posted
For example, modern researchers are confused about how ancients were able to make huge stone blocks with such precision, while able to lift them at great heights when they can weigh anything from 200 tons to 1200 tons, if not more.
Egyptian monuments have been cited as examples, including the Great pyramids. But these researchers are amazed by this, because they say Egyptians didn't have wheels or pulleys, or any "sophisticated" tools. Is it time for researchers to revise this assumption?
Even items relatively as small as pottery dating to 11 and 10 ky ago have been located in Africa. How could they have been without a wheel?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I've heard and read of wheels in African cultures including Kemetian, that were just not used with axles, horse & buggy until the introduction of "the chariot" to the continent.
I've seen pictures infact, but don't have any on me.
It does amaze me though that they aren't sure still how the great pyramid was built. Supposedly also, Egyptians knew quite a bit about physics.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Us moderns are often temporally biased and forget that ancient men/women had the same brain capacity as our selves, they might not have arrive at the answer to a problem using our method,but the important thing is that they arrived with an answer.
Lost methods is really fascinating but one can't get too far in the subject without running into Atlantis or ancient aliens theories..as much as I like taking a look into those subjects myself..
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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In fact, that was one of the reasons I brought it up, i.e. what Brada said about the arrogance of underestimating ancients, and dismissing that which puzzles the human mind, with simplistic "alien" theories.
The attitude so goes; if we moderns can't build it, then the ancients must have been aided by forces outside this world.
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I've heard and read of wheels in African cultures including Kemetian, that were just not used with axles, horse & buggy until the introduction of "the chariot" to the continent.
Care to elaborate on where you heard this, because it must not have come to the attention of those researchers who romanticize that the wheel must have been "invented" in "Mesopotamia", and those who are puzzled by how the Egyptians cut and raised huge blocks of stone, because they swore Egyptians had no wheel, pulley, or the like -- i.e. essentially anything that resembles a wheel.
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With regards to all the extra-huge items found among Ancient ruins perhaps a change of perception is all that is neccessary to solve the mystery.
What if there were humanoid giants roaming the earth at the time? They could have built those monuments.
Posts: 525 | From: Terra | Registered: Oct 2008
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So what is it about evolution that puts the cart before the horse? All evolutionists and paleontologists and archeologists need to do is flat out admit humans have been on this planet probably far, far longer than they have a clue. And that humans possessed at one time technology that's been lost. The evidence is staring them in the face and they can't see it. They look at the huge stones in the pyramids and say ef it. Stuff happens. Case closed. But no, stuff just doesn't happen--unless you belong to those three disciplines mentioned above. Then you're ''safe.''
Leaving aside the extraterrestrial idea the only conclusion to be drawn is the technology existed at one time in the remote past. It's there, it happened. No one knows how.
Evolution posits a time line starting point beginning with A and arriving at Z which is the present. Everything then is laid out nice and respectable except for one thing: those structures around the world shouldn't be there--if the time line is correct. They can't exist. Humans were dumb back then... right? The pyramids should be a project in motion right now--except for one thing: engineers today still can't duplicate the feat, or so I've read. Yet the Egyptians were dumbasses evolutionarily speaking. So how did we, today, get caught up in this same dumbness and can't figure out this stuff?
Whatbox says the Egyptians ''supposedly" had knowledge of physics. Since the pyramids are based on physics and geometry where does the 'supposedly' come in?
Horus, proportionally to humans how big will your giants have to be to lift the stones? You didn't count on that did you.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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There is clear evolution in human social development, as is there biologically. If one goes back into antiquity, humans had no written language. Evidence of this come later. The level of technology we have now, does not go back deep into antiquity.
Technology is in fact developing at a much faster rate now than it had in the past, and the reason is that humans have dramatically built on and preserved preexisting knowledge in written texts. There are more books published in this day and age than they were just over two centuries ago.
The issue is not evolutionary understanding of human biological development, but rather, due to sparsity of written information from antiquity on techniques used in architecture and other things, as well as heavy reliance on machinery to do to labor in this age. As a result, insight into technology used in antiquity is lost to many researchers today, and with the tunnel vision born out of the mind being saturated with procedures and processes used in modern times, people are locked into looking back to past technology only through the prism of our modern ways/terms.
Naturally, the ancients would have used other means to do their constructions, because they would not have had access to all the modern machinery now available to us. By the same token, since modern folks are psychologically locked into doing things with the assistance of machinery these days, they find it difficult to imagine how things were done deep in the past. A lot of people can't even do math on their own these days, without relying on calculators or computers.
If humans had always been technologically advanced from the onset of their appearance, then humans would be even more advanced than they are today.
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Raising huge heavy blocks of stone at great heights to construct monumental items are intriguing, but they are not alone: the monolithic rock-carved architectural innovations (speos) of the so-called "Nubia", and the later examples like the Lalibela rock churches, are fairly impressive as well. Even the Egyptians were so impressed with the innovation, that they borrowed it from the so-called "Nubians". How did they do it, supposedly without complex machinery?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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What about things not made of stone but are non the less intriguing things like the Piris map.
The map was discovered serendipitously on 9 October 1929, through the philological work of the German theologian, Gustav Adolf Deissmann (1866–1937). He had been commissioned by the Turkish Ministry of Education to catalogue the Topkapı Sarayı library's non-Islamic items.[27] At Deissmann's request to search the palace for old maps and charts, the director Halil Edhem (1861–1938) managed to find some disregarded bundles of material, which he handed over to Deissmann. Realizing that the map might be a unique find, Deissmann showed it to the orientalist Paul Kahle who identified it as a map drawn by Piri Reis.[28] The discovery caused an international sensation, as it represented the only then known copy of a world map of Christopher Columbus (1451–1506),[29] and was the only 16th century map that showed South America in its proper longitudinal position in relation to Africa. Geographers had spent several centuries unsuccessfully searching for a "lost map of Columbus" that was supposedly drawn while he was in the West Indies.[13] After reading about the map's discovery in The Illustrated London News, United States Secretary of State Henry L. Stimson contacted the United States Ambassador to Turkey Charles H. Sherrill and requested that an investigation be launched to find the Columbus source map, which he believed may have been in Turkey.[30] In turn, the Turkish government complied with Stimson's request, but they were unsuccessful in locating any of the source maps.[31] The Piri Reis map is currently located in the Library of the Topkapı Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, but is not usually on display to the public.
From what I have read so far hardly anyone believes it's a fake but yet this is one of the things Grumman pointed out some would say Stuff happens. Case closed.
Another thing that Stuff happens. Case closed. is the Dogon cosmology
It should be emphasized that the scientific interpretations we place on various Dogon cosmological symbols are not arbitrary ones. Rather, they are driven by and are consistent with the ways in which the Dogon elders understand and define their own symbols. These interpretations are aided by the definition of cosmological keywords such as po, sene, bummo, yala, tonu, and toymu - and by symbolic keywords such as "Water," "Fire," "Wind," and "Earth." Such words seem to transcend boundaries of culture, and their likely counterparts in the Egyptian hieroglyphic language often confirm the scientific sense of meaning assigned to the words by the Dogon. In the purest cases, these relationships between words are supported by common multiple meanings or by common related symbols-often by the Egyptian glyphs used to write the words, whose shapes match related Dogon cosmological drawings. The coherence of Dogon cosmology is upheld by a sensible, well-defined system of symbolic storylines whose themes directly mirror the best modern scientific theories of how the universe and matter might have actually come to exist.The myths express themselves clearly and succinctly, so much so that the statements of the Dogon priests, are often most easily understood in direct comparison with comparable statements from popular modern interpreters of science - authors of the caliber of Stephen Hawking, Brian Greene, and Richard Feynman. Our understanding of these statements by Dogon priests is guided and supported by important cosmological drawings that often appear in a similar context and take the same form as related scientific diagrams.
posted
Indeed Brada, mystery lies not only around monumental architecture of ancients, but attention was drawn to them here, because most folks tend to sensationalize monumental items before they do smaller ones. Smaller items need not however, be less intriguing. To that end, one may call attention to reported forward seeing Mayan astronomy.
Accordingly, it is said that the Mayans predicted that the earth and sun will one day visually (from an anthropic standpoint) align with the center of our galaxy. Could this be interpreted to say that the Mayans knew about galaxies, black holes, that the earth revolved around the sun (and not the other way around as once thought in Europe) and the solar system, long before physicists of the common era?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Without going the way of an Atlantis theory my belief is that there were relativity advanced societies and that for whatever reasons they may have collapsed and only thin layers of that civilizations remained. take for instance right now on the same continents all over the world we have Jet aged /space aged technologies along with societies many of us would judge as primitive, while knowing of us still shun us and stick to their very very old ways, if a global social/economic/non toxic environmental collapse happens today those so called primitives would be best able to survive they may not even be affected by it at all while us sophisticates wither and die, they may remember us but how we did things would have been lost forever.
I do not know if they knew what a black hole is but they did know that the Earth revolved around the Sun and the could predict eclipse.however as with all human societies they used that knowledge for population manipulation.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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So, what's your ultimate conclusion to such a scenario: that humans have been around longer than paleontological evidence suggests, and that the only reason humans are not more advanced than they are today, is because of "resetting" events, like you are describing above?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I do not know if they knew what a black hole is but they did know that the Earth revolved around the Sun and the could predict eclipse.however as with all human societies they used that knowledge for population manipulation.
What could they possibly thought of as the center of the galaxy, assuming they even had a clue as to what a galaxy is, if not a gigantic black hole?
On the whole earth revolving around the sun thing, it looks like they were smarter than the more recent Europeans of the medieval era, before their so-called "enlightenment". LOL
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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No the record as we have it seems OK as per our biological evolution it's the possibility to move our technologies faster than we thought we did, and again it needn't be that everyone reached the same point at the same time back in the distant pass..Remember a lot of Africans skipped the Bronze age entirely and go straight to the Iron age from the stone age.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:On the whole earth revolving around the sun thing, it looks like they were smarter than the more recent Europeans of the medieval era, before their so-called "enlightenment"
Their Calender is supposed to be more accurate than the one we use today,or maybe we are just catching up if you can believe that.lol
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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I agree with the uneven pace of technological breakthroughs between societies, past and present, as provided in your example. The sticking point for me here, is that if humans anywhere had at some point surpassed technological levels of present times, wouldn't one expect such societies to have attained even more extensive book/record keeping than our current levels. And if so, wouldn't one expect to find remnants of this here and there already. It is hard to imagine any book printing more extensive than present levels could all just vanish like that, without a single trace, don't you think?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I donno without going into the really weird stuff some are making claims that such repositories of knowledge do exist and the reason for secret societies in search of them, but a lid is being kept on it, one being the front paw the Sphinx and another in some cave in an Ecuadorian Jungle, will post more some of that later.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Interestingly enough, ants as minuscule creatures are intriguing, in how they are able to carry load heavier than themselves many times over. It would be the equivalent of a single human carrying one of those gigantic blocks of stones (or even larger) talked about earlier.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I donno without going into the really weird stuff some are making claims that such repositories of knowledge do exist and the reason for secret societies in search of them, but a lid is being kept on it, one being the front paw the Sphinx and another in some cave in an Ecuadorian Jungle, will post more some of that later.
I await them. It's generally safe to make sure these rumors are grounded in material evidence, imo. Objectively speaking, the archaeological signals of human technological sophistication are fairly modest in stratigraphical layers dating prior to the upper-Paleolithic. Only in the mid to late early Holocene do we start to see signs of dramatic expansions of complex technology.
Even so, there exists tendency today to underestimate people of antiquity. There are signs that even the technological sophistry of the Homo Erectus have not been appreciated as they ought to be. It turns out that they had small villages and led sedentary lifestyles long before modern human even existed! The conventional wisdom in the scientific community is to credit modern humans for such innovations.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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channels as far as the Republic of Ecuador and posterity Toyos Cave.
A gigantic system of tunnels, thousands of miles in length and built by unknown constructors at some unknown date, lies hidden deep below the South American continent. Hundreds of miles of underground passages have already been explored and measured in Ecuador and Pent. That is only a beginning, yet the world knows nothing about it.
On July 21, 1969, Juan Moricz, an Argentine subject, deposited a legal title-deed (Fig. 1) signed by several witnesses with Dr. Gustavo Falconi, a notary in Guayaquil. The deed sets out Moricz’s claim to be the discoverer of the tuare concerned. I had this document, which was written in Spanish, translated by a UN interpreter.
I quote the most important parts of it at the beginning of this incredible story of mine: “Juan Moricz, Argentine citizen by naturalization, born in Hungary, Passport No. 4361689 ...
“I have discovered objects of great cultural and historical value to mankind in the Province of Morona- Santiago, within the boundaries of the Republic of Ecuador.
Fig. 1. With the issue of this notarial title-deed on July 21. 1969, the caves beneath Ecuador became the property of Juan Moricz. Moricz put them under state control which will smooth the way for future research.
“The objects consist mainly of metal plaques inscribed with what is probably a resume of the history of a lost civilization, the very existence of which was unsuspected by mankind hitherto. The objects are distributed among various caves and are of many different kinds. I was able to make my discovery in fortunate circumstances ... In my capacity as a scholar, I was carrying out research into the folklore and the ethnological and linguistic aspects of Ecuadorian tribes ...
“The objects I found are of the following kinds: 1. Stone and metal objects of different sizes and colors. 2. Metal plaques (leaves) engraved with signs and writing. These form a veritable metal library which might contain a synopsis of the history of humanity, as well as an account of the origin of mankind on earth and information about a vanished civilization.
“The fact of my discovery has made me the legal owner of the metal plaques and other objects in accordance with Article 665 of the Civil Code.
“However, as I am convinced that the objects, which were not found on my own land, are of incalculable cultural value, I refer to Article 666, according to which the treasure I discovered remains my personal property, but subject to State control.
“I beg you, most excellent President of the Republic, to appoint a scientific commission to verify the contents of this document and assess the value of the finds ...
“I am prepared to show such a commission the exact geographical position and site of the entrance, as well as the objects I have discovered so far...” Moricz stumbled on the underground passages in June, 1965, during his research work, in which he was ably assisted by Peruvian Indians who acted as skillful intermediaries between him and their tricky fellow tribesmen. Being cautious by nature and skeptical as befitting a scholar, he kept silent for three years. Not until he had covered many miles of underground passages and found all kinds of remarkable objects did he ask President Velasco Ibarra for an audience in the spring of 1968. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/gold_gods/gold_gods01.htmPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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The Explorer: ''And if so, wouldn't one expect to find remnants of this here and there already. It is hard to imagine any book printing more extensive than present levels could all just vanish like that, without a single trace, don't you think?''
So what do you think the Egyptians did with the knowledge to build the pyramids? Shouldn't there be *some* evidence other than whose name is inscribed on it?
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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What was the outcome of the call for scientific inquiry by a private citizen who says he stumbled on the finds.
Grums,
The Ancient Egyptians didn't reach a technological level that surpasses the present level, unless I'm missing something, in which case, you'll bring it to my attention. Yet, the Egyptians had writing systems, and therefore, should have been able to make written records about each and every aspect of their technological achievements. Maybe they did, and not found, and maybe they didn't for some unknown reason.
Even today, there are certain technology that States prefer to keep onto themselves and don't make widely known. Maybe the AE had their own reasons for not sharing details about some of their technological knowledge.
I'd imagine that if humans had reached technological levels that surpassed the current state, then printing literature would have gone global then as well, and perhaps far more extensive than what we experience today. Ancient Egypt is only one complex, and so, it is not surprising that some of their achievements may still be covered without detection, but I can't imagine how human technological development that outstrips the present state, would not have achieved global proportions as that we experience today, and yet, still leave virtually no trace of it, given how extensive it would have had to have been. Can you? If so, fill us on how.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Five thousand years from now humanity will be able to look back and see the clear evidence of who built the Trade Center in New York. Not only that they will know how it was done, what materials were used, how many pounds of welding wire was consumed, what the alloy or steel content was considering there may be dissimilar metals to be joined together; which supporting structure called for special load-bearing ratios and on and on. Not so the Egyptians.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Explorer, apparently he died before making an extensive expedition, and this guy Stan Hall also died before he could lead an expedition,thus the secret to the stays lost..and the Indians won't tell all in all though the story seems too Indiana Jonesy
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Sunken city echoes 'Atlantis' Fri, Aug 24 2007 By Takanori Isshiki TOKYO | Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:14am EDT (Reuters Life!) - A researcher investigating underwater rock formations off the coast of Japan believes they are the remnants of an Asian equivalent of Atlantis -- an ancient civilization swallowed up by the ocean.
Marine geologist Masaaki Kimura says he has identified the ruins of a city off the coast of Yonaguni Island on the southwestern tip of Japan.
He has worked for decades to prove the rocks found by scuba diving tourists in 1985 are from an ancient city, which he says may have sparked the fable of Mu -- a Pacific equivalent of the tale of the lost city of Atlantis.
"Judging by the design and the disposition of the ruins, the city must have looked just like an ancient Roman city," said Kimura, a professor at Ryukyu University and the chairman of the non-profit Marine Science and Culture Heritage Research Association.
"I can envisage a triumphal arch-like statue stood on the left side of the Colosseum and a shrine over the hill," he told Reuters Television.
Some of the initial divers notices the rocks were unnaturally smooth and formed a sort of staircase near the island's shores. Subsequent dives by Kimura revealed irregular rock outcrops over 1 square km (0.4 square mile) and mounds of rubble.
Kimura says he believes the city had a castle, a shrine, an arch, statues and a colosseum.
"In my estimation, the castle was situated right in the middle of the city. And though not as big as the castle, a lot of ruins of shrine-like structures too have been discovered," he said at his research room.
Kimura believes the city was sunk in an earthquake 3,000 years ago.
However, many scientists dispute his claim, saying the ruins can be accounted for by natural phenomena such as tidal and volcanic activity. They also say that very few artifacts such as clay pots or weapons have been found to prove humans lived among the rock formation at all.
Kimura, however, remains convinced.
"I am getting close to a conviction that this is a mysterious civilization lost in a tectonic deformation in the Pacific ocean," he said.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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However, many scientists dispute his claim, saying the ruins can be accounted for by natural phenomena such as tidal and volcanic activity. They also say that very few artifacts such as clay pots or weapons have been found to prove humans lived among the rock formation at all.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Well what do you know, look at those interesting patterns and ''collars'' on the big underwater block--all brought about by tidal action and volcanoes. I knew it was that all along. I have the proof but I ain't talkin'. Case closed. Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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I was referring to his call for the government to intervene. Did the word even reach said government; if so, did they bother to respond?
As for Grums,
I've come to understand that no matter how simple a point, you are always the last to get it.
There is a difference between unraveling the mystery of some structure (already accessible to us) or another in one defunct civilization and assessing the scope of human technological state in general for an era.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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However, many scientists dispute his claim, saying the ruins can be accounted for by natural phenomena such as tidal and volcanic activity. They also say that very few artifacts such as clay pots or weapons have been found to prove humans lived among the rock formation at all.
I'm guessing what Kimura calls a castle does not strike the "many scientists" as such, or are they not disputing that element of Kimura's finds. Any images on this?
quote:Kimura, however, remains convinced.
"I am getting close to a conviction that this is a mysterious civilization lost in a tectonic deformation in the Pacific ocean," he said.
Well, it takes a lot to convince a skeptical scientific community. Generally speaking, the evidence has to be damning that it would be hard to ignore. But with determination, who knows, that "smoking gun" may just show up. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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[b]''Well, it takes a lot to convince a skeptical scientific community.''
Actually no. Just those who bypass the scientific method called investigation an wherever it may turn up. Some of those scientists are sceptical because they ain't ready.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Element nice link a man by himself raising two tone blocks no exotic technologies not even a wheel, just the will to get it done.
Explorer I can find no recent activity about the Ecuadorian Government response but apparently they were planning an expedition when but the Peruvians bombed one of their bases and the expedition didn't take place.
The story centred around Janos "Juan" Moricz, an aristocratic Argentinian-Hungarian entrepreneur who claimed that he had discovered a series of tunnels in Ecuador that contained a "Metal Library". In a signed affidavit dated 8 July 1969, he spoke about his meeting with the Ecuadorian president, where he received a concession that allowed him total control over this discovery—provided he could produce photographic evidence and an independent witness that corroborated the discovery of the underground network. Newspapers reported on the expedition that Moricz had organised.
Expedition plans and setbacks
Jaramillo and Hall wanted to combine forces to see whether the Metal Library could be opened; one knew the location, the other had a proven track record in organising proper expeditions. It would be the "expedition of occupation". First, contact with various ambassadors and politicians was established; then the scientific community was brought in. The plan was for Jaramillo to lead the team to the site, where they would remain for a period of three to four months (during the dry season), cataloguing the contents of the site and guaranteeing that nothing went missing. Everything would remain in situ. A report with recommendations would be the only outcome of this expedition, which would involve UNESCO. But in 1995, Peruvian jets bombed an Ecuadorian military base and the project had its first setback. http://www.philipcoppens.com/metal_libr.html
The face on the side above you can see the engraved headdress and there is a video link right above in it, it shows similar structures but of a waay much later date that was definitely made by the hand of men. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGEpg9V41Qg&feature=related
Oops here^ is the vid
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Those images -- the Japanese project? If so, I can't imagine why they'd be dismissed as the products of tidal and volcanic activity.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Element nice link a man by himself raising two tone blocks no exotic technologies not even a wheel, just the will to get it done.
But he could do better . He should try picking 100 to 200 tons, like the ancients supposedly did (were are to believe, without sophisticated tools, if any at that).
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yeah but what if he had a team or an entire tribe or nation to back him up maybe just maybe!! Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Those images -- the Japanese project? If so, I can't imagine why they'd be dismissed as the products of tidal and volcanic activity.
But that's exactly what they did, because then one would have to explain complex organization in that distant era remember this was to be above ground 18kyrs ago,it would call for a new paradigm shift, for what about other things like agriculture to support such seemingly complex societies that was not on the table just yet.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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If you are talking the alleged ruins near Japan, then from where did you come up with the 18ky age?
Maybe I'm confusing the contents in the images of your last post with elements of that Japanese research, but if it happens to be what I think it is, then those structures, like the ones below, don't strike me as something that can be produced by natural formations:
Or perhaps the other scientists mean something else than I glean from it, when it said:
However, many scientists dispute his claim, saying the ruins can be accounted for by natural phenomena such as tidal and volcanic activity.Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Same complex different angles spread over a wide area
Some have it at 10kys old other like Graham Handcock at 18krys ago .
They are saying that waves shipped away at the rocks/cliff and current shaped the structures as is on the sea floor including holes as these Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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So these guys figure that this represents a "sunken civilization" that was enduring for 7ky or 15 ky respectively, before it sank 3ky ago?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yeah that's sums it up but we should remember that not too long ago we had the amazing discoveries of the 7kyrs old Gobekli Tepe: no arguing about that.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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But what I see here, are slabs of stone with some wall-like surroundings, almost in a grave-yardisque kinda way. Perhaps an analogy can be made to something like the Senegambian stone circles (megaliths) or the British-based stonehenge, in that they may have served to fulfill some spiritual value.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yeah they said the above was used as a temple of sorts, but at the time it got a lot of folks stomped because of it's complexities these were supposed to be cave men or hunter gatherer after all.
and I am dying to have the South African Univerities take at look at the so-called Adams calander for at this moment amatures and theories is having all the say
Supposedly built or raised 70kys ago
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Yeah they said the above was used as a temple of sorts, but at the time it got a lot of folks stomped because of it's complexities these were supposed to be cave men or hunter gatherer after all.
There were agricultural societies (the economy type having spread from the Levant) in the region by the age ascribed to the "temple" in question; you realize that right?
But I want to revisit the matter on the Dogon astronomy. I'm sure you know that some "western" naysayers say it was taught to them by some European, because they cannot get their head around the idea that the Dogon knew about a certain star(s) before their discovery by westerners much later, using scientific instruments.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:There were agricultural societies (the economy type having spread from the Levant) in the region by the age ascribed to the "temple" in question; you realize that right?
Well yes I do, the Natufians but they were being described as early agriculturist right on the edge of hunter gathering,the shock was two fold though for many did not expect that kind of sophistication and the other there were or atlesat some were of apparent African origins.
quote:But I want to revisit the matter on the Dogon astronomy. I'm sure you know that some "western" naysayers say it was taught to them by some European, because they cannot get their head around the idea that the Dogon knew about a certain star(s) before their discovery by westerners much later, using scientific instruments.
That started with Carl Sagan in his very popular science documentary series Cosmos,I was taken aback by that stupid statement for if anything a couple of hundred miles to the north of the Dogon you had the university city of Timbuktu not saying that's where they got their knowledge after-all they tried to stay clear of the Sudanic empires but that would have been at least a reasonable start, One book I had Blacks in Science Ancient and Modern speculated the star gazers of the Dogon had very well trained dark adopted eyes,if so like telescopes they could detect wobbles without actually seeing Sirius B < just my guess but if this guy is right then they could be heirs to much earlier knowledge as posted here. http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=polysci&action=display&thread=896
Of relevance to this post . Cosmic Africa. In a journey that stretched from Namibia to the coastline and steamy jungles of Ghana, across crocodile infested lakes and deserts of Northern Kenya, the cliff-side dwellings of the Dogon in Mali and on to the mysterious archaeological sites of the Egyptian Sahara, the recently launched film Cosmic Africa explores Africa's ancient astronomy history.
Cosmic Africa , a co-production between Cosmos Studios, Åland Pictures and Anne Rogers is a unique 72 minute feature length documentary film that both explores and sheds new light on traditional African astronomy and in turn global understanding of the world's oldest science. Cosmic Africa is directed and filmed by the multi-award winning duo, Craig and Damon Foster.
In developing the film, the team's celestial quest put them in touch with chiefs, calendar specialists, diviners, healers, storytellers, nomads, shamans, sky lore experts, archaeologists, linguists and anthropologists from six different countries. Nabta Playa
posted
Without the wild speculation of the authors I would say the Dogon probably had the information. I just don't see how they could have manufactured this knowledge out of thin air.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Brada, Are you then revising the "7ky ago" date you associated with the Gobekli Tepe stone structures? because even as far back as 10ky ago, evidence signals that there were agricultural groups in the Levant.
On the Dogon astronomy:
The denial of the Dogon sophistry in Astronomy is nothing more than the usual 'western' propensity for ascribing outside agents to any achievement of antiquity whose conception remains a mystery to 'western' researchers of today and which can only be conceived in modern times with the help of special modern equipment or machinery. The same mentality has been greeted upon the Pyramids (the world's oldest stone superstructure) for example (among many others here), as briefly noted above, wherein from the construction plan right to any accommodating tools that may have been used, remains shrouded in mystery just as it did in the 19th century. The main difference here being, the grand pyramids have not been reproduced by 'westerners' today, while the rediscoveries of Sirius and its companion stars on the other hand, have been made possible with the development of modern instruments. Now of course, in the case of African achievements, mystery need not be required to drive doubt; without it, racist prejudice would have been incentive enough to doubt and dismiss Dogon ingenuity.
For what it's worth, here's my quick take on the matter, as posted on my blog:
As one can see, the news of Dogon astronomy by two "Western" researchers was first followed up with goofy explanations of how they might have attained this, starting with Robert Temple. After all, how could a "primitive" bunch, with no "Western"-verified documentation of special instruments, be able to come to such advance understanding about a certain element of the universe? As the Wikipedia posting notes, not even Griaule or Dieterlen, the news-bearers of the Dogon understanding, were bold enough to openly come to such conclusions, as that of the extraterrestrial education of the Dogon. Walter van Beek on the other hand pays some community of Dogons a visit, presumably for the sole purpose of verifying Griaule's and Dieterlen's news of Dogon Sirius revelations. An interesting feature of van Beek's findings though, is that it seems to suggest that Dogon only learned of the stars from Griaule himself, some 60 years apart the time van Beek made his visit, which would mean and in contradiction to Griaule's and Dieterlen's revelations of Dogon understanding, that Dogon supposedly had no prior knowledge of Sirius or likely, the other celestial bodies. Yet, this was at a time when even "Westerners" could not figure out the "precise cosmological facts" that Griaule had obtained from the Dogons, having made four separate visits to the latter, followed by a decades long annual visit! One would think that for one, if Griaule had made such a scientific breakthrough, that he would be scrambling to get recognition for it himself, and not some unknown "rural" Africans, about whom they held steadfast prejudices in Europe that very few [Europeans] would have been willing to break away from. And then there is the matter of great detail that Griaule notes of local Dogon lexical names for the stars; did Griaule come up with those names and teach the Dogons said lexicon as well? Going by van Beek, one would have to assume so. The van Beek piece noticeably speaks of only Sigu tolo, which according to Griaule's report, identifies Sirius; yet, Griaule's clearly details not one, but multiple different stars by their Dogon names, none of which can be found in the van Beek piece. These are namely Sigu tolo [Sirius], and its two companions stars: Po tolo [Digitaria star] and Emmę ya tolo [the female Sorghum star]. The van Beek piece does not tell the reader what was to made be of these companion stars. Furthermore, van Beek's finding has a curious feature: he tells us that Sigu tolo appeared to have varying identities among the Dogon, and yet, proceeds to tell us that they supposedly claimed to have gotten this information from a single individual, Griaule himself! Conventional wisdom should tell us that if that were so, shouldn't the likelihood of the stories being consistent with one another be just as great. If a single source tells two individuals the same story, should the stories of those two individuals therefore not be expected to be that very same story? At very least, what Griaule's daughter, Genevieve Calame-Griaule, said in response to van Beek's charges is likely what is at work here, that "van Beek did not go "through the appropriate steps for acquiring knowledge."" Griaule's visits to the Dogons was extensive. Was the same true for van Beek? Then there is that issue of trust, in acquiring information from Dogon, that James Clifford makes a note of. Clifford informs us that Griaule was very selective about whom he was acquiring information from, perhaps just as careful as the Dogons were likely to be, in sharing their secrets to outsiders; to repeat: Griaule sought informants best qualified to speak of traditional lore, and deeply mistrusted converts to Christianity, Islam, or people with too much contact with whites. In closing this case study, we are also informed that as superb and as advanced as the Dogon astronomical observations were, they still had a few shortcomings worth pointing out; to reiterate info already cited above, according to James Oberg, whom while not going as far as Temple with the "extraterrestrial" thing, explains off the Dogon intellectual ingenuity as information supposedly "generously" donated by "Western explorers, travelers and missionaries as well as members of the French Army", the number of moons that the Dogons associated with Jupiter were off or erroneous, and so was their estimation of the distance of Saturn from the sun and its description as the lone planet with rings. The funny thing though about James Oberg's explaining away off Dogon knowledge, is that it comes back to full circle with the fact that this was information that the general European public was supposed to have been ignorant of at the time of Griaule's visit; so, how can the ordinary European public [as explorers, missioners or foot-soldiers], whom one would expect to have been in an even worse off intellectual position than European professional astronomers, be expected to teach the Dogon something that they themselves were clueless of? In the end, what does all this tell us? The commotion following Griaule and Dieterlein's reports about Dogon knowledge simply highlights the rigidly held prejudices that Europeans have had about these Africans. "Primitive" people are not supposed to outdo the "advanced" Europeans, or beat them to something as complex as the astronomical specifics described here. The commotion and the conflicting rationalizations of how the Dogon could have attained this impressive knowledge goes to show that European folks have not been able to shake off these long held prejudices. The "anomalous" Dogon intuition simply upsets these prejudices and European-created sense of "racial" stratigraphy.
Then there is another ideological element which sought to answer the Dogon question, as we shall see with other such examples pertaining to Malians, by placing their origins in the Nile Valley, in historic times. All of these rationalizations wittingly or unwittingly converge on a common theme: that "true" western Africans are simply incapable of intellectual creativeness by themselves. It has to be taught to them, or people simply invaded the region en mass with said creativeness.-
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Farming 10kyrs ago yes as a matter of facts the Natufians were supposed to be the first Farmers in that area but they were also associated with hunter/gathering so maybe they did both.
The Natufian culture is the name given to the sedentary hunter-gatherers living in the Levant region of the near east between about 12,500 and 10,200 years ago. They were hunter-gatherers, foraging for food such as emmer wheat, barley and almonds, and hunting gazelle, deer, cattle, horse, and wild boar.
Natufian Communities
For at least part of the year, Natufian people lived in communities, some quite large, of semi-subterranean houses. http://archaeology.about.com/od/nterms/qt/natufian.htm larger article also suggest they were experimenting with Emmer wheat and other grasses,so yes they had farming.
About the Dogon priest and other African priest in general a lot of times Europeans and others expect to just walk up to an elder and demand access to their most secret/sacred knowledge just by being a European a thing no ordinary run of the mill African can do without going through their educational system,this remind me of Pythagoras and the tremendous difficulties he had gaining access to Kemetic educational system only letters of introduction given by Pharaoh Amasis to the priest allowed him access and he still had got the runaround. Amasis King of Egypt, that Polycrates gave Pythagoras letters of introduction to the King, who secured for him an introduction to the Priests; first to the Priest of Heliopolis, then to the Priest of Memphis, and lastly to the Priests of Thebes, to each of whom Pythagoras gave a silver goblet. http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/stle/stle08.htm
Also ^ from the book Black Spark White Fire.
Not only that but African priest would have been wary of imparting secret/scared knowledge to the whim Europeans especially after the era of colonization when they are known for their hubris and arrogance in the extreme, I also saw a documentary where certain families hid their books in the desert to keep it out of the reach of Europeans,something they were just now began to dig up in some cases after a century or more, this off course was in Mali.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I am fairly acquainted with the Natufians. I was referring to the discordance between your earlier ascribed date of 7ky ago to the Gobekli Tepe and the proposition that the builders thereof, were necessarily hunter-gatherers (not to say, that hunter-gatherers are incapable of building something to that effect). As you've acknowledged yourself, agricultural practitioners were in the general area by 10ky ago.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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