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Author Topic: "The Andalusi origins of the Berbers"
Mazigh
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Rouighi, Ramzi (Department of History, University of Southern California, Los Angeles)

Journal of Medieval Iberian Studies, 2: 1, 93 — 108, January (2010)

Abstract

This article uses the difference between the political situation in al-Andalus and the Maghrib in the eighth century to argue for a possible Andalusi origin of a particular use of the category “Berber.” Since before the Arab conquests the sources did not imagine that the “Berbers” inhabited northwest Africa and that today it is common to do so, the article introduces the idea of a Berberization to account for that transformation. It argues that al-Andalus was an important early site of production of a specific notion of what Berber meant and seeks to show categories such as Arab and Berber did not refer to an unchanging objective reality and that they did not always carry the same connotations or support the same understandings. Embracing the limits posed by the historical record, the article participates in the effort of historians to replace ideologically informed convictions with a more nuanced delineation of the boundaries of the knowable.

More...:
http://www.medievalists.net/2012/02/20/the-andalusi-origins-of-the-berbers/

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IronLion
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Welcome back Amazigha!

Prof Winters always taught that the modern Berbers were descendants of Vandals and Germanics...

--------------------
Lionz

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Doug M
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This is pure silliness. Namely, because these people are trying to create a "Berber" identity that has nothing to do with language and culture, which in reality is what the term "Berber" refers to. The fact is that the Berber languages are strongly tied to Africa, specifically East Africa and the Sahara. But because some Europeans want to create a Eurasian origin and identity for "Berber" people, with little or no connection to Africa, they have to play these games of "redefining" what Berber means, which always boils down to making them Eurasian rather than African.
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Tukuler
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People have the right to self-determination.

"Berber" were a people long before Europeans
invented their sciences of anthropology,
linguistics, and ethnology.

In the final analysis "Berbers" are exactly
what "Berbers" choose to identify themselves
as regardless of any so-called scientific
studies or what non-"Berbers" seek to make
of them.

And I say that without any love of those who
call themselves Amazigh activist or any of
the other "Berbers" in all of North or West
Africa who despise non-"Berber" blacks and
deny any shared heritage with the rest of
the people of the continent.

If they want to say they came from Mars
then I say more power to them, and go
back to where ever they claim to come from.

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
This is pure silliness. Namely, because these people are trying to create a "Berber" identity that has nothing to do with language and culture, which in reality is what the term "Berber" refers to. The fact is that the Berber languages are strongly tied to Africa, specifically East Africa and the Sahara. But because some Europeans want to create a Eurasian origin and identity for "Berber" people, with little or no connection to Africa, they have to play these games of "redefining" what Berber means, which always boils down to making them Eurasian rather than African.

Thank you. The people termed Berber were of primarly black African appearance and biological origin i.e. Tuareg, Zaghawa Teda up until 1500 before the turning renegade and absorption of non-Africans.
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
People have the right to self-determination.

"Berber" were a people long before Europeans
invented their sciences of anthropology,
linguistics, and ethnology.

In the final analysis "Berbers" are exactly
what "Berbers" choose to identify themselves
as regardless of any so-called scientific
studies or what non-"Berbers" seek to make
of them.

And I say that without any love of those who
call themselves Amazigh activist or any of
the other "Berbers" in all of North or West
Africa who despise non-"Berber" blacks and
deny any shared heritage with the rest of
the people of the continent.

If they want to say they came from Mars
then I say more power to them, and go
back to where ever they claim to come from.

Unfortunately that will not work very well as the relatives of the Only people who were called Berber before 1500 are now called black Africans i.e. Zaghawa, Teda, Tuareg, Fulani having been pushed further south into the Atlas and Sahel/Sudan.

If people who now speak Berber want to identify themselves with the HERITAGE of the "Berbers" who existed prior to 1500 - who were called Masmuda, Sanhaja, Goddala, Hawara, Amazigh, Lamtuna, Kutama then they should not be trying to disassociate themselves with what the Berbers were and should acknowledge their early biological origins.

Just as a Haitian or Algerian in France would not be denying the European heritage of the French people of 500 years ago just because they speak French. [Smile]


We also have plenty of "white" people in America now called Melungeons trying to make the Melungeons into Turks, Portuguese, Jews and Romani and anything else but the predominantly woolly haired half NEGRO groups they were FIRST DESCRIBED AS.

And of course there are many black people now in the U.S. willing to make most early native Americans into black African looking people for some odd reason so they can be indigenous "Moors" in America. [Roll Eyes]

Identity politics based on nationalism frankly does not go well with preserving or learning historical facts.

If anybody should be claiming there heritage as BERBERS it is the people who still call themselves BERBERS the Teda/Zaghawa/DAZA people!

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Tukuler
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It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

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the lioness,
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The term Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa. The variation is a French one when spelled Berbere and English when spelled Berber. The term appeared first in the 4th century in the religious conflicts between Saint Augustine, a Numidian Berber-Roman bishop of the Catholic faith, and the Donatist allies of the Barbarians, also known as Vandals. The Vandals migrated from Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal) where they were assailed by the Gauls allied to the Romans, and settled west of the Roman city of Carthage (in modern Tunisia) in the highlands (in modern Algeria).The Greek term "βάρβαρος / βάρβαροι" was originally a derogatory term for all non-Greek speakers. The nonsense syllables "bar-bar" have no meaning in Greek; the term implied that all languages other than Greek were a collection of nonsense syllables. The term has been variously translated as "stutterers," "stammerers," or "babblers." But the term did include, from the beginning, a connotation of being non-civilized or "barbaric" that later became primary in cognate terms like "barbarian."
Contrary to some sources, the Berbers/Imazighen (the Berber people) were probably not called barbarians by the Greeks. The Berbers were known as Libyans (Λίβυες or Λίβυοι) or Mazyes (Μάζυες or Μάξυες; Mazaces in Latin) to the ancient Greeks. They were known under many other names to the Romans as Numidians, Mauri and Moors. The Egyptians called their western neighbors the Mashewsh.
Because the Berbers were called Al-Barbar by the Arabs, it is possible that the modern European languages and other ones adopted it from the Arabic language, which in turn possibly adopted it from the Greek language or from Latin. The Arabs probably did not use the name Al-Barbar mainly as a derogatory name, as they possibly borrowed it from other languages. The ancient Arab-Muslim historians were not aware of the origin of that name, they cited some myths or stories about the name. The most notorious myth considers an eponymous Barbar as the ancestor of the Berbers. According to that myth, "the Berbers were the descendants of Barbar, the son of Tamalla, the son of Mazigh, the son of Canaan, the son of Ham, the son of Noah" (Ibn Khaldun, The History of Ibn Khaldun, Chapter 3).The fact that the name Berber is a strange name to the Berbers led to confusion. Some sources claim that the Berbers are several ethnic groups who are not related to each other. That is not accurate, because the Berbers refer to themselves as Imazighen throughout all of North Africa from Morocco to Libya including the Egyptian oasis of Siwa and about half of the Sahara Desert. In addition, genetic studies suggest a strong genetic bond between all the inhabitants of modern-day North Africa west of the Nile river.
The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.Many Berbers call themselves some variant of the word imazighen (singular: Amazigh), possibly meaning "free people" or "free and noble men"[1] (the word has probably an ancient parallel in the Roman name for some of the Berbers, "Mazices").

Some of the best known of the ancient Berbers are the Numidian king Masinissa,
 -


king Jugurtha,
 -


the Berber-Roman author Apuleius
 -

, Saint Augustine of Hippo,
 -


Yusuf ibn Tashfin, king of the Berber Almoravid empire;

Abbas Ibn Firnas,
 -
a prolific inventor and early pioneer in aviation; Ibn Battuta, a medieval explorer who traveled the longest known distances in pre-modern times; and Estevanico, an early explorer of the Americas.

Tariq ibn Ziyad, Berber general who defeated the Visigoths and conquered Hispania in 711.
 -

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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
This is pure silliness. Namely, because these people are trying to create a "Berber" identity that has nothing to do with language and culture, which in reality is what the term "Berber" refers to. The fact is that the Berber languages are strongly tied to Africa, specifically East Africa and the Sahara. But because some Europeans want to create a Eurasian origin and identity for "Berber" people, with little or no connection to Africa, they have to play these games of "redefining" what Berber means, which always boils down to making them Eurasian rather than African.


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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

Fa sho, I'm with Tukuler on this subject.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
People have the right to self-determination.

"Berber" were a people long before Europeans
invented their sciences of anthropology,
linguistics, and ethnology.

In the final analysis "Berbers" are exactly
what "Berbers" choose to identify themselves
as regardless of any so-called scientific
studies or what non-"Berbers" seek to make
of them.

And I say that without any love of those who
call themselves Amazigh activist or any of
the other "Berbers" in all of North or West
Africa who despise non-"Berber" blacks and
deny any shared heritage with the rest of
the people of the continent.

If they want to say they came from Mars
then I say more power to them, and go
back to where ever they claim to come from.

Unfortunately that will not work very well as the relatives of the Only people who were called Berber before 1500 are now called black Africans i.e. Zaghawa, Teda, Tuareg, Fulani having been pushed further south into the Atlas and Sahel/Sudan.
If Berber comes from Greek / Latin, and / or some other European languages, so why care that much when some group that was once pegged with a foreign name is no longer called that name? I could see the need for a little annoyance at their name changing from a speaking-their-language or aware-of-their-terms point of view. I actually see no problem though that these people, the black Africans you mention, which don't get - and aren't as much - attached to the greater Mediterranean or North Mediterranean (Southern Europe), get sort of seperated out of the group of the others, I mean it sort of makes sense if they're not part European, and not as much Eurasian, or anything. It's cool to document and take note of the historical usage though.
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

That didn't make sense. This is not the old al-Takruri. lol!
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

Fa sho, I'm with Tukuler on this subject.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
People have the right to self-determination.

"Berber" were a people long before Europeans
invented their sciences of anthropology,
linguistics, and ethnology.

In the final analysis "Berbers" are exactly
what "Berbers" choose to identify themselves
as regardless of any so-called scientific
studies or what non-"Berbers" seek to make
of them.

And I say that without any love of those who
call themselves Amazigh activist or any of
the other "Berbers" in all of North or West
Africa who despise non-"Berber" blacks and
deny any shared heritage with the rest of
the people of the continent.

If they want to say they came from Mars
then I say more power to them, and go
back to where ever they claim to come from.

Unfortunately that will not work very well as the relatives of the Only people who were called Berber before 1500 are now called black Africans i.e. Zaghawa, Teda, Tuareg, Fulani having been pushed further south into the Atlas and Sahel/Sudan.
If Berber comes from Greek / Latin, and / or some other European languages, so why care that much when some group that was once pegged with a foreign name is no longer called that name? I could see the need for a little annoyance at their name changing from a speaking-their-language or aware-of-their-terms point of view. I actually see no problem though that these people, the black Africans you mention, which don't get - and aren't as much - attached to the greater Mediterranean or North Mediterranean (Southern Europe), get sort of seperated out of the group of the others, I mean it sort of makes sense if they're not part European, and not as much Eurasian, or anything. It's cool to document and take note of the historical usage though.

I don't know where modern Berber dialects come from. From what I understand the dialects are incomprehensible amongst those speaking them to each other, and I'm not surprised, but the early Berber and Tuareg dialects to which they were once closely connected could hardly have been Vandal or Germanic although modern Berbers may have a lot of that group in them and in their dialect as Diop had suspected.

No real scholar believes that modern Berber is Indo-European. The real Berber was and is recognized as Afro-Asiatic. They live mainly in the Saharan oases Ghadames, Siwa, Fezzan, Tougourt Wargla, Ghardaia, and the mountains of the Upper Atlas, the Adrar, Jebel Nafusa, Wedh Righ, the Dra'a etc. These people are related to a whole host of West African people. They are descendants of the early Berbers that have been less affected by admixture with Levantine and European populations. If their heritage is written out of existence there also goes much of Sahelian and West African heritage and cultural history and we are back to the drawing board of whites who founded Sudanic Sahelian, and Saharan civilization.

There is always a problem becomes when one group of unrelated or mixed origin starts to claim the history and heritage of another group no matter where they may have relocated.

It would never be acceptable for Dutch people in South Africa to call themselves Bantu. Now comparably recent descendants of Europeans both biologically and even culturally are calling themselves more Berber than purer ones and calling the last remaining descendants of those groups which have never stopped calling themselves "Berber" the "abid".

But - OK if such people are allowed to claim they are descendants of the Berbers while claiming they never used the word Berber while the still black Zaghawa-related people who use to occupy their territory are called "abid", than I guess black nationalists should be able to claim King James and the Vikings as black as they are now starting to do. So be it. Anything goes when historically documented fact isn't important and just "a lie". [Wink]

And most importantly we might as well make Egypt part of the European cultural heritage again after all its part of world heritage. The idea that it is black African is just a big black lie I guess, because like LYING_SS has so artfully shown black Africans with dark brown skin and kinky hair really aren't black now are they!


Heck for all I know most of those Moors wearing crowns, bands and carrying lamps up in Europe were depictions of slaves. [Big Grin]

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
The term Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa. The variation is a French one when spelled Berbere and English when spelled Berber. The term appeared first in the 4th century in the religious conflicts between Saint Augustine, a Numidian Berber-Roman bishop of the Catholic faith, and the Donatist allies of the Barbarians, also known as Vandals. The Vandals migrated from Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal) where they were assailed by the Gauls allied to the Romans, and settled west of the Roman city of Carthage (in modern Tunisia) in the highlands (in modern Algeria).The Greek term "βάρβαρος / βάρβαροι" was originally a derogatory term for all non-Greek speakers. The nonsense syllables "bar-bar" have no meaning in Greek; the term implied that all languages other than Greek were a collection of nonsense syllables. The term has been variously translated as "stutterers," "stammerers," or "babblers." But the term did include, from the beginning, a connotation of being non-civilized or "barbaric" that later became primary in cognate terms like "barbarian."
Contrary to some sources, the Berbers/Imazighen (the Berber people) were probably not called barbarians by the Greeks. The Berbers were known as Libyans (Λίβυες or Λίβυοι) or Mazyes (Μάζυες or Μάξυες; Mazaces in Latin) to the ancient Greeks. They were known under many other names to the Romans as Numidians, Mauri and Moors. The Egyptians called their western neighbors the Mashewsh.
Because the Berbers were called Al-Barbar by the Arabs, it is possible that the modern European languages and other ones adopted it from the Arabic language, which in turn possibly adopted it from the Greek language or from Latin. The Arabs probably did not use the name Al-Barbar mainly as a derogatory name, as they possibly borrowed it from other languages. The ancient Arab-Muslim historians were not aware of the origin of that name, they cited some myths or stories about the name. The most notorious myth considers an eponymous Barbar as the ancestor of the Berbers. According to that myth, "the Berbers were the descendants of Barbar, the son of Tamalla, the son of Mazigh, the son of Canaan, the son of Ham, the son of Noah" (Ibn Khaldun, The History of Ibn Khaldun, Chapter 3).The fact that the name Berber is a strange name to the Berbers led to confusion. Some sources claim that the Berbers are several ethnic groups who are not related to each other. That is not accurate, because the Berbers refer to themselves as Imazighen throughout all of North Africa from Morocco to Libya including the Egyptian oasis of Siwa and about half of the Sahara Desert. In addition, genetic studies suggest a strong genetic bond between all the inhabitants of modern-day North Africa west of the Nile river.
The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.Many Berbers call themselves some variant of the word imazighen (singular: Amazigh), possibly meaning "free people" or "free and noble men"[1] (the word has probably an ancient parallel in the Roman name for some of the Berbers, "Mazices").

Some of the best known of the ancient Berbers are the Numidian king Masinissa,
 -


king Jugurtha,
 -


the Berber-Roman author Apuleius
 -

, Saint Augustine of Hippo,
 -


Yusuf ibn Tashfin, king of the Berber Almoravid empire;

Abbas Ibn Firnas,
 -
a prolific inventor and early pioneer in aviation; Ibn Battuta, a medieval explorer who traveled the longest known distances in pre-modern times; and Estevanico, an early explorer of the Americas.

Tariq ibn Ziyad, Berber general who defeated the Visigoths and conquered Hispania in 711.
 -

Dear authoress of confusion - the term "Berberi" is an African word first used by Europeans is in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea for certain peoples of the region of Somalia. It has nothing to do with the term Barbarian meaning to speak an unintelligeably (something you are quite good at) or to babble.

It is also used for the amended form of Mauri Bavares a black people once living in the Atlas who appear to have been according to some scholarship the Bafour a group of the Znaga. "Barbares is a variant form of the name Bavares, a people of Mauretania Tingitana and/or Caesarensis, who possibly appear also under the name Babari. Note the association of Barbares with Mauretania in the Laterculus Veronensis "

See “Rabbinic Knowledge of black Africa" David Goldenberg

The word "Amazigh" is the indigenous name of the Shluh Berbers and Imoshagh or Tuareg that was recently adopted by peoples along the coast who presently speak Berber, but dress Balkan and look Slavic, Turkish and German as many of their ancestors.

The name Zaghawa Zawagha or Zauge today is given to the people of Central Chad, Niger, southern Libya and Sudan who call themselves “Beri” and “Beriberi” and their language Beri or Barituki (Hopkins and Levtzion, Corpus of Arabic Sources on African History p. 203).

According to scholars, the name Barbara and al-Barabir was attached to the Djanawa or Soninke (Wangara/Wakore) of Dar Tichitt in early Arab sources and Portuguese chronicles (See Lewicki, 1988, The role of the Sahara and the Saharians in relationships between north and south. In Muḥammad Fāsī & Ivan Hrbek (Eds.). Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, (p.313) UNESCO.

When one is talking of the history of the Berbers, Barabari, al-Barabir, Bavares, or "Babors" one is talking of "black African" populations who as the Byzantines said Mauri Bavares and Mauri Baqautes who lived in "mud huts" and wore rings in their ears and bands around their heads just as they appeared in Europe not much later.

Believe it!

Anyone familiar with the colonial documents knows that Amazigh is a recently nationalist designation. [Wink]

BTW - I am not visiting Sweden ever. Even though in a hapmap dna analysis my European ancestors appear to have had some links there. [Big Grin]

There are so many pictures of Ibn Battuta and Tarik that I can picture spam and, except for the Roman coins you keeep posting, none of them look alike. Believe it!

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
TThe most notorious myth considers an eponymous Barbar as the ancestor of the Berbers. According to that myth, "the Berbers were the descendants of Barbar, the son of Tamalla, the son of Mazigh, the son of Canaan, the son of Ham, the son of Noah" (Ibn Khaldun, The History of Ibn Khaldun, Chapter 3)
[

You forgot this part by Ibn Khaldun the Andalusian descended Muslim in Tunisia -

"Ham, HAVING BECOME BLACK because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], ONE OF HIS DESCENDANTS, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib”). “What happened to the ancient Libyans? Chasing sources
across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun,” Journal of World History 14:4, 459–500.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:

 -
a prolific inventor and early pioneer in aviation; Ibn Battuta, a medieval explorer who traveled the longest known distances in pre-modern times; and Estevanico, an early explorer of the Americas.

Tariq ibn Ziyad, Berber general who defeated the Visigoths and conquered Hispania in 711.
 -

Well I guess we all know where the French got their moustaches from. That one on Ibn Batutta is just so chic. Is he wearing lipstick too I wonder?

And I wonder where Tariq's painting was made and when since it was against Islamic religion to create the human form. When you get a chance let us know.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]
 -
a prolific inventor and early pioneer in aviation; Ibn Battuta, a medieval explorer who traveled the longest known distances in pre-modern times; and Estevanico, an early explorer of the Americas.


Here is another nice depiction of Ibn Battuta in the Turkoman or Central Asian style so familiar to all of us thanks to LYING_ss picture spamming.

 -

I don't think it looks anymore Moroccan Berber of the 14th century than the above EuroMediterranean looking one.

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dana marniche
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What happened to Yusuf ibn Tachfin's picture Lyin_ss. You have his name there. Did you forget to take it off?

--------------------
D. Reynolds-Marniche

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dana marniche
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Don't worry I got one for you. I'm sure you'll like it.

Ta dah!

 -
Yusuf ibn Tachfin - famed Senegalese Lamtuna Berber (otherwise known as Kel Aulamidden) before they fell back southward and mixed with black Africans in Niger where they still live.

My oh my, when they said his complexion was brown they most certainly weren't exaggerating were they?!

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

That didn't make sense. This is not the old al-Takruri. lol!
Dearest Dana milove
Ya wanna know what makes no sense?
Allowing enthusiasm to override scholarship.
Since when were Nilo-Sahara speaking Teda and Zaghawa speakers of Berber?
Please clarify this for me with linguistics not folklore.
Ya know what, even any old pre-1500 Arabic author will do.
al~Jahiz, the brightest and the best, noted Berber and
Zaghawa as two separate ethnies amongst the sudan (blacks).

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Tukuler
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That piss poor "painting" claimed to be Tariq not
only has no provenance but so much as lacks any
indication by the naive painter that the subject
is in fact supposed to be Tariq (on a throne?).

But here's the Bakr!
 -
Now that's B L A C K and Berber bibba!!
 -
Sanhaja general Abu Bakr of the Almoravids famed amir
of the 11th c. Sanhadja confederacy in the Sahara giving
the Black Power salute, right on brother right on!!!

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Anyone familiar with the colonial documents knows that Amazigh is a recently nationalist designation. [Wink]

Leo Africanus begs to differ.

But yes these "Amazigh" activist are off the hook.
The most vocal of them are 1/2 Spaniard or what not.
Some of the current biggest "lies agreed upon" by a
set of "associates" can be found in The Amazigh Voice
where history is fucked harder than by a rapist on cialis.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Clyde Winters:

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 16, 2009
The Vandal Origin of the Berbers
Cheikh Anta Diop makes it clear that the Berbers are not related to Palaeo-Africans. In Libya Antiqua, Diop explains how the original Libu and Tehenu were blacks; and that the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea who arrived in the area around 1200 BC and fought Ramses III.

He makes it clear that the majority of the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea See:Diop, C A , "Formation of the Berber Branch", In Libya Antiqua,(ed) by UNESCO ,(Paris:UNESCO 1986) page 69 and C.A. Diop Civilization or Barbarism (Lawrence Hill Com.1991, p.34).


The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.

The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.

The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.

The experts say that the Berber languages (I am not including Tuareg) has elements from numerous European languages I have never seen any discussion of Berber relations to East African languages, Berber languages are related to the Semitic group due to the Arabic speakers that surround them.


Claudio Ottoni et al.i on paternal, them maternal ancestry of the Libyan Tuareg:


Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A genetic survey of their paternal heritage

Claudio Ottoni et al.

Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations. For centuries they were caravan traders plying the trade routes between the Mediterranean coast and south-Saharan Africa. Their origin most likely coincides with the fall of the Garamantes who inhabited the Fezzan (Libya) between the 1st millennium BC and the 5th century AD. In this study we report novel data on the Y-chromosome variation in the Libyan Tuareg from Al Awaynat and Tahala, two villages in Fezzan, whose maternal genetic pool was previously characterized. High-resolution investigation of 37 Y-chromosome STR loci and analysis of 35 bi-allelic markers in 47 individuals revealed a predominant northwest African component (E-M81, haplogroup E1b1b1b) which likely originated in the second half of the Holocene in the same ancestral population that contributed to the maternal pool of the Libyan Tuareg. A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups. The difference in haplogroup composition between the villages of Al Awaynat and Tahala suggests that founder effects and drift played a significant role in shaping the genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg.


First Genetic Insight into Libyan Tuaregs: A Maternal Perspective

Claudio Ottoni et al.

Abstract

The Tuaregs are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of northwest Africa. Their origins are still a matter of debate due to the scarcity of genetic and historical data. Here we report the first data on the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genetic characterization of a Tuareg sample from Fezzan (Libyan Sahara). A total of 129 individuals from two villages in the Acacus region were genetically analysed. Both the hypervariable regions and the coding region of mtDNA were investigated. Phylogeographic investigation was carried out in order to reconstruct human migratory shifts in central Sahara, and to shed light on the origin of the Libyan Tuaregs. Our results clearly show low genetic diversity in the sample, possibly due to genetic drift and founder effect associated with the separation of Libyan Tuaregs from an ancestral population. Furthermore, the maternal genetic pool of the Libyan Tuaregs is characterized by a major "European" component shared with the Berbers that could be traced to the Iberian Peninsula, as well as a minor 'south Saharan' contribution possibly linked to both Eastern African and Near Eastern populations.

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Doug M
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As has been said over and over again but reiterated here again. The languages labeled as "Berber", even though probably not called that at the time or by those who spoke it, originate in East Africa somewhere between modern Egypt and Sudan somewhere about 3 to 5 thousand years ago. It then moves westward through the Sahara and into Northern Africa among pastoral nomadic groups related to the ancestors of the Beja in Sudan, the Fulani across the Sahel and the Tuareg. These people then experience various episodes of interaction and migration with other European populations from across the Sahara including the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians, early Iberians, the Romans;early Arab invasions; Moorish Spain;the Ottoman Turks, waves of European slaves from Southeastern Europe and then European colonization. Therefore the population is a mixture of various elements from various Eurasian populations and cultures to the more aboriginal populations still in the Sahara.
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Mazigh
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What peoople don't like to hear is the name Amazigh. The book above mentioned the book "The Berbers" that said: The name Berber appeared after arab conquest. So, the writer could say: How could the Arabs conquer the Berbers if they didn't exist before the Arabs.
Of couse he knows the name Amazigh like the most of you, but they wrap it, because it doesn't serve their pseudo-scholarschip. Amazigh is not a solgan created by some Berber nationalist consisting of tribes that don't understand each others like some make believe. Amazigh is an ancient name. It originates in times before the expansion of the Berbers. If not, how could the Nefusi berber in Libya an Riffian in Morocco call themselves Imazighen even if they never knew there are Berbers in other countries, and even if they never read a word in a book. How it comes that the so isolated Touareg could maintain an own version of the name Amazigh, namelly "Amahaq", since the z is changed H in their language like "Ahul" and "Azul". Was it France that bombed the Berber with chemical weapons who created this name "amazigh" and the berber nation. No, Herodotus two thousands and five hundred years noted the name "Maxyans", and even hundreds year before...

Now, the great invention: "The berber languages" spoken by tribes don't understand each other. They're labeld "Berber". Nonsense. Berber language is not a nationalist label, it is linguistic name. there is a difference between the variations, but they are all Berbe/Amazigh, and i can understand most parts of a Siwi or Nefusi Berber language. althought I'm originating in Morocco, and never learnt the Berber language at school.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Anyone familiar with the colonial documents knows that Amazigh is a recently nationalist designation. [Wink]

Leo Africanus begs to differ.

But yes these "Amazigh" activist are off the hook.
The most vocal of them are 1/2 Spaniard or what not.
Some of the current biggest "lies agreed upon" by a
set of "associates" can be found in The Amazigh Voice
...

Funny you should mention the "Amazigh Voice" in your retort. Its a good example and unfortunately a little too close to home for me to comment on. [Eek!]

Actually what I meant is the term "Amazigh" is presently a nationalist designation in the sense that it has been adopted from the Shluh or Chleuh (who are mainly called Masmuda) and Tuareg who called themselves "Imoshagh". Colonialists themselves only used it for a single group of Berbers differentiated from Kabyles and other groups.

The name was also mentioned as Mauri Mazazeces and Mazikes in the Roman period and referred to an "Ethiopian" population in the deserts of Tripoli and Tunis. The same name was found in the eastern deserts and probably linked to the name of the Masikha branch of the Azd directly across the Red Sea in the Wadi Dawqa nortth of Ta'if, in the lower part of Medina and the Yemen. The Masikh or Masikha were a very ancient and very well known branch of the Azd from the Kahlan in the Yemen. See R. Khanam, (2005) Ethnocyclopedic Ethnography of Middle East adn Central Asia Vol. 1 p. 66 See. the 1994"Zayd B. Thabit," A Jew with Two Sidelocks": Judaism and Literacy in Pre-Islamic Medina (Yathrib) by M. Lecker, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 56:4 p. 259. Also see Brian Ulrich. (2008)Constructing al-Azd: Tribal Identity and Society in th Early Islamic Centuries, p. 87.


Both Shluh and Tuareg traditionally claimed descent from Masikh or Mazigh a son or descendant of Kena'anah i.e. peoples of the Wadi Kenawnah in southwest Arabia where the Azd lived.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.

That didn't make sense. This is not the old al-Takruri. lol!
Dearest Dana milove
Ya wanna know what makes no sense?
Allowing enthusiasm to override scholarship.
Since when were Nilo-Sahara speaking Teda and Zaghawa speakers of Berber?
Please clarify this for me with linguistics not folklore.
Ya know what, even any old pre-1500 Arabic author will do.
al~Jahiz, the brightest and the best, noted Berber and
Zaghawa as two separate ethnies amongst the sudan (blacks).

Well, if it appears as "overenthusiasm", don't get carried away with it, just blame it on the Beli and Zaghawa/Zawagha who call themselves the "Beriberi" and have spread the word to the Niger-Congo/Mande speakers Songhai and Imraguen groups they originally comprised. You can also blame it on the scholars who in fact know that the Zaghawa were part of those confederations the Arabs and the Byzantines before them called "Berbers".


H. Mones wrote in his article, “The Conquest of North Africa and Berber Resistance” of the Zaghawa noting that “...the Zanata (or Zanatians) inhabited Cyrenaica and Tripolitania, extending southward as far as Djabal Nafusa and the oases of Fezzan, the predominant confederations of kabilas being those of the Hawwara, Luwata, Nafusa, and ZAGHAWA” (Mones, Africa from the 7th to the 11th Century General History of Africa,UNESCo, 1988, p. 228).

Abun-Nasr and other Arabic speaking historians more recently have used the spelling, “Zawagha”. Abun-Nasr, J (1987) – A history of the Maghreb in the Islamic period. Speaking of the Ibadites he writes "Khalaf was supported at first by the Zawagha tribe living along the Tripolitanian coast..." p. 46. The Ibadites were exclusively Zaghawa i.e Zawagha and Tuareg (Luwata, Mizrata, Hawwara). "Al Bakri says after the foundation of Tahart groups of the Lawata, Hawara, Zawagha, Matmata, Zanata, and Miknasa tribes settled in different localities around it." p. 45.

A Najeebabadi wrote “Gradually Idris become [sic] popular among Zawagha, Lawata, Zanata, Sadrota, Meknes and the Ghanaza clans of the Berbers” (2001, Najeebabadi, A.S. (2000). History of Islam, Volume 3 (Darussalam Saudi Arabia)p. 222).

As unbelievable as it may sound the Zaghawa were a very large portion of the medieval Berbers. The only others being the Tuareg, the Masmuda and Sanhaja being like the Zanata a probable mixture of the two.

The name "Beriberi" appears among the Zaghawa peoples in particular to have been a designation that belonged to the Beli-Zaghawa originally i.e. Baliyyun branch of the Beja that had been transferred to the Zaghawa in general. While Beli themselves appear to have been a branch of Cushitic speaking group known as Bediyat or Erigat and tied to the Belhmt or early Blemmyae. The Blemmyes or Belhmt as they were called in the Roman period are the most likely bet for the word "Berber" being used for the present Zaghawa speakers. It is not "lore" though since they still refer to themselves as such as did medieval Arabic writers.

For more information on the Blemmye connection to the Beli (or Erigat Beja) see David Goldenberg's, RABBINIC KNOWLEDGE OF BLACK AFRICA (Sifre Deut. 320), Jewish Studies Quarterly 5 (1998) 318-28. It's online.

Dr. Goldenberg is, by the way, one of the more reliable sources these days in the West on things African, including black things. [Wink]

Since the Zaghawa or Azuwagh speakers were originally tied to the proto-Berber peoples of the Sahara and in fact since the time of the Tuareg (Lewata) conquest of the Garamantes they have been in the North speakers of both Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan dialects. If and when you have researched the topic of the Berbers thoroughly you will find and be as amazed as myself to discover what Mones and other specialists know for a fact - that the Zawagha or Zaghai were a large portion of the Sanhaja and Zanata "BERBERS" and are the same people as were originally called Zaghai, Zughai or Songhai.

They were also as I have written here previously the same people as were called Garawan or Wangarawa in the West and Jarawa in the East. The latter are called by Taha "a huge" portion of the Zanata Berbers in his book the Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North AFrica and Spain 1988 p. 24.


In the north "Zaghawa" or "Zawagha" as they are known in Sudan and Chad are mostly called Zawagha and are referred to as "Berbers" in medieval texts. Thus they are either "Beriberi" that have adopted Nilo-Saharan dialect or else Nilo-saharans who were connected with speakers of the Afro-Asiatic dialects from a very early period.

In fact it appears Zaghawa, Teda, Dayzaga or Gor'an (Garawan) and other Nilo-Saharan groups have been living amongst each other for thousands of years some adopting the Tuareg dialects or proto-Berber dialects and becoming a vassal agricultural group among the more nomadic Tuareg and others the Beli portion perhaps remaining nomadic and probably either becoming or aligning themselves with the Sadarata or Sidarata Berbers who named the Gulf of Sidra.

The mixture of these groups can be seen in places like Ghadames, the Gharian, Wargla, Tuwat, Jebel Nafusa, the Dra'a and other places where the people are basically still pretty much black descendants of the Zanata speaking 'Azuwagh" from the Libyan coasts. Zawagha/Azuwagha is the Arabized metathesis or form of Zaghawa.
i have also already talked in other places about the close relationship between them and the Jarawa or Garawan/Wangara and the fact that most of these Zawagha/Azawagh and Zaghawa in medieval North Africa and Spain were originally Jewish as in Africa (before becoming ibadi0.

In a book review in volume 22 of the “Journal of the African Society” (1922), we read, “From Edrisi we learn that the Zaghawa Berbers (who towards 900 A.D. ruled Kanem) were fused and influenced by other Berbers called ‘Sadrata’. From Dr. Mercier’s work it seems fairly clear that the word Sidrata hitherto unexplained were Kharijite Berbers of the Wargla region” ( p. 255).

The Encylopedia of Islam also reads, “The Zaghawa were in part Berber speaking (the Sadrata) and were semi-sedentary. They possessed a capital that was located in the regions of Borkou.” (The parenthesis is not mine.)

Whatever dialect was spoken by the Zaghawa in Borkou at that period, Idrisi said the Sadrata recognized a racial affiliation with them.

I can not write a paper here but just know that the people also carried this name Borkou or Borgou wherever they went and hence the name of the Berber Bhergawa or Bhargwata an branch of the Masmuda which Carocopino said was likely the name of the Mauri Bacqautes mentioned in teh Byzantine period.

“As for the city of Sidrata or Sedrata it seems to have been the capital of the oasis of Wargla between the fourth/tenth and sixth/twelfth centuries B.C. The name of this city derives from that of the Sadrata Berbers, another group of which inhabit the Mzab” This from Peek & Yankah, (2004). African folklore: An encyclopedia. Routledge. pp. 59-60).

Thus I would say "overenthusiasm" doesn't quite fit the bill or for that matter match the evidence - does it? [Wink]

 -
Zanata of Gourara in Central Algeria

Hope I'm still a dearest! [Wink]

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the lioness,
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The tribes of Northern and Central Kordofán
By Sir Harold Alfred MacMichael 1967

Chapter VIII

The Zaghawa

http://books.google.com/books?id=YIqD51TsiwgC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Zaghawa+

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
The tribes of Northern and Central Kordofán
By Sir Harold Alfred MacMichael 1967

Chapter VIII

The Zaghawa

http://books.google.com/books?id=YIqD51TsiwgC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Zaghawa+

Yes agreed thanks I was going to add this source but thought I was writing too much already, and I guess there is always a second time. [Wink]
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
That piss poor "painting" claimed to be Tariq not
only has no provenance but so much as lacks any
indication by the naive painter that the subject
is in fact supposed to be Tariq (on a throne?).

But here's the Bakr!
 -
Now that's B L A C K and Berber bibba!!
 -
Sanhaja general Abu Bakr of the Almoravids famed amir
of the 11th c. Sanhadja confederacy in the Sahara giving
the Black Power salute, right on brother right on!!!

Lol! I hadn't noticed the hand although I think he might be holding something.

Nor did I notice the supposedly Nafuzawa Berber Tariq on his throne.

Now we will have to check to see if he really was described as having light colored hair.


 -
Typical Jebel Nafusa girl (northwest Libya) (Wow Svenska this almost looks like you. You wish.. right? lol!)

The Nafzawa belonged to the Zanata. The original Berbers retreated there and the Gharyan and other places. I guess Tariq was one of the few that got mixed with the Vandals. [Frown]

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
What peoople don't like to hear is the name Amazigh. The book above mentioned the book "The Berbers" that said: The name Berber appeared after arab conquest. So, the writer could say: How could the Arabs conquer the Berbers if they didn't exist before the Arabs.
Of couse he knows the name Amazigh like the most of you, but they wrap it, because it doesn't serve their pseudo-scholarschip. Amazigh is not a solgan created by some Berber nationalist consisting of tribes that don't understand each others like some make believe. Amazigh is an ancient name. It originates in times before the expansion of the Berbers. If not, how could the Nefusi berber in Libya an Riffian in Morocco call themselves Imazighen even if they never knew there are Berbers in other countries, and even if they never read a word in a book. How it comes that the so isolated Touareg could maintain an own version of the name Amazigh, namelly "Amahaq", since the z is changed H in their language like "Ahul" and "Azul". Was it France that bombed the Berber with chemical weapons who created this name "amazigh" and the berber nation. No, Herodotus two thousands and five hundred years noted the name "Maxyans", and even hundreds year before...

Now, the great invention: "The berber languages" spoken by tribes don't understand each other. They're labeld "Berber". Nonsense. Berber language is not a nationalist label, it is linguistic name. there is a difference between the variations, but they are all Berbe/Amazigh, and i can understand most parts of a Siwi or Nefusi Berber language. althought I'm originating in Morocco, and never learnt the Berber language at school.

The name Berber is used for the Greeks for the inhabitants of Berbera a region in Somalia several centuries before the appearance of the Arabs.

The name Amazigh is only used for a portion of the Shluh or Chleuh up until colonial times and the Tuareg. THAT IS ALL!

AMAZIGH is a nationalist term adopted RECENTLY by racist people of Turkish, VANDAL and God knows where descent in North AFrica now speaking the dialects of the black originally EAST AFRICAN peoples.


Much of the disinformation is being promoted by Turkish and Slavic-looking, educated portion of Berber-SPEAKERS who have chosed to distort the history of the African "AMAZIGH" FORMERLY "THE ETHIOPIANS" KNOWN AS "MAURI MAZIKES" due to their contempt for and inability to get along with the darker- skinned Africans especially in Morocco.


"...racism PERSISTS among many Berber members of cultural and HUMAN RIGHTS ASSOCIATIONS, in spite of their avowal of universalist principles adn their claim of 'Africanity'as an element of Berber and Moroccan identity...

"Berber RESENTMENT of Iqbliyin (i.e. Haratin/my parentheses) is matched by a lack of solidarity between the AMAZIGH MOVEMENT and the fight for Sahrawi self-determination, combined with persistent RACISM, marks a BLACK-BERBER RACIAL DIVIDE that PARALLELS and occasionally reinforces ongoing ARAB-BERBER ethnic fragmentation." !!!!!!!!!!!

These passages are from Berbers and Others: Beyond Tribe and Nation in the Maghrib by Katherine E. Hoffman, Susan G. Miller (2010) p. 93.


The fair-skinned people calling themselves Berbers are LESS BERBER by blood than the SAHRAWI Moors as far as I am concerned - AND THE HARATIN.

The historical lies that they are creating are purely politically-based and idealogically driven founded on their present VIOLENT civil unrest with THE VERY DARK BROWN HARATIN AND MOSTLY DARK BROWN SAHRAWI PEOPLES!

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Repost,

"northern European ancestry"


Northern European populations, relate closely to Germanic people. Depending on the part of the region.

Thus German, Dutch ... etc. So this does make sense.


Folks like the Vadals are related to Germanic, Nordic Europeans. They invaded Northwest Africa.


quote:
Now the Vandals, dwelling about the Maeotic Lake [the Sea of Azov], since they were pressed by hunger, moved to the country of the Germans, who are now called Franks, and the river Rhine, associating with themselves the Alans, a Gothic people [Arkenberg: actually, they were one of the Indo-Iranian peoples].
Ancient History Sourcebook:
Procopius of Caesarea:
Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/procopius-vandals.asp


quote:
quote:


The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241



--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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^ LOL at Ish Gebor with the back migration quotes
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xyyman
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History is a lie agreed upon,

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It works quite fine.

History is a lie agreed upon.

What makes one lie more acceptable than another?

The lie one and one's associates like the best.


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ LOL at Ish Gebor with the back migration quotes

LOL at the buzzword, back-migration. LOL


I am eurasian. I live in Europe. LOL

Posts: 18871 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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