posted
lioness questions the spread of haplogroup R among Europeans as a result of mating with the Kushites because Mal'ta man carried haplogroup R, 24kya.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.
--Clyde Winters The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia
Clyde Hassan 2008 reported that Sudanese Fulani carry R-M173 (x P25) at a 54% frequency
You say an expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.
But R-M173 is estimated to be 12,500–25,700 years old.
Assuming that Sudanese Fulani are descendants of the Kushites are you saying that there was no R1a outside of Africa until around 4,000 years ago?
That doesn't make sense
In Europe, the highest frequencies are found in Central and Eastern Europe. Today it is found at its highest levels in Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%), Poland and Hungary (56%–60%), Ukraine (44-54%) High haplotype diversity was detected in Poland
Among the caste groups of India high percentages of this haplogroup are found in West Bengal Brahmins(72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins(48%) to the west, Khatris(67%) in north and Iyenger(31%) Brahmins of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu(26%), the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu
Absolute dating methods suggest that this marker is 10–15,000 years old, and the microsatellite diversity is greatest in southern Asia.
The modern population of South Asia has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin
My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup to both Europe and Africa
The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains
R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago
You base your argument on contemporary frequencies of R1a and R1b among Europeans. As has been shown repeatedly on this forum white Europeans did not originate in Europe, they come from Central Asia as a result the frequency of the R haplogroup among this population does not reflect the age of haplogroup R.
Granted, Khoisan probably introduced haplogroup R into Europe as early as 24kya. But Khoisan were later replaced by the Anu (Pygmies) and finally the Kushites. This means that the haplogroups carried by these later populations would have influenced the genetic landscape of Eurasia.
Since caucasians and mongoloid people do not appear in the archeological record until 2000 BC, and we see the replacement of Black populations in Europe and Central Asia after 1500 by whites (as evidenced by the People of the Sea). By this time the Great Flood had destroyed most Anu centers in Eurasia, and the Kushites had resettled many centers formerly occupied by the Anu.
As a result, Europeans carrying the R haplogroups today are the result of mating with the Kushites, who they met on their way from Central Asia into Europe. The only other way we can account for the R haplogroup among whites, is that when they exited their cave homeland in the caucasus mountains the Proto-white people were carrying the R haplogroup of their Khoisan ancestors. If this view is correct, the R haplogroup was the main haplogroup carried by whites during their sojurn in the caves .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Mankind originated in Africa. Africans spread to the rest of the world including Central Asia.
After 2000 BC there was a series of earthquacks and volcanic eruptions in Eurasia. As a result, the Proto-Europeans were able to leave their subterranean cave habitat in the Caucasus mountains, for the surface world.West of the Caspian Sea lies the Caucasus, a mountainous region that comprises of southeastern Russia (Northern Caucasus), Armenia, Azerbaijan (including disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region) and Georgia (South Caucasus).Europe was primarially settled by Blacks so the Proto-Europeans settled in Central Asia.They did not want to remain the mountains from which they had emerged.
The first mention of whites place them in Central Asia.Central Asia, also sometimes known as Middle Asia or Inner Asia, is a region in Asia east of the Caspian Sea, west of China, north of Afghanistan, and south of Russia. This would make whites indigenous to Central Asia.
The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe. here they congregated and used them like temples.
The Mal'ta skeletal remains indicate that these first Europeans carried the R haplogroup.
. In the caves these Blacks recorded their history and worshiped their gods.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.
. Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.
The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.
In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair. This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who live in the caves.
.
As you can see living in caves can cause the lost of melanin in the skin.After the tectonic events of 2000 BC the entrances of the caves opened in the Caucasus.
The original Black Europeans had turned into the people we call Europeans today.
The first Caucasians had lived in the caves for thousands of years. In this isolated undergroud homeland of whites, they mainly carried the R haplogroup introduced to Europe by their Khoisan ancestors.
During this time they probably treated each other badly.
Given the lack of life in the caves these first caucasians probably ate each other and suffered many bad things.
It is clear that the melanin in Europeans goes only into their hair. The only explanation for the appearance of whites, and stability of the lack of melanin among Europeans can only be explained by an extended period of time proto-Europeans living in the cave.
This would explain the varied type of Europeans who fomerly lived in the caves.
These first Caucasians probably left the caves bitter because they had lost their pigmentation--while many of the people they saw when they left the caves were pigmented=Blacks. The original home of the Caucasians was the Caucasus Mountains.
.
. They came from the caves after 2000BC
.
.
Blacks were familiar with white people because of the Albinos that lived among them. They probably felt that the new pink people migrating in their lands had skin color and hair like the Albinos among them, the white people were just an entire tribe of pink Albinos, instead of an entirely new race.
In Central Asia, the white people mated with Blacks and began a slow infiltration into Anatolia.First mention of these whites were as Gutian tribes , invading the Sumerian territory. The Hattis, allowed them in Anatolia,where they were able to imitate the black Empires.
Over time, the Gutians/whites were able to form an empire called the Hittite Empire. The Hittites like, the Gutians in Sumeria, adopted the language of the Hatti, and their culture. After 1200 BC, a coalition of white tribes began to move out of Anatolia into the Mediterranean attacking all the Blacklands. The Blacks were able to contain the whites, but they were allowed to settle in the Levant, and the Delta region of Egypt, and parts of Arabia. Over millenia mating with Blacks they probably co-created the Arab population.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The earliest evidence of the R haplogroup comes from Mal’ta Siberia. Here the Khoisan or Cro-Magnon people introduced the Mal'ta tradition. The Mal’ta tradition is known from a vast area spanning west of Lake Baikal and the Yenisey River. The site of Mal'ta is composed of a series of semi-subterranean houses made of large animal bones and huge numbers of reindeer antlers, (no doubt scavenged for hut construction after being shed by the reindeer).
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Twenty nine ivory female figures were found on the open site of Mal'ta. They differ from contemporary representations in Russia, Central and Western Europe in that they are shown clothed rather than nude, most have faces and the body shapes are straight or tapering below large, round heads. Some are also perforated to be worn as pendants.
.
However many are Steatopygic indicating Khoisan/Grimaldi ethnicity.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe.
.
. The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians carrying haplogroup R, probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.
. Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.
The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.The Mal'ta skeleton makes it clear these Europeans carried the R haplogroup.
In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair.
This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who lived in the caves.The drawings from the Grotte de Marche shows tha various facial changes that took place among the Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans.
Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000BC:
This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today. The pictures make it clear that the long chins and noses were a major feature of the Proto-Europeans.Check out information on Grotte de Marche at : http://pascal.lefalher.perso.neuf.fr/la_grotte_de_la_marche.htm
Europeans are not native to Europe except underground. Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become depigmented. There was an extensive network of caves that allowed the Proto-Europeans to communicate across Eurasia.
quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
Stone Age Tunnels are man created a massive network of underground tunnels crisecrossing Europe from Scotland to Turkey , a new book on the Ancient superhighways has claimed. German archaeologist, said evidence of the tunnels has been found hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. Seemingly never ending series of underground tunnels are confirmed to be man-made , and the architecture boggles even the most sophisticated designers.
German archaeologist Dr Heinrich Kusch said evidence of the tunnels has been found under hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. In his book - Secrets Of The Underground Door To An Ancient World (German title: Tore zur Unterwelt) - he says that the fact so many have survived after 12,000 years shows that the original tunnel network must have been enormous.
In his book, he notes that chapels were often built by the entrances perhaps because the Church were afraid of the heathen legacy the tunnels might have represented, and wanted to negate their influence.
Not for the claustrophobic: Most of the tunnels are just 70cm wide - just wide enough for a person to slowly wriggle through
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Granted the Aurignacian culture spread across Eurasia. The Europeans exited the caves in Central Asia--not western Eurasia. In Central Asia they probably hid in the mountains grew in numbers until they felt they were strong enough to attack the Blacks ruling the great cities of Eurasia and the Egyptian Delta, that were weakened after the tectonic chanes surrounding the Santorini volcanic eruption and other catatrophic events between 1700-1200 BC.
quote:
Santorini's volcanic activity during the past 2-500,000 years has been dominated by very large explosive eruptions at intervals of few tens of thousands of years. The most recent of this type occurred at around 1613 BC and is known as the so-called Minoan eruption. The late Bronze Age eruption, one of the biggest known volcanic explosions in younger time,- and one of the most studied, but still most mysterious eruptions of all time-, devastated not only Santorini, but had a deep impact on the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it even had serious world-wide effects and changed history. Still today, one can see its deposits, the characteristic, tens of meters thick layer of white pumice and ash that blankets most of the surface of the island group. The eruption changed the shape of the island itself dramatically: it is now believed that before the eruption, it had the shape of an almost complete ring that enclosed an earlier, shallower caldera. Then, large sections of island collapsed into the emptied magma chamber after the eruption, literally disappearing under the sea. The ring-island was breached to the W and NW, and the caldera was significantly widened and deepened.
The Minoan eruption devastated the rich, highly developed economic center, that Santorini was at that time. Since 1969, intense archaeological excavations have brought to light an important Cycladic/Minoan town which had been buried beneath the volcanic ash for almost 4000 years. Although it appears that people had time to evacuate their island in time before the eruption, carrying most of their goods with them, the findings from Akrotiri are impressive: especially, they include well-preserved and magnificent wall paintings, ceramics and other objects. Thanks to the work of numerous archaeologists, a new light was thrown on an important prehistoric period and culture. The spectacular discovery even induced continuing speculations that relate the volcanic destruction of Santorini to the legend of the sunken Atlantis.
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground, they did not interact with the Black Europeans. As a result, they cannot be considered Europeans because they were either unable, or afraid to exit the caves of western Eurasia.
Europeans do not expand out of Central Asia until after 1700 BC. By 1200 BC, Proto-Europeans were expanding into Egypt Delta, Eastern Eurpe and India by 1000BC. Many of these Proto-European whites probably carried their ancestral R haplogroup. The expansion of whites across Europe carrying their ancestral R gene after exiting the caves may explain the widespread frequency of this haplogroup in Europe today, if the whites did not acquire this haplogroup through mating with the Kushites..
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup (R-M173) to both Europe and Africa
The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains
R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago
Clyde your thread title makes no sense, you have my statement
This is not a statement. You claim that the R haplogroup was in Europe by12.5kya. Today it is carried mainly by whites in Europe. There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya, but we do know that the First Europeans who were Blacks did carry this gene before they entered the caves to escape the ice age, and evolved into the white race. As a result, since their were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya where did they acquire the R1 haplogroup if it was not from the Kushites? or were whites carrying the genes when they exited the caves 3.5kya?
You have not made your answer clear on this issue.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Mal'ta skeletal remains indicate that these first Europeans carried the R haplogroup.
Why would skeletal remains found in Mal'ta Siberia indicate something about the first Europeans?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Clyde there you go again claiming Whites are inferior, non-humans again. Once again Clyde a person needs AIR to breath, if a cave is shut off no fresh air can come in which means eventually cave will fill with carbon dioxide which means bye bye person stuck in there. Just like when a mine shaft collapses more often than not the miners die from lack of oxygen down there. Therefore there would be no humans left to come out you moron. Not to mention no food or water down there either. Sorry Clyde as much as you want to think that Whites are inferior, diseased non humans, with no history, no heritage, no homeland, no right to exist, no right to knowledge of self, no right to self determination, no right to any kind of racial pride its not so.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians carrying haplogroup R, probably sought sanctuary in their caves/temples.
. Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.
In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair.
This is evident when we look at the de-pigmented creatures who lived in the caves. The drawings from the Grotte de Marche shows tha various facial changes that took place among the Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become de-pigmented.
Clyde, what conditions of near to before 1400-1200 BC say in 2,000 BC were causing people to still be trapped in caves?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today.
So the blacks who originally went into the caves were not as human like as the people who were trapped in there for for a long time as depicted in these pictures?
Clyde if the pictures depict depigmented "white people" and they are 17ky how long did it take? How long before 17kya did it take for this formerly black people to turn into long nose, long chin depigmented white people as depicted on the walls of this French cave?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Granted the Aurignacian culture spread across Eurasia. The Europeans exited the caves in Central Asia--not western Eurasia. In Central Asia they probably hid in the mountains grew in numbers until they felt they were strong enough to attack the Blacks ruling the great cities of Eurasia and the Egyptian Delta, that were weakened after the tectonic chanes surrounding the Santorini volcanic eruption and other catatrophic events between 1700-1200 BC.
Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become depigmented.
So if this long nosed, long chinned depigmented white people exited the caves no earlier than 1400 BC and after having lived in total darkness for over 10,000 years and were probably blind or nearly so as a result. probably extremely lacking in fitness how did these people take over black civilization in Europe in such a short period of time much less survive? It seems miraculous
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground, they did not interact with the Black Europeans. As a result, they cannot be considered Europeans because they were either unable, or afraid to exit the caves of western Eurasia.
Again that makes no sense. If you live underground in Europe the fact you live underground doesn't mean you can't be European. - and you said the pygmies lived underground. So they don't get to be where they're from because they live underground??? Besides some parts of caves are on street level, not underground
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground,
So earlier you said they were trapped in the caves by ice. Now you say they choose to live underground. So when did they go from trapped to "self imposed imprisonment" ? And why do you call it imprisonment? What if they liked living underground like the pygmies? And if these tunnels were so extensive how do you know they weren't interacting with pygmies underground? Ot could it be possible that it was not "self imposed imprisonment" ? What if non-pygmy blacks in Europe forced these whites and pygmies to live underground? Maybe you haven't thought about this. Maybe Egmond was right, blacks wanted to use white skin to make shoes and clothing with - that explains why they might have been forced to live in the caves
Europeans are not native to Europe except underground.
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Clyde so between 17 kya and 1400 BC there should be skeletal remains of these people in the caves, right? What are some of the names of these ancient white skeletons?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians carrying haplogroup R, probably sought sanctuary in their caves/temples.
. Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.
In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair.
This is evident when we look at the de-pigmented creatures who lived in the caves. The drawings from the Grotte de Marche shows tha various facial changes that took place among the Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become de-pigmented.
Clyde, what conditions of near to before 1400-1200 BC say in 2,000 BC were causing people to still be trapped in caves?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today.
So the blacks who originally went into the caves were not as human like as the people who were trapped in there for for a long time as depicted in these pictures?
Clyde if the pictures depict depigmented "white people" and they are 17ky how long did it take? How long before 17kya did it take for this formerly black people to turn into long nose, long chin depigmented white people as depicted on the walls of this French cave?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Granted the Aurignacian culture spread across Eurasia. The Europeans exited the caves in Central Asia--not western Eurasia. In Central Asia they probably hid in the mountains grew in numbers until they felt they were strong enough to attack the Blacks ruling the great cities of Eurasia and the Egyptian Delta, that were weakened after the tectonic chanes surrounding the Santorini volcanic eruption and other catatrophic events between 1700-1200 BC.
Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become depigmented.
So if this long nosed, long chinned depigmented white people exited the caves no earlier than 1400 BC and after having lived in total darkness for over 10,000 years and were probably blind or nearly so as a result. probably extremely lacking in fitness how did these people take over black civilization in Europe in such a short period of time much less survive? It seems miraculous
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground, they did not interact with the Black Europeans. As a result, they cannot be considered Europeans because they were either unable, or afraid to exit the caves of western Eurasia.
Again that makes no sense. If you live underground in Europe the fact you live underground doesn't mean you can't be European. - and you said the pygmies lived underground. So they don't get to be where they're from because they live underground??? Besides some parts of caves are on street level, not underground
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground,
So earlier you said they were trapped in the caves by ice. Now you say they choose to live underground. So when did they go from trapped to "self imposed imprisonment" ? And why do you call it imprisonment? What if they liked living underground like the pygmies? And if these tunnels were so extensive how do you know they weren't interacting with pygmies underground? Ot could it be possible that it was not "self imposed imprisonment" ? What if non-pygmy blacks in Europe forced these whites and pygmies to live underground? Maybe you haven't thought about this. Maybe Egmond was right, blacks wanted to use white skin to make shoes and clothing with - that explains why they might have been forced to live in the caves
Europeans are not native to Europe except underground.
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.
Clyde so between 17 kya and 1400 BC there should be skeletal remains of these people in the caves, right? What are some of the names of these ancient white skeletons?
Not really. Europeans traditionally practiced cremation so there would be no skeletal remains of these people dating back to this period.
In fact, I don't think there are any known skeletons of Europeans, from ancient sites except for those dating to the Roman period in Egypt.I may be wrong . Can you think of any ancient skeletons of whites prior to the Roman period in Egypt? We also have the skeletons of the Central Asian mummies, and the Bog people but these skeletons are not ancient.
The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.
While the whites lived underground they were not interacting with humans on the surface so we can not consider them Eurasians.
You claim that the R haplogroup was in Europe by12.5kya. Today it is carried mainly by whites in Europe. There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya, but we do know that the First Europeans who were Blacks did carry this gene before they entered the caves to escape the ice age, and evolved into the white race. As a result, since their were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya where did they acquire the R1 haplogroup if it was not from the Kushites? or were whites carrying the genes when they exited the caves 3.5kya?
The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Today it is carried mainly by whites in Europe. There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya... their were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya
Clyde what you are saying makes no sense. You say 17,000 year old drawings in Europe depict pointy nosed, pointy chinned whites
Do you realize 17,000 years ago is earlier than 12,500 years ago?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Today it is carried mainly by whites in Europe. There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya... their were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya
Clyde what you are saying makes no sense. You say 17,000 year old drawings in Europe depict pointy nosed, pointy chinned whites
Do you realize 17,000 years ago is earlier than 12,500 years ago?
Yes but these people were undereground, no one knew they existed. They only traveled trough their caves. The people on the surface were Black.
quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
Stone Age Tunnels are man created a massive network of underground tunnels crisecrossing Europe from Scotland to Turkey , a new book on the Ancient superhighways has claimed. German archaeologist, said evidence of the tunnels has been found hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. Seemingly never ending series of underground tunnels are confirmed to be man-made , and the architecture boggles even the most sophisticated designers.
German archaeologist Dr Heinrich Kusch said evidence of the tunnels has been found under hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. In his book - Secrets Of The Underground Door To An Ancient World (German title: Tore zur Unterwelt) - he says that the fact so many have survived after 12,000 years shows that the original tunnel network must have been enormous.
In his book, he notes that chapels were often built by the entrances perhaps because the Church were afraid of the heathen legacy the tunnels might have represented, and wanted to negate their influence.
Not for the claustrophobic: Most of the tunnels are just 70cm wide - just wide enough for a person to slowly wriggle through
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Granted the Aurignacian culture spread across Eurasia. The Europeans exited the caves in Central Asia--not western Eurasia. In Central Asia they probably hid in the mountains grew in numbers until they felt they were strong enough to attack the Blacks ruling the great cities of Eurasia and the Egyptian Delta, that were weakened after the tectonic chanes surrounding the Santorini volcanic eruption and other catatrophic events between 1700-1200 BC.
quote:
Santorini's volcanic activity during the past 2-500,000 years has been dominated by very large explosive eruptions at intervals of few tens of thousands of years. The most recent of this type occurred at around 1613 BC and is known as the so-called Minoan eruption. The late Bronze Age eruption, one of the biggest known volcanic explosions in younger time,- and one of the most studied, but still most mysterious eruptions of all time-, devastated not only Santorini, but had a deep impact on the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it even had serious world-wide effects and changed history. Still today, one can see its deposits, the characteristic, tens of meters thick layer of white pumice and ash that blankets most of the surface of the island group. The eruption changed the shape of the island itself dramatically: it is now believed that before the eruption, it had the shape of an almost complete ring that enclosed an earlier, shallower caldera. Then, large sections of island collapsed into the emptied magma chamber after the eruption, literally disappearing under the sea. The ring-island was breached to the W and NW, and the caldera was significantly widened and deepened.
The Minoan eruption devastated the rich, highly developed economic center, that Santorini was at that time. Since 1969, intense archaeological excavations have brought to light an important Cycladic/Minoan town which had been buried beneath the volcanic ash for almost 4000 years. Although it appears that people had time to evacuate their island in time before the eruption, carrying most of their goods with them, the findings from Akrotiri are impressive: especially, they include well-preserved and magnificent wall paintings, ceramics and other objects. Thanks to the work of numerous archaeologists, a new light was thrown on an important prehistoric period and culture. The spectacular discovery even induced continuing speculations that relate the volcanic destruction of Santorini to the legend of the sunken Atlantis.
Since the Proto-Europeans in western Eurasia, like those living at Grotte de Marche remaind in their self imposed imprisonment underground, they did not interact with the Black Europeans. As a result, they cannot be considered Europeans because they were either unable, or afraid to exit the caves of western Eurasia.
Europeans do not expand out of Central Asia until after 1700 BC. By 1200 BC, Proto-Europeans were expanding into Egypt Delta, Eastern Eurpe and India by 1000BC. Many of these Proto-European whites probably carried their ancestral R haplogroup. The expansion of whites across Europe carrying their ancestral R gene after exiting the caves may explain the widespread frequency of this haplogroup in Europe today, if the whites did not acquire this haplogroup through mating with the Kushites.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya...
there were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya
You say 17,000 year old drawings in Europe depict pointy nosed, pointy chinned whites
So you have answered your own question, there were indeed whites in living in Europe far prior to 3.5kya . They were in living in caves in Europe 13,500 years earlier than 3.5kya ( 17 kya) and they are direct descendants of Khosians who went into the caves and became trapped there.
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Clyde there you go again claiming Whites are inferior, non-humans again. Once again Clyde a person needs AIR to breath, if a cave is shut off no fresh air can come in which means eventually cave will fill with carbon dioxide which means bye bye person stuck in there. Just like when a mine shaft collapses more often than not the miners die from lack of oxygen down there. Therefore there would be no humans left to come out you moron, oh wait you claim Whites aren't human don't you. Not to mention no food or water down there either. Sorry Clyde as much as you want to think that Whites are inferior, diseased non humans, with no history, no heritage, no homeland, no right to exist, no right to knowledge of self, no right to self determination, no right to any kind of racial pride its not so. Whites did NOT come from Central Asia and you have no proof we did. No such thing as a Black European sorry Clyde. You built no cities in Europe, all of Europe was built by us you White people hating slob.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: No such thing as a Black European sorry Clyde. You built no cities in Europe, all of Europe was built by us.
Well you certainly went to a lot of trouble to convince the world of that. To bad for you that it was all a lie.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: No such thing as a Black European sorry Clyde. You built no cities in Europe, all of Europe was built by us.
Well you certainly went to a lot of trouble to convince the world of that. To bad for you that it was all a lie.
Example: FAKE PAINTINGS!
Danaus, or Danaos ("sleeper"): In Greek mythology he was the twin brother of Aegyptus and son of Achiroe and Belus, (mythical king and Queen of Egypt). The myth of Danaus is a foundation legend of Argos, one of the foremost Mycenaean cities of the Peloponnesus. (Mycenae had been earlier built at about 1,500 B.C, by Cretens and Egypt). Thus this myth serves as a good example of how the early Greeks used myth to explain their current circumstance. The Myth
The Egyptian Prince Danaus had fifty daughters, the Danaides, twelve of whom were born to Polyxo and rest to Pieria and other women, and his twin brother, Aegyptus, had fifty sons. Aegyptus commanded that his sons marry the Danaides. But Danaus elected to flee Egypt instead, and to that purpose, he built a ship, the first ship that ever was.
In it, he fled to Argos, to which he was connected by his descent from Io, the maiden wooed by Zeus and turned into a heifer and pursued by Hera until she found asylum in Egypt. Argos at the time was ruled by King Pelasgus, the eponym of all the Black inhabitants who had lived in Greece since the beginning of time, also called Gelanor (he who laughs). The Danaides asked Pelasgus for protection when they arrived, (the event is portrayed in The Suppliants by Aeschylus). Protection was granted after a vote by the Argives.
The writer Pausanias was a native of Lydia in Anatolia. He was a traveller and geographer of the 2nd century A.D, who lived in the times of Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. He is famous for his Description of Greece, a lengthy work that describes ancient Greece from firsthand observations, and is a crucial link between classical literature and modern archaeology. As a Greek writing under the auspices of the Roman empire, he found himself in an awkward cultural space, between the glories of the Greek past he was so keen to describe and the realities of a Greece beholden to Rome as a dominating imperial force. His work bears the marks of his attempt to navigate that space and establish an identity for Roman Greece.
When Pausanias visited Argos in the 2nd century A.D, he related their version of the succession of Danaus to the throne thusly: "judged by the Argives (Argos citizens), who "from the earliest times... have loved freedom and self-government, and they limited to the utmost the authority of their kings:"
"On coming to Argos Danaus claimed the kingdom against Gelanor, the son of Sthenelas. Many plausible arguments were brought forward by both parties, and those of Sthenelas were considered as fair as those of his opponent; so the people, who were sitting in judgment, put off, they say, the decision to the following day. At dawn a wolf fell upon a herd of oxen that was pasturing before the wall, and attacked and fought with the bull that was the leader of the herd. It occurred to the Argives that Gelanor was like the bull and Danaus like the wolf, for as the wolf will not live with men, so Danaus up to that time had not lived with them. It was because the wolf overcame the bull that Danaus won the kingdom. Accordingly, believing that Apollo had brought the wolf on the herd, he founded a sanctuary of Apollo Lycius."
When Aegyptus and his fifty sons arrived to take the Danaides, Danaus gave them, to spare the Argives the pain of a battle. However, he instructed his daughters to kill their husbands on their wedding night. Forty-nine followed through: "they buried the heads of their bridegrooms in Lerna; but one, Hypermnestra (or Amymone, the "blameless" Danaid) refused because her husband, Lynceus, honored her wish to remain a virgin. Danaus was angry with his disobedient daughter and threw her to the Argive courts. Aphrodite intervened and saved her. Lynceus and Hypermnestra then began a dynasty of Argive kings (the Danaan Dynasty).
The remaining forty-nine Danaides had their grooms chosen by a common mythic competition: a foot-race was held and the order in which the potential Argive grooms finished decided their brides (compare the myth of Atalanta).
In some versions, Lynceus later killed Danaus as revenge for the death of his brothers.
Also in some versions, the Danaides were punished in Tartarus (Tartarus is both a deity and a place in the underworld even lower than Hades), by being forced to carry water in a jug to fill a bath and thereby wash off their sins, but the jugs were actually sieves, so the water always leaked out (see below).
Even a cautious reading of the subtext as a vehicle for legendary history suggests that a Pelasgian kingship in archaic Argos was overcome, not without violence, by seafarers out of Egypt (compare the Sea Peoples who "left" Europe), whose leaders then intermarried with the local dynasty. The descendants of Danaus' "blameless" daughter Hypermnestra, through Danaë, led to Perseus, founder of Mycenae, thus suggesting that Argos had a claim to be the "mother city" of Mycenae.
In Homer's Iliad, "Danaans" ("tribe of Danaus") and "Argives" commonly designate the Greek forces opposed to the Trojans. (Troy was the Greek name for the Hattie city of Wilusa, on the northern coast of Anatolia).
You will note that the ancient Greeks; attributed no part of the building of the Mycenaean civilization to themselves; but rather, truthfully and correctly to Egyptians and Pelasgusians, (Please try to find a White textbook that does the same). How different Whites are in modern times: Now they are so "full of themselves" that the lie comes easily and unabashedly. Note the depiction of the Tartarus version of the myth by John William Waterhouse (1903); in his painting "Danaides". To people like him, if they were Great, they MUST have been White! If not, he will MAKE them White.
To really appreciate the absurdity of John Waterhouse's painting, please note this passage from Aeschylus play, "The Suppliants".
The Suppliants
By Aeschylus
Written ca. 463 B.C.E
Translated by E. D. A. Morshead
From the classics@MIT
Scene
A sacred precinct near the shore in Argos. Several statues of the gods can be seen, as well as a large altar. As the play opens, DANAUS, and his fifty daughters, the maidens who compose the CHORUS, enter. Their costumes have an oriental richness about them not characteristic of the strictly Greek. They carry also the wands of suppliants. The CHORUS is singing.
strophe 8
Yet if this may not be, We, the dark race sun-smitten, we Will speed with suppliant wands To Zeus who rules below, with hospitable hands Who welcomes all the dead from all the lands: Yea, by our own hands strangled, we will go, Spurned by Olympian gods, unto the gods below!
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The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans. Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000 BC:
The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There were no whites in Europe 12.5kya...
there were no whites in Europe until after 3.5kya
You say 17,000 year old drawings in Europe depict pointy nosed, pointy chinned whites
So you have answered your own question, there were indeed whites in living in Europe far prior to 3.5kya . They were in living in caves in Europe 13,500 years earlier than 3.5kya ( 17 kya) and they are direct descendants of Khosians who went into the caves and became trapped there.
I did not ask you if whites were in Europe 3.5kya I asked you how do we account for the presence of haplogroup R1 in high frequencies among European whites.
You still have not answered my question. Do whites carry R1 because they probably mated with the Kushites when they exited the caves, or was this haplogroup already present among them when they exited the caves 4-3,5kya due to their Khoisan origin?
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mike, sorry White child hating Black racist, Black supremacist. Whites are NOT Albinos nor are we Central Asians. Sorry just because you get your jollies off of harming White children Mike doesn't make it true.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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I did not ask you if whites were in Europe 3.5kya I asked you how do we account for the presence of haplogroup R1 in high frequencies among European whites.
You still have not answered my question. Do whites carry R1 because they probably mated with the Kushites when they exited the caves, or was this haplogroup already present among them when they exited the caves 4-3,5kya due to their Khoisan origin?
I don't know, nobody is certain They say modern Europeans derive from the first hunter gatherers and the Near Eastern farmers who came later and finally, perhaps the largest part, from the Yamna culture aka the Pit Grave culture. Generally considered by linguists as the homeland of the Proto-Indo-European language they originated in the European part of Southern Russia bewteen the Black and Caspian seas. (3300-2700 BCE) They then migrated into Central/Western Europe Some of their Y DNA is R1b1a2 aka M269 That is not the prominent type in West Central Africa which is V88 aka R1b1c (5.5-9.5 kya) There is some M269 in Africa but it is at lower frequencies Not like Europe where many countries carry high and very high frequencies. So where did the Yamna culture get their R1b? That goes back to 18.5 kya I don't know maybe Anatolia, the Caucus, India, Siberia.
The Bashkirs of the Perm Region a Turkic people indigenous to Bashkortostan, extending on both sides of the Ural Mountains, on the place where Europe meets Asia. They carry M269 at 84% Wales 92% Spain 68% Ireland 70-95% many more
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I did not ask you if whites were in Europe 3.5kya I asked you how do we account for the presence of haplogroup R1 in high frequencies among European whites.
You still have not answered my question. Do whites carry R1 because they probably mated with the Kushites when they exited the caves, or was this haplogroup already present among them when they exited the caves 4-3,5kya due to their Khoisan origin?
I don't know, nobody is certain They say modern Europeans derive from the first hunter gatherers and the Near Eastern farmers who came later and finally, perhaps the largest part, from the Yamna culture aka the Pit Grave culture. Generally considered by linguists as the homeland of the Proto-Indo-European language they originated in the European part of Southern Russia bewteen the Black and Caspian seas. (3300-2700 BCE) They then migrated into Central/Western Europe Some of their Y DNA is R1b1a2 aka M269 That is not the prominent type in West Central Africa which is V88 aka R1b1c (5.5-9.5 kya) There is some M269 in Africa but it is at lower frequencies Not like Europe where many countries carry high and very high frequencies. So where did the Yamna culture get their R1b? That goes back to 18.5 kya I don't know maybe Anatolia, the Caucus, India, Siberia.
The Bashkirs of the Perm Region a Turkic people indigenous to Bashkortostan, extending on both sides of the Ural Mountains, on the place where Europe meets Asia. They carry M269 at 84% Wales 92% Spain 68% Ireland 70-95% many more
Yawn, it's amusing the time and effort you spend trying to proof you're right. But the seven mutations got you cornered.
quote: The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].
quote: Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.
Haplogroup DE* in Guinea-Bissau:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
quote: There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.
Haplogroup DE* in Nigerians:
Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans: Lessons for Phylogeography
All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].
In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.
Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)
Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (2011)
quote:"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."
Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations
--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Mankind originated in Africa. Africans spread to the rest of the world including Central Asia.
After 2000 BC there was a series of earthquacks and volcanic eruptions in Eurasia. As a result, the Proto-Europeans were able to leave their subterranean cave habitat in the Caucasus mountains, for the surface world.West of the Caspian Sea lies the Caucasus, a mountainous region that comprises of southeastern Russia (Northern Caucasus), Armenia, Azerbaijan (including disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region) and Georgia (South Caucasus).Europe was primarially settled by Blacks so the Proto-Europeans settled in Central Asia.They did not want to remain the mountains from which they had emerged.
The first mention of whites place them in Central Asia.Central Asia, also sometimes known as Middle Asia or Inner Asia, is a region in Asia east of the Caspian Sea, west of China, north of Afghanistan, and south of Russia. This would make whites indigenous to Central Asia.
The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe. here they congregated and used them like temples.
The Mal'ta skeletal remains indicate that these first Europeans carried the R haplogroup.
. In the caves these Blacks recorded their history and worshiped their gods.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.
. Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.
The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.
In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair. This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who live in the caves.
.
As you can see living in caves can cause the lost of melanin in the skin.After the tectonic events of 2000 BC the entrances of the caves opened in the Caucasus.
The original Black Europeans had turned into the people we call Europeans today.
The first Caucasians had lived in the caves for thousands of years. In this isolated undergroud homeland of whites, they mainly carried the R haplogroup introduced to Europe by their Khoisan ancestors.
During this time they probably treated each other badly.
Given the lack of life in the caves these first caucasians probably ate each other and suffered many bad things.
It is clear that the melanin in Europeans goes only into their hair. The only explanation for the appearance of whites, and stability of the lack of melanin among Europeans can only be explained by an extended period of time proto-Europeans living in the cave.
This would explain the varied type of Europeans who fomerly lived in the caves.
These first Caucasians probably left the caves bitter because they had lost their pigmentation--while many of the people they saw when they left the caves were pigmented=Blacks. The original home of the Caucasians was the Caucasus Mountains.
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. They came from the caves after 2000BC
.
.
Blacks were familiar with white people because of the Albinos that lived among them. They probably felt that the new pink people migrating in their lands had skin color and hair like the Albinos among them, the white people were just an entire tribe of pink Albinos, instead of an entirely new race.
In Central Asia, the white people mated with Blacks and began a slow infiltration into Anatolia.First mention of these whites were as Gutian tribes , invading the Sumerian territory. The Hattis, allowed them in Anatolia,where they were able to imitate the black Empires.
Over time, the Gutians/whites were able to form an empire called the Hittite Empire. The Hittites like, the Gutians in Sumeria, adopted the language of the Hatti, and their culture. After 1200 BC, a coalition of white tribes began to move out of Anatolia into the Mediterranean attacking all the Blacklands. The Blacks were able to contain the whites, but they were allowed to settle in the Levant, and the Delta region of Egypt, and parts of Arabia. Over millenia mating with Blacks they probably co-created the Arab population.
This whole idea is silly. I’m surprised no one has mentioned the obvious practical problems.
1) Since the selective factors for loss of melanin are weak, to get albinism and sightlessness a stay of many thousands of years (more than 10 or 20 thousand) in complete darkness is required. You can’t go in and out of the darkness. A number of questions arise:
a) At the time, humans were hunter gatherers, what did people eat while they were in total darkness in caves? What kind of plants grew in total darkness? Which edible animals lived in caves
b) Where would these humans find enough water to drink.
c) Where would humans dispose of fecal waste for thousands of years, without making these caves unfit for habitation?
d) In answering a question about absence of skeletons, Clyde wrote that they were cremated. a) where did they get the wood for cremation? b) If they had fires, this would violate the total darkness needed for the maintenance of adaptation for albinism.
e) Since they lived in total darkness how would these people make the drawings posted by Clyde as evidence of how these “white” humans looked;?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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f) Clyde Winters says "Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves" yet while there is evidence of people going into caves and making drawings there is no evidence of them being trapped in the caves. That is entrirely made by Dr. Winters
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?
The Mal'ta boy was Khoisan. His ancestors were the first anatomically modern humans.
quote: “The genetic profile of the Paleoamericans, fails to correspond to that of contemporary Native Americans in the United States. Interestingly, the North American Paleoamerican DNA profile matches minor haplogroups predominately found in South America (Balter, 2015). Much of the DNA for Luzia the 12,000 year old skeleton from Brazil is corrupted, but researchers have recovered aDNA from Naia (Chatters et al., 2014) of Mexico, and the Anzick boy (Balter, 2015; Estes, 2015). The Anzick boy skeleton was found in Montana. This Paleoamerican belonged to the Clovis Culture, the same as Kennewick Man (Chatters, 1999; Chatters et al., 2014). The Anzick boy belonged to mtDNA M or D1, and y-chromosome R1 (Estes, 2015). Scientists have also recovered the DNA fromNaia (Chatters et al., 2014; Kumar, 2014). Naia belonged to haplogroup D1, which is a descendant of the M haplogroup (Chatters et al., 2014).
Researchers have also recovered the aDNA of the ancient Europeans (Balter, 2015). The TMRCA of the paleoamericans were the Khoisan people. The Khoisan was the Cro-Magnon people of Europe (Winters, 2008, 2011). They were the first amh to enter western Eurasia (Winters, 2011). The Khoisan introduced haplogroup M to western Eurasia (Winters, 2011, 2014).
The first Europeans like the paleoamericans were dark skinned (Winters, 2014). The aDNA of the first Europeans comes from the Ust’Ishim skeleton from Siberia (Blater, 2015). Ust’Ishim man carried the male lineage R1 (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The mtDNA of Ust’Ishim belonged to haplogroup U (Balter, 2015). The R1 haplogroup was also carried by the Mal’ta boy in Western Eurasia (Blater, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The Mal’ta boy also belonged to mtDNA haplogroup U (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The U haplogroup was part of the M macrohaplogroup. The Khoisan carry haplogroupsL3(M, N).
Prior to the Khoisan crossing the Straits of Gibraltar to reach Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa (Winters, 2014). The basal L3(M) motif in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10,394 and Alul site np 10,397 which is associated with AF-24, a haplotype of haplogroup LOd (Winters, 2010). Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al., (2006), provides an early date for, L3(M, N) 94.3kya. The South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1, L2, L3 M, N dates to 142.3 kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M, N, dates to 96.7 kya (Gonder et al., 2006).
The origin dates for L1, L2, L3(M, N) make the haplogroups old enough for the Khoisan to have taken haplogroup M to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia (Winters, 2011). It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans (Winters, 2011). This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa. The major M haplogroup in Africa is M1(Winters, 2010). The M1 macrohaplogroup is found throughout Africa and Asia. But the basal M1 lineage has not been found outside Africa (Sun et al., 2006). However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, M1 markers have been found in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D, the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al., 2001; Yao et al., 2002). These transitions are recurrent in M1 and D4 (Gondor et al., 2006; Winters, 2010).”
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The problem with arguing with storytellers is that their fictions are as real to them as their facts, and they weave their tales with hot air which is practically infinite.
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: This whole idea is silly. I’m surprised no one has mentioned the obvious practical problems.
1) Since the selective factors for loss of melanin are weak, to get albinism and sightlessness a stay of many thousands of years (more than 10 or 20 thousand) in complete darkness is required. You can’t go in and out of the darkness. A number of questions arise:
a) At the time, humans were hunter gatherers, what did people eat while they were in total darkness in caves? What kind of plants grew in total darkness? Which edible animals lived in caves
b) Where would these humans find enough water to drink.
c) Where would humans dispose of fecal waste for thousands of years, without making these caves unfit for habitation?
d) In answering a question about absence of skeletons, Clyde wrote that they were cremated. a) where did they get the wood for cremation? b) If they had fires, this would violate the total darkness needed for the maintenance of adaptation for albinism.
e) Since they lived in total darkness how would these people make the drawings posted by Clyde as evidence of how these “white” humans looked;?
I see that these basic questions have been ignored. You really can't go on making declarative statements about the origin of whites in caves without even answering these foundational questions.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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lol, I don't think you will get any credible answers soon on the above from the "albino" brigade.. Pause... wait for "Celtic Warrioress" to spam her usual boilerplate "in response"..
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Clyde you've got to do something. He's got this question list going and some people may be doubting your theory if this is addressed.
Maybe you are trying to let go of this cave theory because it contradicts Mike's teachings?
Anyway the question that comes before all these other questions is> where is evidence of people being trapped in the caves? as opposed to going in and out of them freely, please wrap this up
Clyde you need to retract this trapped in caves theory it goes against Mike and we need unity
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Zarahan, What is wrong with me calling you White people hating, Black supremacists out for what you are?? Let's hear your theory about the origins of Whites. Let's see if its any different from Mike's & Clyde's.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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There is the very plausible possibility that the Africans who became trapped in the caves consisted of members who were already mutated with OCA. In fact, OCA inflicted Africans would have the strongest motive for Migrating from the African heat to the cooler Asian/European climate. This move alone would serve to extend the life span of African albinos from 30-40 years to something greater. Interbreeding between these OCA African albinos with non-oca albinos and incest could have possibly led to the extreme fixed albinism condition we see today in "whites".
Caves, especially a vast cave network as exists throughout Europe would have animal life as well as water. Perhaps the expansion of these well documented caves was actually due to expanding food/water sources.
There are also sources which mention that these cave dwellers were cannibalistic. Bones could have been used as tools.
-------------------- Selenium gives real life and true reality Posts: 4693 | From: Saturn | Registered: Apr 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: There is the very plausible possibility that the Africans who became trapped in the caves
why are you saying people became trapped in caves? Where did you get that from? It's 100% fabrication
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: There is the very plausible possibility that the Africans who became trapped in the caves
why are you saying people became trapped in caves? Where did you get that from? It's 100% fabrication
Why do you deny the obvious, or do you still maintain "whites" became albinos due to need for Vitamin D? So, how many hundreds or thousands of years can we expect African Americans to become white?
Posts: 4693 | From: Saturn | Registered: Apr 2012
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Zarahan, What is wrong with me calling you White people hating, Black supremacists out for what you are?? Let's hear your theory about the origins of Whites. Let's see if its any different from Mike's & Clyde's.
I see you are right on cue, "Ralph"...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: There is the very plausible possibility that the Africans who became trapped in the caves consisted of members who were already mutated with OCA. In fact, OCA inflicted Africans would have the strongest motive for Migrating from the African heat to the cooler Asian/European climate. This move alone would serve to extend the life span of African albinos from 30-40 years to something greater. Interbreeding between these OCA African albinos with non-oca albinos and incest could have possibly led to the extreme fixed albinism condition we see today in "whites".
Caves, especially a vast cave network as exists throughout Europe would have animal life as well as water. Perhaps the expansion of these well documented caves was actually due to expanding food/water sources.
There are also sources which mention that these cave dwellers were cannibalistic. Bones could have been used as tools.
1) Remember one has to look at the context. At the presumed time when "Africans went into the caves" humans were hunters-and-gatherers. No domesticated plants or animals. Plants need sunshine to grow and absolutely dark caves are not the place to grow. Which wild animals would be available in caves in sufficient numbers to feed a sizable human population. What would these animals eat? Why would these animals not become albinos and blind themselves?
Where are the bones of all these inhabitants in the caves? Winters said that they were not there because they were cremated. Two Problems during cremation there is light so push for albinism not in effect and 2) where did all tho wood come from inside a cave?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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cLyde has answered this in the past: Water from cave streams Food: cave shrimp, algae and bats perhaps also The amazing thing is that after 10,000 + years these blind people who got little exercise then came out and conquered Europe
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: cLyde has answered this in the past: Water from cave streams Food: cave shrimp, algae and bats perhaps also The amazing thing is that after 10,000 + years these blind people who got little exercise then came out and conquered Europe
The all died from scurvy since no Vitamin C available. Is this diet adequate in essential amino acids, minerals, and balance? How big a population can you raise on bats and cave shrimp (actually a better source would be albino fish); green algae require chlorophyl and therefore sun. Still in question how about the risks of infection and unpleasantness from all the body waste generated by these people over thousands of years?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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In the same way albinos are ostrasized today prehistoric blacks imprisioned albinos in caves. The place was run like a prison, food was brought in and refuse and dead bodies were brought out. Like Narmertoth speculated, they were albinos before going in. After thousands of years of being forced to live in the caves they finally escaped and took revenge
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Zarahan, What is wrong with me calling you White people hating, Black supremacists out for what you are?? Let's hear your theory about the origins of Whites. Let's see if its any different from Mike's & Clyde's.
Why don't you tell the origin of the Paleo Caucasian, for a change.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Look, here's what is actually plausible.
In the same way albinos are ostrasized today prehistoric blacks imprisioned albinos in caves. The place was run like a prison, food was brought in and refuse and dead bodies were brought out. Like Narmertoth speculated, they were albinos before going in. After thousands of years of being forced to live in the caves they finally escaped and took revenge
So, Whiteness is not caused by environmental adoption to low UV Europe/Asia?
Posts: 4693 | From: Saturn | Registered: Apr 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Look, here's what is actually plausible.
In the same way albinos are ostrasized today prehistoric blacks imprisioned albinos in caves. The place was run like a prison, food was brought in and refuse and dead bodies were brought out. Like Narmertoth speculated, they were albinos before going in. After thousands of years of being forced to live in the caves they finally escaped and took revenge
So, Whiteness is not caused by environmental adoption to low UV Europe/Asia?
Only if one is forced by the erroneous premise that they lived in caves for thousnds of years and never came out
Why aren't these Koreans are dark as these Nigerians? Because Korea doesn't have the high UV of Korea, So with the environmental constraint of high UV lessened the evolutionary selection process no longer results in higher melanin levels. If an animal has a trait that is an advantange in one environment and then they migrate to another environment where it is not an advantage, they may lose that trait over many thousands of years. Thus African Americans in Northern states would become white eventually
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ it took thousands of years. Not a few years.
quote:Between 18,000 and 15,000 years ago, large amounts of ice and meltwater entered the North Atlantic during Heinrich Stadial 1. This caused substantial regional cooling, but major climatic impacts also occurred in the tropics. Here, we demonstrate that the height of this stadial, about 17,000 to 16,000 years ago (Heinrich Event 1), coincided with one of the most extreme and widespread megadroughts of the last 50,000 years or more in the Afro-Asian monsoon region, with potentially serious consequences for Paleolithic cultures. Late Quaternary tropical drying commonly is attributed to southward drift of the Intertropical Convergence Zone, but the broad geographic range of the H1 Megadrought suggests that severe, systemic weakening of Afro-Asian rainfall systems also occurred, probably in response to sea surface cooling.
Bedbug book Infested says bedbugs on humans started at north Africa/Canaan coast 100s of 1000s of years ago from cave bat parasites, author claims ancient humans began staying in caves there so the bugs changed form from clinging on bats on cave ceilings to sleeping humans on cave floor (bugs became less furry, longer legs, larger mouth for larger human red blood cells), these bugs didn't emigrate to other regions in Europe (eg. Germany) or China until much later ~ 15th century.
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Given the lack of life in the caves these first caucasians probably ate each other and suffered many bad things.
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