posted
I've seen threads lingering but I've forgotten where much of the info I found here is. Was Greece populated by blacks to a significant degree? Do you think black culture had an impact on Greece?
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posted
^ Blacks were slaves in ancient greece, nothing more. There were though probably quite a lot of them. Greece had a high population of slaves.
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[Someone wrote]Blacks were slaves in ancient greece, nothing more. There were though probably quite a lot of them. Greece had a high population of slaves.
[Marc writes] There may have been black slaves but the ancient Greeks (column 4) were black. And in the ancient world, so too were the other ancients [B] referred to. Again, the ancient Greeks were black.
Some certain individual is petrified with fear as he is frightened by blacks who are proud of their heritage.
His own feeling of worth and value stems from the lie that whites forged the world's civilizations and it sickens him to his stomach to countenance otherwise.
This is why he is an intransigent chump and why he makes up facts to try to convince us that what we know is true is false. He feels inferior and lives frightened in a deluded world of make-believe and falsity – that not even he believes is really true.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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Oshun. You write, Was Greece populated by blacks to a significant degree? Do you think black culture had an impact on Greece?
To answer you directly, yes, and at a time, ancient Greece was all black. This was before the incursion of whites from northern lands (mostly since the 5th century AD) to western and southern lands as the map shows:
You ask if black culture had an impact on Greece. My answer is that (again) blacks "were" ancient Greeks and as Greeks were the contributors that we marvel at today. As, for instance, Socrates himself.
Socrates pointedly describes himself as differing in physiognomy from Critobulus (read essay below) by having a "snub" nose and "thick" lips: in other words, African / black / Negro.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Blacks were slaves in ancient greece, nothing more. There were though probably quite a lot of them. Greece had a high population of slaves.
Most of their slaves came from eastern and central Europe. Blacks in Greece were far from de facto slaves. Many were merchants and mercenaries from Egypt, Meroe and Libya.
And Marc Washington, would you please stop posting those ridiculous pictures.
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Note how Marc only uses selective sources for distortion.
He quotes from ancient sources which descibe Socrates as wide nosed.
He doesn't quote the following though...
Aristophanes, Clouds 102-104:
''Bah! They are rogues; I know them. You mean the quacks, the white-faced wretches, the bare-footed fellows, of whose numbers are the miserable Socrates and Chaerephon.''
Socrates according to Aristophanes had white (leukos) skin.
Are Negroids now white skinned? Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by HERU: Blacks in Greece were far from de facto slaves. Many were merchants and mercenaries from Egypt, Meroe and Libya.
Evidence?
Some black slaves were given more prominent roles, but they still had masters and were slaves. Memnon a slave of herodes atticus for example became a pupil of sophism. Here is his bust -
The fact is though the blacks in greece only arrived there as slaves and remained as slaves, just a few recieved better privalages but they still had masters or were owned. They were never the indigenous population.
The earliest black slaves arrived probably around 400 BC.
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Oshun - When considering the value of this translation of The Clouds by Aristophanes [circa 420 BC]. You should remember that all literate Greeks were likely Black, and all modern Albinos like cassiterides are degenerate liars. You will note that this translation makes no sense.
This web edition published by eBooks@Adelaide. The text appears to be derived from the edition published in 1912 for the Athenian Society, by an anonymous translator.
Phidippides:
Yes, father. But what are you driving at?
Strepsiades:
That is the Thoughtery of wise souls. There they prove that we are coals enclosed on all sides under a vast snuffer, which is the sky. If well paid, these men also teach one how to gain law-suits, whether they be just or not.
Phidippides:
What do they call themselves?
Strepsiades:
I do not know exactly, but they are deep thinkers and most admirable people.
Phidippides:
Bah! the wretches! I know them; you mean those quacks with pale faces, those barefoot fellows, such as that miserable Socrates and Chaerephon?
Strepsiades:
Silence! say nothing foolish! If you desire your father not to die of hunger, join their company and let your horses go.
Phidippides:
No, by Bacchus! even though you gave me the pheasants that Leogoras raises.
Strepsiades:
Oh! my beloved son, I beseech you, go and follow their teachings.
Phidippides:
And what is it I should learn?
Strepsiades:
It seems they have two courses of reasoning, the true and the false, and that, thanks to the false, the worst law-suits can be gained. If then you learn this science, which is false, I shall not have to pay an obolus of all the debts I have contracted on your account.
Phidippides:
No, I will not do it. I should no longer dare to look at our gallant horsemen, when I had so ruined my tan.
posted
I was actually hoping if people had anything in terms of studies towards the first Greeks, especially during the developing periods of Greek civilization if possible.
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Sunburn? Tan lines? Oh and before it's asked if black people get those? Well, yes. Perhaps not really the darkest of blacks but many of the shades that encompass blacks can actually tan or experience sunburns.
quote: Strepsiades:
That is the Thoughtery of wise souls. There they prove that we are coals enclosed on all sides under a vast snuffer, which is the sky. If well paid, these men also teach one how to gain law-suits, whether they be just or not.
This sounds like an analogy, but not to complexion. You can elaborate if you want though. Keep in mind, I really want to see some actual studies on blacks in Greece if possible.
quote: Bah! the wretches! I know them; you mean those quacks with pale faces, those barefoot fellows, such as that miserable Socrates and Chaerephon?
Reference to pale face doesn't have to mean white either. It could mean not going outside a whole lot. It is for instance mentioned that they are deep thinkers, to which one would probably not associate as much with tanning or going outdoors. Mentioning the skin as pallid could have symbolic significance although the burden of proof would be on anyone claiming that route. I'm not familiar with this text, but it's an observation I considered when reading it.
ANYWAY I WOULD REALLY BE HAPPY IF STUDIES WERE AVAILABLE. I would rather not see this entirely based on written word or artistic portrayals. Rather, I'd like to know if actual studies could even be done on old Greeks. I thought there was at least one here like that, dunno where it went.
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Oshun - ANYWAY I WOULD REALLY BE HAPPY IF STUDIES WERE AVAILABLE. I would rather not see this entirely based on written word or artistic portrayals. Rather, I'd like to know if actual studies could even be done on old Greeks. I thought there was at least one here like that, dunno where it went.
I assume you mean DNA studies. You say that as if there is something to be gleaned from such studies.
Okay try this, the major Y-dna haplogroups for Albino Europeans is "R" and "I" with some "E" mixed in. Please read the data for those haplogroups and then tell me what conclusions concerning European Albinos might be gotten from their genetics.
Y-nda haplogroup "R"
In human genetics, haplogroup R is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup very common throughout Europe, Central Asia and South Asia, and also common in parts of the Middle East and Africa. It is a subgroup of haplogroup P and it is defined by the M207 SNP mutation.
Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation." (Black Dravidian Albinos leaving Asia).
Y-haplogroup R is found throughout all continents, but is fairly common throughout Europe, South Asia and Central Asia. In these regions the distribution is markedly different for the two major subclades R1a and R1b.
It is important in Native Americans and it also occurs in Caucasus, Near East, West China, Siberia and some parts of Africa.
Small frequencies are found in Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Korea and Indigenous Australians.
The highest levels of R1a (>50%) are found across the Eurasian Steppe: and South Asia, the highest frequency reaches amongst West Bengal Brahmins (72%), and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, (67%), the Ishkashimi (68%), the Tajik population of Khojant (64%), Kyrgyz (63.5%), Sorbs (63.39%), Poles (56.4%), Ukrainians (50%) and Russians (50%).
R1a has been variously associated with:
the re-colonization of Eurasia during the Late Glacial Maximum. the expansion of the Kurgan people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages.
The Modern studies for R1a1 (M17) suggest that it may have originated in South Asia and have found its way initially from Western India (Gujarat) through Pakistan and Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming to Europe"..."as part of an archaeologically dated Paleolithic movement from east to west 30,000 years ago.
Y-DNA Haplogroup I
Y-DNA Haplogroup I is predominantly a European haplogroup today. It represents nearly one-fifth of the population of Europe. Haplogroup I Y-chromosomes have also been found among some populations of the Near East, the Caucasus, Northeast Africa and Central Siberia. Some speculate the initial dispersion of this population corresponds to the diffusion of the Gravettian culture (the Khoisan Grimaldi). Rootsi and colleagues in 2004 suggested that each of the ancestral populations now dominated by a particular subclade of Haplogroup I experienced an independent population expansion immediately after the last glacial maximum.
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The Black skeletons from Germany below: Results of the DNA tests indicate that in the Nuclear family, the Father was Y-dna R1a, the Mother was MTdna - K
posted
Originally posted by Oshun: I've seen threads lingering but I've forgotten where much of the info I found here is.
We all know that Greeks are primarily Europeans NOT primarily Africans (no credible observer is claiming otherwise) but Greeks do show clear sub-Saharan elements on certain DNA measures, and on several anthro/archaeo measures.
1-- Villena's Greek-Macedonian-African study has nothing to do with the Jew-Palestinian controversy. The study was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Assorted "biodiversity" types try to use that to advance a bogus claim that the Greek data was "withdrawn." Total BS. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations.
3-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
[b]5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, africans again having a wde range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
"L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
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Summary: Again note, contrary to the bogus claims of some, few credible observers are saying that the Greeks are not European. That is not at issue. What is at issue is clear, documented African gene flow into Greece from ancient times. This proven gene flow is demonstrated in multiple lines of evidence- from DNA to anthro, to archaeo scholarship. It does not rely on just one line of evidence, or one scholar. The removal of HLA gene studies for example does little to shake the other substantial lines of evidence. Some attempt to deny the clear scholarship on the issue, but fail miserably.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Cassi, if you're going to provide busts/artifacts/etc please specify the time period by which you're doing this.
quote: We all know that Greeks are primarily Europeans NOT primarily Africans (no credible observer is claiming otherwise) but Greeks do show clear sub-Saharan elements on certain DNA measures, and on several anthro/archaeo measures.
funny, I thought that from Rasol's postings they were mostly Afro Asiatic with less than 50% European ancestry. But yes, if we had to discern which they had most of individually it'd be European. However, I did ask the question of are they "black" which meant, do they have significant African heritage. Going by traditional rules of thumb that would mean do they have 1/4th to 1/8th African ancestry to be exact. I use the traditional rule of thumb for how much African ancestry applies because "black" is a social construct, and today's fluctuations in definition are primarily to subordinate blacks by integrating other groups into whiteness. It's easier in doing so to maintain true negro stereotypes, and to portray blackness as a biological construct that was based on actual biological characteristics. To which I call bullshiit.
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Nice compilation and lead Zarahan. I was trying to get my hands on reserach on the ancient (Neolithic)remains in Greece.
The data will geive a clear indication on who occupied Greece prior to the classical period.
Seems like Angel did a lot of work.
As Malstom et al discovered .. .modern Europeans are NOT descended primarily from the inhabitants of the land prior to the invasion.
He is suggested that the European invasion began about 4000-2000BC.
Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia is a good lead. Ta!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by castrated: Blacks were slaves in ancient greece, nothing more. There were though probably quite a lot of them. Greece had a high population of slaves.
LOL liar, liar, panties on fire! Greece did have a high population of slaves but these were indigenous NOT foreign. Peoples like the Helots of the Peloponnese which were popularly enslaved by the Spartan state were descendants of indigenous peoples conquered by Greek speaking peoples. In fact the Greeks were had the unusual habit of enslaving members of their own kind which is documented in their own writings that every time a Greek city-state is conquered by another Greek city-state, the inhabitants would be enslaved. Blacks at least by Classical times were a rare sight only seen as traders in sea ports and perhaps a few slaves. If black slaves were so common then why was their appearance spoken of as so rare. Even YOUR dumbass acknowledged this in another thread!
quote:castrated posted elswhere: Even as late as Pliny the Elder's day, the ancient greeks were still amazed by the dark skin of the african ethiopian. They couldn't believe it was natural,...
quis enim Aethiopas antequam cerneret credidit?’’
‘‘for who believed in the Ethiopians before seeing them’’ - Natural History, vii. 6
LOL Self-contradiction seems to be the order with you! I don't know why on this thread you all of a sudden make blacks common or significant presence in Greece (as slaves of course). Could this be your explanation for the significant percentage of African E male lineages in Greece? Unfortunately for you, these lineages are dated to the neolithic! LOLPosts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Indigenous Greeks are Caucasoid. What's laughable is that you quote Angel etc, when in reality he identified the earliest crania as Mediterranean with minor Alpine mixture -
Angel (1945) concluded after analysing 13 skulls from the Neolithic that the majority were Gracile and Dinaric-Mediterranean and a minority with ''Alpine tendancies'' - Neolithic Ancestors of the Greeks, Lawrence Angel, American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 49, No. 3, Jul - Sep., 1945, p. 256.
No mention of Negroids, dumbass.
Buxton (1920) similarly concluded that the earliest inhabitants of Greece were also of the Mediterranean race, some having Alpine (brachycephalic) admixture. - The Inhabitants of the Eastern Mediterranean, L. H. Dudley Buxton, Biometrika, Vol. 13, No. 1, Oct., 1920, pp. 92-112.
No mention of Negroids again dumbass.
LOL. Are you going to now claim Mediterranean/Alpine are euphemisms for blacks? Probably next you will be claiming Nordic is a euphemism for negroes as well. Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
^ that's a lie? I don't think anyone was arguing that the Greeks were mostly African or completely African. The question was, are they black? Traditional classifications for being black are about 1/4th -1/8th African descent.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Reading works of Angel, Sergi, Evans etc can be useful. If you ignore their categorization and pseudo-labels, what they observe can be useful and informative. We do understand they are creatures of the times they lived in. . . circa 16th-18th century. Some of us never left that time perod(wink! Wink!).
These psuedo-labels are hilarious. This guy is real comedian. I can't keep up with the -zoids and -nids .
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Traditional classifications for being black are about 1/4th -1/8th African descent.
African does not = Negroid/Black.
Here is a North African Kabyle -
Does this Kabyle child look like a negro to you?
Africa has been occupied by Caucasoids, Negroids & Capoids for thousands of years. Black is therefore not only synonymous with african.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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yay more true negro stereotypes [/sarcasm]. "blackness" is not a look. There are stereotypes for how it looks but its not a look. If it was many mulattoes would've been free whites from the jump. Blackness is a social construct that identifies with African ancestry. It is not biological. Race is not biological. A little black girl who looked like that would be in the fields or in the kitchen cooking for a man who'd often be her rapist. Just like the other slaves. Even quadroons and octaroons in the states who carried a similar phenotype would be understood as black. Now we see inclusions for whiteness simply being allowed on the basis of phenotype to preserve the status quo when that was not how one was formally classified as white or black.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: These psuedo-labels are hilarious. This guy is real comedian. I can't keep up with the -zoids and -nids .
You mean the labels forensic anthropologists, pharmacists, criminal profilers and many other scientists etcetc still use?
Your attempt to portray labels such as Caucasoid or Negroid as ''outdated'' just exposes you as a charlatan.
Forensic anthropologists can identity a skull as Negroid, Caucasoid or Mongoloid with an accuracy of up to 100%.
You deny the science for your own political agenda to deconstruct race. Sad.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: yay more true negro stereotypes [/sarcasm]. "blackness" is not a look. There are stereotypes for how it looks but its not a look. If it was many mulattoes would've been free whites from the jump. Blackness is a social construct that identifies with African ancestry. It is not biological. Race is not biological. A little black girl who looked like that would be in the fields or in the kitchen cooking for a man who'd often be her rapist. Just like the other slaves. Even quadroons and octaroons in the states who carried a similar phenotype would be understood as black. Now we see inclusions for whiteness simply being allowed on the basis of phenotype to preserve the status quo when that was not how one was formally classified as white or black.
See my comment above. You are another race denier loon.
Race is a biological reality. And as i said forensic scientists can identify someone's race by just looking at a skull.
Stop denying the science for your own political agenda.
I have a foundation degree in forensic anthropology. Its not much (i'm still a 21 year old student), but i have worked in a lab and with experts who identify skeletal remains and their racial affinity. In contrast most afronuts here are charlatans/retards or 'internet' scientists. The tripartite racial classification: Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid are still extant and valid. They are scientific and forensic anthropologists can identity a skull as one of these races with an accuracy of 100%. See my thread i linked and learn something for a change.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote: Race is a biological reality. And as i said forensic scientists can identify someone's race by just looking at a skull.
What I find so lulzy is that you have no response to the fact that little girls that looked just like the one above are traditionally classified as black and have a rich historical narrative as such. Racists have employed a true negro stereotype to prolong the lifespan of racism and discard groups of people who'd be traditionally regarded as black. If you were forced to associate the skulls of many quadroons, mulattoes, or octaroons as being black you'd fall to pieces quickly. Forensics is not held accountable in identifying race with traditional classifications of African ancestry. Instead, they start with a false premise of what race is, in searching for phenotypical differences. But even as forensics stereotypes physical features it can still only offer probability of race. Forensics can never offer certainty because people classified as people even within this narrowed realm of defining race can prove to defy stereotypes.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Let me get this straight.. . . . by your definition ?
Caucasians
1. R-M269, R1b1a2
2. Hair Blonde/red-head.
3. blue eyed,
4. Depigmented,
5. With extremely thin lips
6. And aquilne nose
If you answer YES to ALL six questions I concede you are a Caucasoid. Else YOU are not really a Caucasoid.
Conversely
Negroids
1. PN2 lineage 2. Black hair 3. Black eyes 4. Deeply Pigmented 5. Big blubber lips 6. Flat flared nostrils
If you answer yes to all of the above you are a Negro. Else you are NOT a Negro.
I am yes to 1, but NO to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. So I am a NOT a Negro. Now what about you? Are you a true Caucasian.
By your categorization any humans in-between Julliane Moore and Idi Amin is mixed.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Maybe all the black people in this forum can take this quiz to tell if they are Negroes. My guess none if any are Negroes.
And you are NOT a Caucasian C-Ass.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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"CANNIBALISM IN 1920's RUSSIA, CHINA, & SIBERIA. A PHOTO ILLUSTRATION OF A RUSSIAN COUPLE FROM A FACTUAL HISTORY BOOK ON THE TRAGIC TRUE CASES & CAUSES OF CANNIBALISM IN THE 20th CENTURY. :0("
Cannibalistic peasants during the famine in the Volga region, 1921
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Traditional classifications for being black are about 1/4th -1/8th African descent.
what are the traditional percentage requirements for being white?
Native Americans
> 1/4th to 1/16th depending on the state
Black Americans
> usually 1/4th to 1/8th ancestry.
The prevailing attitude was that whiteness was a superior race and mixture with other races would injure the white race. Therefore, a person with any admixture greater than about 1/4th to 1/16th depending on some states would be considered non white. So to reverse that, you had to be 3/4ths to 15/16ths white.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
^ Okay I don't know what the hell cannibalism has anything to do with this topic. The question is were the Greeks black? Of course the answer is NO. But did they have black ancestry? Then the answer is YES as admitted by the Greeks themselves in their own myths via their Argive Cycle as well as all evidence showing neolithic forebears of African ancestry. There is really no denying it.
Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Umm... excuse me but, why am I being associated with Cassi? When have I agreed with him on anything?.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Okay I don't know what the hell cannibalism has anything to do with this topic. The question is were the Greeks black? Of course the answer is NO. But did they have black ancestry? Then the answer is YES as admitted by the Greeks themselves in their own myths via their Argive Cycle as well as all evidence showing neolithic forebears of African ancestry. There is really no denying it.
Again we don't (or at least, I don't) really know whether or not to classify Greeks as black or not because I don't know the degree of admixture present within their ancestry. Like I said before, traditional models for race equate blackness with at least 1/4th to 1/8th African ancestry. I'm not asking if they're fully or majority African. I'm asking if they are black and am using traditional degrees of ancestry 1/4th to 1/8th to ascertain this. Are you saying that Greeks are less than about 1/4th black for example? If not, then I would consider them black and the equivalent of say a quadroon.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
In Latin America anyone not 100% white fell into one of the nearly innumerable casta categories.
In the USA "quadroons" were not considered white at all. White men in Louisiana attended quadroon balls to attain non-white bed warmers they would not marry because they didn't classify them white.
It is true however that "quadroons" and "octroons" in many cases are indistinguishable from women who originate from France and southern Europe.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Oshun [QUOTE] Again we don't (or at least, I don't) really know whether or not to classify Greeks as black or not because I don't know the degree of admixture present within their ancestry. Like I said before, traditional models for race equate blackness with at least 1/4th to 1/8th African ancestry. Are you saying that Greeks are less than about 1/4th black for example? [QUOTE]
Should it matter the % of ancestry "they" at-least the classical Greeks considered themselves non Aethiops(blacks) for the most part,never mind that they carried African ancestry and recognized that fact as DJ pointed out.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Let me get this straight.. . . . by your definition ?
Caucasoid -
Reduced or no prognathism (orthognathic) Leptorrhine (thin) nose Prominent nasal spine Thin nasal bridge + interorbital area Nasal Index: - 48 mm Nasal sill Tear shaped nasal hole(s) Prominent chin Thin lips Larger supraorbital (brow) ridges Microdont (small) teeth Cymotrichous (wavy) hair Pale white - brown pigmentaion (1 - 21 on the Luschan Scale) Full range of hair and eye colours
Negroid -
Extreme facial prognathism Platyrrhine (wide) nose Reduce nasal spine Wide nasal bridge + interorbital area Nasal Index: 53 + mm No Nasal sill Round shaped nasal hole(s) Rounder chin Thick lips Reduced supraorbital (brow) ridges Macrodont (large) teeth Ulotrichous (wooly) hair Dark brown - black pigmentation (22 - 36 on the Luschan Scale) Only dark hair and dark eyes
Difference between my racial classification and yours:
I'm qualified in forensic anthropology and am supporting the standard tripartite racial classification scheme: Caucasoid, Negroid & Mongoloid which is still scientifically valid.
In contrast, yours in just made up with zero scientific basis... Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: what are the traditional percentage requirements for being white?
100%, the same for black.
Most black people however hate their race, which is why they cluster or consider people who are mostly white to be ''black''. An example:
- Vanessa Williams who is White/Native American with African American ancestry.
She isn't black by phenotype.
Marc Washington however claims Vanessa Williams is a ''black woman'' (despite the fact she is partially white/amerindian).
Most blacks hate the negroid phenotype which is why they are obsessed to label african-americans with a large dose of white genes as ''black'' so they can claim white racial traits are their own.
Its very pathetic.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Someone wrote: I'm qualified in forensic anthropology.
[My comment] You call yourself a qualified forensic anthropologist. Zaharan has found you to be otherwise:
Those who would splinter the black / African / Negro into a thousand unrelated groups would, on the otherhand, regard all those with white skin as Caucasoid.
This despite the fact blacks have 20 times more mtDNA lines than whites and hence more pheontypic variety:
Bryan Sykes The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry, W.W. Norton, 2001, reports that Native Europeans have only 7 indigenous mtDNA lines. This compares with over 140 in Africa in mtDNA lines.
Those ancient images seen in the page below are not Mongoloid. They are not white. They are the ancient blacks of Greece who hail from Africa and stand as ancestors to the population of classical Greece through those of today.
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-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Those ancient images seen in the page below are not Mongoloid. They are not white.
All those images, excluding the Pygmy are of Caucasoids.
Thats why you're a joke marc.
You post pictures of white people and then claim they are negroes.
Thread OP was: Were the Greeks Black?
This chump hears, "Were the Greeks Negroids?"
Tell us if the ancient Greeks were black in colour. or if they were pink like you. After that we will discuss whether they were caucasians or not.
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Tell us if the ancient Greeks were black in colour. or if they were pink like you. After that we will discuss whether they were caucasians or not.
The minority elite class (nobility, royalty etc) were predominantly pale white skinned and blonde haired, of the Nordic Caucasoid subrace, because they were of Indo-European extraction. The bulk population of Greece however were brown/olive pigmentated, and brunette haired, of the Mediterranean subrace. Females (of all classes) also tended to be lighter hued because they spent their life indoors.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by castrated: Blacks were slaves in ancient greece, nothing more. There were though probably quite a lot of them. Greece had a high population of slaves.
LOL liar, liar, panties on fire! Greece did have a high population of slaves but these were indigenous NOT foreign. Peoples like the Helots of the Peloponnese which were popularly enslaved by the Spartan state were descendants of indigenous peoples conquered by Greek speaking peoples. In fact the Greeks were had the unusual habit of enslaving members of their own kind which is documented in their own writings that every time a Greek city-state is conquered by another Greek city-state, the inhabitants would be enslaved. Blacks at least by Classical times were a rare sight only seen as traders in sea ports and perhaps a few slaves. If black slaves were so common then why was their appearance spoken of as so rare. Even YOUR dumbass acknowledged this in another thread!
quote:castrated posted elswhere: Even as late as Pliny the Elder's day, the ancient greeks were still amazed by the dark skin of the african ethiopian. They couldn't believe it was natural,...
quis enim Aethiopas antequam cerneret credidit?’’
‘‘for who believed in the Ethiopians before seeing them’’ - Natural History, vii. 6
LOL Self-contradiction seems to be the order with you! I don't know why on this thread you all of a sudden make blacks common or significant presence in Greece (as slaves of course). Could this be your explanation for the significant percentage of African E male lineages in Greece? Unfortunately for you, these lineages are dated to the neolithic! LOL
1-- Villena's Greek-Macedonian-African study has nothing to do with the Jew-Palestinian controversy. The study was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Assorted "biodiversity" types try to use that to advance a bogus claim that the Greek data was "withdrawn." Total BS. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations.
3-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, africans again having a wde range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Again we don't (or at least, I don't) really know whether or not to classify Greeks as black or not because I don't know the degree of admixture present within their ancestry. Like I said before, traditional models for race equate blackness with at least 1/4th to 1/8th African ancestry. Are you saying that Greeks are less than about 1/4th black for example?
Should it matter the % of ancestry "they" at-least the classical Greeks considered themselves non Aethiops(blacks) for the most part,never mind that they carried African ancestry and recognized that fact as DJ pointed out.
It does not matter if they did not see themselves as literally being black. Race in our modern definitions didn't even exist for them to make commentary on. Also, most blacks are not literally black and come in all types of complexions, including the types of complexions we see today in modern Greeks. The idea a member of the black social group must in fact BE pitch black again relies on "true negro" stereotypes. A person's race is not be for them to simply choose either. Race was never something that one chose, it was decided by percentages. While yes, in the modern world, they're trying to change it so that you can decide it, that's not a choice anyone can make.The ones who can "choose" are those who don't look stereotypically black as it serves the "true negro" agenda to allow them, North Africans, and now East Africans the "privileges" in doing so. This sort of nonsense of "self identification" is not something blacks of darker complexions are entitled to because it's not in the interests of Eurocentrics to let darker blacks do it.
Classifying lighter blacks as multi racial allows for marginalization of the black population by placing many into obscure groups as to limit funding or research for the black community as a whole. It also allows whites (with a declining birth rate) to further their numbers. In 2008, 22% of black men married a white woman. I wonder how they will "self identify" and if that will as a result be of much benefit to the black community. Thirdly, "multiracial" terminology furthers racism by suggesting a phenotype is what makes race or being majority white makes one white (when it previously did not). But perhaps one of the worst things about it, is that it also allows them to divide the black community when (like the Hispanic population is now), it was more cohesive and more able to organize.
So Now that they (white racists) are allowing people of lighter skins to "self identify", they're playing the "true negro" game because blacks are allowing them to change the game of the one drop rule when white supremacists are about to get their asses owned (like Cassi here). Black Rights activists knew this would happen and tried very hard to prevent bi-racial or multi-racial classifications. Most blacks in America are mixed race to some degree. But Being of mixed ancestry did not and does not equate being of mixed race and now Eurocentrics are trying to change it so that they can further their agendas for racism. I refuse to subscribe to a "true negro" basis for race. I play the game by the rules set up from the start. It's not my job to pacify butthurt crybabies if they find out their precious 'white' civilizations may be black by their rules. They do not get to change the rules if Greece turns out to be quadroon and they need to get over it.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Some certain individual is petrified with fear as he is frightened by blacks who are proud of their heritage.
His own feeling of worth and value stems from the lie that whites forged the world's civilizations and it sickens him to his stomach to countenance otherwise.
This is why he is an intransigent chump and why he makes up facts to try to convince us that what we know is true is false. He feels inferior and lives frightened in a deluded world of make-believe and falsity – that not even he believes is really true.
With an sense of inferiority that sickens him to his stomach, not only does he claim all white-skinned peoples white but those who are brown-skinned he calls white as well – even those in the ancient Mediterranean who even his white supremacist heroes indicate live in lands they themselves entered at a late date and when they did so did spreading not culture but bloodshed and destruction.
This is the map that shows their bloody entrance to Europe and the Mediterranean. The individual who persists in his ignorance will ignore this so I’ll post more maps of late white migration into Europe and the Mediterranean.
When they entered the Mediterranean they did so as the Dorians who destroyed everything in their path. It took nearly 1000 years for Greece to recover:
Your feature is laughably hardly that of a 21 year-old forensic anthropologist, your main feature is that you are a pathogenic liar.
Read your own words, liar:
Real anthropologists speak of the racial identity of those called the Mediterranean race as belonging to the small black race found from Africa through Europe and the Mediterranean. Britannica writes of this:
Archeological researches in Europe have proved the existence in Europe, from Neolithic times, of a race of small stature, with long oval skulls, <snip> This Neolithic race has been nicknamed the Iberians <snip> … and the racial characteristics of ‘Iberians’ has been identified with the ‘small dark highlander,’ and the Black Celts … Thus a race with fairly uniform characteristics was at one time in possession of the South of France, the whole of Spain from the Pyrenees to the Straights; the Canary Islands; a part of North Africa and Corsica. Whether this type is more conveniently designated by the word ‘Iberian’ or by some other name (‘Eur-African’, ‘Mediterranean’ etc.) is a matter of relative indifference.” Britannica, 1951, Iberian, p. 31A, Vol. 12.
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