quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Oh my. You all really do think that the Sumerians were Black.
I think you do go too far. Though I have seen some artifacts that tend to suggest a Black presence but not a Black domination.
It's the Elamites who were black numbskull. That's clear to anyone on at least a form 2 reading level.
Takruri is correct. Also, I hope you are aware that just as the Sumerians' adjacent eastern neighbors, the Elamites were black it is really no surprise or unlikely hood that some Sumerians were black also like their predecessors the Ubaidians who were the indigenous people of Mesopotamia!
To say that some Summerians are Black is to repeat what I said. To call them Black people is ridiculous.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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^ The Elamites who were the indigenous people of Iran and the eastern neighbors of the Sumerians were black as can be seen in Persian painted depictions, why is it so hard to believe that blacks were also indigenous to the Mesopotamian valley itself. The anthropological data seems to support this with remains exhibiting "negroid" or "Australoid" features. The people and culture preceeding Sumerian civilization by the way is known as Ubaidian named after the first site in modern day al-Ubaid. Sumerians proper were immigrants to Mesopotamia and this can be further supported by non-Sumerian elements in Cuinieform script itself.
How would you describe the Sumerian people as a whole then once established in the Tigris-Euphrates valley?? What do you make of one of the Sumerians' self epithets Sag-gig meaning 'black heads'??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The Elamites who were the indigenous people of Iran and the eastern neighbors of the Sumerians were black as can be seen in Persian painted depictions, why is it so hard to believe that blacks were also indigenous to the Mesopotamian valley itself. The anthropological data seems to support this with remains exhibiting "negroid" or "Australoid" features. The people and culture preceeding Sumerian civilization by the way is known as Ubaidian named after the first site in modern day al-Ubaid. Sumerians proper were immigrants to Mesopotamia and this can be further supported by non-Sumerian elements in Cuinieform script itself.
How would you describe the Sumerian people as a whole then once established in the Tigris-Euphrates valley?? What do you make of one of the Sumerians' self epithets Sag-gig meaning 'black heads'??
You are right there had always been Blacks in this area. The Sumerians and Elamites, on the otherhand made it clear they were Kushites who riginated in Africa.
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They made this clear where? In what texts? What exactly is the archaeological evidence that these people migrated from Africa? We've already seen your so-called linguistic evidence which is worth no more than kitty litter.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Can you present evidence to the contrary? In my opinion stone speaks many octaves louder than some random rendering youve submitted to us as evidence. Should one honestly be swayed by a contemporary artists portrayal of the Persian type or should we instead consider how the Persians depicted themselves!? This is the thing I despise about establishment academia, the shared intellectual backwardness of selective objectivity! Is the rot so deep one cannot admit that in the least there is some validity to such claims based on proximity to known black civilizations, linguistic and cultural similarities, not to mention the curious way in which Persions sometimes chose to represent their physical features? This question is a long way from being decided on one side or the other but to discount the question as wild speculation will serve only to discredit any claim you may have as an adherent to scientific method. In the Anacalypsis, Godfref Higgins stated that the most ancient inhabitants of every advanced civilization investigated were of the race of black men. These sentiments are further echoed by Massey, Volney, and Dupuis,to name a few. In Weston Prices Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, what is striking is the appearance of the african phenotype in the so-called aborigional populations around the world at a very high percentage. Most people are faintly aware that the islands of the carribean are peopled predominanlty by black races and accept this as a matter of the slave trade. But according to my research still yet underway, the number of blacks in the Americas and surrounding islands cannot be accounted for by the slave trade. The technological means to move the amount of slaves required to explain todays population figures did not exist in Europe at that time. The point of my rant being that remnants of the african type have long been known to occupy large swaths of the globe and have left their signature, as have the Olmecs, for a testimony. This capaign to isolate the race of blacks to a particular geography to the exclusion of all others, a Pavlovian response to any idea put forth that would uncover the falsehood of the "chosen race" ideology; these outmoded ways of framing the debate are no longer valid. Also Im annoyed by the current trend towards the absence of race, attempting to erase the lines of distinction incrementally. There exist very definite genetic destinctions between black and white right down to the molecular level, and i'm convinced the differences are on a metephysical level so far as our thought paterns differ. So when you claim Sun exposure is the sole determinant of the black phenotype, I question whether your participation here is intellectual or in promotion of some idiology.
-------------------- rhuti Posts: 1 | From: na | Registered: Feb 2010
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The Classical writers said the Elamites were Kushites.
I believe the Kushites introduced Eb3 to Eurasia. Luis, et. al argue that the presence of Egyptian lineage (E3b1-M78)(c.7.8kya) is consistent with northbound migrations of this haplotype - thru the levant - reflected in M78 males as far north as Turkey (c.4.8kya) .In Asia the Kushites were called Kushiya.
The date 4.8ky is very interesting. It is around this time that we find the rise of a number of Kushite tribes in the region: the Kassites, the Kaska and the Hattian tribes in Anatolia. It was probably these Kushite tribes that introduced the second wave of Eb3b1-M78 lineages into Turkey.
For example, the Elamites called themselves KHATAM, and their capital Susa:KUSSI. In addition, the Kassites, who occupied the central part of the Zagros mountains were called KASHSHU. The Kushana, formerly occupied Chinese Turkistan (Xinjiang) and the Gansu province of China.
The Kushites in Asia, as in Africa were known for their skill as bowmen :Steu , the name of the people of Ta-Seti.
The decipherer of the cuneiform writing of Mesopotamia, Rawlingson, said Puntites and Kushites were established in Asia. He found mention of Kushiya and Puntiya in the inscriptions of Darius. He also made it clear that the name Kush was also applied to southern Persia, India, Elam, Arabia, and Colchis (a part of southern Russia/Turkistan) in ancient times.
The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers Kush. Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".
The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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There were actually several types and ethnicities of "black" people occupying Iran in ancient times as there are today. They are as follows: Descendants of large wide nosed Ubaid people, the Tamani or small Dravidic people, Ichyophagii or Makrani (meaning fish-eaters Mahi Koran), Daae or Al Da'a or Madai who claimed descent from the Arabian Dahakk and Akk (who were the first to be called Da'asyas in Vedic tradition), the small Khassi or Shihu Khassab people now called Shihu or Shuwahiyyen, and finally "black Zutti" or Jats related to the Mahra or Kamar and Amlukh probably originally called "Mlechhas" in Indic tradition.
The people that brought the name of Persia (Fars, Parsaya or Faras) to Iran were the Da'a or Dahakk a remnant of the 'Hyksos" people called Amalekites in Arabian tradition.
The name Persia is supposed to be related to the name of the ancient legendary Iranian hero Fairuz and to the name of the Greek mythological Persus and Perseus, descendant of Danaus and Epaphus.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Clyde Winters is on point! The real facts point. And keep mind the people telling the story are the losers so you can't believe their depiction of the people who defeated them. Great! Facts! I love it!
Posts: 5 | From: America | Registered: Feb 2010
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Were there dark-skinned Iranians? Of course there were, as you can see from the Persian depictions of Elamites. But were ethnic Persians themselves that dark-skinned? No. In fact, I think they were what we would call "white", at least in skin tone. One ancient Greek author, Xenophon, describes them as being lighter-skinned than the Greeks, which is quite telling since the Greeks were Europeans. Whether the Persians had other white characteristics, such as fair hair and light-colored eyes, I don't know.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Were there dark-skinned Iranians? Of course there were, as you can see from the Persian depictions of Elamites. But were ethnic Persians themselves that dark-skinned? No. In fact, I think they were what we would call "white", at least in skin tone. One ancient Greek author, Xenophon, describes them as being lighter-skinned than the Greeks, which is quite telling since the Greeks were Europeans. Whether the Persians had other white characteristics, such as fair hair and light-colored eyes, I don't know.
That would definitely be proof enough that the "ethnic Persians" were white if that were so. Please cite the source.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Were there dark-skinned Iranians? Of course there were, as you can see from the Persian depictions of Elamites. But were ethnic Persians themselves that dark-skinned? No. In fact, I think they were what we would call "white", at least in skin tone. One ancient Greek author, Xenophon, describes them as being lighter-skinned than the Greeks, which is quite telling since the Greeks were Europeans. Whether the Persians had other white characteristics, such as fair hair and light-colored eyes, I don't know.
That would definitely be proof enough that the "ethnic Persians" were white if that were so. Please cite the source.
You mean you've never heard of the Xenophon description of Persians? Truth is right, Xenophon and other Greek writers describe the Persians as pale in comparison to the tanned Greeks. Persians can tan as well but according to the Greeks the Persians tend to cover themselves from the sun with their cloaks and long sleeved clothing and pants, whereas the Greeks (particularly men) not only wore short skirts but exercised in the open air gymnasiums naked.
HELLENICA By Xenophon "...But contempt for one's enemy will infuse a kind of strength in battle. So the Spartan leader argued; and with a view to its production he ordered the quartermasters to put up the prisoners who had been captured by his foraging bands for auction, stripped naked; so that his Hellenic soldiery, as they looked at the white skins which had never been bared to sun and wind, the soft limbs unused to toil through constant riding in carriages, came to the conclusion that war with such adversaries would differ little from a fight with women..."
^ As you can see, the Persian custom of men covering their bodies was denigrated as effeminate and lauded as such during the Persian War when they were enemies of the Greeks. (It is common tradition for Greeks to denigrate their enemies as being like women.)
The Persians are also described as having large 'hooked' noses in contrast to Greeks.
Sextus Empiricus, Against the Mathematicians, XI (200 AD): "The Ethiopian preferring the blackest and most snub-nosed, and the Persian approving the whitest and most hook-nosed"
There are also accounts of some Persians having blue or green eyes and even light colored hair. Though one must keep in mind that 'Persia' or modern day Iran consisted of various ethnic groups including indigenous folk like the Elamites and not just the Persians proper. The Iranian groups in the north tended to be fairer with a higher frequency of light colored hair and eyes while those in the south were darker. As Takruri has pointed out before, even the early Persian dynasties were historically documented to have intermarried with the native Elamite royals meaning there was definitely mixture going on.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by vidadavida: I have heard Afrocentrics saying ancient Persians were black is this true? What are their lineages and what would they have looked like?
Also who is this black guy supposed to be in history being kicked down the pit in this trailor-->
Asking what are "their lineages" needs qualification. Are you talking about the black ones or the whites because there are black Persians and near black Central even today.
The question would better have been phrased who were the earliest peoples to be called Persians, (Fars or Faras) living in Iran. Both Scythian "whites", Dravidian Elamite peoples and peoples of Afrosemitic stock known as Fars lived in Iran from the earliest times as today. We also have to remember Persia in various times could encompass an enormous region - a large part of Central Asia in fact.
These 3 groups are well displayed in their distinct skeletal remains as well, except apparently the Afrosemitic Faras or Achaemenids (Dahae/Daasa or Meluhha) appear to have dominated the region and parts of northern "India" before the Scythians.
Djehuti - many people of Iran and Central Asia still have large acquiline "hooked" noses (as Xenophon described it), but they are not the only people in Central Asia or even the only whitish people there, and never have been. Of course another group of the white people of Persia were in fact ancestral Europeans large bodied golden and white -haired "green eyed" Massagetae and Alani (Rhoxalani) - closely related to the Goths.
Most early Persian or Central Asian legends trace the original Fars clan and its heros Rustam, Sudabeh, Kav Kaus, Sievus, AzDahak and Rudabeh for example were from Haumavarah or the land of Himyar. Look at even Central Asian legends which talk about Faras or Fars being a son of Aswad.
“Shem's third son was Aswad, who begot Ahwaz and Pahlii, of whom the latter begot Pars….
From The Ta’rikh-i-guzida; or “select history of Hamdullah Mustawfi-I Qazwini, compiled in (A.D. 1330),
This is reference to the ancient and modern tribes of southern and central Arabia Aus and Faras. Interestingly they are closely related to a tribe called Khatham/Khatam. I had not noticed what Clyde Winters had said previously about the Khatam. But what is amazing that some of these Faras/Khatham (Gatam) people still located in south Saudi Arabia are still the spitting image of the Achamenid rulers depicted on the monuments! And that is opposed to the small Susian type and the different "white" Scythic types who had come from parts of the Zagros and further northwest.
The name of the legendary "Afrasiab" is also clearly reference to the tribe of Siab or Tsiab called Chub or Ka'b in Mesopotamia and Arabia who have apparently always been spread between Central Asia, Iraq and Southern Arabia.
Dahaka or Zohak ancestor of the Daae is related to Eldaah the Midianite also in legend by people like Tabari. Just as the Midianites are for good reason often confused in the ancient world with the Medes or Manda.
The name Faras, (also written Fars, Pars, Parosh, Fairuz) in both Arabia and Iranic tradition is supposed to mean horse or black horse and the legends surrounding "Faras" in both of these countries show that they originated with the same people.
So Persia apparently encompassed different ethnic groups at the time of Xenophon just as does modern India with whole populations of large nosed fair-skinned peoples in the Jat region today and extremely dark skinned peoples further south in the same region closer related to the original black Jats and Medes. We still call both of these 2 very distinct peoples - "Indians". Just like we still find whole regions of Arabia that look Syrian or Iranian and others which look largely east African or Ethiopic like the Tihama i.e. Arab.
White Scythic Persians, however, were not the Persians proper. According their own historians the Achaemenid i.e. Daae, Derbikes (Dropicans of Herodotus) and other Cephenians or "peoples of Cepheus" were. I can guarantee you will not have found a single place where these early black or Meluchha or Manda peoples were described as white and large or "hooked" nosed.
It is my view that these early black semitic people in the Persian gulf speaking Aramaic and influencing the Kassites, Zagros and Dravidic Elamites were the first people called "Persians" and "Medes". The name Lam, Ahlam and Elam may also have been brought to the region by these same people, rather than the Dravidic speaking peoples who lived there with them.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Nobody is denying that the aboriginal peoples of Iran were black people. What is clearly stated though is that the Persians proper were not and they likely originated somewhere in Central Asia as the archaeology shows. There was obviously diversity present as it is still today since there are Iranians with dark hair and eyes with hooked noses but there are also certain groups in the norther areas that have light hair, eyes, and small noses. And surprising as it may be to some, there are still remnant black groups still extant in rural areas of the south such as Baluchistan and in the border near Kuwait and Iraq. I've even talked with Iranians who admit there are still black natives in their country. As far as the ancient connection to India. There is obviously archaeological evidence of ancient ties to the Indus Valley. It is stretch to say these early Iranians were necessarily Dravidian speakers or the Indus people were Elamites but a connection between these peoples certainly existed.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Queen Elizabeth her hair is wavy not curly (but with notable black tendancies on the lower half) also notice how she could pass for Puerto Rican here (before the surgery)
. rare secret photo made without thick caked on white make up
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes, according to ... Ironlion
curly hair = black
blah..blah..
Lionese on Muurs
quote::
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The animated image of Il Moro seen here is the inspired, unique projection of a simple heraldic device already in long use by elite families and civic authorities in medieval and Renaissance Europe.
Displayed on innumerable flags and coats of arms, this was the silhouetted head of a moor, understood to be a black man, wearing a white headband.
The rationale for its use varied from a pun on a family name (such as Morese equals moor) to an evocation of universal authority.
Here, this durable image has been given three-dimensional form, coming to life as the living embodiment of an actual head of state.
Lion and his Lyonese peregrine tingy tingy: Roman Art . Eroticism in antiquity : Table has flaps with erotic scene between a man and a woman wearing a veil . A young man present at the taking stage . Mural , after 25 AD . From the Villa della Farnesina . Rome , Palazzo Massimo alle Terme Museo Nazionale Romano
Lionese you will have to beg me to stop putting up our intimate pictures from 2000 years ago.
Muurz to come
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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Furthermore this is a quote by the black Muslim Author, Al-Jahiz from the 9th century: “*Therefore, if the Arabs are ruddy, then they belong to the Byzantines (Rum), Slaves (Saqaliba), Persians and Khurasanis. But if they belong to the dark-skinned peoples, then they are a sub-category of our stock. So they are called medium-complexioned and brownish-black (sumr sud) when they are classified with us, as the Arabs use the masculine gender to refer to a group consisting of females and males.”
In the Shahnama, written by the persian poet, Firdawsi, Rudaba, mother of Rustam, is described having* ****“skin like ivory”**** *and a face ***“like the moon”*** and a*** “rosy complexion”.*** In the Avesta, Anahita is described having ***“white arms".***
The Roman Sextus Empiricus contrasts the*** ***female beauty standard of the Ethiopians with that of the Persians: ***“the Ethiopians preferring the blackest and most snub-nosed, the Persians preferring the whitest and most hook-nosed…”***
Curly hair of Persians in Persepolis:
“There can be little doubt that Achaemenid kings and courtiers wore wigs and false hairpieces and their images at Persepolis and other palace sites certainly suggest that false tresses ... Strabo (15.3.21) notes that hair was therefore a taxable item in the Persian Empire…”
From the book “God's black Prophets”: *When Christian Ethiopia reconquered Jewish Yemen in 520 CE, Jewish exiles sought assistance from the Byzantine ruler of Constantinople who turned them down on behalf of his co-religionists. On the other hand Chosroes, Zoroastrian king of Persia, took a different position. He said to the Jews: "This is the white skin against the black race. I am closer to you than to the Abyssinians." After their victory over 'the black race' the victory poem began: "We have crossed the waters to free Himyar (southern Arabia) from tyranny of the blacks.
Sayf b. Dhû Yazan, a chief of the dominant Himayrite clan of Arabs, went to Chosroes (Khusrû), the king of Persia, for help. "He said: 'O King, ravens have taken possession of our country.' Chosroes asked, 'What ravens, Abyssinians or Sindhians?' 'Abyssinians,' he replied." "Ravens" meant black people, who were identified with Indians and Abyssinians in the minds of Arabs and Persians at that time.
And: “When the persian King Chosroes heard of this he sent Wahriz with 4,000 Persians and ordered him to kill every Abyssinian or child of an Abyssinian and an Arab woman, great or small, and not leave alive a single man with crisp curly hair. Wahriz arrived and in due course carried out these instructions and wrote to tell the kind that he had done so. The king then gave him viceregal authority and he ruled under Chosroes”
Furthermore from Lisan al-Arab: “ And the Arabs used to say about the non-Arabs with whom white skin was characteristic, such as the Romans, [B]Persians[B], and their neighbors: ‘They are red-skinned (*al-hamra’*)…”* al-hamra’* means the Persians and Romans…And the Arabs attribute white skin to the slaves.**”**
Ibn Berry, the well-known Arab grammarian of the 12th century AD, explains Al Fadl ibn Al Abbas's words by saying, "...He means by this that his genealogy is pure and that he is a pure Arab because the Arabs describe their color as black and they describe the color of the non-Arab Persians as red".
Ibn Mandour further describes the pure Arabs by saying,** "Lank hair is the kind of hair that most non-Arab Persians and Romans have while kinky hair is the kind of hair that most Arabs have**". Al-Mubarrad (898), claimed: The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion ( al-sumra wa al-saw§d )and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion ( al-Èumra waal-shaqra ), and theyused to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs. **In Tareeq Al Madinah li Ibn Abi Shaybah, Chapter 3, pages 490- 491** Uyaynatu ibn Hasn said, “Oh leader of the believers,Verily I see the non Arabs** (Persians) **increasing in number in your country , beware of them. He said (Ameer al Mumimeen) they have been holding onto the ropes of Islam…. Look at [B]red (white skinned) blue eyed from them striving in the deen [B]
Posts: 95 | From: Europa | Registered: Mar 2018
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quote:Originally posted by Nevermore: [QB] Furthermore this is a quote by the black Muslim Author, Al-Jahiz from the 9th century: “*Therefore, if the Arabs are ruddy, then they belong to the Byzantines (Rum), Slaves (Saqaliba), Persians and Khurasanis. But if they belong to the dark-skinned peoples, then they are a sub-category of our stock. So they are called medium-complexioned and brownish-black (sumr sud) when they are classified with us, as the Arabs use the masculine gender to refer to a group consisting of females and males.”
" The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous"
quote:Originally posted by Nevermore: [QB] Furthermore this is a quote by the black Muslim Author, Al-Jahiz from the 9th century: “*Therefore, if the Arabs are ruddy, then they belong to the Byzantines (Rum), Slaves (Saqaliba), Persians and Khurasanis. But if they belong to the dark-skinned peoples, then they are a sub-category of our stock. So they are called medium-complexioned and brownish-black (sumr sud) when they are classified with us, as the Arabs use the masculine gender to refer to a group consisting of females and males.”
" The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous"
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