quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Actually the Afroasiatic identity of Omotic has been vindicated
Not really. Here's the actual direction that the status quo on Omotic classification has been increasingly moving in since the work of Rolf Theil, an Omotic specialist:
"Omotic is the most controversial grouping typically characterized as Afroasiatic because the grammatical formatives ‘to which Afroasiaticists have tended to attach the greatest importance are either absent or distinctly wobbly’ (Hayward 1995: 14). Greenberg (1963) and others considered Omotic to be a subgroup of Cushitic, but there have been repeated questions as to whether Omotic can be considered Afroasiatic at all (e.g., Theil 2006). One view is that only the most divergent set of Omotic languages, the Aroid languages (including languages Ari, Hamer, and Dime), are actually Nilo-Saharan (e.g., Zaborski 2004; Moges 2007). Most specialists regard Omotic as a separate sub-branch of Afroasiatic, but this might lead some to underestimate the internal diversity of the 25 or so Omotic languages, which appears to be greater than that found in Berber and Semitic."
“Omotic languages”, =416, still cause a lot of disagreement; whether it belongs or not to “Afro-Asiatic languages” has been questioned in recent years, and many influential authors (e.g. Newman, 1980, and Theil, 2006) believe that it should be regarded as an independent family."
If you had bothered to read your first quote carefully, it actually agrees that most specialists do accept Omotic as Afroasiatic, even if a handful of guys like Thiel disagree.
Not that Omotic is really necessary to prove that Afroasiatic as a phylum originated in Africa as is the scholarly consensus anyway...
Posts: 7113 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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GOod exposure of the dubious "hamitic union" Dana. Their claims easily fall flat on examination in 3 ways.
1) So-called "leading authority" Froment has in no way "debunked" the data of Hiernaux. To the contrary- Hiernaux's balanced model of African diversity, including elongated Africans, has been confirmed multiple times, using both skeletal evidence and DNA, and is so cited by Keita 1991, 1999, 2005 etc. The only "debunking" is of the bogus fantasies of the equally bogus "hamitic" "union".
2. Maca-Meyer's claims are unimpressive as part of any racial "Kakazoid" model of expansion. We all know that there has been ancient gene flow via the crossroads that is the Middle East, but at what point did such gene flow become "Kakazoid", save as yet another self-serving Eurocentric labeling exercise?
In fact, Maca-Meyer undermines assorted "Kakazoid" race models by noting that gene differentiation was ALREADY occurring WITHIN Africa t`ens of thousands of years ago. IN other words, the gene variants that would become distinctive in Asia and the "Middle East" were ALREADY taking place WITHIN Africa BEFORE any SIGNIFICANT EXPANSION OUTWARD. These would grow more distinct due to time and distance from Africa but the founding variants and/or proto-variants were ALREADY in place WITHIN Africa. Hence, African fishermen migrating into the Sinai PEnisula or Arabia circa 60kya did not suddenly become "Middle Eastern" or "Eurasian" nor does a white guy who crosses the Rio Grande into Mexico suddenly become "Hispanic." THis is the cynical labeling game being foisted on the gullible by the European academy to de-africanize tropical African peoples, or minimize their built in indigenous diversity.
3. Claims of "racial backflow" (however disguised with labels like "EUrasian" or "Middle Eastern") fall short, because those "backflowing" ALREADY RESEMBLED TROPICAL AFRICANS as proved by credible studies. It is hilarious to watch the self-serving hypocrisy of Eurocentrics. When dark-skinned, broad-nosed people with tropical limb proportions are found far west of the Sahara they are firmly "true negroes." WHen similar people are found in Arabia, the SInai or Iraq they comnveniently become "Eurasian." THe bogus "hamitic union" is a prime example of this hypocrisy in operation. ------------------------------------------------------------------
[b]In the attack on Afrocentrism so condescendingly voiced by the non-anthropologist Stephen Howe about African American historians he expressed his view that of a "moribund state" of the older "Eurocenttric" "Mediterranean race" theory. Afrocentrism: Mythical Pasts and Imagined Homes p. 116
^^Stephen Howe himself dabbles in hypocrisy and strawmen. He spends a great deal of time railing against "Afrocentrics" but carefully buried in his condescending screed is an admission of the central point raised by so-called "Afrocentrics"..
Likewise Froment is quoted as bashing the "Afrocentrics" but he too quietly admits the "sub-Saharan" character of the Nile Valley in various eras as well as similarities between Egyptians and East Africans.
Gene flow into the Nubian area during the Neolithic was not from reputed "wandering Caucasoids" but from tropical, Sub-Saharan types.
"Prior to the Neolithic, populations of the Nile Valley in Nubia are very robust, and, because of a gap in the fossil record,` it is difficult to connect them to later populations. Some have postulated a local evolution, due to diet change, while others postulated migrations, especially from the Sahara area. But between 5000 and 1000 BC, many cemeteries have supplied a large amount of skeletons, and the anatomical characters of Nubian populations are easier to follow-up.
Midgan1/2 cluster -kenya-somalia
Twenty-seven archaeological samples (4 at 5000 BC, 5 at 4000 BC, 10 at 3000 BC, 3 at 2000 BC, 5 at 1000 BC), and 10 craniofacial measurements, have been considered. While cerebral skull is fairly stable, facial skull displays several regular modifications, and specially a reduction of facial and nasal heights, a broadening of the nose, and an increase of prognathism, while bizygomatic breadth is unchanged. These features illustrate a trend towards a growing resemblance with populations of Sub-Saharan Africa living in wet environments. However, paleoclimatological studies show that Nubia experienced an increasing aridification during that period. It is then unlikely that such a morphological change could be related to any local adaptive evolution to environment. Random drift is also unlikely, because the anatomical trend is relatively uniform during these millennia. It then seems more plausible that these changes correspond to the increasing presence of Southern populations migrating northward." -- Froment, A. (2002) Morphological micro-evolution of Nubian Populations from, A-Group to Christian Epochs: gene flow, not local adaptation. Am J Phys Anthropol [Suppl] 34:72.
Afrocentric critic Froment also notes: "Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
This is a common pattern with the Eurocentrics. They build great bogus strawmen to slay - such as the dreaded bogeymen- the "Afrocentrics" while behind the scenes, at the backdoor, grudgingly conceding several central points raised by said "Afrocentrics." It's like Mary Lefkowitz who admits the African character of ancient Egypt, even as "Afrocentric critics" continue to use her work to "refute" Afrocentrism. These people actually believe no one has yet caught on to the game.
It turns out the Euronuts are not as Neanderdumb as one might have been misled to think. They can actually be excused for their constant harping on themes thought to be mostly long obsolete in the West.
^^Not so much excused as exposed. They can say what they like but once the the 3 points above are considered, their whole hypocritical edifice crumbles like a rotten house of cards. ------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Truthcentric: In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.---Pierre M. Vermeersch (Author & Editor), 'Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt', Egyptian Prehistory Monographs Vol. 4, Leuven University Press (2002).
^Indeed. Posts: 5910 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: BTW - yes everyone here knows Somalis, Ethiopians and Sahelians have "Caucasoid' i.e. Eurasiatic blood. That doesn't mean their ancient black African ancestors were "Caucasoids".
Ok, so we agree that admixture has taken place; we just disagree in which direction. My perspective on this issue is the same as Gunther Bräuer's. He at various periods studied the key North and East African prehistoric remains at hand. Here's a summary of what he wrote in his 1978 paper linked to earlier:
"There is a third African major race: the Mediterranean. The populations living on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea and in parts of East Africa are classified as Mediterranean or Afro-Mediterranean because of their relatively homogeneous Europid characteristics. Due to various admixtures with neighbouring Negrid populations in prehistoric and historic times, the present populations of East Africa in particular are more or less heterogeneous in appearance, especially with regard to soft-tissue morphology[...]
The Mediterranean character is clearly dominant among the Ethiopids, who include the large populations of the Amhara, the Galla and the Somali. Their skeletal features are predominantly Europid; the nose is generally narrow and prominent. However, there are also Negrid admixtures of varying degrees among the individual tribes. The Negrid character is strongest among the Sidamos in South West Ethiopia, and at its weakest among the Somali (Cole 1965)[...]
The number of sites in Algeria and Morocco belonging to the Ibero-Maurusian culture is relatively large. Especially well-known is the mesolithic cemetary of Afalou-bou-Rhummel on the Algerian coast, where in 1928-30 remains of more than 40 adults and a number of children were excavated (Arambourg 1929; Arambourg et al. 1934; Vallois 1952). Likewise linked with the Ibero-Maurusian culture is the important skeletal series of more than 280 individuals found in the Taforalt cave (Morocco) in 1951-1953 (Ferembach 1962). A late Pleistocene layer of this site has been dated to about 10,000-12,000 B.P. (Roche 1959).
In Maghreb, however, there are also numerous settlements of the North African Capsian, which are linked with huge shell mounds. The most important site of this type is Mechta-el-Arbi, southwest of Constantine (Algeria), where in 1907-1927 remains of more than 30 individuals were found in a huge shell mound (Arambourg et al. 1934). As an indication of the dating, the absolute age of another shell mound associated with the same culture (Upper Capsian) may be of interest; it has been dated at about 8,400 + or - 400 B. P., the beginning of the Holocene (Ivanova 1972). The skeletons from Dar-es-Soltan near Rabat (Morocco) also are ascribed to the Mechta type (Vallois 1951; Ferembach 1976).
The morphological affinities of all of these samples are generally Europid, though there appears to have been differentiation into two morphotypes. One is represented by tall, robust individuals with large, long and high crania, broad faces with low, rectangular sloping orbitae and heavy rugged jaws with strong chins (Briggs 1955; Ferembach 1962). The other type comprises individuals with small faces and less rugged "leptodolichomorphic" characteristics. Although both combinations of characteristics do not generally occur separately, relating to the sites, there is some evidence of a tendency (Schwidetzky 1970) for the more robust type to be more numerous in Ibero-Maurusian sites, while the leptodolichomorphic form is more frequent in those of the Capsian, as shown by the East African men of the Kenya Capsian.
The modern populations, too, can be understood on the basis of this polarity of types. The Berber populations from the Maghreb and North West Africa tend to be more robust and broad-faced than the Arabian populations and other groups from the East.
The present Egyptians are closer to the pole of the small leptodolichomorphic Mediterranean populations (Schwidetzky 1970), as evidenced by the populations of Egypt since predynastic times, and have yielded some larger series. However, Egypt had been infiltrated by groups of various populations, especially in historical times. The increase of Negrid influence is due primarily to the Arabic slave-trade. Nevertheless, Negrid influences in ancient Egypt seem to have been much smaller than in Nubia (Strouhal 1975). The present southern Nubians are tall and lightly built, but the skin colour is darker; they are probably the product of hybridization between Europid Egyptians and Negroids."
Umm... if I were u I wouldn't quote Strouhal or other neo-Nazic East Europids in addressing me. Thank you for your consideration of this matter. The narrow noses u see on us blacks are as those Europeans WITH BRAINS have concluded - due to the trend toward gracilizationm narrowness, elongation in osteology among US BLACKS whose ancestors evolved in deset-like coniditions. Not due to a connection with u squareheaded Europids i.e. Caucasoids.
Moral and END of story! "Dolphins look like fish, but THEY ARE NOT!" GET IT!?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Simpleton, go back a few pages and Gorpa has posted an excellent link to multiple NIGERIAN and other West African anthropometric studies from 2009, 2010 etc. These studies were carried out by Negroids themselves, and they reveal that West Africans strictly only have platyrrhine(wide) noses.
Thin noses do not exist in Negroids (West Africans). This has been confirmed by your own scientists you retard. Are you now calling Black Nigerian anthropologists ''neo-nazis''? Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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^ Does that include Fulani peoples of northern Nigeria or other parts of West Africa?? Funny how you call platyrrhine a "negroid" trait though when its found in the lower Nile Valley like Wadi Halfa and Badarians, or in the Levant among Natufians, or *shock* in Mesopotamia among Ubaidian and early Ur skulls, they are either 'bushmanoid' or archaic 'caucasoids'!! LOLPosts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Fulani have inherited Caucasoid traits, they personally distinguish themselves to Negroids and they avoid mixing with them calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire, 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning, 1959). They don't socially identify as "Black". Their genetics reveals a Western Eurasian (Caucasoid) component.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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^ All lies and distortions. Firstly, we had a couple of Fulani who posted on this board before and called you out on those exact lies!! Do you think I would forget, or perhaps YOU have faulty memory! LMAO What Fulani in his or her right mind would not consider himself as 'black', especially since there is NO difference between them and other West Africans in terms of color or complexion, you moron!!
The Fulani man above for example is painting his face for decorative purposes and not trying to 'hide' his complexion by any means. LOL
Secondly, what exactly is this "Western Eurasian" genetic component?? Last time I checked, Fulani are overwhelmingly no different from other "negroid" West Africans genetically both autosomally as well as in Y-chromosome and mitochondria. In fact the only "West Eurasian" genetic input among them are those along the coasts who have intermarried with European colonialists, yet these have "negroid" features. The majority who live farther inland and have so-called "caucasoid" features such as the Wodaabe carry 100% E1b1a lineages.
Less baseless claims and more evidence Anglo-Idiot!
Oh and I note you didn't bother to respond to the part about platyrrhine being found among the groups I listed. Posts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Anglo-Idiot please comeback and answer why the Fulani man in the above picture is not 'black' or would not consider himself as such.
Also in regards to platyrrhine being a "negroid" trait. If that's so why do we have this in regards to early Sumerians?
The forehead was retreating and the brow ridges were always prominent, the cheek bones were rather broad and the nose also was broad, in some case inclining to extreme platyrrhine…There can be no doubt that this type is that which has been described by Sergi, Giuffrida-Ruggeri, and Fleure, and named the Eurafican type… Buxton and Rice (1931)
Posts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_pisspot: Fulani have inherited Caucasoid traits, they personally distinguish themselves to Negroids and they avoid mixing with them calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire, 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning, 1959). They don't socially identify as "Black". Their genetics reveals a Western Eurasian (Caucasoid) component.
This was already responded to and was debunked many times, anyway. Repost!
Some Fulani's are in autosomal genetically related to the a lesser degree with Baggara Arabs and more so with Chadic people. The Chadic sample is probebly what they've sequeced as "eurasian" lol
And this is a Baggara Arab.
quote: The Shuwa Arabs are commonly referred to as the "Baggara." This name is derived from the Arabic word bagar, meaning "cow," and refers to the Arab tribes in West Africa who are cattle herders.
Tiskoff et al. has sequeces of them in a paper by her.
It completely destroys your repetitive bullshit.Yup, it does!
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ Indeed, that would be the same Tishkoff study that labeled significant autosomal sequences among the Dogon as "Eurasian" as well!
Here are Dogon people..
The problem with labeling autosomal sequences is that one is not entirely certain of affinity or origins of certain sequences especially when data for the genomics of closely related populations are sorely lacking which is the exact case of Africans of the Saharan and northern region.
This is why uniparental markers like Y-chromosome SNP or mitochondria is more reliable.
By the way, I believe Explorer and Rasol posted craniometric data before that show affinities between Dogon and early 'Mechtoid' types.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_pisspot: Fulani have inherited Caucasoid traits, they personally distinguish themselves to Negroids and they avoid mixing with them calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire, 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning, 1959). They don't socially identify as "Black". Their genetics reveals a Western Eurasian (Caucasoid) component.
This was already responded to and was debunked many times, anyway. Repost!
Yeah! Just like I said, the Anglo-Idiot's very post above was debunked by ACTUAL FULANI who posted on this thread. But of course the white racist fool is always right, right? LOLPosts: 26356 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Fulani have inherited Caucasoid traits, they personally distinguish themselves to Negroids and they avoid mixing with them calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire, 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning, 1959). They don't socially identify as "Black". Their genetics reveals a Western Eurasian (Caucasoid) component.
Africans didn't in general socially identify as black in the European sense of the word - Neandernut, although i do agree with you that the original Fulani being descendants of the black people that occupied the coasts of the Mediterranean for thousands of years and spread to the deserts of Syro-Arabia have probably absorbed some recent Eurasiatic blood which has led to longer hair. Its been established they have "low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry", obviously much lower than the people of Zanzibar, African Americans, Amhara Ethiopians ,etc. Nevertheless their phenotype which is clearly like that of the Papuans, and like blacks evolved from their black desert dwelling ancestors Watusi and Somali and has been present for thousands of years as shown by the rock art. That is why of course bigger boned white people in Europe SUCH AS YOURSELF don't tend to have elongated refined features or faces with low vaulted noses like the Woodabe Fulani or as Coon mentioned Ramses which were similar to those of other ancient tall or elongated Afro-Asiatics of eastern Africa and Arabia.
Another words you are not us! Does that help?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Jean Hiernaux who wisely noted about the east Africans -
"There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Their features can be found in several living populations, who are very dark skinned and DIFFER GREATLY FROM EUROPEANS IN A NUMBER OF BODY PROPORTIONS. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia.." Hiernaux, J. 1975 The Peoples of Africa, p. 62 .
dana your thread doesn't make sense. You are saying the term "Negroid" is invalid yet you endorse Hiernaux who both uses the term "Caucasoids" and says that East Africans can be distinguished by body proportions
lioness productions 2012
But, both are tropical adapted in body portions.
Both have tropical body plans.LOL
Dumb racist cold adapted asshole!
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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What Fulani in his or her right mind would not consider himself as 'black', especially since there is NO difference between them and other West Africans in terms of color or complexion, you moron!!
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