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As stated in my previous post I openly challenge all that believe this ! Where is your evidence? Don't forget to cite your sources.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Classic burden of proof fallacy.
The burden is on you to support your statement with data and facts. The burden is not on others to disprove that for which you have presented no proofs.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Okay, but I hear this claim Ad infinitum. I am just curious what evidence exists to prove this claim? The only evidence I see presented is artifacts but nobody cites anything to prove population displacement. If neither party is correct then neither should make such a claim if its not definitive.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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CHANGE IN THE ETHNIC COMPOSITION OF MODERN EGYPT:
We all know in terms of ethnic composition, modern Egypt, is much different from Ancient Egypt.
Contemporary Egypt, is mostly an ethnic admixture between foreign invaders and conquerors and indigenous African people. Autosomally, as a whole, they tend to cluster more with Eurasian especially the Middle East. In the south, populations like Nubians probably cluster more with Africans. All this is because of massive immigration from Europe and western Asia which started already in dynastic time, culminating in the Hyksos (Aamu) foreign rule during the second intermediate period, as well as during the late periods up to now (Assyrians, Arab conquest, British colonization, etc).
quote: As a consequence the many invasions of ancient Egypt, the population has changed over the years. There were Hyksos (Heka Khasut) from Asia, who melted into the Delta Region around 1500 B.C.E., and then a series of invasions by the Assyrians, Persians and Greeks. With the arrival of large groups of Arabians in the seventh century C.E., the racial character of Egypt began to change.
The resultant mixtures of Africans, Arabs, Greeks and Persians were to be jointed with Turks, Russians, Albanians, British, and French to create a different population that there had been during the ancient times.
One cannot say that today's Egypt is the same as the Egypt of antiquity anymore than one can say that today's North America is the same as it was 5000 years ago.
- From The Oxford Encyclopedia of African Thought, Volume 1 (2010)
quote:With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.
- From A Brief History of Egypt by Jr. Goldschmidt Arthur (2007)
quote: - Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass immigration .
from Ethnicity (Riggs, 2012) see above/original post for more
quote:The Late Period is often singled out as the time when mass immigration into Egypt altered the character of the country
from A Companion to Ancient History Edited by Andrew Erskine (2009)
quote:The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.
from A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present by Jason Thompson (2009)Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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So modern Egyptians are a mix of Libyans, Nubians, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians and indigenous Ancient Egyptians, indigenous black Africans.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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^It never fails to amaze me how people who look so different from the indigenous, still claim to be descendants of the indigenous.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^It never fails to amaze me how people who look so different from the indigenous, still claim to be descendants of the indigenous.
quote:The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.
from A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present by Jason Thompson (2009)
you need more demographic detail to make a convincing case for popualtion replacement
quote: "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."
Clines and clusters versus “Race:” a test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile C. Loring Brace1, David P. Tracer2, Lucia Allen Yaroch1, John Robb1, Kari Brandt1 andA. Russell Nelson1 Article first published online: 14 JUN 2005
posted
There was population replacement in ancient Egypt.
Since the Assyrians first conquered the Egyptians there has been a slow replacement of ancient Egyptians by Middle Eastern and Western European peoples.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Some ancient Egyptian caused political and military conflicts that led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deerters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testfy to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
The Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign dominantion the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population.
posted
This is the burden of proof fallacy because some of them are descendants thus its impossible to prove that they aren't. You ought to be able to tell that the majority of the current population isnt close to being direct descendants of the ancients. All you need is a base knowledge of their history and functional vision.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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Scientific data long posted here shows that they are not IDENTICAL to the ancients, and that substantial changes did take place. Are there some descendants? Sure, particularly in the rural areas. But it would be difficult to say that the current Arabized population is identical to the ancients or that population represents an essentially unchanged entity from ancient times.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^^Since there's black African people in modern Egypt, including of recent origins (or not so recent), it should be easy to find.
Modern Egyptians are a nice mix of many peoples including black Africans to various degrees (from none to mostly black Africans). The majority of modern Egyptians cluster closer genetically (as well as historically and culturally) to Middle Eastern and European people than black Africans (and thus Ancient Egyptians) though.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Since there's black African people in modern Egypt, including of recent origins (or not so recent), it should be easy to find.
Modern Egyptians are a nice mix of many peoples including black Africans to various degrees (from none to mostly black Africans). The majority of modern Egyptians cluster closer genetically (as well as historically and culturally) to Middle Eastern and European people than black Africans (and thus Ancient Egyptians) though.
I dont think I have ever seen anyone in person with a nose like that doll in the middle even when I lived in black neighborhoods.
This screams colonial nose job. He looks like average joe in his painting and gonzo in his bust.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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^^^ The fact that those statues were not intentionally damaged like most Ancient Egyptian statues is a clue that they may have been produced in late foreign dynasties. We know late foreign dynasties (Assyrians, Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, etc) appropriated the Ancient Egyptian culture for themselves for a while.
Those are the hieroglyph for the word 'face' (phoneme HR) in Ancient Egyptian language. It's unlikely they would pick faces of foreign people to represent the word 'face' in their own language. You can see they have all types of noses:
Find a modern Egyptian with a nose as wide as the two on the right.
^^Well, narrow noses are just as "African" as broad noses. Deserts for example tend to produce narrower noses to deal with the arid air. It would be no surprise if people living for numerous centuries in a desert region, or near a cooler coastal zone have narrower noses compared to people in very humid zones. This is one reasons Africans need no "race mix" to have such features. And of course SOME population elements from ancient times, in various ways- such as via Arabized admixtures- would be reflected in the modern era.
And IN ADDITION TO climatic adaptation, Africans have the most phenotypic diversity BUILT-IN natively, another reason they need no "race mix" to have diverse features.
Also keep in mind that any "carryover" from ancient times, would ALSO INCLUDE NATIVE DARK SKINNED TYPES, who were there from earliest times. Dark skin or broad noses were never "foreign" to Egypt. They have been thee from the earliest times.
Aswan area streets..
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Uh I get that Africans have narrow noses and long noses even with the odd bulbous tip like this Mangbetu cheif.
However you arent addressing the question. You probably know that the extreme Shabti doll nose width is not alone in the art even with large bust see 7-11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBsnZYZCK_w They might not last in the museum lol.
So lets see some modern Egyptians with tropical features that are this extreme. Should be easy right? There are 80 million people living in Egypt today compared to less than 1,000 statues.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
Well an extreme broad nose proves little, given the diversity of Egypt, and Africa. Others are welcome to it though. Keep in mind also that "tropical features" would INCLUDE BOTH narrow and broad noses because Africa's tropical zone contains numerous mini/micro climatic zones. Deserts for example would tend to narrower noses, as would high altitudes, a would some coal coastal areas. All of the above are part of the diverse tropical zone. Some try to make out that the "tropics" as only wet jungle or savannah with singing natives happily hauling their loads, but tropics are much more. And almost 20% of Egypt, some people conveniently forget falls within the tropical zone. Also to be kept in mind is that African people move around freely. They can be in the tropical zone, or outside in semi-tropical. They are not huddled behind climatic "apartheid" or enviro barriers like the Sahara. Would you say that broad noses do not exist in today's Arabized Egypt?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Would you say that broad noses do not exist in today's Arabized Egypt?
Except for the "Official" name "The Arab Republic of Egypt." And the religion: Islam, which was started in Arabia.
What evidence do you have that Egypt or anywhere else is Arabized? As a matter of fact, can you demonstrate WHAT "Arabized" IS?
That part of the world was ruled by Arabs for about 600 years - to 1250, but it was ruled by Turks for about 665 years - to 1915 (and still is by Turkish Mulattoes). Since Turkish rule was the most recent, it would seem to me that Egypt and the region would best be described as Turkishized NOT Arabized.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Well an extreme broad nose proves little, given the diversity of Egypt, and Africa. Others are welcome to it though. Keep in mind also that "tropical features" would INCLUDE BOTH narrow and broad noses because Africa's tropical zone contains numerous mini/micro climatic zones. Deserts for example would tend to narrower noses, as would high altitudes, a would some coal coastal areas.
Interesting I always figured sexual selection had more to do it. You did post one picture of a fellow with a wide nose. Not quite as wide as the doll's but closest so far. I'm of the mind that ancient Egypt was closer to Mike's Pan African model thus it was so diverse it had more extremes. You really see it in the detailed shabti dolls being that they are unedited.
posted
^Excellent use of, and analysis of, artifacts 42.
Years ago, there were some young one's here who didn't understand how (authentic) artifacts were to be used, the dumb bastards called it "Picture Spam". Glad to see that you understand their proper use.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: [ I'm of the mind that ancient Egypt was closer to Mike's Pan African model thus it was so diverse it had more extremes. You really see it in the detailed shabti dolls being that they are unedited.
If you think Mike woulkd ever use the term "Pan African" you don't know Mike
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: [ I'm of the mind that ancient Egypt was closer to Mike's Pan African model thus it was so diverse it had more extremes. You really see it in the detailed shabti dolls being that they are unedited.
If you think Mike woulkd ever use the term "Pan African" you don't know Mike
lol ok well Pan Afroeurasian.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.
from A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present by Jason Thompson (2009)
you need more demographic detail to make a convincing case for popualtion replacement
quote: "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."
Clines and clusters versus “Race:” a test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile C. Loring Brace1, David P. Tracer2, Lucia Allen Yaroch1, John Robb1, Kari Brandt1 andA. Russell Nelson1 Article first published online: 14 JUN 2005
Bumb,
It's not even from 2005, it's from 1993. He rectified his statements in 2005. Because the samples he was given was squid with. TEMPERED, like you do so often. This was't the first time and neither the last time.
A craniofacial study by C. Loring Brace et. al. concluded that "The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa [except for Somalia], eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World."
Keita and Kittles (1997) criticize the study due its alleged contradictions, and selective approach in pigeon holding biohistorical Africans within a fixed architype, in effect, "deafricanizing" groups such as Egyptians, Nubians, and Somali people. They write:
Another example of the use of a socially constructed typological paradigm is in studies of the Nile Valley populations in which the concept of a biological African is restricted to those with a particular craniometric pattern (called in the past the 'True Negro' though no 'True White' was ever defined). Early Nubians, Egyptians, and even Somalians are viewed essentially as non-Africans, when in fact numerous lines of evidence and an evolutionary model make them a part of African biocultural/biogeographical history. The diversity of 'authentic' Africans is a reality. This diversity prevents biogeographical/biohistorical Africans from clustering into a single unit, no matter the kind of data. A 2005 study by Keita of Badarian crania in predynastic upper Egypt in comparison to various European and tropical African crania found that the predynastic Badarian series clusters much closer with the Tropical African series.
Another study by Brace et al. published in 2006 found that samples from Naqada II Bronze age Egypt clustered primarily with modern Somalis, Nubians, Arabic-speaking Fellaheen farmers of Israel, and more remotely with some Niger-Congo speaker, while adding that a "Sub-Saharan African element" was not found in the historical North African or Egyptian samples:
The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample - both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians - and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa. The other obvious matter shown in Fig. 3 is the separate identity of the northern Europeans.
Brace et al., 'Clines and clusters versus "race"' (1993) S.O.Y. Keita and Rick A. Kittles,' The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence', American Anthropologist (1997) S.O.Y. Keita, Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005) Brace et al, 2006 [2], p. 244
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