sub-Saharan Africa, not merely climate. In genetically diverse Africa, broad-nosed people live on the cool or cold mountain slopes of East Africa or the hot, dry Sahara, and narrow-nosed peoples like many Fulani like in the wet tropics of West Africa. Yellowish-skinned San tribes live in the hot zones of Southern Africa.
"The relative importance of ancient demography and climate in determining worldwide patterns of human within-population phenotypic diversity is still open to debate. Several morphometric traits have been argued to be under selection by climatic factors, but it is unclear whether climate affects the global decline in morphological diversity with increasing geographical distance from sub-Saharan Africa. Using a large database of male and female skull measurements, we apply an explicit framework to quantify the relative role of climate and distance from Africa. We show that distance from sub-Saharan Africa is the sole determinant of human within-population phenotypic diversity, while climate plays no role. By selecting the most informative set of traits, it was possible to explain over half of the worldwide variation in phenotypic diversity. These results mirror those previously obtained for genetic markers and show that 'bones and molecules' are in perfect agreement for humans." (Distance from Africa, not climate, explains within-population phenotypic diversity in humans. (2008) by: Lia Betti, François Balloux, William Amos, Tsunehiko Hanihara, Andrea Manica, Proceedings B: Biological Sciences, 2008/12/02)
Analysis of skeletal and cranial remains reveals that the ancient Egyptians of the early Dynastic and pre-Dynastic phases, link closer to nearby Saharan, Sudanic and East African populations than Mediterranean and Middle Eastern peoples. Greeks, Romans, Hyskos, Arabs and others were to appear later in Egyptian history. Craniometric studies generally place ancient Upper Egyptian populations closer to the range of tropical Africans in the Nile Valley and East Africa than to Mediterraneans, or Middle Easterners.
QUOTE(s): S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)
"When the unlikely relationships [Indian matches] and eliminated, the Egyptian series are more similar overall to other African series than to European or Near Eastern (Byzantine or Palestinian) series." (Keita 1993)
"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )
"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology... In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"
"The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in both group and unknown analyses... Archaeology and history seem to provide the most parsimonious explanation for the variation in the royal tombs at Abydos.. Tomb design suggests the presence of northerners in the south in late Nakada times (Hoffman, 1988) when the unification probably took place. Delta names are attached to some of the tombs at Abydos (Gardiner, 1961; Yurco, 1990, personal communication), thus perhaps supporting Petrie's (1939) and Gardiner's contention that north-south marriages were undertaken to legitimize the hegemony of the south. The courtiers of northern elites would have accompanied them.
Given all of the above, it is probably not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population of the time. Southern elites and/or their descendants eventually came to be buried in the north (Hoffman, 1988). Hence early Second Dynasty kings and Djoser (Dynasty 111) (Hayes, 1953) and his descendants are not buried in Abydos. Petrie (1939) states that the Third Dynasty, buried in the north, was of Sudanese origin, but southern Egypt is equally likely. This perhaps explains Harris and Weeks' (1973) suggested findings of southern morphologies in some Old Kingdom Giza remains, also verified in portraiture (Drake, 1987). Further study would be required to ascertain trends in the general population of both regions. The strong Sudanese affinity noted in the unknown analyses may reflect the Nubian interactions with upper Egypt in predynastic times prior to Egyptian unification (Williams, 1980,1986)..." (S. Keita (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)
"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline. (Barry Kemp. (2006) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54)
Gene flow into the Nubian area during the Neolithic was not from reputed "wandering Caucasoids" but from tropical, Sub-Saharan types.
"Prior to the Neolithic, populations of the Nile Valley in Nubia are very robust, and, because of a gap in the fossil record, it is difficult to connect them to later populations. Some have postulated a local evolution, due to diet change, while others postulated migrations, especially from the Sahara area. But between 5000 and 1000 BC, many cemeteries have supplied a large amount of skeletons, and the anatomical characters of Nubian populations are easier to follow-up. Twenty-seven archaeological samples (4 at 5000 BC, 5 at 4000 BC, 10 at 3000 BC, 3 at 2000 BC, 5 at 1000 BC), and 10 craniofacial measurements, have been considered. While cerebral skull is fairly stable, facial skull displays several regular modifications, and specially a reduction of facial and nasal heights, a broadening of the nose, and an increase of prognathism, while bizygomatic breadth is unchanged. These features illustrate a trend towards a growing resemblance with populations of Sub-Saharan Africa living in wet environments. However, paleoclimatological studies show that Nubia experienced an increasing aridification during that period. It is then unlikely that such a morphological change could be related to any local adaptive evolution to environment. Random drift is also unlikely, because the anatomical trend is relatively uniform during these millennia. It then seems more plausible that these changes correspond to the increasing presence of Southern populations migrating northward." -- Froment, A. (2002) Morphological micro-evolution of Nubian Populations from, A-Group to Christian Epochs: gene flow, not local adaptation. Am J Phys Anthropol [Suppl] 34:72.
Afrocentric critic Froment also notes: "Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Afrocentric critic C. Loring Brace's 2005 study groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations. Brace's study shows that the closest European linking with Africans in Egypt or Nubia are Middle Stone Age Portugese and Neolithics, OLDER populations more closely resembling AFRICANS than modern Europeans. Early Neolithic populations, like the Nautifians, in what is now Israel, show sub-Saharan 'negroid' affinities. (Brace, et al. The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1): p. 242-247.)
"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)
"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa... Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), .. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it." (Brace, 2005)
Both skeletal/cranial and DNA studies by other authors confirm that some Neolithics did not derive from the Near East. They most likely resembled African populations. Hence comparisons using older European Neolithics versus Africans are comparisons with older prehistoric Europeans who looked more like Africans, than modern 'white' Europeans, as shown by Brace (2005), and Hanihara (1996) also, who states "Early West Asians looked like Africans."
"The absence of mtDNA haplogroup J in the ancient Portuguese Neolithic sample suggests that this population was not derived directly from Near Eastern farmers. The Mesolithic and Neolithic groups show genetic discontinuity implying colonisation at the Neolithic transition in Portugal." (CHANDLER, H.; SYKES, B.; ZILHÃO, J. (2005) - Using ancient DNA to examine genetic continuity at the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in Portugal, in ARIAS, P.; ONTAÑÓN, R.; GARCÍA-MONCÓ, C. (eds.) - «Actas del III Congreso del Neolítico en la Península Ibérica», Santander, Monografías del Instituto Internacional de Investigaciones Prehistóricas de Cantabria 1, p. 781-786.)
"Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations." (Christopher Stringer, Robin McKie (1998). African Exodus. Macmillan, p. 162)
Early Europeans, as recently as 6,000-9000 years ago, looked somewhat like Africans in terms of retained 'tropical' characteristics. Cold adaptation was to bring about several physical changes over time from the initial Out of Africa migrations to Europe. Retained traces of 'tropical' characteristics, indicate a "large African role in the origins of anatomically modern Europeans." (Holliday and Churchill 2003).
"Body proportions covary with climate, apparently as the result of climatic selection. Ontogenetic research and migrant studies have demonstrated that body proportions are largely genetically controlled and are under low selective rates; thus studies of body form can provide evidence for evolutionarily short-term dispersals and/or gene flow. Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess "tropical" body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. .. results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions." (Holliday, Trenton (1997) Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. Journal of Human Evolution, Volume 32, Issue 5, 1997, Pages 423-447)
".. while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe." (Holliday, Trenton (1999) Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans. Journal of Human Evolution. Volume 36, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages 549-566)
"Stature, body mass, and body proportions are evaluated for the Cheddar Man (Gough's Cave 1) skeleton. Like many of his Mesolithic contemporaries, Gough's Cave 1 evinces relatively short estimated stature (ca. 166.2 cm [5' 5']) and low body mass (ca. 66 kg [146 lbs]). In body shape, he is similar to recent Europeans for most proportional indices. He differs, however, from most recent Europeans in his high crural index and tibial length/trunk height indices. Thus, while Gough's Cave 1 is characterized by a total morphological pattern considered 'cold-adapted', these latter two traits may be interpreted as evidence of a large African role in the origins of anatomically modern Europeans." (TRENTON W. HOLLIDAY a1 and STEVEN E. CHURCHILL. (2003). Gough's Cave 1 (Somerset, England): an assessment of body size and shape, Bulletin of the Natural History Museum: Geology, 58:37-44 Cambridge University Press)
More data showing early Europeans were tropically adapted types like Africans "Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens. Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme "hyper-polar" morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE." -- Gallagher et al. "Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions." Homo. 2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.
Early West Asians looked like Africans. Thus any ancient returnees or "backflow" from West Asia back to Africa is by people who look like Africans to begin with. Brace 2005 shows this as to Europeans. Hanihara 1996, demonstrates this below as to West Asians (i.e. 'Middle easterners'). Also see above.
quote: "Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World. The major findings are as follows: 1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians. 2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans. 3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest. 4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand. 5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern. This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree. Taking all of these into account, a single origin for anatomically modern humans is the most parsimonious interpretation of the craniofacial variations presented in this study." (Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):389-412.)
Older studies often show misclassification or exclusion of Nile Valley remains deemed 'negroid'. Although clearly of the "African" type, such remains were frequently relabeled "Mediterranean."
"Analyses of Egyptian crania are numerous. Vercoutter (1978) notes that ancient Egyptian crania have frequently all been lumped (implicitly or explicitly) as Mediterranean, although Negroid remains are recorded in substantial numbers by many workers... "Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic, demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not accepting variability, excluded "clear negro" crania found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign..." (S. Keita (1990) Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48)
Different features among Africans, particularly EAST AFRICANS, like narrow noses are not due to different "race" mixes but are part of the built-in physical diversity and variation of African peoples. Narrow noses appear in the oldest African populations for example, in Kenya's Gamble Cave complex. East Africans like Somalians or Kenyans do not need any outside race "mix" or migration to make them look the way they do.
QUOTE(s): ".. all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions.. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.. In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu." [Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa (1975), pgs 42-43, 62-63)
"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range: only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....." - Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa" 1975 p.53, 54
"Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations." (Rightmire GP. New studies of post-Pleistocene human skeletal remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69. )
"....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.... The relatively long noses of East Africa become explicable then when one realizes that much of the area is extremely dry for parts of the year." (C. Loring Brace, "Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity," cited in The Concept of Race, Edited by Ashley Montagu, The Free Press, 1980, pp. 135-136, 138)
"The .... excavations at Gogoshiis Qabe (Somalia) uncovered eleven virtually complete and articulated primary burials...Closest morphological affinities are with early Holocene skeletons from Lake Turkana, Kenya...and Lake Besaka, Ethiopia.." (S. Brandt, (1986) The Upper Ple
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Two things to address since most of those arguments are pathetic (for instance, st. Jerome called Colchis the 'second Ethiopia', and Aristotle also described Egyptians as Black with hair similar to Ethiopians, not just Herodotus).
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Since the Aegyptiaca, has not come down to us complete, all we have is preserved fragments from later historians and chroniclers such as Josephus, Eusebius, Jerome, and George Syncellus. An Armenian translation of Eusebius' copy of the Aegyptiaca adds that Nitocris was blonde haired, as does the Latin translation by Jerome, though there are two alternative translations here, one excludes the blonde hair but maintains her fair skin, while the revised and most recent translation in 1875 includes the blonde (Aegyptiaca, Frg. 21b, Armenian and Latin version):
''Sexta dynastia. Femina quaedam Nitocris reg-navit, omnium aetatis suae virorum fortissima et mulierum formosissima, flava rubris genis. Ab hac tertia pyramis excitata dicitur, speciem collis prae se ferens'' Old Translation:
''The Sixth Dynasty. There was a queen Nitocris, braver than all the men of her time, the most beautiful of all the women, fair skinned with red cheeks. By her, it is said, the third pyramid was reared, with the aspect of a mountain.''
''A woman by the name of Nitocris ruled next. It is said that she was braver than any man of her day and more beautiful than any contemporary woman, blonde haired and red cheeked. The third pyramid is said to have been built by her.''
This last translation is probably the correct, based on the fact ''Flava'' (Latin) having been a reference to blonde/light coloured hair, not fair skin, and ''rubris genis'' meaning red/ruddy cheeks (genis = cheeks, rubris = red). Nitocris was therefore blonde haired with red cheeks, certianly this is a physical description only applicable to a white female.
All of those translations are bogus as there is no reference at all to skin with respect to color. For instance, Herodotus explicitly described the Egyptians as melanchroiês (Black-skinned) yet here the woman is only described as Flava, which means golden nor can we give credit to a physical description about a person spoken of centuries later (how can Manetho, who lived in the 3rd Century BC, accurately describe a person who lived around 2184 BC?). The description is similar to that of Nut which describes the ideal celestial beauty. Either way, a golden-brown complexion wouldn't be seen as rare in Africa.
The other thing:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: The Roman physician Galen of the 2nd century AD, described the hair of the egyptians as (De Temperamentis, II. 5):
‘‘The hair of Egyptians, Arabs, Indians, and of general all peoples who inhabit hot, dry places, has poor growth and is black, dry, curly and brittle.''
This translation here, certianly means curly and NOT wooly. The black aethiopians here were diliberately excluded by Galen, as they were known to have wooly hair, not curly hair during his period of time. Galen then knew the egyptians were not black.
Maybe he simply left aethiopians out completely because he never traveled to Ethiopia. Indeed, you are sloppy! You forgot the rest of the passage!
quote:"So much for the formation of the hair; we should now pass on to the features of all the incidental features of the mixtures, as regards the differences of hair according to age, place, and nature of the body. The hair of Egyptians, Arabs, Indians, and of general all peoples who inhabit hot, dry places, has poor growth and is black, dry, curly and brittle. That of the inhabitants of cold, wet places, conversely - Illyrians, Germans, Dalmatians, Sauromatians, and the Scythian types of people in general- has reasonably good growth and is thin, straight, and red. Those who live in some well-balanced land which is between these in quality have hair with extremely good growth, which is strong, fairly black, moderately thick, and neither completely curly nor completely straight".
- Galen, Ancient Greek medical writer
^Ha! So he basically split the world into three.. Egyptians were considered part of the southern extreme that would have included Ethiopians were they mentioned specifically as they stayed in a "hot, dry place". Your spin cannot avoid the fact that they were distinguished from Nords, and then further distinguished from mid-latitude medits.
quote:African-American/Black hair in general is more brittle, coarser, dryer and curlier (nappy) than those of non-African decent
--HairCareGuide
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ LOL Of course. I don't have time to address ALL of his nonsense, but you and others can address them if you want.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: IIRC, some African groups such as the Igbo of Nigeria use "white" or "pale" to describe black people with relatively fair skin. It doesn't always mean "white" as in European.
I believe the color term they use is 'RED' to describe fair-skinned people. Ironically the ancient Egyptians also used the color red to describe non-black foreigners and enemies.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Castrated-hide claims to be a specialist in so-called 'Classical' sources so perhaps he can explain these passages for us...
Herodotus: "..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..." (The Histories, Book 2:104)
Diodorus Siculus: ""The Aithiopians say that the Egyptians are settlers from among themselves and that Osiris was the leader of the settlement.The customs of the Egyptians, they say, are for the most part Aithiopian, the settlers having preserved their old traditions. For to consider the kings gods, to pay great attention to funeral rites, and many other things, are Aithiopian practices, and also the style of their statues and the form of their writing are Aithiopian. Also the way the priestly colleges are organized is said to be the same in both nations.." (Bibliotheke)
Aristotle: "Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two..." ""Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair." (Physiognomics)
Lucian: (Lycinus describing a young Egyptian) "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin... his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman." (Timolaus responds) "But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus, All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place." (Navigations)
Apollodorus: "Aegyptos conquered the country of the blackfooted ones and called it Egypt after himself."
Aeschylus: (The Danaids upon seeing their Egyptian cousins sailing towards them) "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics." (The Suppliants)
Ammianus Marcellinus: "..the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look.."
Achilles Tatius of Alexandria: "...the herdsmen of the [Egyptian] Delta are blackish of skin like Ethiopians.."
Diogenes Laertius: Apollonius of Tyre says of him that he was gaunt, very tall and black, hence the fact that, according to Chrysippus in the First Book of his Proverbs, certain people called him an Egyptian vine-shoot
And what of these post-Classical Judeo-Christian sources below?
Rabbi Yuda ben Simon in a Midrashic text: Abraham says to his wife Sarah, "Now we are about to enter a place (Egypt) of ugly and black people"
In a Midrash: "The black people will come out of Egypt, Kush will stretch its hands to God"
Church Father Theodore of Mopsuestia says above the Shulamite bride in the 'Song of Songs': "She was black like all the Egyptians and Ethiopians."
Church Father Origen Adamantius says of the Egyptians: "They are the discolored (black) posterity of Ham"
I await a valid and logical reply to the above from the castrated one. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I do wonder about the likening of northern Indians to Egyptians by some Roman writers. Are there any people in northern India who are dark-skinned enough to be called "black"?
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I do wonder about the likening of northern Indians to Egyptians by some Roman writers. Are there any people in northern India who are dark-skinned enough to be called "black"?
al-Takuri explained the color hierarchy used in that description already. The world was divided into "Northerners" and "Southerners", "lightest" to "darkest" respectively. In the southern zone I recall clumsily (and I will edit my post after I look it up) that the aethiopians were darkest, then Indians, then Egyptians, then moors, then Berbers (I'm sure I'm a bit off but you get the idea). And then for the "light-skinned" peoples of the world you had the darkest medits all the way to the lightest Nords. So the quote is very similar to the Galen quote cass tried to distort in that Egyptians were counted among the dark peoples. Other citations also compared Indians to aethiopians and actually calling them eastern Ethiopians so going by skin complexion alone, yes, some would have been just as "black" as the "burnt-faces" or "aethiopians" of Africa.
from my old blog:
quote: Opponents often cite quotes from Strabo and Arrian who gave descriptions seemingly comparing Egyptians to Northern Indians and attributing to them a "medium" complexion. These same opponents omit the fact as part of their reasoning that Arrian in the same breath compared Ethiopians to Indians, beginning by stating that "The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia". The comparisons between Egyptians-Northern Indians and Ethiopians-southern Indians were then made but it is clear given the context that the ancient authors are describing subtle nuances (as we know southern Indians to be similar in appearance and ancestry to their northern neighbors, as are modern Upper Egyptians and Northern Sudanese). Somehow these "pesky" Ethiopians seem always to be part of the equation.
Also recall that by this time (Roman era) people like Achilles Tatius were already describing the men of the delta as "half-castes", but still "blackish" like Ethiopians.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Northeastern India in the state of Orissa not waay north mind you but far from the South. Mohenjo Daro Pakistan
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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A couple of Pakistanis (who would have been classified as "northern Indian" in Arrian's day)
More dark-skinned Pakistanis
Woman from southern Pakistan
Can we really assume that northern Indians looked the same as they do today back in Roman times anyway?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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No not really people move around alot they intermarry lets not forget settlments coming from Persia,Africa,the Mongols(Moguls) all would have left their mark big or small.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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^Why don't we just address Manilius' color scheme and Arrian's quote. I think posting so many random photos will just confuse the issue. clearly the Egyptians were counted among the darkest people known to the ancient writers with the Berbers being the lightest among the black [if you will] peoples of the ancient world. Snowden even acknowledges this and was forced to instead concentrate on locating the "True Negroid" in Greek literature. Funny how during the Black Athena debates that fool was basically trying to tell Keita that the ancient Greeks knew more about physical anthropology than he does or that they knew anything about early 20th century race classifications.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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So much for northern Indians all looking like Bollywood actresses!
quote:^Why don't we just address Manilius' color scheme and Arrian's quote. I think posting so many random photos will just confuse the issue.
Fair enough, but I thought photos of dark-skinned North Indians would be useful in case the opposition decides to quote Arrian.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^Yea, but then he'll just find light-skinned Indians to post and claim they're aboriginal (endless picture spam war). The best yard stick is the Greeks themselves. Recall that Physiogomy citation from Aristotle or pseudo-Aristotle? The best complexion is a ruddy one like lions (reddish-brown), yet Egyptians were 2 or 3 gradients darker than this?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yes, I do, and I also recall that he grouped both the Egyptians and Ethiopians together as "black". Even if we accept the argument that "black" could mean only "relatively swarthy", it is still revealing that pseudo-Aristotle thought the complexion of Egyptians resembled that of Ethiopians.
posted
Like today, there were different shades, and though Greeks in general to my knowledge considered themselves neither white nor black, they considered the Egyptions right in the middle of the black range (range of peoples they considered black).
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: IIRC, some African groups such as the Igbo of Nigeria use "white" or "pale" to describe black people with relatively fair skin. It doesn't always mean "white" as in European.
Yeah, in places including the Middle East tan and light brown people can be yellow or white, and "white" people "red". In places in Africa, even relatively lighter but still basically black folk are "red" (like "red bones" here) and the H word may even come from a Hausa word (meaning red) for white people.
In the poem about the sky goddess if hedj is indeed used in the context of brilliantly bright it probably refers to a sheen. Shiny and silver were the same word used with the metallic determinative. This type of thing isn't as pitiful though as when nefer (meanings: young or beautiful) would get translated into "fair" possibly creating contradictions.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Herodotus: "..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..." (The Histories, Book 2:104) =============
Read the OP, this passage is not trustable - as Herodotus at the same time wrote all the egyptians were BALD.
==============
Diodorus Siculus: ""The Aithiopians say that the Egyptians are settlers from among themselves and that Osiris was the leader of the settlement.The customs of the Egyptians, they say, are for the most part Aithiopian, the settlers having preserved their old traditions. For to consider the kings gods, to pay great attention to funeral rites, and many other things, are Aithiopian practices, and also the style of their statues and the form of their writing are Aithiopian. Also the way the priestly colleges are organized is said to be the same in both nations.." (Bibliotheke) =================
There were TWO ancient aethiopias, one sat in Asia or Arabia, the other south Africa.
Afrocentrics always ignore this fact, and anywhere they see Aethiopia in classical greek writings thinks it relates to black africa.
==========
Aristotle: "Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two..." ""Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair." (Physiognomics) ==============
This source is not Aristotle, its pseudo-aristotle. We don't even know who wrote it, secondly its incredibly late - by this time egypt was a melting pot.
No one denies there were blacks in ancient egypt, however the founders, builders etc of egypt were never black.
=============
Lucian: (Lycinus describing a young Egyptian) "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin... his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman." (Timolaus responds) "But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus, All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place." (Navigations) ===============
The context here is a SLAVE (i believe the setting is on a ship) not a native egyptian.
===================
Apollodorus: "Aegyptos conquered the country of the blackfooted ones and called it Egypt after himself."
===================
'Blackfoot' does not mean black skinned.
There are hundreds of greek mythological figures with the name 'black foot' (Greek: Melampus), yet they are physically described as white skinned in the ancient texts. Blackfoot was just a nickname.
Aeschylus: (The Danaids upon seeing their Egyptian cousins sailing towards them) "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics." (The Suppliants) ====================
Ammianus Marcellinus: "..the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look.."
=======================
The correct translation is ''somewhat dark'', see my OP where i covered the latin.
Afrocentrics also cut off this quote too early, as Ammianus says that their skin shows signs of being RUDDY, and of course hemoglobin only shows under lightish skin. ================
Church Father Theodore of Mopsuestia says above the Shulamite bride in the 'Song of Songs': "She was black like all the Egyptians and Ethiopians."
Church Father Origen Adamantius says of the Egyptians: "They are the discolored (black) posterity of Ham ==================
This is typical to find in early Christian literature. The early christians invented a division of race based on noahs three sons - ham as black, japheth as white and shem as brown or 'medium' skin coloured.
It has no basis in fact. These sources are useless.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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''A couple of Pakistanis (who would have been classified as "northern Indian" in Arrian's day'' =====
No, Arrian's Indians were the light skinned Aryans and related Indo-Europeans of northern india.
You can see how Indo-Europeans left their genetics across North India, as some pure-blooded or fairly homogenous Aryans still exist in the northern regions of India, this is why India's models or actresses are usually always light skinned, as opposed to the Dravidians or southern indians.
Here are two north indian actresses -
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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There were TWO ancient aethiopias, one sat in Asia or Arabia, the other south Africa.
Afrocentrics always ignore this fact, and anywhere they see Aethiopia in classical greek writings thinks it relates to black africa.
Who is ignoring "Eastern Ethiopia" last I checked many afrocentrics EMBRACE Eastern Ethiopia as proof of Black Arabs and Black Asians.
Second you have not proof that the Ethiopians mentioned in the passage are Eastern Ethiopians esp. given this history of Kush AKA Ethiopia and Egypt.
We have connections between the Two Empires going back to the Pre-Dynastic, the So called "A Group", Called Ta-Seti by Egyptians, Then the Incorporation of the Ta-Seti Elite into Egypt begining as Early as the 3rd Dynasty and by the 12th Dynasty an Established Foothoold and Royal Family of Ta-Seti Orgin on the Throne of Kemet, with their God Amun set to become the God Of Gods for the next thousand something years.
How pathetic a person who claims to be a proud white person and decendant of people who are supposedly a master race trying to link himself to an Empire not even on his own continent.
How pathetic to ignore the Sister Raltionship between Egypt and Kush, only a Fool would say that Arabs rather than southern Africans founded Egypt r that Arabs who were illiterates for the most part during the time the quote was made made such an Audatious claim that they, arabs with NO CONNECTION at all to Egypt, Founded Egypt as a Colony.
The Kushites are the only people who would make a claim and they had all the records and proof to back their claim up. What did you think they forgot about the 5th, 6th, 12th etc. Dynasties that originated in Ta-Seti and Further south??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: " (The Histories, Book 2:104) =============
Read the OP, this passage is not trustable - as Herodotus at the same time wrote all the egyptians were BALD.
==============
Why do you misinterpret Herodotus? He claims that only Egyptian priests shave their heads bald and ordinary Egyptians only do it as a ritualistic mourning of the deceased.
quote:There were TWO ancient aethiopias, one sat in Asia or Arabia, the other south Africa.
Afrocentrics always ignore this fact, and anywhere they see Aethiopia in classical greek writings thinks it relates to black africa.
In this case Diodorus was speaking directly to the aethiopians south of Egypt who said the Egyptians descend from them and got most of their laws and customs from them. Diodorus would have emphasized the impossibility of considering had he thought that this statement were illogical. When Greeks mentioned the non-African aethiopians they specified by calling them "eastern" aethiopians.
quote:This source is not Aristotle, its pseudo-aristotle. We don't even know who wrote it, secondly its incredibly late - by this time egypt was a melting pot.
No one denies there were blacks in ancient egypt, however the founders, builders etc of egypt were never black.
It doesn't matter who wrote it, the person did not describe a "melting pot", he described the Egyptian categorically as Black with kinky hair. This does not support your idea of a "white Egypt" of antiquity.
quote:
The context here is a SLAVE (i believe the setting is on a ship) not a native egyptian.
Do you know how to read? The statement specifically refers to an Egyptian and the former thought he was a slave because of the hair lock but was corrected in that this was a common practice among free men in Egypt.
quote:
'Blackfoot' does not mean black skinned.
I agree that "blackfoot" is ambiguous. The other references so far are not.
1) But you claim they are white and white people aren't dark, they are light.
2) What is the word used? If Melas, then yes, literally that word denotes "blackness". We need to see the original transcription.
quote:The correct translation is ''somewhat dark'', see my OP where i covered the latin.
Afrocentrics also cut off this quote too early, as Ammianus says that their skin shows signs of being RUDDY, and of course hemoglobin only shows under lightish skin.
How can you translate 'brown' AND 'black' (two distinct colors) into one complexion in "somewhat dark"? What are you basing this translation on? Clearly, a nuance was described. Brown plus Black people, not just "somewhat dark" people. What word was used that transcribes directly into the English "dark" and the English version of "somewhat"? Clearly you are scrambling and making things up. If the quote was cut short, quote him in context then. You say that he's saying there were brown, black, and ruddy people in Egypt? Or would ruddy have been dark ruddy-brown equivalent to part of the population he described when he said they were "Brown" AND "Black"?
Folks, this person is trying to convince us that the Greeks and Romans never used the word "black" in their vocabulary and that if they did, the word was never used to describe Egyptians. We all know this to be false as it's been dealt with before.
quote: ==================
This is typical to find in early Christian literature. The early christians invented a division of race based on noahs three sons - ham as black, japheth as white and shem as brown or 'medium' skin coloured.
It has no basis in fact.
However, they still saw logical reasons to separate Egyptians from the genealogy of whites and include them within the genealogy of blacks. This cannot be overlooked. Anyone who knows anything about interpretive anthropology knows that such religious symbolism (or symbolism in general) is indeed based on some kind of historically particular social fact. Thus, it is not a FACT that Egyptians descent from Ham, but it does seem to be a FACT that the Egyptians shared common descent with most groups said to have also descended from Ham.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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This is typical to find in early Christian literature. The early christians invented a division of race based on noahs three sons - ham as black, japheth as white and shem as brown or 'medium' skin coloured.
The Christians invented no such thing as it was the Hebrews themselves who applied the Sons on Noah to Different Tribes across the Known World.
In a Midrash:"The black people will come out of Egypt, Kush will stretch its hands to God"[i]
[i]Rabbi Yuda ben Simon in a Midrashic text: Abraham says to his wife Sarah, "Now we are about to enter a place (Egypt) of ugly and black people"
Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.
Pirqe de Ribbi Eli`ezer
Ham meant Burnt.
Also it does'nt matte as the Early Christians had Good acess to Egypt, her people, her Temple Libraries and to the Original Hebrew Scrolls and Manuscripts, the fact that despite you claims that the Egyptians were whites, Down the years time and time again White people decribed them with black peoples...LOL. It has no basis in fact. These sources are useless.
The only one who has no basis in facts is you...
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:No, Arrian's Indians were the light skinned Aryans and related Indo-Europeans of northern india.
Nonsense, Manilus, who lived before Arrian claimed that the Indians he saw were the 2nd darkest peoples known to him (according to his color scheme).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:No, Arrian's Indians were the light skinned Aryans and related Indo-Europeans of northern india.
Nonsense, Manilus, who lived before Arrian claimed that the Indians he saw were the 2nd darkest peoples known to him (according to his color scheme).
the Manilus quote [QUOTE] Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Contrast that with his list of Whites from Palest to Darkest
[QUOTE]Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^^^^ Its not even a debate at this point. Egypt's founders were Tropical Africans from the Eastern and western Deserts further South. To bad so sad.
To add further hurt to injury and to put the nail in the coffin, it was always Southern Upper egyptians who Reunited the Two Lands and Subjugated the North. The Symbol for the South was always placed before the North, and to put the nail in the Coffin, Further South the Nubians always felt they had a right to the throne of Egypt probably due to the incorporation of Ta-Seti Nobility into Kemet by the First Dynasties.
^^^^^ Native Egyptian with the same skin and features as the the so called "Red" White Nordic" Egyptians....LMAO.
Yeah Ill Bet Every White man would Love for that Man to marry and F-ck their Lilly White Daughter and help preserve the white Race...Im sure that man would have sat on the front of the Bus with all his "Homoglobin" in the Jim Crow America...LOL
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Its not even a debate at this point. Egypt's founders were Tropical Africans from the Eastern and western Deserts further South. To bad so sad.
Yup.
quote:During the early Holocene humid optimum, the southern Sahara and the Nile valley apparently were too moist and hazardous for appreciable human occupation. (C) After 7000 B.C.E., human settlement became well established all over the Eastern Sahara, fostering the development of cattle pastoralism. (D) Retreating monsoonal rains caused the onset of desiccation of the Egyptian Sahara at 5300 B.C.E. Prehistoric populations were forced to the Nile valley or ecological refuges and forced to exodus into the Sudanese Sahara where rainfall and surface water were still sufficient. The return of full desert conditions all over Egypt at about 3500 B.C.E. coincided with the initial stages of pharaonic civilization in the Nile valley.
Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa’s Evolution Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kro¨ pelin* (2006)
He probably thinks these ancient Saharans were white "Caucasoids" though Funny thing is, that after the last glacial Maximum, sub-Saharan East/Horn Africans populated the Nile Valley. Which leaves him up to the task of:
A. Proving these ancient Saharans were "white Caucasians"
B. Proving ancient East/Horn Africans were "White Caucasoids"
Both of which he will be unable to do, as no such evidence exists
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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''He probably thinks these ancient Saharans were white "Caucasoids" though'' ====
I only claimed Caucasians are native to North Africa.
Why were the gaunche people of the canaries described as pale skinned and blonde by the Spanish before they were exterminated?
Why are the Libyans described as red, auburn and blonde haired in ancient greek literature?
Why is the Libyan depicted on the book of gates (1500 BC) as pale skinned with blue eyes?
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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''Native Egyptian with the same skin and features as the the so called "Red" White Nordic" Egyptians....LMAO' ====
No, that' is a typical modern egyptian mutt, a mix of arab and negro.
The indigenous egyptians were Caucasian.
You never answered why the pre-dynastic mummies in the British Museum have straight long ginger and auburn hair if they were negro.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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OK. Then as you can clearly see, the Egyptians came from somewhere else- The Sahara and sub-Saharan Africa. So how does that make them "Caucasoid" if they are not from North Africa? You'll have to explain yourself
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''He probably thinks these ancient Saharans were white "Caucasoids" though'' ====
I only claimed Caucasians are native to North Africa.
Why were the gaunche people of the canaries described as pale skinned and blonde by the Spanish before they were exterminated?
Why are the Libyans described as red, auburn and blonde haired in ancient greek literature?
Why is the Libyan depicted on the book of gates (1500 BC) as pale skinned with blue eyes?
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: So much for northern Indians all looking like Bollywood actresses!
You have to understand that Bollywood reflects a very elitist nature and by elitist, I mean heavy foreign influence.
Since Medieval times due to conquest and invasions by peoples farther north, the Indian elite (in some areas) tended to be fair-skinned etc. and this had an impact in Indian art and culture. Of course Modern Times with European colonial influence didn't make things better. But yeah, Bollywood actors and actresses do NOT in any way shape and form reflect the reality of what the vast majority of the population looks like. In fact many of Bollywood's acting elite since the 1940s and 50s have foreign origins from Afghanistan, Iran, and recently some even have European ancestry. This is why Bollywood actors and actresses hardly look Indian if at all.
Of course I expect and idiot like Castrated to post a picture of a 'fair & lovely' Bollywood actress as a sorry response to your pictures of true native Indians. Even the British themselves when they first set foot in India described the natives as "black" much to the protests of many Indians today. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^The people in North India speak what kind of language thimble head?
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by castratedhide: Read the OP, this passage is not trustable - as Herodotus at the same time wrote all the egyptians were BALD.
It's not trustworthy you mean? Even though he spoke as an eyewitness. Also the baldness is confirmed by archaeology that many Egyptians did shave their heads but that does not mean there were no Egyptians with hair at all, dummy.
quote:There were TWO ancient aethiopias, one sat in Asia or Arabia, the other south Africa.
South Africa?! And since when did any Greeks travel as far south as south Africa? There were in fact two Aethipias but they were divided into EAST and WEST. The West Aethiopia is Africa which included Arabia since according to the Greeks Arabia began on the eastern banks of the Nile, dummy! Eastern Ethiopia represented Iran and India. By the way, the earliest references to 'Aethiopia' by the Greeks is actually ancient Canaan or the Levant!
quote:Afrocentrics always ignore this fact, and anywhere they see Aethiopia in classical greek writings thinks it relates to black africa.
Refer to what I wrote above. Plus, the Aethiopia whom Greeks referred to the most is Western Aethiopia i.e. Africa since Greece is closer to Africa than India.
quote:This source is not Aristotle, its pseudo-aristotle. We don't even know who wrote it, secondly its incredibly late - by this time egypt was a melting pot.
This is dumb comment. Even if Egypt was a melting pot even the Greeks knew that its native inhabitants were blacks! Lest why identify Egyptians with blacks in the first place?? Also, foreign immigrations to Egypt occurred from outside of Africa, so your point of melting pot is null.
quote:No one denies there were blacks in ancient egypt, however the founders, builders etc of egypt were never black.
And this is based on what other than your racist conjectures of blacks not able to produce civilization?? You realize that archaeology shows pharonic civilization developed in the south NOT in the north and thus was the creation of indigenous i.e. BLACK Africans.
quote:The context here is a SLAVE (i believe the setting is on a ship) not a native egyptian.
Hey moron. Did you not read the whole thing? The guy was mistaken to call him a slave due to his plaited hair because in Egypt, plaited and braided type hair was the common style as it is in many parts of Africa and NOT a sign of slavery as it is in Greece! Thus Lycinus was corrected.
quote:'Blackfoot' does not mean black skinned.
Then what do you think it means? That they painted their feet black? LOL
quote:There are hundreds of greek mythological figures with the name 'black foot' (Greek: Melampus), yet they are physically described as white skinned in the ancient texts. Blackfoot was just a nickname.
"He [Melampus] was the introducer of the worship of Dionysus, according to Herodotus, who asserted that his powers as a seer were derived from the Egyptians"
LMAOH You obviously don't realize that there were in fact many black Africans who figured prominently in Greek myth, usually either Egyptian or Libyan!
quote:The correct translation is 'dark' not black.
WRONG as usual, moron! The correct translation IS black as the word melano!
quote:The correct translation is ''somewhat dark'', see my OP where i covered the latin.
LOL Sorry but translating BLACK into dark cannot save you.
quote:Afrocentrics also cut off this quote too early, as Ammianus says that their skin shows signs of being RUDDY, and of course hemoglobin only shows under lightish skin.
Actually the correct description is reddish as in dark copper NOT ruddy as in rosy skinned! LOL Your pathetic attempts at distortion cannot fool anyone!
quote:This is typical to find in early Christian literature. The early christians invented a division of race based on noahs three sons - ham as black, japheth as white and shem as brown or 'medium' skin coloured.
It has no basis in fact. These sources are useless.
So even if the early Christians and Jews invented this tripart racial division, that still does not explain away the FACT that they described the Egyptians as BLACK you idiot! Why weren't they described as white or of descending from Japheth instead, if according to you they were really white?! LMAO
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: The people in North India speak what kind of language thimble head?
And exactly what the f*ck does that have to do with what they look like?!
Many blacks in both North and South America speak Indo-European languages as well, are you telling me they represent the people who brought such languages in those areas?? YOU are the thimble head! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: The people in North India speak what kind of language thimble head?
And exactly what the f*ck does that have to do with what they look like?!
Many blacks in both North and South America speak Indo-European languages as well, are you telling me they represent the people who brought such languages in those areas?? YOU are the thimble head! LOL
Give it quite a few more generations to catch up with India.lol
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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The black people of northern India represent indigenous people. Their Indo-European language represents linguistic/cultural influence.
The black people of ancient Egypt represent indigenous people but their African language shows NO linguistic/cultural influence. Get a f**king clue, twit.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Obviously you don't understand the meaning of the European part of indo-European.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ Of course I do stupid, but what does that have to do with India?!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:No, Arrian's Indians were the light skinned Aryans and related Indo-Europeans of northern india.
Nonsense, Manilus, who lived before Arrian claimed that the Indians he saw were the 2nd darkest peoples known to him (according to his color scheme).
Thats true Sanskrit is the oldest of all Indo Aryan languages in South Asia and Central Asia and their texts never described themselves with European features almost all Vedic rulers were depeicted with Dark skin in Vedas the most Popular ones from Vedic Solar Dynasty - Rama and Vedic Lunar Dynasty Krishna Krishna also means in Black in Sanskrit and Beautiful in Slavic.
There was no Indo European languages in Europe when there was Indo European languages in Hittite and Anatolia and India.
Sanskrit language is closest to Slavic languages which originated 1500 after Sanskrit language.
I have seen this another Propaganda by Europeans about Indra being blond hair and non sense like that they dont realize that he is not a human he is a SOLAR diet part of SUN god his skin and nails are gold too and same with Shadow goddess who has black skin and black hair and rides a chariot before dawn.
Anyone beyond Indus river to the west were considered Barbarians by Vedic people.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2011
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So much for northern Indians all looking like Bollywood actresses!
You have to understand that Bollywood reflects a very elitist nature and by elitist, I mean heavy foreign influence.
Since Medieval times due to conquest and invasions by peoples farther north, the Indian elite (in some areas) tended to be fair-skinned etc. and this had an impact in Indian art and culture. Of course Modern Times with European colonial influence didn't make things better. But yeah, Bollywood actors and actresses do NOT in any way shape and form reflect the reality of what the vast majority of the population looks like. In fact many of Bollywood's acting elite since the 1940s and 50s have foreign origins from Afghanistan, Iran, and recently some even have European ancestry. This is why Bollywood actors and actresses hardly look Indian if at all.
Of course I expect and idiot like Castrated to post a picture of a 'fair & lovely' Bollywood actress as a sorry response to your pictures of true native Indians. Even the British themselves when they first set foot in India described the natives as "black" much to the protests of many Indians today.
Thats not true...Bollywood actors look Indian vast majority of these popular actress with light eyes and pale skin are of Dravidian origin not Indo Aryan.
We are not Black i have seen how Afrocentrics post pics of Austro Asiatic people of India and post them as Dravidian vast majority of Dravidians dont look like the people you like portrayer just look at some of the popular Indian Americans of South* Indian origin like Padma Lakshmi, Kunal Nayyar, Mindy Kaling they are all Dravidians.
Dravidian people from mainland not coastal or island.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was just looking at photos of people from the Thar Desert in northwestern India, and some of them can get quite dark:
So much for northern Indians all looking like Bollywood actresses!
They are TRIBAL people and indogeneus to Thar desert they one of the have highest level of light eyes in South and Central Asia. just like Brahui people are Dravidian by language but they are considered Iranic due to them originating in Iran.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Simha: Thats true Sanskrit is the oldest of all Indo Aryan languages in South Asia and Central Asia and their texts never described themselves with European features almost all Vedic rulers were depeicted with Dark skin in Vedas the most Popular ones from Vedic Solar Dynasty - Rama and Vedic Lunar Dynasty Krishna Krishna also means in Black in Sanskrit and Beautiful in Slavic.
There was no Indo European languages in Europe when there was Indo European languages in Hittite and Anatolia and India.
Sanskrit language is closest to Slavic languages which originated 1500 after Sanskrit language.
I have seen this another Propaganda by Europeans about Indra being blond hair and non sense like that they dont realize that he is not a human he is a SOLAR diet part of SUN god his skin and nails are gold too and same with Shadow goddess who has black skin and black hair and rides a chariot before dawn.
Anyone beyond Indus river to the west were considered Barbarians by Vedic people.
Sanskrit is NOT the oldest Indo-European language. It is one of the oldest recorded but only the 3rd oldest recorded. The oldest record I-E language is Hittite language Nesili whose earliest record is found in 16th century BC Cuneiform texts. The 2nd oldest recorded I-E language is Greek first recorded in Linear B script of the early 14th century BC. Sanskrit is the 3rd oldest recorded in the late 14th century in Cuneiform but NOT in India but in the ancient kingdom of Mitanni in today's northern Syria!
The European language that Sanskrit shows the most affinities with is Baltic languages like ancient Lithuanian. That does not mean that Sanskrit or Lithuanian are the oldest period. I-E languages probably developed in Russia or north of the Caucasus because the greatest diversity and number of subfamilies exist in Europe but the largest and most diverse subfamily is Indo-Iranian which include the languages of Iranic as well as Indic peoples.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Simha: That's not true...Bollywood actors look Indian vast majority of these popular actress with light eyes and pale skin are of Dravidian origin not Indo Aryan.
We are not Black i have seen how Afrocentrics post pics of Austro Asiatic people of India and post them as Dravidian vast majority of Dravidians dont look like the people you like portrayer just look at some of the popular Indian Americans of South* Indian origin like Padma Lakshmi, Kunal Nayyar, Mindy Kaling they are all Dravidians.
Dravidian people from mainland not coastal or island.
Language is NOT the same as people. Dravidian languages are likely indigenous to India. Indo-European derived languages like Sanskrit or not. There are BLACK I-E speakers as there are non-black or even fair-skinned Dravidian speakers. Fair skin is NOT native to tropical regions like India but black skin is. Therefore, do the math. As I said, India has experienced many migrations and suffered multiple invasions. Yes these have not altered the Indian population by and large because the population by and large is still dark, but do you really believe these fair-skinned people represent the aboriginal peoples or their traits??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:''A couple of Pakistanis (who would have been classified as "northern Indian" in Arrian's day'' =====
No, Arrian's Indians were the light skinned Aryans and related Indo-Europeans of northern india.
You can see how Indo-Europeans left their genetics across North India, as some pure-blooded or fairly homogenous Aryans still exist in the northern regions of India, this is why India's models or actresses are usually always light skinned, as opposed to the Dravidians or southern indians.
There is no such thing as pure Aryan and why are you spelling it as Arrian? Its Arya and Aryan is givien name for a Male.
Modern English Aryan is adopted from Sanskrit and its oldest of both Indo Aryan and Indo Iranian langauges and Aryan had nothing to do with Iranians let alone they dont carry any genetic related to Aryans same with Afghanistan. Original Aryans were of Dark haired and dark eyes from dark skin to dark olive skin tones. That is how they depicted their gods and goddess.
Zoroastrian was founded after Hinduism and Buddhism and in Zoroastrian Devas are considred Demons and Asuras are considered Gods and In Hinduism Devas are considered Gods and Asuras are considered Demon.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2011
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You obviously don't realize that there were in fact many black Africans who figured prominently in Greek myth, usually either Egyptian or Libyan! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
So even if the early Christians and Jews invented this tripart racial division, that still does not explain away the FACT that they described the Egyptians as BLACK you idiot! Why weren't they described as white or of descending from Japheth instead, if according to you they were really white?! LMAO 
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