posted
In the on-going and seemingly never-ending discussion about whether or not the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs have been deciphered, a new book has entered into the ranks. It's called "Genius" and will grab your attention from page 1 and never lets go. The book is of the opinion that the Medu Neter, also called Egyptian hieroglyphs, have never been deciphered, and that no one on earth knows what the glyphs say. If you ask me, the book is a triumph and should be read by every man woman and child on earth. Here is the link to the book...
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I never knew writing systems were cyphers.
Innumerous works by AEs are available in translation.
Some mean feat for something no one on earth knows what the glyphs say.
To hell with the triscriptural Rosetta stone.
This threads topic isn't Egyptology anymore than Pyramidiology. Not that the book isn't a good read for WhatIffers who never took time to learn hieroglyphics or are put off by teaching books by pompous authors who intentionally make learning hard.
posted
Seems a bit pseudoscienctific to me esp. considering that we have the Rosetta Stone with a living language (Greek) and Coptic
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The site is down so I haven't been able to rea the book yet but it appears very obvious that the "Ancient Language" has never been deciphered. Certainly later Egyptian is fairly well understood but not the Pyramid Texts and not the ancient writing in the tombs. It's also apparent that these distinct languages shared the same vocabulary so we can "read" the words but we can't understand them.
That this is true is obvious when it is considered that nothing written in Ancient Language either makes sense or is even relevant to the culture. No two translators agree on the meaning of terms and no word origins are known. The origins of the icons, sceptres, and critical terms like "eye of horus", "ankh", or "primeval mound" are all unknown.
It simply isn't possible to understand a language and know nothing at all about it.
Then come the big problems with our interpretations of the writing; We are always having to "correct" the spelling and grammar. We gloss over the fact that the vocabulary breaks every law of linguistics like Zipf's Law.
Most people don't realize that there exist no words in the Ancient Language that apply to "thought". They didn't have words like "belief", "opinion", even "known" as in known fact.
There should be no doubt at all that Egyptians did not think like Egyptologists. We can't understand the writing so we have anomalies like 6 1/2 million ton piles of carved stone without a single "quarry worker" in evidence. We know they built with ramps yet not one single "stone dragger", "ramp builder", or "god of ramps" has been identified. Indeed, the word "ramp" itself is unattested from the great pyramid building age.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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The diary of Merer (Papyrus Jarf A and B) are logbooks written over 4,500 years ago that record the daily activities of workers who took part in the building of the Great Pyramid of Giza. The text was found in 2013 by a French mission under the direction of Pierre Tallet of Sorbonne University in a cave in Wadi al-Jarf. The text is written with hieroglyphs and hieratic on papyrus.These papyri are the oldest ones with text ever found. The diary of Merer is from the 26th year of the reign of Pharaoh Khufu. The text describes several months of work with the transportation of limestone from Tora to Giza. Merer was a middle ranking official with the title inspector (sHD). He was responsible for bringing stones from the Tora quarries to the pyramid. The stones were most likely used for cladding the outside of the pyramid. About every ten days, two or three round trips were done. About 40 boatsmen worked under him. The period covered in the papyri extends from July to November.
The entries in the logbooks are all arranged along the same line. At the top there is a heading naming the month and the season. Under that there is a horizontal line listing the days of the months. Under the entries for the days, there are always two vertical columns describing what happened on these days (Section B II): [Day 1] The director of 6 Idjeru casts for Heliopolis in a transport boat to bring us food from Heliopolis while the elite is in Tura, Day 2 Inspector Merer spends the day with his troop hauling stones in Tora North; spending the night at Tora North.
In addition to Merer, a few other people are mentioned in the fragments. The most important one is Ankhhaf, who is also known from other sources. In the papyri he is called a nobleman (iry-pat) and overseer of Ra-shi-Khufu. The latter place was the harbour at Giza where the stones for the pyramid construction arrived.[7] Several places are mentioned in the logbooks. Tura North and Tura South are the quarries.[8] Ra-shi-Khufu is the harbour of Giza.[9]
The diary of Merer is the first historical reference that describes the daily life of the people who worked with the building of the great pyramid. The Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass describes the texts as the greatest discovery in Egypt in the 21st century.[1] The papyrus is exhibited at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.[citation needed]
First day : [ ] spend the day [ ] in [ ]. [Day] 2: [ ] spend the day [ ] in? [ ]. [Day 3: Cast off from?] the royal palace? [ sail]ing [upriver] towards Tura, spend the night there. Day [4]: Cast off from Tura, morning sail downriver towards Akhet-Khufu, spend the night. [Day] 5: Cast off from Tura in the afternoon, sail towards Akhet-Khufu. Day 6: Cast off from Akhet-Khufu and sail upriver towards Tura [ ]. [Day 7]: Cast off in the morning from [ ] Day 8: Cast off in the morning from Tura, sail downriver towards Akhet-Khufu, spend the night there. Day 9: Cast off in the morning from Akhet-Khufu, sail upriver; spend the night. Day 10: Cast off from Tura, moor in Akhet-Khufu. Come from [ ]? the aper-teams?[ ] Day 11: Inspector Merer spends the day with [his phyle in] carrying out works related to the dyke of [Ro-She] Khuf[u ] Day 12: Inspector Merer spends the day with [his phyle carrying out] works related to the dyke of Ro-She Khufu [ ]. Day 13: Inspector Merer spends the day with [his phyle? ] the dyke which is in Ro-She Khufu by means of 15? phyles of aper-teams. Day [14]: [Inspector] Merer spends the day [with his phyle] on the dyke [in/of Ro-She] Khu[fu ]. [Day] 15 [ ] in Ro-She Khufu [ ]. Day 16: Inspector Merer spends the day [ ] in Ro-She Khufu with the noble? [ ]. Day 17: Inspector Merer spends the day [ ] lifting the piles of the dy[ke ]. Day 18: Inspector Merer spends the day [ ] Day 19 [ ] Day 20 [ ] for the rudder? [ ] the aper-teams.
[Day 25]: [Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle [h]au[ling]? st[ones in Tura South]; spends the night at Tura South [Day 26]: Inspector Merer casts off with his phyle from Tura [South], loaded with stone, for Akhet-Khufu; spends the night at She-Khufu. Day 27: sets sail from She-Khufu, sails towards Akhet-Khufu, loaded with stone, spends the night at Akhet-Khufu. Day 28: casts off from Akhet-Khufu in the morning; sails upriver Tura South. Day 29: Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle hauling stones in Tura South; spends the night at Tura South. Day 30: Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle hauling stones in Tura South; spends the night at Tura South.
[First day ] the director of 6 Idjer[u] casts of for Heliopolis in a transport boat-iuat to bring us food from Heliopolis while the Elite (stp-sȝ) is in Tura. Day 2: Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle hauling stones in Tura North; spends the night at Tura North. Day 3: Inspector Merer casts off from Tura North, sails towards Akhet-Khufu loaded with stone. [Day 4 ] the director of 6 [Idjer]u [comes back] from Heliopolis with 40 sacks-khar and a large measure-heqat of bread-beset while the Elite hauls stones in Tura North. Day 5: Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle loading stones onto the boats-hau of the Elite in Tura North, spends the night at Tura. Day 6: Inspector Merer sets sail with a boat of the naval section (gs-dpt) of Ta-ur, going downriver towards Akhet-Khufu. Spends the night at Ro-She Khufu. Day 7: sets sail in the morning towards Akhet-Khufu, sails towing towards Tura North, spends the night at [ ] Day 8: sets sail from Ro-She Khufu, sails towards Tura North. Inspector Merer spends the day [with a boat?] of Ta-ur? [ ]. Day 9: sets sail from [ ] of Khufu [ ]. Day 10: [ ]
[Day 13 ] She-[Khufu] [ ] spends the night at Tur]a South. [Day 14: hauling] stones [ spends the night in] Tura South. [Day 15:] Inspector Merer [spends the day] with his [phyle] hauling stones [in Tura] South, spends the night in Tura South. [Day 16: Inspector Merer spends the day with] his phyle loading the boat-imu (?) with stone [sails ] downriver, spends the night at She-Khufu. [Day 17: casts off from She-Khufu] in the morning, sails towards Akhet-Khufu; [sails from] Akhet-Khufu, spends the night at She-Khufu. [Day 18] [ ] sails [ ] spends the night at Tura . [Day 19]: Inspector Merer] spends the day [with his phyle] hauling stones in Tura [South ?]. Day 20: [Inspector] Mer[er] spends the day with [his phyle] hauling stones in Tura South (?), loads 5 craft, spends the night at Tura. Day 21: [Inspector] Merer spends the day with his [phyle] loading a transport ship-imu at Tura North, sets sail from Tura in the afternoon. Day 22: spends the night at Ro-She Khufu. In the morning, sets sail from Ro-She Khufu; sails towards Akhet-Khufu; spends the night at the Chapels of [Akhet] Khufu. Day 23: The director of 10 Hesi spends the day with his naval section in Ro-She Khufu, because a decision to cast off was taken; spends the night at Ro-She Khufu. Day 24: Inspector Merer spends the day with his phyle hauling (stones? craft?) with those who are on the register of the Elite, the aper-teams and the noble Ankhhaf, director of Ro-She Khufu. Day 25: Inspector Merer spends the day with his team hauling stones in Tura, spends the night at Tura North. [Day 26 ] sails towards [ ]
Day x+1: [sails] downriver [ ] the bank of the point of She-Khufu. Day x+2: [ ] sails? from Akhet-Khufu [ ] Ro-She Khufu. Day x+3: [ loads?] [ Tura] North. Day x+4: [ ] loaded with stone [ ] Ro-She [Khufu]. Day x+5: [ ] Ro-She Khufu [ ] sails from Akhet-Khufu; spends the night. Day x+6: [ sails ] Tura. Day x+7: [ hauling?] stones [in Tura North, spends the night at Tura North. Day x+8: [Inspector Merer] spends the day with his phyle [hauling] stones in Tura North; spends the night in Tura North. Day x+9: [ ] stones [ Tura] North. Day x+10: [ ] stones [Tu]ra North; Day x+11: [casts off?] in the afternoon [ ] sails? [ ]
x+1 [ Tura] North [ ] spends the night there. x+2: [ ] sails [ Tura] North, spends the night at Tura North. x+3 [ loads, hauls] stones [ ] x+4 [ ] spends the night there. x+5 [ ] with his phyle loading [ ] loading a craft. x+6 [ ] sails [ Ro-She?] Khufu [ ] x+7 [ ] with his phyle sails [ ] sleeps at [Ro]-She Khufu x+8 [ ]
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] The diary of Merer (Papyrus Jarf A and B) are logbooks written over 4,500 years ago that record the daily activities of workers who took part in the building of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
One can quibble about the real meaning of the diary but the more important point is that I believe the diary was written in modern language which is a pidgin form of Ancient Language.
Ancient Language got more complex as new knowledge was added right into it. By 3200 BC it had become so complex that many people were having difficulty speaking and understanding it. Modern language which used the same vocabulary was invented. It was much easier to use but your meaning would be interpreted differently by each listener. Messages couldn't be relayed in modern language because the message would change and it was difficult to communicate with modern language speakers because Ancient Language wasn't translatable. For these reasons writing was invented.
As time went by fewer and fewer people spoke Ancient Language until there weren't enough speakers to operate the state and the official language was changed by edict.
Things written in Ancient Language are incomprehensible because they are formatted differently and because they can't be parsed. We assign meaning to every word on a real-time basis but AL didn't work this way.
502a. To say: The phallus of Bȝ-bii [i.e. Babi, the baboon sky god] is drawn; the double doors of heaven are opened. 502b. The double doors of heaven are locked; the way goes over the flames under that which the gods create,
This is what happens when a simple concept is ripped from itys context and the perspective is lost: it no longer has any meaning at all.
There is a growing chorus of people who believe the AL is misinterpreted and mistranslated.
The lines above are merely describing what pyramid activities look like at night when no construction is occurring. Without perspective, context, and word meanings (as I derived from context) the intent of the author is wholly lost.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
The Rosetta stone revealed some things. For some reason you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater
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I have to agree SamP brought up some valuable points. Two different context using same word can have diametrically opposed meaning.
We still argue over "black" the charcoal symbol meaning Earth or people.
"502a. To say: The phallus of Bȝ-bii [i.e. Babi, the baboon sky god] is drawn; the double doors of heaven are opened. 502b. The double doors of heaven are locked; the way goes over the flames under that which the gods create,
This is what happens when a simple concept is ripped from itys context and the perspective is lost: it no longer has any meaning at all."
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Rosetta stone revealed some things. For some reason you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater
The Rosetta Stone merely made it possible to translate "words". This was sufficient to translate and understand most of the written Egyptian so when the Pyramid Texts was discovered in 1883 everyone believed it was sufficient for understanding it, too. But the PT have never been understood at all because it is written in a different kind of language. It is not a book of magic as is believed but is actually a book of the rituals read aloud to the crowds at the kings' ascension ceremonies. Egyptologists dropped the ball here. They did a fair job translating words but they overlooked the meaning entirely.
The meaning in the PT explains everything. It explains the evidence and the culture. It explains in simple terms how stinky footed bumpkins could build things as complex as the great pyramids; they weren't stinky footed bumpkins. They were intelligent and wise and they spoke a language that was based on the wiring of the brain which reflected the same natural logic that makes mathematics work and operates all of reality. They spoke an "animal" language that was far more complex than any other animal and they experienced their own consciousness differently than Egyptologists or you and I.
There never was any "baby" in the bathtub. Everyone has forgotten human origins because human origins were based on a rudimentary science and when this science was lost with Ancient Language that "baby" was lost. Homo sapiens died out and has been replaced by those who know everything; Homo Omnisciencis. They operated on what they knew and could observe and we operate on what we believe.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Two different context using same word can have diametrically opposed meaning.
We still argue over "black" the charcoal symbol meaning Earth or people.
I think the points that more and more people are saying we misunderstand all the ancient writing and that no two translators agree on meaning is very telling.
Egyptologists saw the Pyramid Texts looked a lot like the book of the dead so they translated it in these terms. This is where they went so horribly wrong and added another century and a half to the detour we've been on for nearly 4000 years.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Termin: In the on-going and seemingly never-ending discussion about whether or not the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs have been deciphered, a new book has entered into the ranks. It's called "Genius" and will grab your attention from page 1 and never lets go. The book is of the opinion that the Medu Neter, also called Egyptian hieroglyphs, have never been deciphered, and that no one on earth knows what the glyphs say. If you ask me, the book is a triumph and should be read by every man woman and child on earth. Here is the link to the book...
Why the ancient language had to be decrypted / deciphered in the first place? If the people who claim to be the direct descendants and claim to speak the original language didnt even know it. lol And are even using Greek, middle age / classic Arabic and even Turkish names to describe places. This tells us that they are willing to lie a million miles.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sam p: Homo sapiens died out and has been replaced by those who know everything; Homo Omnisciencis. They operated on what they knew and could observe and we operate on what we believe. [/QB]
So we're Homo Omnisciencis and Homo sapiens died out ?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
We who? We who can't read hieroglyphics, that's who.
Anyone with basic knowledge of hieroglyphics knows "the charcoal symbol" does not mean neither earth nor people.
C'mon, this the Egyptology forum.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We still argue over "black" the charcoal symbol meaning Earth or people.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Egyptologists believe that Philae was the last active site of the native ancient Egyptian religion, and that the last Egyptian hieroglyph was written there in the late fourth century. The temple was closed down officially in the sixth century by the Byzantine emperor Justinian I (527-565).
Thats why they don't know. Did we suddenly forget about suppressions? Hieroglyphs were still engraved and read until the triumph of Christianity, after which anything Egyptian was suppressed with fire and sword. They were never well-understood in Europe anyway, and after this their meaning became completely lost, in Egypt as well as in Europe. [....] The next problem was to decipher the Egyptian language, a task of overwhelming difficulty, since Egyptian does not resemble any other language except its descendant Coptic.
Copts don't know the glyphs but Coptic lexicon aids AEL xlation. And what about that Arab before the Frenchman and the Stone? I thought you posted on him?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Termin: In the on-going and seemingly never-ending discussion about whether or not the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs have been deciphered, a new book has entered into the ranks. It's called "Genius" and will grab your attention from page 1 and never lets go. The book is of the opinion that the Medu Neter, also called Egyptian hieroglyphs, have never been deciphered, and that no one on earth knows what the glyphs say. If you ask me, the book is a triumph and should be read by every man woman and child on earth. Here is the link to the book...
Why the ancient language had to be decrypted / deciphered in the first place? If the people who claim to be the direct descendants and claim to speak the original language didnt even know it. lol And are even using Greek, middle age / classic Arabic and even Turkish names to describe places. This tells us that they are willing to lie a million miles.
posted
Yeah but that doesnt mean we cant read the hieroglyphs
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I have to agree SamP brought up some valuable points. Two different context using same word can have diametrically opposed meaning.
We still argue over "black" the charcoal symbol meaning Earth or people.
"502a. To say: The phallus is of Bȝ-bii [i.e. Babi, the baboon sky god] is drawn; the double doors of heaven are opened. 502b. The double doors of heaven are locked; the way goes over the flames under that which the gods create,
This is what happens when a simple concept is ripped from itys context and the perspective is lost: it no longer has any meaning at all."
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Yeah but that doesnt mean we cant read the hieroglyphs
What I am saying is that we can "read" the hieroglyphs quite easily. We can read them because the vocabulary of Ancient Language was the same vocabulary used in its pidgin form which is all modern languages.
We know what individual words mean for the main part but we don't have a clue what the author meant. We misinterpret meanings because Ancient Language was formatted differently. It was formatted similarly to computer language. This is an extremely apt analogy because the human brain is binary just like a computer and AL was a sort of operating system.
Modern languages are completely different and are "analog" in the sense that words are symbolic and their meaning is defined by context. Ancient words had fixed meanings and context was stated.
This change in language is nearly invisible because the vocabulary underwent relatively little change. But when we "read" the ancient writing it doesn't make sense because author intent is lost when word meaning varies and so many referents are unknown. Indeed, this is how I solved the language; discovery of referents in context. We think "shu" is some sort of imaginary being that represented air and controlled men's destiny. This is a confusion caused by defining terms using later vocabularies. "Shu" was in actuality the "natural phenomenon of inertia".
Translations and modern understanding of most Egyptian writing is probably quite good. But there are some things written in Ancient Language (principally the Pyramid Texts) and this is not understood in any real way whatsoever. It is not a collection of spells written in gobbledty gook. They are rituals read aloud at the kings' ascension ceremonies where they became the pyramid and a star. They didn't literally become a pyramid and star because the Egyptians had no "beliefs" of any sort. Rather the pyramid became a mnemonic to remember the king and his star was used to remember his place in history.
We couldn't be any more wrong about the great pyramid builders or the pyramids.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
All this bullshit
We can read hieroglyphics mainly due to COPTIC
EGYPTOLOGY forum is now pseudo science.
Oh I forgot, collective reality died last millennium.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
the Egyptians left no extensive definition of Maat, only statements of its centrality in the conception of and practice of the good in that which is divine, social and natural (Karenga, p. 5). This is the same idea of characterization. We can tell you what it does, how it acts, and what it provides for society and human relationships, but an exact, precise definition is difficult to discover.
In the ancient African text, Dialog of a Man with His Soul the question of living in a society with isfet is raised in this fashion:
To whom shall I speak today? Brothers are evil The friends of today no longer love.
To whom shall I speak today? Hearts are greedy Everyone seizes the goods of his fellow humans.
To whom shall I speak today? Compassion has perished, Violence assaults everyone.
To whom shall I speak today? Men plunder Everyone robs his fellow.
To whom shall I speak today? The criminal is ones intimate friend The brother with whom one dealt has become an enemy.
To whom shall I speak today? The past is not remembered. Now one does not help him who once helped.
To whom shall I speak today? One lacks an intimate friend. One turns to an unknown to complain.
To whom shall I speak today? I am burdened with grief For lack of an intimate friend.
To whom shall I speak today Wrong roams the earth, And there is no end to it. (103-130).
Karenga claims that with no original sin, that is, in the Western sense, first sin, no sense of human stain, as in the Judeo-Christian philosophy, the African sees no need for transformation because one must simply uncover ones inner strength based on the divine nature that is a part of every human (Karenga, p. 235).
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Maat was reciprocity, justice, moderation, and the search for perfection. The king had to live according to Maat. In fact, the prescription was to speak Maat, to do Maat, and to be Maat. Without this constant quest for holding back chaos, the ancient people believed that the world would be overcome by the forces of evil. Thus in one Sebayet, the Wisdom, by Ptahhotep, a philosopher who lived around 2900 BC, it is written (Ptahhotep, 520-532, cited in Karenga, 2004, p. 237). : If good deeds are done by one who leads He will be well established forever. And all his wisdom will endure for eternity. The wise nourishes his Ba [soul] with that which endures So that it is well with him on earth. The wise is known by his wisdom, A noble person by his good deeds. His heart is in harmony with his tongue. His lips are accurate when he speaks. He sees rightly through his eyes. His ears are pleased to hear what is useful for his children. He does Maat and is free from falsehood
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Maat seeks to unravel the entangling fear that we feel in intercultural communication. The unease that communicators often experience when they encounter someone who looks different, who speaks a different language, who practices a different belief, who possesses a different political history is the fear that must be unhinged in order for us to know a radically powerful emancipation in our communication.
Maat means that the communicator must always be in search of harmony, balance, order, justice, truth, righteousness, and reciprocity.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Maat means that the communicator must always be in search of harmony, balance, order, justice, truth, righteousness, and reciprocity. [/QB]
I believe 'maat" is the 'natural phenomenon of balance".
But the relevant point is that there is no means to know that we understand the ancient writing since it makes no sense. It should be noted that there is no "science" at the heart of how this language has been translated. The translations are based on our understanding of linguistics in which no experiment can be performed. Even the "laws" of linguistics are broken buy this writing.
The methodology used to translate the ancient writing is unsound. Essentially there wasn't enough writing or knowns to solve the PT in terms of itself so they solved many word meanings in terms of culture that wouldn't exist for 1000 years. They believed this was OK to do because the PT "looked" like the book of the dead but I believe this similarity only existed because the vocabulary was the same and the authors of the book of the dead venerated and tried to copy the more ancient people.
This theory is based largely on logic, reverse engineering the pyramid, and extensive observation. It makes numerous predictions and some have been borne out. The fact is there are more and more people who believe we can't understand the most ancient writing and most agree that current translations make no sense in any language.
It is my opinion translations make no sense because Ancient Language (the words of the gods) can't be translated into any existing human language. It is my opinion they make perfect sense but then I understand only about 90% of it.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I believe I'm the Grand Wazoo.
My mystic powers can tell me who never cracked any book on hieroglyphics or Middle Egyptian and therefore talking out the wazoo about it.
If Xyyman posted stuff like in this thread his posts would've been deleted after a warning or the thread moved. Some people get carte blanc for some unknown reason. Others are on the shit list.
Pity the surfer relying on this forum for "Mainstream Egyptology. Egypt in its African context, population genetics and other areas of Africana studies." as advertised.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Egyptologists believe that Philae was the last active site of the native ancient Egyptian religion, and that the last Egyptian hieroglyph was written there in the late fourth century. The temple was closed down officially in the sixth century by the Byzantine emperor Justinian I (527-565).
Thats why they don't know. Did we suddenly forget about suppressions?
Hieroglyphs were still engraved and read until the triumph of Christianity, after which anything Egyptian was suppressed with fire and sword. They were never well-understood in Europe anyway, and after this their meaning became completely lost, in Egypt as well as in Europe. [....] The next problem was to decipher the Egyptian language, a task of overwhelming difficulty, since Egyptian does not resemble any other language except its descendant Coptic.
Copts don't know the glyphs but Coptic lexicon aids AEL xlation. And what about that Arab before the Frenchman and the Stone? I thought you posted on him?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Wow! Haven't looked at Amharic for decades when back in the 80's I had the Geez version of the Song of Songs which is Solomon's.
Besides the Gesenius lexicon, iirc, Budge tables the Ethiopic and other characters in his dictionary (available free online).
I admit familiarity with the Hebrew aleph-bet made learning Egyptic characters a softer task than coming at it straight from Latin characters and Indo-European language background. Hebrew and Egyptic belong to the same African language family as shown at your link which I wonder about too. A lot of linguists wonder about depth and relationship of east and north African languages.
My intro to hieroglyphics and AEL was Budge's Egyptian Language: easy lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphics, in the library of who would be my 3rd wife. Today I own Allen's Middle Egyptian 2nd edition, not user friendly in the least.
Regarding the OP which isn't and never will be mainstream Egyptology, I can't seem to find a work titled Genius keyword hieroglyphics when I searched for it.
Was hoping to find a review or any notice of it or any bookseller offering it.
When I was a vendor GK Osei was reprinting various old works. It was from him I learned the Arabian plate lands are natural physical geological Africa, whatever Eurocentric ancient Greek reliant political geography has to say, now going so far as to give away Mediterranean Africa to a false 'Eurasian' Middle East. http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n50049547/ a small subset
Thanks to Kofi we could move from Massey directly to rare Egyptian books. Today Karenga has moved forward from that base onto publishing Maat a serious $130 book acclaimed by reknowned Egyptologist Jan Assman.
Keeping AE linked to its African reality is what allowed Karenga to make his breakthroughs in the meaning of AE concepts, not a lot of roorag like "we can read hieroglyphics but don't know what they mean. "
Even after told by Karenga what Maat means, SamP continued throwing readers off track with his own reduction self preferred fantasy.
quote: from SamP
quote:from Karenga
Maat means that the communicator must always be in search of harmony, balance, order, justice, truth, righteousness, and reciprocity.
I believe 'maat" is the 'natural phenomenon of balance".
Karenga's more affordable work is Selections from the Husia: Sacred Wisdom of Ancient Egypt "A selection and retranslation of the oldest sacred text in the world, with critical commentaries on the richness of the African spiritual achievement and legacy in ancient Egypt. In this selection we read the earliest written record of the dawning of humanitys structured consciousness concerning spirituality and ethics. Here we find, for the first time in human history, the concepts of Maat (truth, justice, rightness), humans in the image of God, human dignity, judgment after death, free will, immortality of the soul, human equality, and social justice."
Ya, we know the meanings because of related African concepts like in your posted Ethiopic image.
quote: "A selection and retranslation of the oldest sacred text in the world, with critical commentaries on the richness of the African spiritual achievement and legacy in ancient Egypt. In this selection we read the earliest written record of the dawning of humanitys structured consciousness concerning spirituality and ethics. Here we find, for the first time in human history, the concepts of Maat (truth, justice, rightness), humans in the image of God, human dignity, judgment after death, free will, immortality of the soul, human equality, and social justice."
Ya, we know the meanings because of related African concepts like in your posted Ethiopic image.
Part of the problem with mainstream interpretations is that word and concept origins are unknown. Even the simple "ankh" is believed by every Egyptologist to be something different. Perhaps they are all mistaken!
It is hardly unusual in human history for every scientist or every scholar to be wrong. This can happen for a multitude of reasons but typically it's a fundamental flaw in their understanding. Such flaws are readily visible in this case since the translated PT makes no sense and contradicts itself repeatedly. Much more seriously it lacks words to describe any kind of thought or the result of thought! This is a very basic and fundamental difference between ancient and modern language. The implication is that ancient people didn't think like we do and, in a sense, didn't really "think" at all.
The fact that not even the most basic understanding of the ancient writing, culture, or their artefacts can be shown is indication of a fundamental flaw in our beliefs about them. We have taken the evidence and interpreted it incorrectly. This is why so many facts don't fit and this is why so many people look at current beliefs and can't agree. This is why there are increasing numbers of people who see other ways to interpret the writing and the evidence.
So long as there are more and more people reading ancient literature there will be more people who believe we are misapprehending, misinterpreting, and mistranslating it.
Until we systematically apply science to understanding the ancient artefacts we can't even begin the laborious process of understanding author intent in Ancient Language.
Just for clarity and the new forum let me repeat that I believe there were two distinct languages that shared the same vocabulary. My words here apply principally to the older language. The older language was 40,000 years old and included everything known by man and the these languages were used concurrently from 3200 BC until 2000 BC. This situation is difficult to see because the newer version looks a lot like the older but is just like ours.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Horseshit and I don't care admin backs you and wants you to be moderator of this forum.
Trump-like repitition of a lie is still a lie except to fans adorers willing dupes and the clueless.
The words and concepts are African just like the plant and animal glyphs just like the people who spoke the Egyptian language 5500-1700 years ago and speak an Egyptian language today.
Keep your eurocentric fantasy opinion with admin's blessings. A fantasy unbacked by anything but your opinion that AEs are some mystical magical machine language users unrelated to the Sudanis they shared culture with until Naqada 2.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: A fantasy unbacked by anything but your opinion that AEs are some mystical magical machine language users unrelated to the Sudanis they shared culture with until Naqada 2.
I believe that the human progress that began some 40,000 years ago and gave rise to the great African civilizations began as a result of a mutation which more closely tied the speech center with the rest of the brain. Before this the complexity of human language was highly limited just like all animal languages. But after the people could communicate far more complex ideas it became possible to accumulate knowledge over the generations. It is the accumulation of knowledge which is human progress.
The original humans 40,000 years ago already had a basic animal language so the new language was merely an elaboration on it. This original language was just like all animal language in that it was tied to the wiring of the brain. The new language was used by all humans everywhere and was carried out of Africa to far corners of the earth. There was a single human language and though it had many dialects it was possible with effort to speak with anyone.
All people were closely in tune with nature and other animals even though interspecies communication was far more limited. People thought in terms of Ancient Language. But Ancient Language is so dissimilar to our language it's very difficult to "see" this thinking. We operate on our beliefs because this is how modern languages all work. The great pyramid builders operated on their knowledge.
When the Greeks conquered Egypt they tried to understand the ancient writing which still existed in significant quantities but they couldn't understand it because Ancient Language was science based and the Greeks had no science at all. They didn't recopy much of the writing because they couldn't understand it. So they studied the scrolls to death. Bits and pieces of their understanding survive in various places such as the hermetic writings and the Bible but these are mostly just "interpretations". For instance the story of the Tower of Babel in the Bible is merely a confused retelling of the story of how official language all over were changed by law to modern languages around 2000 BC. There were not enough people who could still understand Ancient Language to operate the state so the state changed the language by which they operated.
I was hoping Termin would come back and expound on his opening post. Without it and without being able to read the book it's difficult to be certain of the topic.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
- deleted -
-whoopS this is in deshret now
Nothing more to say on it from me anymore except it's very good stuff in the vein of Massey Churchward Higgins
Just wondering. Ever checkout Ancient Egypt the Light of the World Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man Anacalypsis
posted
OK, the link seems to be working now and I believe I've read the book ("666" that is 333 pages).
It has many keen insights in it and I agree with the author on many points. My primary disagreement is I don't believe hieroglyphs created the world but rather ancient man and all life creates their understanding (science) in terms of language and hieroglyphs represented Ancient Language which they called "the words of the gods".
Reality itself was reinvented in human terms through science. This is how termites and humans invented agriculture. This is how every individual life form that has ever existed before modern humans has survived to procreate and invent. Modern humans still survive on consciousness but the nature of consciousness is different for us. It is still based on language but modern languages are all divorced from reality, nature, and logic. We exist as a collection of beliefs but the great pyramid builders and all other life exist(s)ed on their knowledge and survive or die accordingly.
The ancients anthropomorphized reality itself and that vocabulary they used to do this survives today. Some of their science survives as well in the Bible and other writings.
Modern science is divorced from reality just like modern religion and ALL MODERN THOUGHT. The ancients called reality; "amun". He was always hidden and the best we could do was glimpse him. "God" is not "amun" because today "God" and every single thing everyone believes is not rooted in reality but in beliefs, extrapolations, language.
The "words of the gods" were reality itself. Little of this reality survives today because we can't speak English and believe in it.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ... except it's very good stuff in the vein of Massey Churchward Higgins
Just wondering. Ever checkout Ancient Egypt the Light of the World Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man Anacalypsis
Thanks for the leads. Interesting stuff.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
JG Jackson Intro to Afr Civ, the 1st 3 chs Africa &/t Origin of Man Ethiopia &/t Origin of Civ Egypt &/t Evolution of Civ is what introduced me to those authors and ideas.
Jackson also has a book Man God and Civilization that more or less continues where E&EC leaves off.
Modern science is divorced from reality just like modern religion and ALL MODERN THOUGHT. The ancients called reality; "amun". He was always hidden and the best we could do was glimpse him. "God" is not "amun" because today "God" and every single thing everyone believes is not rooted in reality but in beliefs, extrapolations, language. The "words of the gods" were reality itself. Little of this reality survives today because we can't speak English and believe in it.
.
That could be the old idea of words causing/defining "reality. "
In Hebrew thought the Eternal said B*reshiyth, the explosive B sound being the Big Bang (In the beginning). Also the Adam naming everything in creation after alphabetic hints.
I forget which of the Neteru was supposed to have used language or letters as an aid to the creation.
Where these ancients maybe just trying to get across that (rational?) intelligence is behind all creation?
That could be the old idea of words causing/defining "reality. "
In Hebrew thought the Eternal said B*reshiyth, the explosive B sound being the Big Bang (In the beginning). Also the Adam naming everything in creation after alphabetic hints.
I forget which of the Neteru was supposed to have used language or letters as an aid to the creation.
Where these ancients maybe just trying to get across that (rational?) intelligence is behind all creation?
Language causing reality is a very old idea but I believe it's a confusion of even older ideas.
When Ancient Language was lost there was no longer any science for the scholars to understand that writing. The ancients were known to have been powerful and wise and people could still communicate well enough to compare notes on Ancient Language. The concept that language was reality itself and that the gods were created in man's image wasn't lost until after it had spawned dozens of confusions. Much of the world (perception) was and is confusion of ancient concepts. Astronomy became astrology. Puns (rhyming of meaning) from Ancient Language became comedy. Chemistry became alchemy. This list includes most human activity until modern science based on experiment arose. But even science is interpreted and understood in terms of its metaphysics and modern languages. Science is understood in terms of models that don't exist and are constructs mostly of language.
There's a lot of irony here. We are confused and speak confused language but ancient science lies at the heart of modern languages and almost all modern beliefs. We say the sun comes up in the morning even though we know it doesn't because this is what we observe. There's no confusion in languages that can't be addressed once it is identified.
We rarely seek such things because we are each a product of our beliefs. We each see the flaws in other peoples' beliefs or premises but we don't see such weaknesses in our own. It makes perfect sense to every Egyptologist that highly superstitious people could band together to drag million of tons of tombs up ramps and then leave no evidence they did so. It makes perfect sense to them that these highly superstitious people spoke languages so complex that we can't understand the meanings of the words, icons, and sceptres. It makes perfect sense to them that these highly superstitious people lacked the vocabulary of belief and superstition.
So more and more people are reading the ancient writing and seeing that it really hasn't been solved. Egyptologists don't have a clue what the writer meant or was thinking because Egyptologists don't think like ancient people and from the ancient perspective people didn't "think" at all and they even lacked any of the words for thought.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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I forget which of the Neteru was supposed to have used language or letters as an aid to the creation.
Where these ancients maybe just trying to get across that (rational?) intelligence is behind all creation?
At the risk of belaboring the point because I love talking about their real "beliefs" the specific god that did something was dependent on perspective. Normally atum was said to have created the world but "nun" came first. "Nun" was the god of the waters of the abyss so when atum stood on the primeval mound and ejaculated shu (upward) and tefnut (downward) through the ben ben it was "nun" who drove the water up and caused it to then fall but he operated through atum.
The interconnectedness of language made it powerful and it also made each individual user able to access all of his knowledge. It is this interconnectedness that lies at the heart of the individual of all species to survive. Ancient science was not very advanced but it was a thousand times more advanced than any other animal.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please continue and expand at will.
I'm really not sure where to start.
Ancient science is very difficult for us to understand because we think "wrong" for doing this kind of science. Our science recognizes the weaknesses of logic in understanding reality so science is based on experiment through which reality operates exposing a bit of itself. We use these peeks at reality to construct models of reality. It is very effective at progress and it is exceedingly effective at producing technology but it is very weak at leading to understanding.
Ancient science (animal science) works because reality itself is modeled in the brain by means of language and its inherent logic which reflects the wiring of the brain. This is the same natural logic that underlies mathematics. Just as reality is three dimensional so too is the thought and modeling in the individual. This science is based on observation and logic rather than observation and experiment. It produces little technology but lots of understanding.
Perhaps the three dimensionality is why ancients didn't experience consciousness the same way we do. Our thought is linear using language that contains no logic. We are virtually observers of our own thinking and this experience spawns vocabulary like "thought", "belief", and "idea". Ancient people didn't experience their consciousness in this way.
Here are definitions for some of the icons and tools;
Mks-sceptre; a floating oil lamp stored in anubis' chest Ankh; a representation of spraying water on the horizon Dm-sceptre; A tool for redirecting rope (pulley). Ba mhni-sceptre; A weir. Glyphs F46- F50; links of chain. Winding Watercourse; canals that operated the equipment to build pyramids. 3ms-sceptre; Rope guide Nbht-sceptre; Mehet weret's variegated feather that signaled water flow by day. W3s-sceptre; Tool which operated djed. Djed; A device placed over the eye of horus to make the water stream stable and enduring. Eye of horus; Any opening through which water and fluids were intended to flow. Serpent; Unintended fluid flows (very dangerous). Crown; The top (head) of a fluid flow. Rennennutet; A device that channeled gasses from the upper eye in mehet weret to the mks-sceptre to keep it afloat longer. Min; An hydraulic leveling device on the east side base of G1. Mehet weret; An elevated platform that caught the "celestial water". Shm-sceptre; A device that directed water from the upper eye in the mehet weret to the nurse canal. Zep tepi; the theoretical first eruption of spraying water. Horus (the younger); The stone which comprises the pyramid. Isis; The counterweight which lifts horus out of tayet. Seker; The name of osiris when he sits in isis's boat as the weight which lifts horus. "Osiris in his name of seker tows the earth by means of balance". Maat; Balance. (the balance of the two boats tied together). Tayet; The quarry. Great Saw Palace; The mason's shop on the east sides of great pyramids. 3nw-boat (henu boat); The concept of two boats tied together. Dndndr-boat; The boat on the south sides of pyramids that lifted the stones. It was tied to the 3nw-boat overseen by isis.
We simply don't think like they did. It's a little difficult to get all of author intent because so many referents are lost, the translations are bad, and there is a lot of physical evidence that Egyptology has never bothered to gather. It is evidence and logic that led to my solution of these words so the more evidence available the more I can solve, therefore to date I've solved only about 90% of it. For instance I predicted the thermal anomaly but only after it was found was I able to positively identify it as the "Cool is the Crown Path" that leads to the Mafdet Lynx and the Book of Thot which was their version of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and lies just meters inside of the Great Pyramid.
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posted
The reason Egyptologists don't understand how the ancients accomplished their enormous feats is that they don't understand why. It is mistakenly believed that the ancients were highly primitive and remarkably superstitious. Since these terms are so closely associated with the ancients in the minds of Egyptologists they simply assume they could only have used ramps, brute force, and a slavish worship of their own dead king.
But these things exist only in the minds of modern people because we don't understand that there are other ways to think and other kinds of science. Since we see what we believe instead of what exists we don't see all the clues and evidence right in front of us. We can't hear the builders when they said "tefnut makes the earth high under the sky by means of her arms". The evidence for how they built the pyramids is everywhere and they even said exactly how they (the gods) built the pyramids but we still see stinky footed bumpkins dragging stones up ramps.
We ascribe our success to intelligence but we ascribe the successes of the ancients to trial and error as well as superstition. We ascribe the success of animals to instinct and "survival of the fittest" because modern man speaking modern language doesn't understand the nature of consciousness or language. We see this from a perspective that makes it almost impossible to understand.
We have believed for 4000 years (even before the invention of modern science) that we know just about everything. Ancient people knew they were ignorant and could barely see "amun" (reality) at all. But they had a language that enveloped all human knowledge and they used this knowledge to build pyramids and even to think. Each individual commanded human knowledge in his thought. These were truly powerful words: They were the Words of the Gods.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sam p: These were truly powerful words: They were the Words of the Gods.
Because the means to discover and to record human knowledge was language itself the language was "metaphysical". This word is widely misunderstood and actuality means the basis of science. Modern science is observation and experiment and its metaphysics is the definitions and axioms upon which it was founded as well as experimental results.
Ancient Science was very different. It was observation and logic where this logic sprang from the wiring of the brain and was expressed as language. Since language included the results of observation as well as the rules to make observation, Ancient Language was itself metaphysical as are all animal languages. The ancient word for metaphysics was "heka" which we mistranslate as "magic".
It wasn't "magic" that built pyramids and made individuals powerful but rather it was language itself. It was the metaphysics of their language.
It should be patently obvious that superstition doesn't create and can only destroy. It is science that gives rise to progress, knowledge, and great pyramids.
The pyramids were built to remember the king but they were also monuments to their greatness. The Great Pyramid itself is also a time capsule and provides a means to understand its builders because they left everything we need to know just inside the NE corner. We literally stand on the threshold of understanding our past and Ancient Science because it lies just beyond the thermal anomaly and has a path leading straight to it.
I fear Egyptologists lack the courage to explore further. They know nothing behind this anomaly can possibly support their beliefs so they'd rather not know and rather everyone forgets it's even there.
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