posted
yeah some passed through northafrica true....could be that african admixture is existent in some gypsies....but i think as a group they dont have significant african admixture....they look nothing like africans to me.....some ppl mistake brown skin to be indicator of african admixture but it evolved elsewhere too (indian subcontinent)
Posts: 109 | Registered: Mar 2011
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And of course I can see how these black American tourist could get mixed up with their new Egyptian friends...
I mean they look much more similar than the Cornish and Egyptian examples, eh?
LOL Sorry but comparisons of sunburnt Cornish to Arabs has nothing to do with rural Bohari or Sa'idi who resemble the ancient portraits of their black ancestors.
As a light-skinned African American, I was often mistaken for Egyptian. Most Egyptians, despite living on the African continent, are Arabs. You would think being able to blend in would be a good thing—it definitely wasn’t when dealing with the Egyptian police, who were everywhere, often in plain clothes. That’s how I know the police aren’t around to “serve and protect” the people, but to protect Mubarak and his government from the people.
Because of my looks, my religion and my name, I have frequently been mistaken for Arab during my travels throughout the Middle East. It has been a mentally liberating sensation — to leave the racial politics of the United States (in reality, this is simply the process of exchanging the ethnic politics of one land for those of another) and not to be regarded as simply a nondescript “black.”
Over the years, I have, at various times, been mistaken for many different nationalities. But when I am in the Middle East, strangers most often mistake me for Egyptian. Of course, many African Americans look like Egyptians, right across the color spectrum. I would often scan a crowded street in Cairo and pick out the faces of Egyptians whose visages reminded me of family or friends.
There are many more examples. Now show me examples of white tourists being mistaken for Egyptians with exception of the foreign Afrangi Egyptians!
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackTiger: yeah some passed through northafrica true....could be that african admixture is existent in some gypsies....but i think as a group they dont have significant african admixture....they look nothing like africans to me.....some ppl mistake brown skin to be indicator of african admixture but it evolved elsewhere too (indian subcontinent)
True.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
There are many more examples. Now show me examples of white tourists being mistaken for Egyptians with exception of the foreign Afrangi Egyptians!
No, your average White tourist would not be mistaken for Egyptian but many Hispanics probably would. Though I have seem some Egyptians who look European. Could be descendants of British or Mamlukes. I was told there is an area somewhere in Cairo where the old British live. They speak fluent Egyptian Arabic and have copied the beavhior and mannerism of Egyptians.
Also your average AA, say someone of Denzil Washington's complexion or darker would stand out in Cairo and Alexandria.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Rahotep Not true. Ancient, pre-Ptolemaic capital cities in the north included: Memphis, Herakleopolis, Itjtawy (in the Faiyoum) region) Xois, Avaris, Pi-Ramesses, Bubastis, Sais and Mendes.
Number Egyptian Name Capital Modern Capital Translation
1 Ta-Seti Abu / Yebu (Elephantine) Aswan Land of the bow 2 Wetjes-Hor Djeba (Apollonopolis Magna) Edfu Throne of Horus 3 Ten Nekhen (Hierakonpolis) al-Kab Shrine 4 Waset Niwt-rst / Waset (Thebes) Karnak Sceptre 5 Herui Gebtu (Coptos) Qift The two falcons 6 Aa-ta Lunet / Tantere (Tentyra) Dendera The crocodile 7 Seshesh Seshesh (Diospolis Parva) Hu Sistrum 8 Abdju Abdju (Abydos) al-Birba Great land 9 Min Apu / Khen-min (Panopolis) Akhmim Min 10 Wadkhet Djew-qa (Aphroditopolis) Ifteh Cobra 11 Set Shashotep (Hypselis) Shutb The creature associated with Set 12 Tu-ph Hut-Sekhem-Senusret (Antaeopolis) Qaw al-Kebir Viper mountain 13 Atef-Khent Zawty (z3wj-tj, Lycopolis) Asyut Upper Sycamore and Viper 14 Atef-Pehu Qesy (Cusae) al-Qusiya Lower Sycamore and Viper 15 Un Khemenu (Hermopolis Magna) al-Ashmunayn Hare 16 Meh-Mahetch Hebenu Kom el Ahmar Oryx 17 Anpu Saka (Cynopolis) al-Kais Anubis 18 Sep Teudjoi / Hutnesut (Alabastronopolis) el-Hiba Set 19 Uab Per-Medjed (Oxyrhynchus) el-Bahnasa Two Sceptres 20 Atef-Khent Henen-nesut (Herakleopolis Magna) Ihnasiyyah al-Madinah Southern Sycamore 21 Atef-Pehu Shenakhen / Semenuhor (Crocodilopolis, Arsinoe) Madinat al-Fayyum Northern Sycamore 22 Maten Tepihu (Aphroditopolis) Atfih Knife
DJ knew this.
The area of the delta was swamp land made livable by drainage. goods and services were more important with the other polities on the Nile before they cared about the coast Waset or Wose was the premier city for thousands of yrs, the cities on the coast did became important but did not eclipse those of the south until the Greco Roman era
They said also that the first man who became king of Egypt was Min; and that in his time all Egypt except the district of Thebes was a swamp, and none of the regions were then above water which now lie below the lake of Moiris, to which lake it is a voyage of seven days up the river from the sea: 5, and I thought that they said well about the land; for it is manifest in truth even to a person who has not heard it beforehand but has only seen, at least if he have understanding, that the Egypt to which the Hellenes come in ships is a land which has been won by the Egyptians as an addition, and that it is a gift of the river Herodutus The Histories http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/herodotus/book02.htm
Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the Excellent Order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Ta Khent (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Eau (page 952b/page 17b) = the old country
Ancient Egyptian’s Worldview:
The Egyptian’s view of the world was the exact opposite of the current Western one. To the Egyptian, the top of the world was in the south (upper) towards the African interior, the bottom (lower) towards the north, hence upper and lower Egypt; upper and lower Syria. http://www.nonsensewebsite.com/blog/tag/barbarians/ Again Ta-seti FIRST NOME AKA NUBIA.. Kemet started out as an inner African civilization and moved towards the coast that's why God's Land is in the south
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^^ I agree somehwat Melchior but when do you think the Northern Type became dominant??
Obviously by the Time the Greeks and Romans came from the images of the Fayium potraits.
Here is more on Northern Egypt some of the early cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi which predate the 1st dyansty.
"The Maadian (or Maadi-Buto)
The term Maadi-Buto or Maadian describes around twelve sites, named after the type site of Maadi in the western Delta. The sites include: Maadi, Wadi Digla (one of Maadi’s cemeteries), Heliopolis, Buto, Tura Station (Junker 1912), Giza, Merimda Beni Salama, es-Saff, Sedment (Williams 1982), Ezbet el-Qerdahi and Harageh (Engleback 1923). Both cemetery and settlement sites have been identified...The Maadi-Buto phase was not exclusive to the Cairo/western Delta area. Schmidt (1996) identifies some elements at Mostagedda and, more importantly, there were several sites in the Eastern Delta... Many hundreds of Syro-Palestinian pots have been found at Maadi, reflecting strong connections to Syro-Palestine and, probably to the evolving Uruk-Jemdet Nasr states of Greater Mesopotamia. Caneva and her co-workers report that Maadi’s lithics also tie it ‘in a wide network of communication, including the Levant and reaching northern Syria’ (1989, p.291)” (Wenke 1991, p.300).
Watson and Blin (2003) believe that they have identified an evolutionary trend in the architecture at Maadi which corresponds to examples in Palestine. Simple semi-subterranean structures were found at Maadi and may have been the prototype of another more advanced type of structure at Maadi found by Menghin and Amer, which was smaller, ovoid and accessible by steps, and these may in turn have lead to a very distinctive type of subterranean building found first found by Badawi in 1997. Badawi’s structure took the form of a rectangle with rounded edges, an entrance corridor with postholes in the middle, and depressions around the outside. It looks like a little like a prehistoric French “souterrain”. Witran and Blin point out similarities between this and Palestinian sites like Meser, Yitah’el II and Afridar in North Palestine and the typologically similar Sidon-Dakeman in South Lebanon: “By all evidence it is possible to link the Badawi structure to the Palestinian structures that we have presented as belonging to the tradition of Meser II, Sidon-Dakeman and more precisely the one of Afrider” (561)
Watrin and Blin see an evolutionary path in Palestinian architecture of the Bronze Age: “an evolution from a rectangular surface shape of buildings (succeeding the subterranean dwellings) to an ovoid sub-surface structure . . . . Around the same period, the site of Maadi appears to present an evolution from semi-underground storage spaces of elliptical shape dug into the ground to semi-underground constructions of roughly sub-rectangular shape with walls built of rubble and mud bricks, and finally to subterranean architecture of oval shape in stone. They conclude from the architectural evidence that “Maadian architecture underwent both direct/indirect internal evolutions and internal/external evolution, and that the Maadian structures evolved into a hybrid architecture featuring elements of both Egyptian and Palestinian ancestry” (Olin and Blin 2003, p.564)." http://www.faiyum.com/html/chalcolithic__maadi-buto_.html
So we can see early contacts and influence from the Palestine and the Middle East was not insignificant.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^^^^ Thanks Melchior, your cool you are very uniased like unlike many other posters here. From what I can tell so far the Nile Valley from Aswan to Quift had a large population density, and from Fayium to the Head of the Delta as well.
It seems the Southern Egyptians were the dominant players at least until the Ramses House. Although many people in the North and Delta were probably just as black as Southern Egyptians. Dont forget about groups like the Natufians.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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but those in the North have always been more Middle Eastern looking.
^Nonsense on 3 counts: Northern Egypt has had more influence from the Mediterranean and Levant, but dark-skinned tropical Egyptians have always been in place there- in ancient times and recent. On 3 counts your claim of "always Middle eastern looking" is bogus:
{a) Dark skinned Egyptians are well represented in the north, (b) limb proportion studies of the ancient north show the population to cluster more with tropical Africans, than "Middle Easterners" and (c) 'Middle eastern looking" ALSO includes dark skin. "Middle Eastern" people come in all shades and looks. In fact, early Middle Easterners looked like tropical Africans who are not stereotyped as you would have them, but have quite a range of features.
posted
@ Zarahan are you sure that Girl is a Northern Fellahin, not saying its not a possibility but I have not found any data on that particular image.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^^Jari, based on a Google search for northern delta Egyptians. But even if she is from Middle or south it doesn't matter. We sll know that the far north, being nearer the Mediterranean and Levant had small scale movement from Hyskos, Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs in various eras, but there is plenty of dark skin, (including brown skin) in the North, especially among the fellahin, the rural people. The key point is that there are those who want to whitewash these OTHER Egyptians away. As one mainstream reference notes:
"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")
The concept of "Middle eastern looking" is bogus and reveals a hypocritical double standard. "Middle eastern" people can be dark-skinned with non-straight hair but they still get to be "Middle Eastern". However when it comes to Africans, AFRICANS aren't supposed to vary, they are all supposed to look alike. A concept like "Middle eastern looking" exposes the hypocritical double-standard once again.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^^ Zarahan I agree. Despite recent Genetics studies showing that so called "Back Migrations" went both ways, and that blacks are found out side of africa people want to still egualte blacks to one place on Earth and Give so called Caucasians a full range from Northern Europe to India and East Africa.
Plenty of Egyptians in the North would have been Dark Skinned.
I was only asking because it would be interesting if the Girl was a Northern Fellahin. Despite what location she if from she is still a Native Egyptian and remnant of Dynastic Egyptians.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^^Indeed Jari, she very well might be. But here is another pic from a journalist who specifically went to Lower Egypt - Oshkar, Egypt, near Giza, to talk to the peasant farmers. They took this pic- 197os.
By the way your quote on density shows that as far as population, the area near the Mediterranean coast was actually one of the lower density ones, and defeats attempts to run down the south as if it were unimportant. But it is from the south that the dynasties sprung. Good quote.
"Butzer’s (1976) figures demonstrate that throughout the dynastic period the Egyptian population numbers were denser between Aswan and Qift, and between the Faiyum and the head of the Delta. The Delta and the southern wide floodplain were more sparsely populated.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Exactly, so that means that Alexandria was part of this "Sparse Population" so my question is when did the Modern Delta and Cirian Egyptians become Dominant. The Fayium Portrait are very reminicent of Modern Egyptians and we know the Fayium were Greek/Egyptian Mullattos. So We know by the Roman Occupation the Delta and Cairian Egyptians were becoming more Dominant.
I think around the fall of the New Kingdom maybe..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DaHoslips101: Not true. Ancient, pre-Ptolemaic capital cities in the north included:
Memphis, Herakleopolis, Itjtawy (in the Faiyoum) region) Xois, Avaris, Pi-Ramesses, Bubastis, Sais and Mendes.
And what the hell do the capitals--most of which were built in the neck of Egypt (between the Delta and Valley) for obvious political reasons-- have to do with the actual population sizes in ancient versus modern times??
Population centers does NOT equal overall population sizes. Also, you forget that ancient Egypt had relatively few cities compared to other ancient civilizations contemporaneous with it. The vast majority of Egypt's population was non-urban living in villages scattered throughout the nation.
Can you say non-sequitor?
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The population of Egypt expanded around the Napoleonic era(1790's to mid 1800's). During this period the population shift and birth rates became greater in Lower Egypt than that of Middle and Upper Egypt. Fellahin migrating from the Delta added expediently to the growing population of northern Egypt. Most of the modern Cairene population is actually made up of Delta Fellahin and Sa3eedi from Middle to Upper Egypt. Scattered amongst both are Cairenes which have been in Cairo for time immortal.
Most Khawagas posting here donot realize that Fellahin in the Delta and Middle Egypt have mixture from western Asians. Some descend from bedouins who took up agriculture during the Islamic era in Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Indeed Jari, she very well might be. But here is another pic from a journalist who specifically went to Lower Egypt - Oshkar, Egypt, near Giza, to talk to the peasant farmers. They took this pic- 197os.
By the way your quote on density shows that as far as population, the area near the Mediterranean coast was actually one of the lower density ones, and defeats attempts to run down the south as if it were unimportant. But it is from the south that the dynasties sprung. Good quote.
"Butzer’s (1976) figures demonstrate that throughout the dynastic period the Egyptian population numbers were denser between Aswan and Qift, and between the Faiyum and the head of the Delta. The Delta and the southern wide floodplain were more sparsely populated.
Here is a photo of a man from rural Giza taken more recently.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Exactly, so that means that Alexandria was part of this "Sparse Population" so my question is when did the Modern Delta and Cirian Egyptians become Dominant. The Fayium Portrait are very reminicent of Modern Egyptians and we know the Fayium were Greek/Egyptian Mullattos. So We know by the Roman Occupation the Delta and Cairian Egyptians were becoming more Dominant.
I think around the fall of the New Kingdom maybe..
Mind you, one point that Ausar brought up was that during the Ptolemaic period the city of Alexandria was actually segregated with native Egyptians being barred from the city with exception of servants and traders!! This policy of apartheid that was implemented in Alexandria only was done for the obvious reason for fear of rebellion against the foreign Ptolemaic rulers. Nevertheless, the Ptolemies and Cleopatra in particular fully adopted the culture and customs of the people. That Alexandria was segregated from native Egyptians until after the fall of Rome makes it more difficult for 'Rahotep's' argument that Alexandrians are representative of ancient Egyptians. In fact, wasn't there a cranial study showing this is not the case at all??
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: The population of Egypt expanded around the Napoleonic era(1790's to mid 1800's). During this period the population shift and birth rates became greater in Lower Egypt than that of Middle and Upper Egypt. Fellahin migrating from the Delta added expediently to the growing population of northern Egypt. Most of the modern Cairene population is actually made up of Delta Fellahin and Sa3eedi from Middle to Upper Egypt. Scattered amongst both are Cairenes which have been in Cairo for time immortal.
Most Khawagas posting here donot realize that Fellahin in the Delta and Middle Egypt have mixture from western Asians. Some descend from bedouins who took up agriculture during the Islamic era in Egypt.
^^ Straight from a true Egyptian. Thanks, Ausar. I remember you mentioning this before but I forgot what time period the Delta population began to expand. And what about Ottoman times?
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Rahotep Not true. Ancient, pre-Ptolemaic capital cities in the north included: Memphis, Herakleopolis, Itjtawy (in the Faiyoum) region) Xois, Avaris, Pi-Ramesses, Bubastis, Sais and Mendes.
Number Egyptian Name Capital Modern Capital Translation
1 Ta-Seti Abu / Yebu (Elephantine) Aswan Land of the bow 2 Wetjes-Hor Djeba (Apollonopolis Magna) Edfu Throne of Horus 3 Ten Nekhen (Hierakonpolis) al-Kab Shrine 4 Waset Niwt-rst / Waset (Thebes) Karnak Sceptre 5 Herui Gebtu (Coptos) Qift The two falcons 6 Aa-ta Lunet / Tantere (Tentyra) Dendera The crocodile 7 Seshesh Seshesh (Diospolis Parva) Hu Sistrum 8 Abdju Abdju (Abydos) al-Birba Great land 9 Min Apu / Khen-min (Panopolis) Akhmim Min 10 Wadkhet Djew-qa (Aphroditopolis) Ifteh Cobra 11 Set Shashotep (Hypselis) Shutb The creature associated with Set 12 Tu-ph Hut-Sekhem-Senusret (Antaeopolis) Qaw al-Kebir Viper mountain 13 Atef-Khent Zawty (z3wj-tj, Lycopolis) Asyut Upper Sycamore and Viper 14 Atef-Pehu Qesy (Cusae) al-Qusiya Lower Sycamore and Viper 15 Un Khemenu (Hermopolis Magna) al-Ashmunayn Hare 16 Meh-Mahetch Hebenu Kom el Ahmar Oryx 17 Anpu Saka (Cynopolis) al-Kais Anubis 18 Sep Teudjoi / Hutnesut (Alabastronopolis) el-Hiba Set 19 Uab Per-Medjed (Oxyrhynchus) el-Bahnasa Two Sceptres 20 Atef-Khent Henen-nesut (Herakleopolis Magna) Ihnasiyyah al-Madinah Southern Sycamore 21 Atef-Pehu Shenakhen / Semenuhor (Crocodilopolis, Arsinoe) Madinat al-Fayyum Northern Sycamore 22 Maten Tepihu (Aphroditopolis) Atfih Knife
DJ knew this.
The area of the delta was swamp land made livable by drainage. goods and services were more important with the other polities on the Nile before they cared about the coast Waset or Wose was the premier city for thousands of yrs, the cities on the coast did became important but did not eclipse those of the south until the Greco Roman era
They said also that the first man who became king of Egypt was Min; and that in his time all Egypt except the district of Thebes was a swamp, and none of the regions were then above water which now lie below the lake of Moiris, to which lake it is a voyage of seven days up the river from the sea: 5, and I thought that they said well about the land; for it is manifest in truth even to a person who has not heard it beforehand but has only seen, at least if he have understanding, that the Egypt to which the Hellenes come in ships is a land which has been won by the Egyptians as an addition, and that it is a gift of the river Herodutus The Histories http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/herodotus/book02.htm
Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the Excellent Order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Ta Khent (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Eau (page 952b/page 17b) = the old country
Ancient Egyptian’s Worldview:
The Egyptian’s view of the world was the exact opposite of the current Western one. To the Egyptian, the top of the world was in the south (upper) towards the African interior, the bottom (lower) towards the north, hence upper and lower Egypt; upper and lower Syria. http://www.nonsensewebsite.com/blog/tag/barbarians/ Again Ta-seti FIRST NOME AKA NUBIA.. Kemet started out as an inner African civilization and moved towards the coast that's why God's Land is in the south
Brada, are those really capitals or are they just sepati (nomes)?? Yes we all know the reason why the nomes are listed from south to north with Ta Seti being the very first. All archaeology shows the civilization originated in the south. Even dynasties 0-4 hail from the south.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The population of Egypt stayed consistent until around the Napoleonic period. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of consistent census information in Ptolemaic Egypt to Roman times. We do have some census information from scattered sources from the Islamic period to Ottoman period. I believe Josephus gives the Roman Egyptian population to be about 6 million people including foreigners.
Another phenomenon often ignored is during the time of heavy taxation in both Roman and Islamic periods in Egypt's history there was a great migration of peasants from Lower Egypt into Upper Egypt. Upper Egypt was always a region in occupied Egypt that was less governed than Lower Egypt.
Most likely the heavily admixed Lower Egyptian population fled into part of Middle Egypt and Upper Egypt. Probably further into Nubia as well. This aspect is documented by Greco-Roman sources and Arabic sources. Everybody from Strabo to al-Maqrizi.
The population demographics in Egypt is very complex and deserves study from antiquity into the modern era. From the urban Egypt to rural Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Does anybody here read the books and articles I reference? All are reliable mainstream scholarship. Right know I am pressed from time because otherwise I would post appropriate excerpts.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I was just clarifying. Your last post was so silly and this thread really deserved to die since the original challenge issued has been met. Your insistence that the later period Egyptians were reflective of their predecessors is so ill informed and ignores the study of epigenetic traits carried out by Sonia Zakrzewski that find Late and subsequently modern Egyptians to not be reflective of early ones. Modern Egyptians may resemble late period Egyptians, but neither late period Egyptians nor Modern Egyptians resemble Early Egyptians. And no study that has been unrefuted shows them to have any sore of affinity with Eurasians over Africans.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Brada, are those really capitals or are they just sepati (nomes)?? Yes we all know the reason why the nomes are listed from south to north with Ta Seti being the very first. All archaeology shows the civilization originated in the south. Even dynasties 0-4 hail from the south.
those are the Nomes of upper Kemet Nomes of Lower Kemet starts with Memphis 1st Nome a city that Menes won from the Nile to make the delta habitable as reported by Herodotus if there is a mistake please jump in and make the correction each one teach one.
earlier I posted that Grave goods passed from Syria Palestine to Ta-Seti without stopping in Kemet that is in error such goods were found in Kemet proper.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Thanks Melchior, your cool you are very uniased like unlike many other posters here. From what I can tell so far the Nile Valley from Aswan to Quift had a large population density, and from Fayium to the Head of the Delta as well.
It seems the Southern Egyptians were the dominant players at least until the Ramses House. Although many people in the North and Delta were probably just as black as Southern Egyptians. Dont forget about groups like the Natufians.
Yes but the Natufians were there around 10,000 BC or so. Also I believe you know me from the Topix forums.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Melchior said:
but those in the North have always been more Middle Eastern looking.
^Nonsense on 3 counts: Northern Egypt has had more influence from the Mediterranean and Levant, but dark-skinned tropical Egyptians have always been in place there- in ancient times and recent. On 3 counts your claim of "always Middle eastern looking" is bogus:
{a) Dark skinned Egyptians are well represented in the north, (b) limb proportion studies of the ancient north show the population to cluster more with tropical Africans, than "Middle Easterners" and (c) 'Middle eastern looking" ALSO includes dark skin. "Middle Eastern" people come in all shades and looks. In fact, early Middle Easterners looked like tropical Africans who are not stereotyped as you would have them, but have quite a range of features.
Would you say these examples below are Middle Eastern looking?
In fact, early Middle Easterners looked like tropical Africans
Yes porbably very early on in prehistoric times.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^^^^ Yeah I had the same name on Topix,(Jari or Jari-Ankhamun) but I don't remember your particular name from Topix, did you have another name??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I was just clarifying. Your last post was so silly and this thread really deserved to die since the original challenge issued has been met. Your insistence that the later period Egyptians were reflective of their predecessors is so ill informed and ignores the study of epigenetic traits carried out by Sonia Zakrzewski that find Late and subsequently modern Egyptians to not be reflective of early ones. Modern Egyptians may resemble late period Egyptians, but neither late period Egyptians nor Modern Egyptians resemble Early Egyptians. And no study that has been unrefuted shows them to have any sore of affinity with Eurasians over Africans.
Give me a time period for your so called "early Egyptians"
And why don't you post this study by Sonia Zakrzewski so I can prove you're a simpleton?
Oh and answer this
Waay late? Lol This presumes that Egyptians automatically change due to time and the inlfuence of invasions/migrations etc. Yet you fail to realize that these quotes are from about 2000 years in the past! And they are still largely relfective of the demographic situation in Egypt Today. Why no significant change???Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Yeah I had the same name on Topix,(Jari or Jari-Ankhamun) but I don't remember your particular name from Topix, did you have another name??
Yes. I started out with a Jimi Hendrix avatar.
I noticed people on here seem a bit more intelligent than on Topix. I can understand why you don't visit there much anymore.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Give me a time period for your so called "early Egyptians"
The early groups would be the OK, LPD, MK, Archaic, EPD, and Badarian samples used in her study. For more details on the samples see Keita and Boyce (2006)
quote:Give me a time period for your so called "early Egyptians"
And why don't you post this study by Sonia Zakrzewski so I can prove you're a simpleton?
posted
OK Cool I know who you are now. Im sure you want to keep it a secret. Yeah Topix was once a good place but it was infiltrated by Trolls who turned everything racial.
E.S does have a better quality to its posters.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Yeah I had the same name on Topix,(Jari or Jari-Ankhamun) but I don't remember your particular name from Topix, did you have another name??
Yes. I started out with a Jimi Hendrix avatar.
I noticed people on here seem a bit more intelligent than on Topix. I can understand why you don't visit there much anymore.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Give me a time period for your so called "early Egyptians"
The early groups would be the OK, LPD, MK, Archaic, EPD, and Badarian samples used in her study. For more details on the samples see Keita and Boyce (2006)
quote:Give me a time period for your so called "early Egyptians"
And why don't you post this study by Sonia Zakrzewski so I can prove you're a simpleton?
Ok, I read were she mentions discontinuity from the New Kingdom onwards. Just for the record, you do realize the New Kingdom comprises the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties? And this is the period that saw some of the greatest and most reknown pharoahs like Ahmose I, Hatshepsut, Thutmose III, Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun?? And of course this would include subsequent dynasties as well like the one which saw Ramses II etc.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^What's your point? She is saying that there was an increase in foreign elements during the New Kingdom (as seen by the corresponding citation).
quote:Just for the record, you do realize the New Kingdom comprises the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties? And this is the period that saw some of the greatest and most reknown pharoahs like Ahmose I, Hatshepsut, Thutmose III, Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun?? And of course this would include subsequent dynasties as well like the one which saw Ramses II etc.
SO???
Several of the Pharaohs you mentioned above actually had strong southern affinities. And yes, even the New Kingdom Pharaohs represented great(er) heterogeneity due to increased influence, how is this news? This doesn't mean that every single New Kingdom individual had foreign ancestry you know. As a matter of fact, Zakrzewski's 2011 paper actually showed the inhabitants of Armana to have a specific set of characteristics (i.e., homogeneous) meaning they were indigenous
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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So basically if we follow Zakrzewski's study then modern Egyptians are not all genetically distant from the folks back during Egypt's glory days when they were kicking ass and building empires.
Several of the Pharaohs you mentioned above actually had strong southern affinities.
Yes I'm sure someone can find some little trait to focus on and put a big Afrocentric spin on things. But just the same, folks like Mathilda can point to a dental analysis indicating that they cluster more with Eurasians. In any case, Zakrzewski says from the New Kingdom onward and you are now trying to back peddle and salvage some of the New Kingdom pharoahs.
Also what foreign element does she attribute this change to? From the time period in question it would seem to be the Hyksos. I never thought they had that much of an impact. I thought that they had kept themselves apart..interesting.
And the study of the inhabitants of Akenaten's little town of Amarna doesn't speak for all Egyptians at that time, does it? Hey here is a study that shows that an area in Southern Egypt in ancient times was largerly Eurasian and has since become more BLACK!
"Attempts to extract ancient DNA or aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains have yielded mainly Eurasian DNA types from the Dakleh Oasis cemetery site (from Southern Egypt), and they show a considerable increase in the amount of sub Saharan mitchondrial DNA over the past 2,000 years, suggesting that within this timeframe there was more migration from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Nile Valley than from Eurasia to the latter.[19] One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, a minority of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa." Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
Not what you would expect huh?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^My post flew right over your head, didn't it?
quote:So basically if we follow Zakrzewski's study then modern Egyptians are not all genetically distant from the folks back during Egypt's glory days when they were kicking ass and building empires.
How stupid are you? Where in the study did she say that? Let me answer that for you: she didn't. I'll try to make this as easy for you to understand as possible: there is discontinuity in the New Kingdom onwards because there was increasing foreign influence during that time period. As I already told you, this does NOT mean that there was suddenly a replacement or significant gene flow occurring immediately, as she specifically states that there was a gradual assimilation- i.e., over time. Which of course means that not all Egyptians all of a sudden had foreign ancestry.
quote:Yes I'm sure someone can find some little trait to focus on and put a big Afrocentric spin on things. But just the same, folks like Mathilda can point to a dental analysis indicating that they cluster more with Eurasians.
Fine, lets see this evidence then.
quote:In any case, Zakrzewski says from the New Kingdom onward and you are now trying to back peddle and salvage some of the New Kingdom pharoahs.
The reason you are so confused is because you haven't read it, right? If you would notice the little number right after she makes that claim, that means that there is a corresponding citation for said claim. In this case being Berry and Berry. I am not backtracking on anything. You just fail to put the whole thing into context. Think of it like this:
1)During the New Kingdom there is a gradual increase in foreign influence
2)Over time this influence would have a more significant effect on the population (e.g., late period)
3)Therefore, the modern population would be even more distinct from early groups because they have been more affected by migration than New Kingdom Inhabitants
That is what Zakrzewski is saying in a nutshell.
quote:And the study of the inhabitants of Akenaten's little town of Amarna doesn't speak for all Egyptians at that time, does it? Hey here is a study that shows that an area in Southern Egypt in ancient times was largerly Eurasian and has since become more BLACK!
I'm just telling you how it is. And when did I say it was representative of all of Egypt? Don't be retarded.
quote:"Attempts to extract ancient DNA or aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains have yielded mainly Eurasian DNA types from the Dakleh Oasis cemetery site (from Southern Egypt), and they show a considerable increase in the amount of sub Saharan mitchondrial DNA over the past 2,000 years, suggesting that within this timeframe there was more migration from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Nile Valley than from Eurasia to the latter.[19] One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, a minority of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa." Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
This is sad indeed that you would resort to Wikipedia. You didn't even read the study, because Paabo did NOT find any Eurasian lineages. What he found were sub-Saharan lineages and the rest remained unidentified your quote is not an actual quote from Paabo and Di Rienzio liar. Learn to cite from actual scientific reports.
The frequencies obtained from the Dakleh Oasis study are flawed seeing as how they use a marker that does not test for other Sub-Saharan (e.g., L3) lineages
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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How stupid are you? Where in the study did she say that? Let me answer that for you: she didn't. I'll try to make this as easy for you to understand as possible
She didn't have to say that. Some folks can read between the lines and don't need everything spoon fed to them unlike you. The foreign influence correposnds to the occupation of the Hyksos. And the discontinuity begins around the time of their departure. Meaning that the foreign genetic influence had been occuring overtime until it reached the point where there was definitee genetitic shift in the general popluation. And that point was reached in the by the begining of the New Kingdom.
Fine, lets see this evidence then. Wait.
During the New Kingdom there is a gradual increase in foreign influence
Obviously this foreign infuence occured prior to the New Kingdom. The words she used was genetic discontinuity..genetic separation from the earlier group, in other words it was a Fait accompli. She didn't say the begining of a gradual discontinuity. She is saying that by the time of the New Kingdom a new genetic identity had been established. Try and understand the concept.
And when did I say it was representative of all of Egypt?
Don't be disingenous. You know full well why you brought it up.. to imply that by the time of Akhenaton many Egyptians still retained southern traits as you put it. If you thought this was an isolated incident, why the hell would you bring it up?
This is sad indeed that you would resort to Wikipedia.
The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt
Actually there are some that hold that part of Egypt has become Blacker over time. This would be due to Nubian rule and the cintinued use and mixture with Nubian soldiers, not to mention the slave trade in Egypt.
"The trans-Saharan slave trade grew significantly from the 10th to the 15th century, as vast African empires such as Ghana, Mali, Songhai, and Kanem-Bornu developed south of the Sahara and marshaled the trade. Arab slave raiders also penetrated south, up the Nile River to present-day Ethiopia, capturing thousands of slaves and sending them down the Nile to Egypt. Over the course of more than a thousand years, the trans-Saharan slave trade saw the movement of at least 10 million enslaved men, women, and children from West and East Africa to North Africa, the Middle East, and India. The slaves and their descendants contributed to the harems, royal households, and armies of the Arab, Turkish, and Persian rulers in those regions.
Slavery existed for much of the 19th century in Egypt. Slavery in the Khedivate was not unlike slavery in Ancient Egypt. The great bulk of the labor force was the landless peasantry. Slaves were a small part of the labor force and concentrated in a few specific activities. Slavery followed the pattern set during earlier historical periods, most recently Egypt's position as a province of the Ottoman Empire. Slavery was similar in Egyopt to that of the wider Arab world. The Mamuluks were destinctive to Egypt. Egypt had access to as well as access to African slaves and until the early-19th century had access to the European catives of the Barbary pirates. There were both white and black slaves as well as male and female slaves. Slavery gradually disappeared in Egypt during the 19th century. Formal abolition was just part of this transition. Although defeated by the Ottomans and Napoleon, the Mamluks still had considerable influence in Egypt and important positions. They were annililated in a great massacre conducted by Muhammed Ali (1811). This ended their rule as a ruling aristocracy. They continued to play an important role in the military and government administration. Many Mamluks and other white make slaves were owned by Turks (non-Arab Ottomans) and increasingly wealthy Egyptians. [Baer, p. 147.] The slave population of Egypt during the 19th century was an estimasted 20,000-30,000, although there is no precise accounting. Certainly they were a small fraction out of out of the overall populstion of about 5 million people. About half of Egyptian slaves were concentrated in Egyot. The number of slaves in Cairo has been estimated at 12,000-15,000 in a city of about 350,000 people. Female slaves might be kept in harems. Wealthy Turks preferred Circassian females (white women who were primarily obtained in the Caucasus). More humble Egyptain harems were more commonly Abyssinians (Africans). While male and female Negro slaves were commonly used as domestic servants. Black slaves were used as soldiers as well as the decling number of Mamluks. African slaves were also used as agricultural labor, although this was a very small part of the largely peasant labor force. The estates of the Muhammed Ali family were worked by African slaves. [Baer] The supression of the slave trade was largely brought about by the British. The first major step was the First Anglo-Egyptian Convention (1877). One focus of the effort was the Sudan. Sudan was seen by Egyptian officials as a part of Egypt. The Sudan was more traditional than Egypt itself and a more austere form of Islam widely followed. And the slave trade was an important part of the economy whoch was not the case in Egypt. British governors were appointed in the Sudan. The most notable was Charles "Chinese" Girdon. Special missions were dispatched to supress the slave trade. The Mahdist revolution delayed the effort in the Sudan (1881). More aggressive steps were taken after the establishment of the British Protectorate (1882)."
Islam's Black Slaves records: "In the 1570's, a Frenchman visiting Egypt found many thousands of blacks on sale in Cairo on market days. In 1665 Father Antonios Gonzalis, a Spanish/Belgian traveller, reported 800 - 1000 slaves on sale in the Cairo market on a single day. In 1796, a British traveller reported a caravan of 5000 slaves departing from Darfur. In 1838, it was estimated that 10000 to 12000 slaves were arriving in Cairo each year." Islam's Black Slaves, by Ronald Segal, Farrar, New York, 2001
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Here is the study about anceint Egyptian teeth. It's from Mathilda's site so..
Department of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7720, USA. ffjdi@uaf.edu
Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times. Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Sub Saharan teeth are described as being complex, massive teeth, not similar to the ancient Egyptians, who had simple mass reduced teeth like modern North Africans.
This chart shows the relative similarities between the teeth of different populations. As you can see, the Egyptians don’t cluster with the Sub Saharan African teeth (marked by black triangles)"
You asked to see it..
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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I was just clarifying. Your last post was so silly and this thread really deserved to die since the original challenge issued has been met. Your insistence that the later period Egyptians were reflective of their predecessors is so ill informed and ignores the study of epigenetic traits carried out by Sonia Zakrzewski that find Late and subsequently modern Egyptians to not be reflective of early ones. Modern Egyptians may resemble late period Egyptians, but neither late period Egyptians nor Modern Egyptians resemble Early Egyptians. And no study that has been unrefuted shows them to have any sore of affinity with Eurasians over Africans.
Correct. I don't know why anyone in the right mind would suggest that modern Egyptians are the same as ancient ones, ignoring 2,000 years of invasions and immigrations into the country. This is not only supported from the anthropological data but also documented in historical records as Ausar has stated many times. Even during the Arab colonial times the Caliphate would invite various Arab tribes to enter the country as part of an Arabization policy.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Would you say these examples below are Middle Eastern looking?
In fact, early Middle Easterners looked like tropical Africans
Yes probably very early on in prehistoric times.
^^ The top scribe above had more paint once...
His features look no different from the Somali man in the green shirt.
Two ancient Egyptian brothers of the Delta.
As far as "Middle Easterners" looking like Africans, well the Middle East is right next to Africa and there are Middle Easterners who look African even today.
Sinai
Yemen [img]
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:She didn't have to say that. Some folks can read between the lines and don't need everything spoon fed to them unlike you. The foreign influence correposnds to the occupation of the Hyksos. And the discontinuity begins around the time of their departure. Meaning that the foreign genetic influence had been occuring overtime until it reached the point where there was definitee genetitic shift in the general popluation. And that point was reached in the by the begining of the New Kingdom.
So I take it you've read the full study to understand its context? No, you haven't. How many times do I have to tell you that she is using another paper for her statement? You have no idea what she is saying, because quite frankly you don't even own the study. Now let me explain this for the last time, the article that she references for the statement on discontinuity from the New Kingdom onwards is THIS article:
Berry, A.C., & Berry, R.J., 1972, ‘Origins and Relationships of the Ancient Egyptians, Based on the Study of Non-Metrical Variations in the Skull’, Journal of Human Evolution, 1, 1972: 199-206; p.203
"...STABILITY and HOMOGENEITY persisted right through the Old and Middle Kingdoms, and breaks down only in the New Kingdom period, when we know from many sources that there was considerable infiltration into the Nile Valley."
The above article is that what she bases her statement on. Your assessment is so ill informed because you have no idea what you are talking about. Of course there was some form of minor gene flow prior to the New Kingdom, which was restricted to LOWER Egypt. But there was no significant influence until the New Kingdom.
quote:Try and understand the concept.
No, YOU try and understand what I already told you. Because you can not possibly understand the article since you haven't read it. Plain and simple.
quote:Did I? Read it here then.
You falsely made it seem as if what you posted was a quote from Paabo and Di Rienzio by using quotation marks and listing their book as the reference. The site you referred me to offers NO peer-reviewed scientific reports.
quote:Actually there are some that hold that part of Egypt has become Blacker over time. This would be due to Nubian rule and the cintinued use and mixture with Nubian soldiers, not to mention the slave trade in Egypt.
You do realize that the bit about the slave trade you posted says that there were 20-30,000 where more than half were located in Lower Egypt? Where is your evidence that the slave trade was dominant in Upper (Southern) Egypt? What you are proposing is ridiculous. Gene flow from Nubian rule is equally idiotic. What about all the gene flow from Persian, Greek etc., rule? The difference is this:
Current patterns of the most common variants (V, XI, and IV) have been suggested to be primarily related to Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom political actions in Nubia, including occasional settler colonization, and the conquest of Egypt by Kush (in upper Nubia, northern Sudan), thus initiating the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty. However, a synthesis of evidence from archaeology, historical linguistics, texts, distribution of haplotypes outside Egypt, and some demographic considerations lends greater support to the establishment, before the Middle Kingdom, of the observed distributions of the most prevalent haplotypes V, XI, and IV. It is suggested that the pattern of diversity for these variants in the Egyptian Nile Valley was largely the product of population events that occurred in the late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene through the First Dynasty, and was sustained by continuous smaller-scale bidirectional migrations/interactions.--Keita, 2005 (History in the Interpretation of the Pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y-Chromosome Variation in Egypt: A Consideration of Multiple Lines of Evidence)
These genetic variants are long before Sudanese rule of Egypt and even prehistoric Egyptians showed affinity to Sudanese groups
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^ Correct. This proves there was continuity along the Nile from the Delta to Sudan and even farther.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Here is more on Northern Egypt some of the early cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi which predate the 1st dyansty.
"The Maadian (or Maadi-Buto)
The term Maadi-Buto or Maadian describes around twelve sites, named after the type site of Maadi in the western Delta. The sites include: Maadi, Wadi Digla (one of Maadi’s cemeteries), Heliopolis, Buto, Tura Station (Junker 1912), Giza, Merimda Beni Salama, es-Saff, Sedment (Williams 1982), Ezbet el-Qerdahi and Harageh (Engleback 1923). Both cemetery and settlement sites have been identified...The Maadi-Buto phase was not exclusive to the Cairo/western Delta area. Schmidt (1996) identifies some elements at Mostagedda and, more importantly, there were several sites in the Eastern Delta... Many hundreds of Syro-Palestinian pots have been found at Maadi, reflecting strong connections to Syro-Palestine and, probably to the evolving Uruk-Jemdet Nasr states of Greater Mesopotamia. Caneva and her co-workers report that Maadi’s lithics also tie it ‘in a wide network of communication, including the Levant and reaching northern Syria’ (1989, p.291)” (Wenke 1991, p.300).
Watson and Blin (2003) believe that they have identified an evolutionary trend in the architecture at Maadi which corresponds to examples in Palestine. Simple semi-subterranean structures were found at Maadi and may have been the prototype of another more advanced type of structure at Maadi found by Menghin and Amer, which was smaller, ovoid and accessible by steps, and these may in turn have lead to a very distinctive type of subterranean building found first found by Badawi in 1997. Badawi’s structure took the form of a rectangle with rounded edges, an entrance corridor with postholes in the middle, and depressions around the outside. It looks like a little like a prehistoric French “souterrain”. Witran and Blin point out similarities between this and Palestinian sites like Meser, Yitah’el II and Afridar in North Palestine and the typologically similar Sidon-Dakeman in South Lebanon: “By all evidence it is possible to link the Badawi structure to the Palestinian structures that we have presented as belonging to the tradition of Meser II, Sidon-Dakeman and more precisely the one of Afrider” (561)
Watrin and Blin see an evolutionary path in Palestinian architecture of the Bronze Age: “an evolution from a rectangular surface shape of buildings (succeeding the subterranean dwellings) to an ovoid sub-surface structure . . . . Around the same period, the site of Maadi appears to present an evolution from semi-underground storage spaces of elliptical shape dug into the ground to semi-underground constructions of roughly sub-rectangular shape with walls built of rubble and mud bricks, and finally to subterranean architecture of oval shape in stone. They conclude from the architectural evidence that “Maadian architecture underwent both direct/indirect internal evolutions and internal/external evolution, and that the Maadian structures evolved into a hybrid architecture featuring elements of both Egyptian and Palestinian ancestry” (Olin and Blin 2003, p.564)." http://www.faiyum.com/html/chalcolithic__maadi-buto_.html
So we can see early contacts and influence from the Palestine and the Middle East was not insignificant.
Your source above points to earlier sources of Maadi being in the west towards Libya. That there were some influences via trade and goods from the Levant is nothing new nor surprising.
That still does not change the fact that actual pharaonic culture began in the south not the north.
Also let's not forget this old study by A. Batrawi.
"The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia",The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (1946)
Since early neolithic times there existed two distinct but closely related types, a northern in Lower Egypt and a southern in Upper Egypt. The southern Egyptians were distinguished from the northerners by a smaller cranial index, a larger nasal index and greater prognathism. The geographical distinction between the two groups continued during the Pre-Dynastic Period. The Upper Egyptians, however, spread into lower Nubia during that period. By the beginning of the Dynastic era the northern Egyptian type is encountered for the first time in the Thebaïd, i.e., in the southern territory. The incursion, however, seems to have been transitory and the effects of the co-existence of the two types in one locality remained very transient until the 18th Dynasty. From this time onwards the northern type prevailed all over Egypt, as far south as Denderah, till the end of the Roman period.
In Lower Nubia a slight infiltration of negroid influence is observed during the Middle Kingdom times. In the New Empire period, however, the southern Egyptian type prevails again. After the New Empire a fresh and much stronger negro influence becomes discernable till the end of the Roman period.
There is a wide gap in our knowledge of the racial history of the two countries during the Christian and Islamic periods, owing to the lack of an adequate amount of relevant material. The study of the available measurements of the living, however, apparently suggests that the modern population all over Egypt conforms more closely to the southern type. The mean measurements for the modern Nubians are rather curious. The average cephalic index for them is significantly larger than that for the Egyptians. This is contrary to expectation based on knowledge of the characteristics of the ancient populations. No satisfactory explanation could be suggested.
The distribution of blood groups in present-day Egypt shows that the mass of population is very homogeneous and there are no significant differences, in this respect, between the Moslems and the Copts. Comparisons of head and body measurements suggest the same conclusion. [pp. 154-55]
So the only difference between northern Egyptians and southern Egyptians Egyptians was that the northerners had narrower noses and a lesser degree of prognathism since it is implied they still had that trait. Notice also that he confirms there is NO difference whatsoever between Coptic and Muslim Egyptians, debunking claims of many laymen like the poster calling himself 'Rahotep'.
Here is a more recent study on limb proportions.
Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation by Barry Kemp, Publisher: Routledge; 2 edition (December 12, 2005) p.54
"Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
There you have it.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Here is the study about anceint Egyptian teeth. It's from Mathilda's site so..
Yeah, that's right, you rely on Mathilda. Little do you know, Joel Irish was co-author of a more recent study that refuted his 2006 studies hypothesis of migration not effecting the Egyptian population.
quote:This chart shows the relative similarities between the teeth of different populations. As you can see, the Egyptians don’t cluster with the Sub Saharan African teeth (marked by black triangles)"
You asked to see it..
LOL! I already knew that you would use Irish and Hanihara before you posted. You people have no idea of the evolutionary forces that cause mass reduced teeth which are changes in diet and also the development of agriculture
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Here is the study about anceint Egyptian teeth. It's from Mathilda's site so..
Department of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7720, USA. ffjdi@uaf.edu
Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times. Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Sub Saharan teeth are described as being complex, massive teeth, not similar to the ancient Egyptians, who had simple mass reduced teeth like modern North Africans.
This chart shows the relative similarities between the teeth of different populations. As you can see, the Egyptians don’t cluster with the Sub Saharan African teeth (marked by black triangles)"
You asked to see it..
He has no idea how many times we have seen the study above and discussed it. We've discussed dental studies alone over a dozen times, more recently here and the Irish study specifically most recently here. If one were going by these standards of reduced mass teeth then many people in Sub-Sahara like Ethiopians and even some Nigerians would not be considered "Sub-Saharan" as well!!
Honestly, Melchior must come up with something better than one study or two from of all people Mathilda, the Mistress of Anthropological Mendacity. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Correct. I don't know why anyone in the right mind would suggest that modern Egyptians are the same as ancient ones, ignoring 2,000 years of invasions and immigrations into the country.
I'm not saying they are exactly the same only that they have not changed much.
"Clines and clusters versus “Race:” a test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile"
The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of “race” is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." C. Loring Brace1, David P. Tracer2, Lucia Allen Yaroch1, John Robb1, Kari Brandt1, A. Russell Nelson1Article first published online: 14 JUN 2005 DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
Apparently there are some well learned folks who disagree with y'all.
And your pictures of Sudanese do not match up at all with my Egyptian scribes. It's too damn funny.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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melchior7, I would like to interject in regards to slavery in Medieval Egypt. Its true that Cairo and Alexandria were depots for both white and black slaves. Yes, the local rulers had Abyssinian harem women. However, southern Egypt was never a major trade center for slaves. Most of the male and female slaves from sub-Saharan Africa left very little genetic traces in modern Egypt due to the fact the females were often infertile and men were gilded-meaning they had their testicles chopped off,so people trying to invoke sub-Saharan slavery as a means to blacken modern Egypt is incorrect. Its beginning to be a fallacy stated by most Eurocentric scholars and historians All of the following is attested in Arab accounts of sub-Saharan slaves in Cairo.
Just as you invoke sub-Saharan slaves blackening modern Egypt you fail to mention that there was an active trade of white Circassians in medieval Egypt that went even into the 1800's. The Egyptian feminist Hoda Shaarawi was a descent of one of the Circassian harem women in the late 1800's. I could just as equally argue that these slaves whitened the Egyptian population but have been neglected due to their color being white.
The other problem also with the 25th dynasty blackening the ancient Egyptians is fallacious due to the fact that most of the Nubian pharaohs ruled from Napata in Sudan and not from any region in Egypt. True, Nubians were installed in Waster as both the priests and wives of Amun but there was not much intermingling with Egyptians. By the time of the 25th dynasty the Delta region was already flooded with Libyan tribes from the previous Libyan dynasty. Pianki when he invaded Lower Egypt refused to bread bread with the local rulers in the delta.
The similar claim of Nubian mercenaries blackening the Egyptian population is also invalid. Syrian prisoner of war and mercenaries also came to Egypt in great numbers. Textual accounts attest to their large numbers. I could likewise argue that these Syrians lightened up the ancient Egyptian populations.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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My reference to Zakrzewski (2011) was to prove the point that there wasn't a fast diffusion of foreigners in the New Kingdom but gradual assimilation over extended periods of time. Of course, she makes this perfectly clear in her 2005 article.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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The above article is that what she bases her statement on. Your assessment is so ill informed because you have no idea what you are talking about. Of course there was some form of minor gene flow prior to the New Kingdom, which was restricted to LOWER Egypt. But there was no significant influence until the New Kingdom.
If you really know anything about Egypt please tell me given the time period what this Foreign influence would likely correposnd to??
The site you referred me to offers NO peer-reviewed scientific reports.
When are you going to post the so called legitimate version which supposedly excludes the mention of Eurasian? Until then you got no case.
Gene flow from Nubian rule is equally idiotic
Only to a fool who believes that Nubians were similar in phenotype to the Egyptians which I'm sure you do. How can it not be??
Were they really the same?
How many Afrocentrics know that Nubains spoke a totally unrelated language to Egyptians. Can you explain that one to me??
Also your quote by Keita is speculation. Why don't they what those mysterious haplogroups are?
Here is what others have to say.
"One of the most common ways of assessing population relationships has been the comparative analysis of skull types. Such a study was carried out by the physical anthropologist C. Loring Brace and five co-researchers (Brace et al., 1993) who statistically analyzed a range of 24 cranial measurements from diverse world samples, including ancient Egyptians. The results of the analysis suggest that ancient Egyptian crania had elements in common with those from Southwest Asia and Neolithic Europe, as well as North and Northeast Africa. However, the Egyptian skulls showed very little similarity to African crania from the more distant south and west. The plot below shows, as accurately as is possible in two dimensions, the relationships between craniofacial configurations of the various regional samples. The predynastic sample from Upper Egypt lies very close to the West Eurasian group but also shows tendencies toward some neighboring African groups; this should not be surprising given Egypt's geographical position near the crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe. The northern Egyptians deviate even more strongly from the tropical African pattern, and indeed their closest relatives appear to be western Eurasians and coastal North Africans. Notice that the pooled group of Sub-Saharan Africans from the southern, central, and western regions of the continent does not resemble Egyptians at all: this group is plotted very distant from both ancient Egyptian samples. Similar conclusions are reached by Howells (1989, 1995) and Froment (1992, 1994)"
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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LOL! I already knew that you would use Irish and Hanihara before you posted. You people have no idea of the evolutionary forces that cause mass reduced teeth which are changes in diet and also the development of agriculture
I didn't say I stood by it. In a previous post I said for any study you cite that says that the Egyptians cluster with Sub-Saharan Africans, I can find another study which has them cluster with Eurasians...and modern Egyptians.
You've proably seen this before..
Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago.
Borgognini-Tarli and G. Paoli, 1982. The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the bloodgroup distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Here is more on Northern Egypt some of the early cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi which predate the 1st dyansty.
Everyone knows Maadi and Merimda were in place in the early period and had some trade with places like Palestine, The key point is that actual gene flow from "Middle Eastern" sources was quite small. And as to Maadi and such, the conservative Cambridge History of Africa notes:
"While not attempting to underestimate the contribution that Deltaic political and religious institutions made to those of a united Egypt, many Egyptologists now discount the idea that a united prehistoric kingdom of Lower Egypt ever existed."
"While communities such as Ma'adi appear to have played an important role in entrepots through which goods and ideas form south-west Asia filtered into the Nile Valley in later prehistoric times, the main cultural and political tradition that gave rise to the cultural pattern of Early Dynastic Egypt is to be found not in the north but in the south."
--The Cambridge History of Africa: Volume 1, From the Earliest Times to c. 500 BC, (Cambridge University Press: 1982), Edited by J. Desmond Clark pp. 500-509
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As to the population affinities of the ancient north, limb proportions of just these places show affinities more with tropical Africans than "middle Easterners", as conservative Egyptologist Barry Kemp notes below. In fact, the differences were distinct between Maadi etc and Palestine:
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." -- (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
and..
"Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. Mean femur length in males from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were longer than at the other sites shown, but again, the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the impression of an African rather than Levantine affinity." -- Smith, P. (2002) The palaeo-biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern Levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millennia BCE. in E.C.M van den Brink and TE Levy, eds. Egypt and the Levant: interrelations from the 4th through the 3rd millenium, BCE. Leicester Univ Press: 2002, 118-28
In yet another recent study the ancient Egyptians grouped with African-Americans and tropical Africans rather than Europeans..
"These same log shape variables were subjected to two forms of cluster analysis: neighbor-joining (NJ) and unweighted pair-group method using averages (UPGMA) tree analysis. Figure 8 is the NJ tree. It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]." --Holiday, T. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data. AmerJrPhyAntrho, 142: 2. 287-302
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Dental studies find Egyptians cluster most closely with other tropical Africans than Europeans or Middle easterners
"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."
-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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"Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. Mean femur length in males from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were longer than at the other sites shown, but again, the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the impression of an African rather than Levantine affinity."
Limb porportions are but one trait, obviously hair and teeth were not tropically adapted fro some strange reason.
How about this.
"The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. � 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc."
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l Borgognini-Tarli and G. Paoli, 1982. The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the bloodgroup distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."
^Are you still recycling a "white Egypt" based on this? You might as well show your true colors. If you had actually read the study you would have seen that while Paoli finds that Egyptians resemble Egyptians more than others (no surprise there), he found higher levels of Type B and O in Egyptians and Europeans. The "leucoderm match" was based on "type A" blood, But unfortunately for your white Egypt thesis, type A is ALSO common in Africa, and in areas near to Egypt like the Sudan.
[b]Thus type 'A" blood is no marker for "white" people. Far from it. In the data below, the percentage of A in the 'negroid' Nuba EXCEEDS that of all other groups, and the 'negroid' Dinka and Nuer average of A exceeds all but the Nuba. The 'negroid' Flittas of Algeria show type A frequencies exceeding 30%, among the highest in North Africa, again debunking claims that Type A is some sort of "Caucasoid" blood marker.
Paoli's blood an analysis study in 1972 by the way found the ancient Egytians clustered more with the Saharan Black Haratin. As to blood Type B Egyptians show more clustering with other tropical Africans than Europeans or Middle easterners. quote:
Interestingly, Africa in general (independent of any racial categorization) has a higher incidence of group B than Europe or the Middle East. Whether this is the result of intermingling or the original B gene pool is unknown, however it does imply that the links between ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa are deeper and older than generally recognized. " --D'Adamo (2002) "The Complete Blood Type Encyclopedia. pg 14
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As to the dental study above, it has long been debunked as to assorted Aryan claims...
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. � 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc."
^Which debunks your white or "Middle eastern" Egyptian theory, and the presence of numerous dark-skinned Egyptians in place, both ancient and modern is part of that "continuity" despite more significant changes to the population during the New Kingdom era. And since limb proportion studies of Egyptians show them clustering with tropical Africans, if 'Egyptians have always been Egyptians" then they are for the most part tropically adapted Africans, rather than Europeans or "Middle easterners."
The "continuity card" debunks your own theory.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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