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Even though Egyptsearch isnt what it once was, I still find many of the photos, ideas, discoveries and sources that were first gathered and posted here used all over the internet, so despite what people now think we did have an impact on academia and historical research.
That said I want to challenge this idea that "Afrocentrism" is an African American concept, Considering that the most popular ridicule of Afrocentrism is the "We Wuz Kangs" comment on Youtube, an obvious jive at so called Ebonics or African American Venacular English. Really its not really that suprising, African Americans have been the punching bag for countless peoples not just Europeans and European diasporans but Hispanics, Asians and even Africans themeselves, so it should come as no suprise that people who look to the movie "300" and Youtube historians as legit will punch low hanging fruit.
Anyway Rant aside this thread is for evidence that notions of Africentism was laid down by non African Americans and st times non Africans.
Disclaimer: I dont endorse race as anything other than a social construct but I will use "Black" quite Liberally here.
Let me end my OP with a quote from the original Afrocentric, the master of medieval Arabic prose Al Jahiz...
quote:The Ethiopians, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors, the people of Sind, the Hindus, the Qamar, the Dabila, the Chinese, and those beyond them...the islands in the seas...are full of blacks...up to Hindustan and China."
Al-Jahiz (776-869): Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites
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I have no idea where the fuck this meme that "Afrocentrism" is specific to African-Americans came from. There have been plenty of Afro-Caribbean and continental African writers identifying ancient Egyptians as native African people. For that matter, some of the earliest contributors to the current discourse were white Europeans like Count Constantin de Volney. But I guess the latter were all soyboy beta cucks supporting "Cultural Marxism".
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Like I said its about hitting low hanging fruit. European diasporans esp."White" Americans spread hatred and disdain for African Americans the world over, the stereotype of the clueless sambo, eating fried chicken and speaking in Ebonics is the backbone of many of the most famous American films ever created from "The Birth of a Nation" to "Gone With the Wind" world sensations...so its no suprise that African Americans take the brunt of people who dont have a clue about Africana academics...
"Cultural Marxism" the scapegoat and boodyman of the Alt-Right youtube edge lords, stems from Nazi Fascist scaremongering of the Socialists in Germany during that time. It doesnt exist, yet the Rightwing have successfully made it a boogyman for many not just whites but primarily young men of all races and nationalities who use Youtube as their source of information and indocrination.
Btw, none of these people esp. Americans have read Marx, or even know what a Marxist is.
Marxist Economist Richard Wolffe has challenged the Alt Right huckster Jordan Peterson to a debate, to no avail...I wonder why..??
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I have no idea where the fuck this meme that "Afrocentrism" is specific to African-Americans came from. There have been plenty of Afro-Caribbean and continental African writers identifying ancient Egyptians as native African people. For that matter, some of the earliest contributors to the current discourse were white Europeans like Count Constantin de Volney. But I guess the latter were all soyboy beta cucks supporting "Cultural Marxism".
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Anyway a core component of Afrocentrism or what modern day Afrocentrism advocates is that Black people or people with Dark Skin were the original inhabitants and creators of majority if not all of the worlds civilizations. To various extreemes some people go as far as claim that people such as the Vikings and Chinese as being "originally black" While others claim that the original natives were black and were absorbed by lighter tribes or simply adapted to their less tropical enviroments. While some Afrocentrics simply focus on Africa only.
Im going to try to address the notion of black or dark skinned people outside of Africa and the way Lighter skinned non African viewed them.
As discussed before Al-Jahiz makes a Difference between the "Blacks" of the Sudan and Sahel and the Lands that had "People of" Blacks, I.E Countries and lands not in Africa with dark and black skinned people
quote:The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.
When it comes to "China and the Islands in the seas between Africa and China" we have Chinese sources that corroborate and back up this Zanj boast that Al-Jahiz documented.
The meanings of the word kunlun expanded during the Tang to include the races, countries, and languages of Southeast Asia. The Former Tang History describes the homeland of the kunlun people: "The people living to the south of Linyi ~[present-day Vietnam] have curly hair and black bodies and are commonly called kunlun.,,16 The description of the country of Zhenla ~ HI (present-day Cambodia) also includes information on the kunlun: ~'The country of Zhenla is northwest of Linyi. It was originally a dependent of Funan. It is of the kunlun type.,,17 This appears to be the earliest Chinese.indication o f the kunlun as a racial group with a specific homeland. 18
(1) The Lin-yi Kuo Chuan, ("Topography of the Land of Linyi") contained in Book 197 of the Chiu T'ang Shu ("Old Dynastic History of T'ang") says: "The people living to the south of Linyi have woolly hair and black skin, and are commonly known as K'unlun."
In the Chen-la Kuo Chuan ("Topography of the Land of Chen-la") contained in the same volume, we find the following: "Chen-la is situated to the north-west of Lin-yi. It was formerly a dependency of Fu Nan. Its inhabitants belong to the race of K'un-lun."
In Part II of Book 222 of the Hsin Tang Shu ("New Dynastic History of T'ang"), we read: "P'an-p'an is situated on the Gulf of Nan-hai. To the north it is separated from Huanwang by a strait and it is contiguous to Lang-ya-hsiu . . . Its subject tribes are the P'u-lang-so-lan, the K'un-lun Ti-yeh, the K'un-lun Bo-ho, and the K'un-lun Po-ti-so-kan. The tribe last mentioned is also known as the Ku Lung, which is phonetically akin to K'un-lun."
In another part of the same volume, it says: "Fu Nan is situated a distance of 70 li (about 25 English miles) to the south of Jih Nan. The country is low and the climate moist. The people have customs similar to the folk of Huan-wang. In this land are walled towns and palaces. Its king, whose name is Ku-lung, lives in a two-storied structure built upon a raised terrace. The roof is thatched with leaves. When the King goes abroad, he rides on an elephant. The inhabitants have black skin and woolly hair, and they go about naked."
(2) In the Yi Ching Nan-hai Chi Kuei Nei Fa Chuan ("The Code of Esoteric Laws brought back from Nan-hai by Yi Ching"), there is a note to the following effect: "Enumerated in order from west to east, the succession of islands is as follows: Po-lo-shih, Mo-lo-yu (i.e. the Kingdom of Shih-li-fu-yi), Mo-ho-hsin, Ho-ling, Tan-tan, P'an-p'an, Po-li, Chüehlun, Fu-yi-pu-lo, Ah-shan, Mo-chia-man, and innumerable other smaller islands."
In the text proper, to which this note refers, we read: "All these islanders are Buddhists. The majority of them belong to the Hinayana sect, with the exception of a few adherents of the Mahayana sect who live on the island of Mo-lo-yu. As to the size of these countries, some are 100 li, others several hundred li, and some even a hundred horse-stations in circumference. Though it is not easy to estimate distances at sea, still we rely for them on the data furnished by mariners.
The first of these to reach Tonkin and Canton gave to Chüeh-lun the name of K'un-lun. The inhabitants thereof have wooly hair and black skin, but the inhabitants of the other islands are like the Chinese, except that they go about bare-footed and wear a kind of cloth called kanman."
The French Sinologist Chavannes believes that the "Chüeh-lun" of Yi Ching is the same as the land of Lin-yi and Chen-la in the T'ang Shu ("Dynastic History of T'ang"), namely, modern Siam and the Malay Peninsula. But this is hardly tenable in view of the fact that "Chüeh-lun" is distinctly characterized by Yi Ching as an island
[scanner's note: the following is the exact text from the original article and it makes no sense.]
sinologist, identifies Chüeh-lun with Puler Condore. He also affirms that, at the time of Yi Ching's visit, the inhabitants of that island were negroes.
(3) In the "Yi Ching Ta T'ang Hsi Yü Ch'iu Fa Kao Seng Chuan" ("Yi Ching's Biographies of Famous Monks of the Tang Dynasty who went to the West in search of the Law"), the following statement occurs: "When he reached the land of Fo Yi (Sriboga), he learned the Ku-lun language and devoted much time to the study of Sanskrit." Ku-lun is the same as K'un-lun, and the land of Fo Yi is the region of Palembang in Sumatra. From this it appears that the K'un-lun language was by no means confined to Puler Condore.
(4) In the "Man Shu" ("Book about Barbarians"), volume VI, we have the following: "The River Liang Shui flows southwest to join the River Lung. Further south it skirts the highway which goes to the Ch'ing-mu Mountains, and continues southward until it reaches the land of K'un-lun." In the Geographical Section of the Chiu T'ang Shu, mention is made of a district (hsien) called Liang Shui in the county (chou) of Li. In the same volume, we further read: "In the towns of Wei-yuan, Feng-yi, Li-yün, there are over one hundred salt wells. Ten tribes including the Mang-nai-tao and the Hei Ch'ih ("Black Teeth") inhabit the region in question. From this locality a journey of ten days brings the traveller to Yung-ch'ang. Thence it is thirty-days' journey downstream to the land of Mi-ch'en. Further south one reaches the sea, across which it is a three-days' voyage to the land of K'un-lun."
In volume X of the same work, we find the following passage: "The northern frontier of the land of K'un-lun is eighty-one days' journey from the Hsi-erh River in the land of Man (i.e. of the "Barbarians"). The country abounds in ebony, sandalwood, spices, glazed wares, crystal, medicinal herbs, precious stones, rhinoceroses, etc. Once upon a time the Barbarians invaded this land lured on by a feigned retreat of the natives, who cut off their return by digging a moat which they filled with water. As a result most of the Barbarians died of starvation, and, before permitting those who survived to leave, the natives amputated their left forearms as a warning."
(5) In the Wang Wu Tien Chu Kuo Chuan ("A Record of travels in the Five Indies") by Hui Ch'ao, the following statement occurs: "To reach India and K'unlun, one must go by way of Gandahara."
In the section of the same work which treats of Persia, it says: "Voyages from the Western Sea to the Southern Seas are frequently made for the purpose of procuring precious merchandise from Ceylon and gold from K'unlun, and they even sail as far as Canton to secure silk and other textiles."
(6) Book CDLXXXIX of the Sung Shih ("Dynastic History of the Sung") contains the "Cheh-po Kuo Chuan" ("Topography of the Land of Cheh-po"), in which is to be found the following passage: "It is a month's journey from the eastern frontier to the sea, and from the sea it is a voyage of a fortnight to reach the land of Kunlun. A voyage to the west for 45 days, then to the south for 3 days, and finally along the coast for 5 days more, brings the traveler to Arabia."
Hence, according to the data contained in works of the T'ang (A.D. 618-907) and Sung (A.D. 960-1280) dynasties, it would appear that the Land of K'un-lien is identical with modern Siam. These works, however, only describe the inhabitants as being woolly-haired and black-skinned; they nowhere describe them as being ugly nor do they ever make use of the term K'unlun-nu
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The Buddhist lexicographer Ruilin includes an entry on "The language of kunlun" in his dictionary Yiqie jing yinyi (The Sounds and Meanings of All the Scriptures), compiled between 783 and 820.28 Huilin uses the tenn kunlun as a category to describe dark-skinned people from the islands of the South Pacific:
quote:Kunlun can also be written as gulun. They are the non-Chinese peoples from the east, those from the island states of the Southern Seas. Their bodies are black.... There are many types of them, including the zanj, the turmi, the kurdang, and the khmer. They are all base peoples. These countries lack ritual and propriety. They steal in order to live, and love to feed on humans for food, as if they were some sort of rakshas or a kind of evil ghost. The words they speak do not have any correct meaning at all.... They do extremely well when they enter the water, since they can stay
Though "Black" could easily be dark skinned people that were darker than the average Tang Chinese. The important thing is that the Chinese as far back as the Tang dynasty as well as the Zanj and others attest to the presence of dark skinned people in S.E Asia, this is not an Afrocentric invention but a notion back hundreds of years backed up by primary and secondary sources.
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I do believe that dark Negrito-ish people might have ranged further north in East Asia thousands of years ago. I'd even go so far as to speculate that they might have been present in subtropical South China itself at one point, with the lighter Sundadont and then Sinodont peoples (ethnic Chinese being the latter) arriving in the region later from the far northeast. Those ancient written records you mention there are quite interesting, Jari.
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By the way, this is from that essay on "Magical Kunlun" that Jari posted earlier:
quote:(History of the Jin) describes Empress Li, a concubine of Emperor Xiao Wuwen (373-397): "...she was tall and her coloring was black. All the people in the palace used to call her kunlun." Was the term kunlun synonymous with dark skin? This anecdote comes from a history of the Jin dynasty (265-420), before African slaves had been imported into China and before the Chinese had made significant contacts with Southeast Asian countries. 4 So when and why did the term kunlun take on this meaning?
Wait, who would this Empress Li chick have been? How could she have been Empress (as in, like a consort to the Emperor himself) if she was a "concubine"? Come to think of it, who was her hubby Xiao Wuwen anyway? I haven't been able to find much information about him elsewhere on the Internet. Not even Wikipedia has an article on the dude.
I'm just sayin', if there was an Emperor of China who had a black woman for his wife, you'd think there would have been way more investigation into their history.
UPDATE: Punos_Rey was kind enough to share with me more information about Empress Li. Seems it was a Cinderella story for her, with her becoming the Empress despite other concubines hating on her for being black.
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Yeah the Chinese system was totally different than say the European system of Palace politics, Concubines could rise and wield power if they played their cards right.
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No where does it say she was Black. It says she had black or dark skin. Why would you mislead like that?
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: By the way, this is from that essay on "Magical Kunlun" that Jari posted earlier:
quote:(History of the Jin) describes Empress Li, a concubine of Emperor Xiao Wuwen (373-397): "...she was tall and her coloring was black. All the people in the palace used to call her kunlun." Was the term kunlun synonymous with dark skin? This anecdote comes from a history of the Jin dynasty (265-420), before African slaves had been imported into China and before the Chinese had made significant contacts with Southeast Asian countries. 4 So when and why did the term kunlun take on this meaning?
Wait, who would this Empress Li chick have been? How could she have been Empress (as in, like a consort to the Emperor himself) if she was a "concubine"? Come to think of it, who was her hubby Xiao Wuwen anyway? I haven't been able to find much information about him elsewhere on the Internet. Not even Wikipedia has an article on the dude.
I'm just sayin', if there was an Emperor of China who had a black woman for his wife, you'd think there would have been way more investigation into their history.
UPDATE: Punos_Rey was kind enough to share with me more information about Empress Li. Seems it was a Cinderella story for her, with her becoming the Empress despite other concubines hating on her for being black.
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I don't see the problem. Because modern Chinese vary in term of pigmentation and I find it hard to believe the ancient Chinese saw tan skin as exceptionally dark because there are depiction or darker people in Chinese art.
WHEN this little book was first published in an Italian edition in 1895, and in a German edition in 1897, I was still unable to obtain many anthropological data needed to complete tha picture of the primitive inhabitants of Europe. In the English edition the book is less incomplete, richer in anthropological and ethnological documents, and hence more conclusive; it also contains replies to various objections which have been brought forward. This English edition, therefore, is not so much a translation of a work already published as a new book, both in form and arrangement
The conclusions I have sought to maintain are the following :- +
(1.) The primitive populations of Europe, after Homo Neandertkalensis, originated in Africa; these constituted the entire population of Neolithic times.
(2.) The basin of the Mediterranean was the chief centre of movement whence the African migrations reached the centre and the north of Europe.
(3.) From the great African stock were formed three varieties, in accordance with differing telluric and geographic conditions: one,.,peculiarly African, remaining in the continent where it originated; another, .the Mediterranean, which occupied the basin of that sea; and a third, the Nordtic:, which reached the north of Europe. These three varieties are the three great branches of one species, which I call Eurafrican, because it occupied, and still occupies, a large portion of the two continents of Africa and Europe.
(4) These three human varieties have nothing in common with the so-called Aryan races; it is an error to maintain that the Germans and the Scandinavians, blond dolichocephals or long-heads (of the Reihengraber and Viking types), are Aryans; they . are Eurafricans of the Nordic variety.
(5.) The Aryans are of Asiatic origin, and constitute a variety of the Eurafrican: species,• the physical characters of their skeletons are different from those of the Eurafricans.
(6.) The primitive civilisation of the Eurafricans is Afro-Mediterranean, becoming eventually AfroEuropean.
(7.) The Mycenrean civilisation had its origin in Asia, and was transformed by diffusion in the Mediterranean.
(8.) The two classic civilisations, Greek and Latin; were not Aryan, but Mediterranean. The Aryans were savages when they invaded Europe: they destroyed in part the superior civilisation of the Neolithic populations, and could not have created the Greco-Latin civilization
(9.) In the course of the Aryan invasions the languages of the Eurafrican species in Europe were transformed in Italy, Greece, and elsewhere, Celtic, German, Slavonic, etc., being genuine branches of the Aryan tongue; in other cases the Aryan languages underwent a transformation, preserving some elements of the conquered tongues, as in the NeoCeltic of Wales. Some of these conclusions no longer arouse the same opposition as when I first brought them forward. The arguments meeting with most resistance are those tending to overthrow the ancient conception of an Aryan civilization.
THE FUTURE WILL ENABLE US TO SEE THESE QUESTIONS MORE CLEARLY. G. SERGI.
ROME, Feoruary, 1901."
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quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: No where does it say she was Black. It says she had black or dark skin. Why would you mislead like that?
We don't know what her ethnic heritage would have been, assuming she was a real historical person. I do find a modern Southeast Asian or even Negrito phenotype less likely though. Not only do they describe her as "black", but also "tall" to an unusual degree. AFAIK Southeast Asians, and for that matter southern Chinese, tend not to stand out as so tall compared to more northerly Chinese. Neither do Negrito people, for that matter. Maybe she or her family had come all the way from Africa?
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India is close to China so she could've been there but I've seen a YouTube video about a group in the region called liqian whose phenotype is supposedly derived from a loss Roman army. The striking thing that stood out was as African ancestry from about 10,000 years ago. From 4:15-4:20
. THE TERM "AFROCENTRIC WAS CREATED BY AN AFRICAN AMERICAN IN 1960 AND THE INTELLECTUAL MOVEMENT CALLED "AFROCENTRICTY" WAS BORN IN THE 1980's by a book of that name written by another African American"
The actual term Afrocentric was coined by W. E. B. Du Bois only in the early 1962. Du Bois wrote that his proposed Encyclopedia Africana would be "unashamedly Afro-centric" in focus. Molefe Asante (born Arthur Lee Smith Jr.) resurrected the term in his 1980 work, Afrocentricity, injecting new energy into an old approach to the study of Africans and their descendants. By the late 1980s, the term Afrocentric was used to describe a range of thinkers, from mainstream historians like Sterling Stuckey to more controversial scholars like Leonard Jeffries, Yosef Ben-Jochannan and Chancellor Williams.
Though Diop is sometimes referred to as an Afrocentrist, he predates the concept and thus was not himself an Afrocentric scholar. Diop's first work translated into English, The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality, was published in 1974. The words afrocentricty, afrocentrism or afrocentric do not appear in the book nor in earlier authors, many but not all American, predecessors to Afrocentrsism such as Edward Wilmot Blyden, Dr. Carter G. Woodson, Drusilla Dunjee Houston and George G. M. James
_____________________________________________
.
AFROCENTRICITY The International Encyclopedia of Communication Theory and Philosophy, 4 ... . _________________________________________________________
The Educational Thought of W.E.B. Du Bois: An Intellectual History By Derrick P. Alridge
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: India is close to China so she could've been there but I've seen a YouTube video about a group in the region called liqian whose phenotype is supposedly derived from a loss Roman army. The striking thing that stood out was as African ancestry from about 10,000 years ago. From 4:15-4:20
I suppose a southern Indian origin is also possible for Empress Li. But looking at maps of average human height around the world (e.g. this one), Indians don't seem to surpass Chinese on that metric either. Unless we find out that Indian people grew much taller in 300-400 AD than they do today, I question how likely it is that "tall and black" Li was from India.
Anyway a core component of Afrocentrism or what modern day Afrocentrism advocates is that Black people or people with Dark Skin were the original inhabitants and creators of majority if not all of the worlds civilizations. To various extremes some people go as far as claim that people such as the Vikings and Chinese as being "originally black" While others claim that the original natives were black and were absorbed by lighter tribes or simply adapted to their less tropical enviroments. While some Afrocentrics simply focus on Africa only.
I'm not sure that is the primary core component of Afrocentrism put forth by Molefi Asante, Asa Hillard, John Henrik Clarke or their predecessor Cheikh Anta Diop but is more focused on by Runoko Rashidi and to an extent Iven Van Sertima and Dr. Winters also the term "Africoid" has sometimes used in this context by some authors
Rashidi the author or editor of 18 books including
The African Presence in Early Asia (1985, 1988, 1995), with Ivan Van Sertima,
What of the African Presence in Early China December 14, 2018
RUNOKO RASHIDI
What of the African presence in early China? Have there been Black people in China?
If so, what became of them? What happened to the Black people of early China? Are they still there? These are profound questions. Indeed, the African presence in China is perhaps the most challenging area of research within the broad realm of the African presence in Asia. Challenging though it may be, however, it is not an area that can be dismissed. Chancellor Williams, for example, in his classic Destruction of Black Civilization, noted that:
“Ancient China and the Far East, for example, must be a special area of African research. How do we explain such a large population of Blacks in Southern China, powerful enough to form a kingdom of their own?”
While in September 1998, a scientific study posted in the Los Angeles Times concluded that:
“Most of the population of modern China–one fifth of all the people living today–owes its genetic origins to Africa.”
So there is little doubt that in the early ages of China a Black presence was prevalent. Now what of African presence in the great civilizations of China?
Le Tigresse is by far the most spectacular of such vessels.
Le Tigresse is from the late Shang Dynasty period, about 1250 B.C.E. It is from Hunan Province and measures about two feet high. The vessel was intended to hold fermented beverages and is unquestionably the most famous and splendid object in the Cernuschi Museum. The vessel depicts a feline, a tigress with an open mouth, holding a small human in a close embrace with its front paws. For years I had thought of the small human figure as a child. But on closer inspection it appears that it may well be an adult. Is it a Diminutive Africoid? Whether adult or child, the features are clearly Africoid and may well be a depiction of one of the Diminutive Africoid types associated with early China, protected in the powerful embrace of a tigress.
Article by: Runoko Rashidi. Original article appeared in True Culture University
. ________________________________________________ There is also some influence from late 19th century English author Gerald Massey and 18th century Godfrey Higgins
quote:Originally posted by Tunchie: Early 20th century European "Afrocentrics"
"THE MEDITERRANEAN RACE
THE FUTURE WILL ENABLE US TO SEE THESE QUESTIONS MORE CLEARLY. G. SERGI. ROME, Feoruary, 1901."
Wiki quote:
Giuseppe Sergi (March 20, 1841 – October 17, 1936) was an Italian anthropologist of the early twentieth century, best known for his opposition to Nordicism in his books on the racial identity of Mediterranean peoples. He rejected existing racial typologies that identified Mediterranean peoples as "dark whites" because they implied a Nordicist conception of Mediterranean peoples descending from whites who had become racially mixed with non-whites which he claimed was false. His concept of the Mediterranean race, identified Mediterranean peoples as being an autonomous brown race and he claimed that the Nordic race was descended from the Mediterranean race whose skin had depigmented to a pale complexion after it moved north. This concept became important to the modelling of racial difference in the early twentieth century.
Tunchie - were you trying to make fun of him, or are you praising him?
I came just to ask you that.
It's a question of hope, or still no hope.
His analysis was on point. His "views" don't mean a damn thing, as long as his work kept it professional. To even bring that up is a silly reason to place doubt on the facts that the man laid out.
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I wonder how many people taking part in this conversation about African Americans are even "African Americans" (or even black) lol. Just a thought!
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That is totally insane! It is like saying a Japanese or Chinese or any light or pale skin person is white! This reminds me of those Black Hebrew Israelites who blackwash history. They will claim anyone with a hint of melanin is a black person, which is retarded.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: No where does it say she was Black. It says she had black or dark skin. Why would you mislead like that?
some people on Egyptsearch define "Black person" as anybody with dark skin
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A "maybe" does not give anyone right to claim she was Black. That is really misleading and bordering outright lying.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: No where does it say she was Black. It says she had black or dark skin. Why would you mislead like that?
We don't know what her ethnic heritage would have been, assuming she was a real historical person. I do find a modern Southeast Asian or even Negrito phenotype less likely though. Not only do they describe her as "black", but also "tall" to an unusual degree. AFAIK Southeast Asians, and for that matter southern Chinese, tend not to stand out as so tall compared to more northerly Chinese. Neither do Negrito people, for that matter. Maybe she or her family had come all the way from Africa?
posted
I am black and my ancestors did not look like those people in hair texture and facial features. They only thing we share is black skin color (assuming the accuracy of the paint.) Are you prepared to tell me these people are Black?
and these people are white?
quote:Originally posted by davey3:
quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: A "maybe" does not give anyone right to claim she was Black. That is really misleading and bordering outright lying.
No Lanoforge, whats really really misleading and outright lying is what your people do!
Consider this, with you being from New York, if you were Black, THIS is what YOUR ANCESTORS would have looked like.
quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: That is totally insane! It is like saying a Japanese or Chinese or any light or pale skin person is white! This reminds me of those Black Hebrew Israelites who blackwash history. They will claim anyone with a hint of melanin is a black person, which is retarded.
In regards to your response, this article speaks about how Europeans originally described East Asians, before the 19th century.
Before Asians were called yellow, they were called white
How did East Asians come to be referred to as yellow-skinned? It was the result of a series of racial mappings of the world and had nothing to do with the actual color of people’s skin.
In fact, when complexion was mentioned by an early Western traveler or missionary or ambassador (and it very often wasn’t, because skin color as a racial marker was not fully in place until the 19th century), East Asians were almost always called white, particularly during the period of first modern contact in the 16th century.
And on a number of occasions, even more revealingly, the people were termed “as white as we are.”
But by the 17th century, the Chinese and Japanese were “darkening” in published texts, gradually losing their erstwhile whiteness when it became clear they would remain unwilling to participate in European systems of trade, religion, and international relations.
An illustration of ‘Asiatic peoples’ from a 1904 Swedish textbook. Photo: Handout
Calling them white, in other words, was not based on simple perception either and had less to do with pigmentation than their presumed levels of civilization, culture, literacy, and obedience (particularly if they should become Christianized). The term “yellow” occasionally began to appear towards the end of the 18th century and then really took hold of the Western imagination in the 19th.
In 1735 Swedish botanist and physician Carl Linnaeus decided that varieties of homo sapiens could be similarly separated into four continental types, one of which was called homo asiaticus. The color of that group, he said, was fuscus, which can be best translated as “dark.” In 1758, fuscus was silently changed to luridus, meaning “lurid,” “sallow” or “pale yellow.”
In 1795, the German anatomist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach offered a five-race scheme that featured what might be called our first unequivocal labeling of Asian yellowness, couched in a bizarre series of comparisons that stressed the relative decay or lifelessness of the so-called intermediate races. This human variety, he wrote, was “yellow [gilvus] or the color of boxwood, halfway between grains of wheat and cooked quinces, or the color of sucked out and dried lemon peel: familiar to the Mongolian peoples.”
This human variety, he wrote, was “yellow [gilvus] or the color of boxwood, halfway between grains of wheat and cooked quinces, or the color of sucked out and dried lemon peel: familiar to the Mongolian peoples.”
Different kinds of ‘Mongolians.’ Photo: Handout
The most significant aspect of Blumenbach’s conception was that for the first time all the peoples of the East had been lumped together into an explicitly racial category, here called the Mongolian.
“Yellow” was thus a racial marker that had meaning only in relation to the other colors, all of which were defined as against white “normality.” The yellow race became invested with associations that insured that its physical and cultural features were different (or, rather, deviant) from the white European norm.
And for other thinkers far more racially virulent than Blumenbach, the races became part of an explicit hierarchy with European white at the top and African black at the bottom, with the “intermediate” races somewhere in the middle.
The ‘Mongolian spot,’ a kind of non-permanent birthmark which appears in about 80% of Asians and Native Americans, and 46% of Latin Americans. Photo: Handout
Nineteenth-century medical discourse did much to define the contours of the yellow race, although the emphasis here was on “Mongolianness” rather than color. Medical research frequently attempted to define the race as embodying certain physical conditions that distinguished them from Caucasians, including the “Mongolian eyefold” (a fold of skin covering the inner corner of the eye), “Mongolian spots” (congenital bluish marks appearing in infants on their lower back or buttocks), and “Mongolism,” today known as Down syndrome.
Each of these conditions was at first supposed to be endemic to the Mongolian race only, and purported to show how the yellow race differed from the healthy and fully developed normality of white European bodies.
It was at the end of the 19th century that the notion of yellow became canonized in European languages (and East Asian ones). This was the invention of the so-called Yellow Peril in 1895, brought into worldwide circulation by an illustration made after a drawing by Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany and designed as a call to arms for European nations to protect themselves from the potential onslaught of East Asian military aggression, social degradation, and emigration to the West.
Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany popularized the so-called Yellow Peril. Photo: Handout
The most immediate danger at this time, it was perceived, came from Japan, which had recently defeated both Russia and China in armed conflict and had begun to build an empire of its own.
It was also at this time that ideas about a yellow race began to be imported into East Asian cultures themselves, along with many other facets of modern Western science and technology.
As might be expected there were a wide variety of responses, rejections, and incorporations, not only to the idea that there were yellow people but also to the contention that all East Asians could be lumped together into a single racial category.
In China, for example, the idea of the yellow race was often seen as an appealing notion since yellow was such a significant color in Chinese culture (such as the Yellow River, the birthplace of Chinese civilization, and the Yellow Emperor, said to be the ancestor of all Chinese).
In Japan, however, yellow carried no such positive associations and the color category was frequently rejected.
“The Chinese were yellow,” it was sometimes said, “not we Japanese, who are far superior to the Chinese and on a par with the Western imperial powers.”
Yellow was a fantasy like all other racial groupings. It cannot be traced back before the end of the 18th century, and it had no basis in anything other than an attempt to distance certain peoples of the world from an equally fantasized concept of whiteness.
Is it not time that we stopped using this term? Why are we still calling people yellow?
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^^^ Thanks for posting this as it bolsters my contention. Because one may share some phenotype trait with another does not necessarily mean they belong to the same stock or pedigree. It appears we have colorists on this forum who cluster people based on solely one physical trait, that being, color. I used the Japanese and Chinese argument to illustrate if we apply that same rule then those people would cluster with White Europeans. I think there is more than one trait to group people and define them "racially." What about hair texture and facial features? Why are those traits ignored?
Posts: 59 | From: Queens NYC | Registered: Jul 2019
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
quote:Originally posted by Tunchie: I wonder how many people taking part in this conversation about African Americans are even "African Americans" (or even black) lol. Just a thought!
As I said, YOU are probably NOT African yourself!
So WHO are YOU???
Pick one!
The two top paintings are not of Amerindians, but Africans. The top portrait I assume depicts Maroons, base on how they dress and where there from, the island of St. Vincent. The last portrait depicts indigenous Americans from the Western coast of the United States.
Example of attire of the Maroons:
Sir William Young signing a peace treaty with Chatoyer and his men (the Garifuna of St Vincent) in 1773
Posts: 331 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
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The above illustration is from a book translated by the bookseller John Ogilby from the original Dutch in 1670. The book "America" provides an account of the newly discovered lands in the Americas. Although it is inaccurate, often including fanciful tales of mythical beasts and locations such as the Fountain of Youth
John Ogilby published 'America', translated from Arnold Montanus' Dutch text. However, Ogilby added fresh material on the English colonies, supplied by the Proprietors of the various colonies.
This original copper-plate engraved antique print, engraving to text, of Native American Indians of New Amsterdam, New York by Arnoldus Montanus was published in the English translation of Arnoldus Montanus
De Nieuwe en Onbekende Weereld: of beschryving van America en t Zuid-Land
(translation: America, Being an Accurate Description of the New World) .
Montanus, Arnoldus 1625–1683 Montanus was a Dutch teacher and author. He published books on theology, history, and geography of both the Netherlands and far-away countries.
Montanus never visited the New World and his work contains numerous errors and fantastic conceptions about the people and animals of the Americas.
_________________________________
The first person written accounts would be more reliable than unknown artists who often were never at the physical locations themselves and looking at the text accompanying the above illustration there is a discrepancy
starting at the bottom of page 175 of 'America" and then leading to the illustration on page 176 and following text we find the following descriptions of these native New Yorkers
p175 " the inhabitants have their hair black as jet, harsh like horse hair"
and
p176 Both men and women go for the most part bare headed, the women tie their hair behind in a tuft, over which they wear a square cap wrought with sea shells
175
176
176 _______________________________________
^^ Even these written parts are compiled and the original source of the description may not be listed
So the better sources are writing by people known to have visited the places they are talking about. I quoted one earlier in the post describing New York Indians. Johannes Megapolensis was a pastor of the Dutch Reformed Church in the Dutch colony of New Netherland (present-day New York state in the United States), beginning in 1642. Serving for several years at Fort Orange (present-day Albany, New York) on the upper Hudson River, he is credited with being the first Protestant missionary to the Indians in North America. He later served as a minister in Manhattan, staying through the takeover by the English in 1664.
The minister is best known as the author of A Short Account of the Mohawk Indians, their Country, Language, Figure, Costume, Religion, and Government, first published from his letters by friends in 1644 in North Holland, and being translated into English in 1792 and printed in Philadelphia. He is also known for having assisted the French missionary, Father Isaac Jogues in the 1643
The excerpts below are from the writings of the Reverend Johannes Megapolensis in 1644.
"They look at themselves constantly, and think they are very fine. They make themselves stockings and also shoes of deer skin, or they take leaves of their corn, and plait them together and use them for shoes. The women, as well as the men, go with their heads bare. The women let their hair grow very long, and tie it together a little, and let it hang down their backs. The men have a long lock of hair hanging down, some on one side of the head, and some on both sides. On the top of their heads they have a streak of hair from the forehead to the neck, about the breadth of three fingers, and this they shorten until it is about two or three fingers long, and it stands right on end like a cock's comb or hog's bristles; on both sides of this cock's comb they cut all the hair short, except the aforesaid locks, and they also leave on the bare places here and there small locks, such as are in sweeping-brushes, and then they are in fine array."
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While I applaud what you are doing, why are you including me?
quote:Originally posted by davey3:
quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: ^^^ Thanks for posting this as it bolsters my contention. Because one may share some phenotype trait with another does not necessarily mean they belong to the same stock or pedigree. It appears we have colorists on this forum who cluster people based on solely one physical trait, that being, color. I used the Japanese and Chinese argument to illustrate if we apply that same rule then those people would cluster with White European. I think there is more than one trait to group or people to define them "racially." What about hair texture and facial features? Why are those traits ignored?
.
I am here to expose (lovely Red and White) propagandists like yourself.
.
Do you understand what this quote is saying and means regarding the Human Race?
quote:Originally posted by Tunchie: His analysis was on point. His "views" don't mean a damn thing, as long as his work kept it professional. To even bring that up is a silly reason to place doubt on the facts that the man laid out.
Was there ANY part of this that you understood?
Did you even try?
Anyway - it completely disproves the nonsense of Sergi.
"Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements," Ricaut, F. X. and Waelkens, M (2008). Human Biology: Vol. 80: Iss. 5, Article 5.
What tf are talking about? Ricaut 08 and Fergi go HAND AND HAND! Both assert that that black Africans (more specifically in Ricaut "Niger-Congo speakers) were a pivotal part of early Northeastern African populations including Dynastic Kemet. Both researchers from opposite ends of the century assert that black Africans migrated into "Western Asia" and eventually Europe. Both studies state that "Indo Europeans/Aryans invaded the regions and civilizations set up by the earlier black African migrants. Fergi took a step further by TELLING THE BLUNT TRUTH that the Aryans were a "savage" plague that destroyed the civilizations of the once all ancient black World, and then says essentially that they were too STUPID (remember they were nomadic raw meat eating speechless CAVE PEOPLE) to replace the civilizations with those of the same quality.
Posts: 15 | From: The Ville | Registered: Aug 2019
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quote:Originally posted by Lanoforge: A "maybe" does not give anyone right to claim she was Black. That is really misleading and bordering outright lying.
Dude, I'm not going to revive the tired old debate on who gets to be called "black" here. You have no more claim to authority on who gets to be "black" than anyone else on ES. And no, capitalizing the first letter of "black" as if it were some sort of nationality or ethnic group (on par with Nigerian or Masai) isn't going to make it more specific.
However, if you have a problem with me "implying" she could have been African (in case you meant to synonymize "Black" with African), where else in the Old World do you find dark-skinned people who can have taller stature which she was described as having? I've already pointed out that Indians tend not to be that tall (same with Southeast Asians and even South Chinese) by North Chinese standards, and Negritos wouldn't been called "little black people" if they weren't relatively short as well (they're like African "pygmy" people in that respect).
quote:Originally posted by Tunchie: [qb] I wonder how many people taking part in this conversation about African Americans are even "African Americans" (or even black) lol. Just a thought!
Chances are, you are NOT either!
This is APPARENTLY you silently admitting that this a forum has now become full of non black people trying to promote a watered down version of Afrocentrism. All the while blocking real Afrocentrics like Clyde Winters and XYman. We all know over on ES search and a few other "secret" black forums what's going on over here.
Now if you want to see me 23 and me then I can certainly provide it.
Posts: 15 | From: The Ville | Registered: Aug 2019
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
The two top paintings are not of Amerindians, but Africans. The top portrait I assume depicts Maroons, base on how they dress and where there from, the island of St. Vincent. The last portrait depicts indigenous Americans from the Western coast of the United States.
Baalberith - I am well used to people who try to use these boards to spew lies and misinformation.
I don’t quite understand what you mean, are you insisting that I’m lying? Especially since you posted the evidence identifying the individuals in the two portraits.
Posts: 331 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
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"But while Elizabeth may have enjoyed being entertained by Black people, in the 1590s she also issued proclamations against them. In 1596 she wrote to the lord mayors of major cities noting that there were 'of late divers blackmoores brought into this realm, of which kind of people there are already here to manie...'. She ordered that 'those kinde of people should be sente forth of the land'.”
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Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas on 18 June, 1452. It authorized Alfonso V of Portugal to reduce any “Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery. This facilitated the Portuguese slave trade from West Africa.
The same pope wrote the bull Romanus Pontifex on January 5, 1455 to the same Alfonso. As a follow-up to the Dum diversas, it extended to the Catholic nations of Europe dominion over discovered lands during the Age of Discovery. Along with sanctifying the seizure of non-Christian lands, it encouraged the enslavement of native, non-Christian peoples in Africa and the New World.
1492 Battle of Granada - January 2 - Ferdinand II of Aragon defeated the last Muslim kingdom in Andalusia, Granada of sultan Boabdil
1492 - Columbus reaches America.
The year 1452, the year 1466, the year 1492, the year 1493, the year 1591:
1591 feb 28, The Sultan of Morocco launched his successful attack to capture Timbuktu. Morocco sent soldiers under the Muslim Spaniard Judar Pasha to conquer Songhai. After a five month journey across the Sahara, Pasha arrived, his soldiers carried guns and Gao. The 25,000 men of the Songhai were no match for the guns, Timbuktu and most of Songhai fall. The Songhai had guns too. But most of them didn’t know yet, how the gun worked. A lot of books were taken to Morocco.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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For sake of the argument I will do something unusual and post wiki sources, but with some digging you'll find original "credible" sources.
"The Niño Brothers were a family of sailors from the town of Moguer (in Huelva, Andalusia, Spain), who participated actively in Christopher Columbus's first voyage—generally considered to constitute the discovery of the Americas by Europeans—and other subsequent voyages to the New World." [...] "The Niños took part as well in Columbus's second and third voyages. Between 1499 and 1501 they traveled on their own account, with the merchants Cristóbal and Luis Guerra, following the route of Columbus's third voyage to the Gulf of Paria on the South American mainland in what is now Venezuela."
"Estevanico(c. 1500–1539) ("Little Esteban") was one of the first Muslims to reach the present-day continental United States. He is known as Esteban de Dorantes, Estebanico, and Esteban the Moor, or Mustafa Azemmouri.[1] Enslaved as a youth by the ruling Portuguese, he was sold to a Spanish nobleman and taken in 1527 on the Spanish Narváez expedition to establish a colony in Florida. He was one of four survivors among 300 men who explored the peninsula. By late 1528 the group had been reduced to 80 men, who survived being washed ashore at Galveston Island after an effort to sail homemade crafts across the Gulf of Mexico."
Afrocentrism is a field of study began by Afro-Americans. Afro-Americans with PhD's: DuBois, Carter G. Woodson, myself and others built the Afrocentric research tradition. Moses J. Wilson, has noted that “The actual term Afrocentric was coined by W. E. B. Du Bois only in the early 1962. Du Bois wrote that his proposed Encyclopedia Africana would be "unashamedly Afro-centric" in focus . Molefe Asante (born Arthur Lee Smith Jr.) resurrected the term in his 1980 work, Afrocentricity, injecting new energy into an old approach to the study of Africans and their descendants. By the late 1980s, the term Afrocentric was used to describe a range of thinkers, from mainstream historians like Sterling Stuckey to more controversial scholars like Leonard Jeffries, Yosef Ben-Jochannan and Chancellor Williams. “ You have to remember, that Knowledge is cumulative. In other words we build new knowledge on the research of the giants in our field.
My research like the research of most 20th Century Afrocentrist is based on the work of DuBois, i.e., the Negro and The World and Africa. Even Diop made it clear that DuBois was his inspiration. Afrocentrism, is a mature social science that was founded by Afro-Americans almost 200 years ago. These men and women provided scholarship based on contemporary archaeological and historical research the African/Black origination of civilization throughout the world. These Afro-American scholars, mostly trained at Harvard University (one of the few Universities that admitted Blacks in the 19th Century) provide the scientific basis the global role played by African people in civilizing the world. Afrocentrism and the africalogical study of ancient Black civilizations was began by Afro-Americans. The foundation of any mature science is its articulation in an authoritive text (Kuhn, 1996, 136). The africalogical textbooks published by Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) provided the vocabulary themes for further afrocentric social science research. The pedagogy for ancient africalogical research was well established by the end of the 19th century by African American researchers well versed in the classical languages and knowledge of Greek and Latin. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) in the Freedom Journal, were the first African Americans to discuss and explain the "Ancient Model" of history.
These afrocentric social scientists used the classics to prove that the Blacks founded civilization in Egypt, Ethiopia, Babylon and Ninevah. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) made it clear that archaeological research supported the classical, or "Ancient Model" of history.
Edward Blyden (1869) also used classical sources to discuss the ancient history of African people. In his work he not only discussed the evidence for Blacks in West Asia and Egypt, he also discussed the role of Blacks in ancient America (Blyden, 1869, 78).
By 1883, africalogical researchers began to publish book on African American history. G.W. Williams (1883) wrote the first textbook on African American history. In the History of the Negro Race in America, Dr. Williams provided the schema for all future africalogical history text.
Dr. Williams (1883) confirmed the classical traditions for Blacks founding civilization in both Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia) and West Asia. In addition, to confirming the "Ancient Model" of history, Dr. Williams (1883) also mentioned the presence of Blacks in Indo-China and the Malay Peninsula. Dr. Williams was trained at Howard.
A decade later R.L. Perry (1893) also presented evidence to confirm the classical traditions of Blacks founding Egypt, Greece and the Mesopotamian civilization. He also provided empirical evidence for the role of Blacks in Phoenicia, thus increasing the scope of the ASAH paradigms.
Pauline E. Hopkins (1905) added further articulation of the ASAH paradigms of the application of these paradigms in understanding the role of Blacks in West Asia and Africa. Hopkins (1905) provided further confirmation of the role of Blacks in Southeast Asia, and expanded the scope of africalogical research to China (1905).
This review of the 19th century africalogical social scientific research indicate confirmation of the "Ancient Model" for the early history of Blacks. We also see a movement away from self-published africalogical research, and publication of research, and the publication of research articles on afrocentric themes, to the publication of textbooks.
It was in these books that the paradigms associated with the "Ancient Model" and ASAH were confirmed, and given reliability by empirical research. It was these texts which provided the pedagogic vehicles for the perpetuation of the africalogical normal social science.
The afrocentric textbooks of Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) proved the reliability and validity of the ASAH paradigms. The discussion in these text of contemporary scientific research findings proving the existence of ancient civilizations in Egypt, Nubia-Sudan (Kush), Mesopotamia, Palestine and North Africa lent congruency to the classical literature which pointed to the existence of these civilizations and these African origins ( i.e., the children of Ham= Khem =Kush?).
The authors of the africalogical textbooks reported the latest archaeological and anthropological findings. The archaeological findings reported in these textbooks added precision to their analysis of the classical and Old Testament literature. This along with the discovery of artifacts on the ancient sites depicting Black\African people proved that the classical and Old Testament literature, as opposed to the "Aryan Model", objectively identified the Black\African role in ancient history. And finally, these textbooks confirmed that any examination of references in the classical literature to Blacks in Egypt, Kush, Mesopotamia and Greece\Crete exhibited constancy to the evidence recovered from archaeological excavations in the Middle East and the Aegean. They in turn disconfirmed the "Aryan Model", which proved to be a falsification of the authentic history of Blacks in early times.
The creation of africalogical textbooks provided us with a number of facts revealing the nature of the afrocentric ancient history paradigms. They include a discussion of:
1) the artifacts depicting Blacks found at ancient sites
recovered through archaeological excavation;
2) the confirmation of the validity of the classical and Old
Testament references to Blacks as founders of civilization in Africa and Asia;
3) the presence of isolated pockets of Blacks existing outside Africa; and
4) that the contemporary Arab people in modern Egypt are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians.
The early africalogical textbooks also outlined the africalogical themes research should endeavor to study. A result, of the data collected by the africalogical ancient history research pioneers led to the development of three facts by the end of the 19th century, which needed to be solved by the afrocentric paradigms: (1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;
(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;
(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;
(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.
As you can see the structure of Afrocentrism were made long before Boas and the beginning of the 20th Century. In fact , I would not be surprised if Boas learned what he talked about from the early Afrocentric researchers discussed in this post.
As you can see Afro-Americans have be writing about the Global history of ancient Black civilizations for almost 200 years. It was Afro-Americans who first mentioned the African civilizations of West Africa and the Black roots of Egypt. These Afro-Americans made Africa a historical part of the world.
Afro-American scholars not only highlighted African history they also discussed the African/Black civilizations developed by African people outside Africa over a hundred years before Bernal and Boas.
It was DuBois who founded the modern idea of Black/Negro Studies, especially Afro-American studies given his work on the slave trade and sociological and historical studies of Afro-Americans. He mentions in the World and Africa about the Jews and other Europeans who were attempting to take over the field.
Hansberry
There is no one who can deny the fact that Leo Hansberry founded African studies in the U.S., not the Jews. Hansberry was a professor at Howard University.
Some ignorant people believe that Bernal's, Black Athena, is the core text for Black studies. But , Bernal did not initiate any second wave of "negro/Blackcentric" study for ancient Egyptian civilization. Credit for this social science push is none other than Chiek Anta Diop, who makes it clear that he was influenced by DuBois. In fact, Black Athena, promotes the idea that Semites founded Egyptian civilization.
DuBois Africalogical study of ancient history There are four philosophical schools associated with the afrocentric study of ancient history: perennialist, essentialist, existentialist, and progressivist. The taxonomic system we use to classify the various afrocentric philosophical positions and related values affecting afrocentrism are modeled on philo-sophical developments associated with education.
We can use taxonomies of educational philosophies to discuss any proposed afrocentric curriculum because both education and philosophy are "cultural experiences". Moreover, because afrocentrism seeks to explain and delineate the story of African people, it clearly is a field of study which encompasses all aspects of the culture of Black and African people (Asante, 1990, 1991; Winters, 1994).
The perennialist afrocentrists study the great works. The adherents of this school include Martin Delaney (1978), Cornish and Russwurm (1827), Frederick Douglas (1966), and Edward Blyden (1869). These Afrocentrists see knowledge as truth, which is eternal.
The essentialist afrocentric school emphasize in their writing data that is well established through scientific research. Afrocentrists of this philosophical school include W. E. B. DuBois (1965, 1970), John Jackson (1974), C.A. Winters (1985, 1989, 1991, 1994) and Leo Hansberry (1981). They believe that as new research is published, it should be analyzed to discover how it relates to the ancient history of African and Black people to enrich our understanding of the past.
The existentialist afrocentrists believe that africalogical studies should thrive to teach African people to know more about themselves so we can have a better world. The afrocentric existentialists include J.A. Rogers, Anta Diop (1974, 1991), G.M. James (1954), Marcus Garvey (1966) and A.A. Schomburg (1979).
Research is the foundation of good science, or knowing in general. There are four methods of 1) Method of tenacity (one holds firmly to the truth, because "they know it" to be true); 2) method of authority (the method of established belief, i.e., the Bible or the "experts" says it, it is so); 3) method of intuition (the method where a proposition agrees with reason, but not necessarily with experience); and 4) the method of science (the method of attaining knowledge which calls for self-correction). To explain African origin of the Egyptians, I use the scientific method which calls for hypothesis testing, not only supported by experimentation, but also that of alternative plausible hypotheses that, may place doubt on the original hypothesis.
The aim of science is theory construction (F.N. Kirlinger, Foundations of behavior research, (1986) pp.6-10; R. Braithwaite, Scientific explanation, (1955) pp.1-10). A theory is a set of interrelated constructs, propositions and definitions, that provide a systematic understanding of phenomena by outlining relations among a group of variables that explain and predict phenomena.
Scientific inquiry involves issues of theory construction, control and experimentation. Scientific knowledge must rest on testing, rather than mere induction which can be defined as inferences of laws and generalizations, derived from observation. This falsity of logical possibility is evident in the rejection of the African origin of the Egyptians. These writers base their theories solely on observation--nonscientific knowledge is not science. Karl Popper in The Logic of Scientific Discovery, rejects this form of logical validity based solely on inference and conjecture (pp. 33-65). Popper maintains that confirmation in science, is arrived at through falsification.
Therefore to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical knowledge to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through yes of the variables associated with the theory it is confirmed. It can only be disconfirmed when new generalizations associated with the original theory fail to survive attempts at falsification.
In short, science centers on conjecture and refutation. Given 200 years of research in Afrocentrism, our job is to confirm the research into the role of Blacks in ancient history uncovered by the giants in Afrocentric Social Sciences discussed above.
Dr. Winters has written extensively on the ancient history of the African diaspora. He has numerous sites on the web were explains the ancient history of African people. His major work is Afrocentrism: Myth or Science . In Afrocentrism: Myth or Science Dr. Winters provides a detailed discussion of how to study Afrocentrism and provides an intimate and detailed study of the ancient Black civilizations outside Africa in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
The final afrocentric philosophical school is the progressivist. The afrocentric school of progressivism believes that we should have knowledge of the process and futuristic focus on afrocentric studies. The major exponent of this frame of reference is Molefi K. Asante (1991).
In general Diop (1974, 1991) caused an africalogical social scientific revolution because he was able to prove that Egypt was the archetypical civilization for many West Africans. This was an important discovery because almost all of the slaves that were sold in the United States had originally came from West Africa. Verification of the Egyptian origin of West Africans provided African Americans with relationship to the ancient Egyptians. Moreover, Diop's use of linguistics, and anthropological evidence to confirm the African origin of Egypt eliminated the need for africalogical researchers to use the classical writers to prove the African origin of Egypt (Diop, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988). This finding by Diop has led africalogical researchers to seek a better understanding of African philosophy through an interpretation of Egyptian philosophy.
Moreover, africalogical researchers like Dr.Winters, have also began the reconstruction of the Paleo-African language used by Blacks in prehistoric times (Anselin, 1982, 1982b, 1989; Winters, 1994) so that we will know more about the culture and civilization of the Proto-Africans. Dr. Winters in Before Egypt: The Maa Confederation, Africa's First Civilization, is about the Maa civilization. The Maa civilization existed in the Saharan highlands. The people of Maa founded many civilizations including Egypt, and Sumer.
Dr, Winters in Egyptian Language, Niger-Congo Speakers and the Mountains of the Moon , provides the linguistic evidence that confirms the hypothesis of Cheikh Anta Diop, L. Homburger, M. Delafosse that the Niger-Congo speakers and Egyptians had a common origin. In this book we argue that many Egytians living in the 22 sepats of Upper Egypt spoke Niger-Congo languages including the Bantu Fulani and Mande languages.
Egyptian Languages , provides the genetic, linguistic and archaeological evidence relating to the diverse Niger-Congo speakers who made up segments of the Egyptian nation. Readers of this book will learn that the Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Highland regions of Middle Africa: the Mountains of the Moon ; and that this population which later settled Upper Egypt, formerly belonged to the Ounanian culture.
Clyde Winters
The last major confirmation of the ASAH paradigms was made by Clyde Ahmad Winters (1977, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1983d, 1984, 1985) when he expanded our understanding of the role of Blacks\Africans in Indo-China, India and China; and the ancient literacy of Blacks (1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). Dr. Winters has an extensive background in teaching Social Studies. In the 1990’s Dr. Winters help write the Social Science standards for the Chicago Public Schools. In recent years he has been developing lesson plans for Common Core State Standards in Social Science.
Using linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence, Dr. Winters proved that the earliest cultures of China and Indo-China were founded by Blacks from West Africa and modern Ethiopia (Winters, 1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). In support of this history Dr. Winters has posted over 70 videos on YouTube.
Winters also made it clear that the earliest Japanese were Blacks and that Japanese is related to African languages (Winters, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1984). In addition he was able to prove that the founders of Xia and Shang were of African and Dravidian origin (1983c,1985c).
Using the findings of Wiener in regards to the writing of the Olmecs Winters discovered that the Blacks from West Africa left numerous inscriptions written in the Manding language (Winters, 1977, 1979, 1983a, 1985b) . Winters later discovered that due to the cognition between the Mande writing and ancient scripts used by the Minoans and Indus Valley he could read the Indus Valley Writing and the Linear A inscriptions (1985b).
• The study of Africans in ancient America has been fruitful. Dr. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America was the first to recognize that the ancient civilizations of Mexico had been incluenced by Africans. He was especially sure that the Mande speaking people influenced the religion and civilization of the Aztec and Maya people; and that the writing on the Tuxtla statuette was written in the Mande writing system.
Later Ivan van Sertima wrote an important book which highlighted the influence of Africans in Mexico. In They Came before Columbus, van Sertima discussed the African influence on the Olmec civilization, and the discovery of America by Abubakari, a ruler of the Mali empire in the 1300's A.D. Dr. Winters expands the discussion of Abubakari's voyage to America by discusing the colonies they left in North America and Brazil in his book African Empires in Ancient America.
Dr. Clyde Winters has written extensively on the African origins of the Olmec. He deciphered the Olmec language and since then he has published numerous websites where he discussed the Olmec Kings and their civilization. The most important work of Dr. Winters is Atlantis in Mexico, in this book Dr. Winters provides a detailed account of the migration of the Mande speaking people from Africa to the Americas. He explains that they called themselves Xi (Shi) or Si people and provides an informative discussion of the Mexican traditions regarding the expansion of the Olmec from the Gulf Coast, to the Pacific coast of Mexico.
Atlantis in Mexico will provide any researchers with a wealth of knowledge to understand the African origin of the Olmec. And the contributions of the Xi to the civilizations of Mexico.
Dr. Winters has expanded knowledge about the other Blacks who established colonies in the Americas before Europeans. In African Empires Ancient America,Dr. Winters discussed the Axumite, Mound Builders and other ancient Black Americans.
Proficiency in a language other than English, helped africalogical researchers conduct the normal africalogical social science. It was DuBois' (1965, 1970) and Hansberry's knowledge of German that allowed these afrocentrists to conduct research into the role of Blacks in Egypt and Ethiopia. J.A. Rogers mastered many languages including French and German to prove that Blacks inhabited almost every continent on the globe. Dr. C. A. Winters (1977,1981\1982, 1985, 1991, 1994) had to learn Arabic, Chinese, Malinke, Portuguese, Otomi, Mayan, Swahili, Tamil and Tokharian (Kushana) to conduct his africalogical studies of Blacks in Asia and the Americas. Dr. Wintes used his linguistic knowled to decipher the Olmec, Meroitic and Minoan writing systems. Dr, Winters gives a detailed explanation of his decipherment of Meroitic writing numerous Meroitic inscriptions deciphered and in his book: Meroitic Writing and Literature.
In the 1960's due to the rise of independence in the east African country of Tanzania, Swahili became a language used by africalogical scientists. Swahili terms were used to explain and define the phenomena associated with africalogy. This is one of the reasons that the terms used in the Kwanza ceremonies practiced by blacks are Swahili lexical items (Coleman, 1971). Swahili is still among africalogical researchers but today Egyptian is recognized as the classical language for africalogical research (Wimby, 1980). Diop (1974,1991) popularized the idea that Egyptian should be used as the classical language for the study of ancient africalogical language and historical studies. As a result, most of the africalogical researchers today concentrate on Egypt and use Egyptian terms to explain the culture and Proto-African language of Africa people (Carruthers, 1977,1980).
Dr. Winters in Afrocentrism: Myth or Science , Has been able to update the literature regarding African civilizations in Asia, Europe and the Americas. This text provides the blueprint necessary for students to understand why the Afrocentric model of history continues to find support from the archaeological, linguistic and anthropological fields of study
This africalogical research by Winters (1981/1982, 1983b, 1983d, 1989a, 1991, 1994) made it clear that the first civilizations in Indo-China and China were founded by Blacks. He has also proved the lie to Hume's (1875) claim that Blacks have "No literacy" and "No letters". . In A Short History of Black People in Ancient Times (Createspace, 2013) and Ancient African History Primer ( Createspace,2014) Dr. Winters provides a comprehensive discussion of the role of African and Black people in the origin and rise of worldwide civilization.
These scholars recognized that the people of ancient Greece, Southeast Asia and Indo-China were African people. When giants in study of Afrocentrism discussed Blacks in Asia they were talking about people of African descent. So when you claim that these civilizations should be outside the study area of Afrocentric scholars you don't know what you're talking about.
These researchers used anthropological, archaeological historical and linguistic evidence to support their conclusions. It is only natural that these well founded hypotheses developed by these scholars can be supported by population genetics.
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Winters, C.A. (1979). Manding Scripts in the New World", Journal of African Civilizations, l(1), 80-97.
Winters,C.A. (December 1981/ January 1982). Mexico's Black Heritage. The Black Collegian, 76-84.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks
in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8.
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of Xia and Shang", Journal of Black Studies 1 (2), 8-13.
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Winters, C.A. (1984b). Blacks in Ancient America, Colorlines, 3(2), 27-28.
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__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127.
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___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l.
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Woodson, C.G. & Wesley, C.H. (1972). The Negro in Our History. Washington, D.C. Associated Publisher.
Get up off your knees and learn from the Afro-American scholars who began the study of Blacks in ancient history.
In conclusion, Afrocentrism is a mature social science. A social science firmly rooted in the scholarship of Afro-American researchers lasting almost 200 years. As you can see when I talk about Blacks around the world I am continuing a tradition of scholarship began 20 decades ago. All I am doing is confirming research by DuBois and others, that has not been disconfirmed over the past 200 years.
Aluta continua.....The struggle continues... This video explains why some Blacks choose to support Eurocentrist theories and researchers, while they attack Afrocentric researchers who study Egypt and Black Civilization..
Most of the Afrocentric scholars of the 1990s have died (except Asante) and interest in Afrocentrism has gradually diminished year to year.
You must be joking. There are more Afrocentric scholars now than ever. Universities like Temple in Philly keep churning them out.
I've Started a couple threads about the academic discipline Afrocentrism to no avail because everyone loves to lie about what Afrocentricity really is and what degree holding Afrocentrics are interested in and actually write about.
Can any you name me one Afrocentric periodical? What's the name the encyclopedia Afrocentrics published What are the topics, issues and interests covered in either?
ES is explicit in spreading the false image, yte mainstream media corrupted, know-nothing deliberate misconception of Afrocentrism.
The themes attributed to Afrocentric scholarship here are hardly what's regularly published by Afrocentric scholars.
Clyde what do you think of this?
My comment was more related to the public sphere not the fact that people are getting degrees in Africology or African studies.
My point is that the black community is not being influenced much by these scholars today and don't know who they are. But in the 90s some lay people in the black community (mainly in New York) knew who Dr. Ben, John Henrik Clarke, Leonard Jeffries, Van Sertima and Chancellor Williams were. I'm not sure about lay people in Chicago
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
Most of the Afrocentric scholars of the 1990s have died (except Asante) and interest in Afrocentrism has gradually diminished year to year.
You must be joking. There are more Afrocentric scholars now than ever. Universities like Temple in Philly keep churning them out.
I've Started a couple threads about the academic discipline Afrocentrism to no avail because everyone loves to lie about what Afrocentricity really is and what degree holding Afrocentrics are interested in and actually write about.
Can any you name me one Afrocentric periodical? What's the name the encyclopedia Afrocentrics published What are the topics, issues and interests covered in either?
ES is explicit in spreading the false image, yte mainstream media corrupted, know-nothing deliberate misconception of Afrocentrism.
The themes attributed to Afrocentric scholarship here are hardly what's regularly published by Afrocentric scholars.
Clyde what do you think of this?
My comment was more related to the public sphere not the fact that people are getting degrees in Africology or African studies.
My point is that the black community is not being influenced much by these scholars today and don't know who they are. But in the 90s some lay people in the black community (mainly in New York) knew who Dr. Ben, John Henrik Clarke, Leonard Jeffries, Van Sertima and Chancellor Williams were. I'm not sure about lay people in Chicago
I disagree with this assertion. There are many examples online of old presentations and lectures of these great men that get hundred thousands of views, even millions. Their ideas and principles are still very revelant today, as it thirty plus years ago.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde what do you think of this?
My comment was more related to the public sphere not the fact that people are getting degrees in Africology or African studies.
My point is that the black community is not being influenced much by these scholars today and don't know who they are. But in the 90s some lay people in the black community (mainly in New York) knew who Dr. Ben, John Henrik Clarke, Leonard Jeffries, Van Sertima and Chancellor Williams were. I'm not sure about lay people in Chicago
I disagree with this assertion.There are many examples online of old presentations and lectures of these great men that get hundred thousands of views, even millions. Their ideas and principles are still very revelant today, as it thirty plus years ago. [/QB]
My point was that all those men are dead now and there are not scholars currently that have books or make public appearances any significant number of lay black people outside of particular universities know about.
Tell me any African studies or Afrocentric books you own that were published in the last decade.
I just looked at the view counts on Dr. Ben videos some are good
the top 3 are
346K
292K
149K
and three more that are over 100K
It's all lectures from the 90s or late 80s.
John Henrik Clarke has similar figures.
I don't know to what degree it shows they are still influential but they are not forgotten
Anyway I remember Clyde saying no one but he was publishing Afrocentric books anymore. Not exactly true because these graduates of the Africology dept at Temple are
But like I said the public is not aware of them
and that is my point. There aren't equivalent living Afrocentric scholars that have become known to the public in the past decade although there are some in the Universities Also in the early 90s Black nationalism was more prominent in New York and it tied in with some of these scholars also mainly based in New York
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
posted
This depends on which group of people you are talking about. Many people, especially those in the mainstream aren’t going to generally promote Afrocentric scholarship, hell even back then there were some Media that were reluctant to publish some of the works of Afrocentric legends. By the way, I currently own books “When We Ruled” and Blacks and Science volume 1-3 by Robin Walker, along with “African Star Over Asia: The Black Presence in the East“ by Runoko Rashidi. All of these books were published in the last decade or so. Both of these scholars had made some public appearances, Runoko Rashidi more so still do this.
[ 24. August 2019, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
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posted
^ I took out the quote that was same as above trying to keep the repetition down.
O.k. you have an example there Runoko Rashidi and that Robin Walker book.
I think it would be fair to call Runoko Rashidi and afrocentric and I had a post on him earlier However I'm noticing on his website he doesn't use the word afrocentricity or any variation of it
There's also Anthony Browder and a guy named Clyde Winters
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
"Afrocentric" books no longer published, eh?
Only means you don't know the "Afrocentric" publishers.
Anyway your avg 2019 Black American is even less interested in "Afrocentric" matters than your 1990's avg Blx were.
Never more than say 3% of the Blk population ever gave a care about "Afrocentric" anything anyway.
So what?
So last millennium.
This is the time of Blx have $$$ so fuhget about it. Blx are people like everybody else and are concerned about day2day stuff and enjoying the good things life has to offer.
Blk members be honest. Outside your cadre how often you run into old 70's liberation struggle types, 90's "Afrocentric" types, or 21st century "Hotep" types?
Woke is the game to play now. Everybody so woke now. Yet look at the state of The Blk.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: "Afrocentric" books no longer published, eh?
Only means you don't know the "Afrocentric" publishers.
Anyway your avg 2019 Black American is even less interested in "Afrocentric" matters than your 1990's avg Blx were.
Never more than say 3% of the Blk population ever gave a care about "Afrocentric" anything anyway.
So what?
So last millennium.
This is the time of Blx have $$$ so fuhget about it. Blx are people like everybody else and are concerned about day2day stuff and enjoying the good things life has to offer.
Blk members be honest. Outside your cadre how often you run into old 70's liberation struggle types, 90's "Afrocentric" types, or 21st century "Hotep" types?
Woke is the game to play now. Everybody so woke now. Yet look at the state of The Blk.
Most people of any ethnic group probably don't have all the time in the world to invest themselves in history, even the history of "their" people, anyway.
Sometimes I do wonder how high a proportion of Afro-Diasporans would recognize the ancient Egyptians as native Africans with dark skin (relative to Europeans and most Arabs anyway). Anecdotally speaking, the majority of the ones I've seen voice an opinion on the matter do seem to see the AE as part of the "black" club. That doesn't mean they're thinking about the topic 24/7 like a stereotypical hotep would, and I wouldn't consider characterizing AE as African (or even "black") an inherently Afrocentric opinion anyway. But just because most Afro-Diasporans aren't vocal hoteps doesn't mean they don't grow up seeing AE as part of ancient Africa (as they should).
. Calling people "Hotep" and "woke" however are new terms going back several years but not that long at least at the level they had been used recently (although "woke" technically goes back to 1962 but didn't catch on)
"Even though you go through struggle and strife To keep a healthy life, I stay woke, I stay woke" - Master Teacher, Erykah Badu Motown 2007
left: Shaaka Ahmose ("Hotep") , Professor James Small, Zion Lexx (O.T. Hebrew Israelite)
(wasn't there something about revolution not being televised?)
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Baalberith, is there a black Satanic movement going on? I noticed there are some black people in the Temple of Satan which has headquarters in Salem Massachusetts but started in Detroit but it's mainly a white organization.
^^ Here's the poster of 'Hail Satan' the new feature film documentary about the group.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde what do you think of this?
My comment was more related to the public sphere not the fact that people are getting degrees in Africology or African studies.
My point is that the black community is not being influenced much by these scholars today and don't know who they are. But in the 90s some lay people in the black community (mainly in New York) knew who Dr. Ben, John Henrik Clarke, Leonard Jeffries, Van Sertima and Chancellor Williams were. I'm not sure about lay people in Chicago
I disagree with this assertion.There are many examples online of old presentations and lectures of these great men that get hundred thousands of views, even millions. Their ideas and principles are still very revelant today, as it thirty plus years ago.
My point was that all those men are dead now and there are not scholars currently that have books or make public appearances any significant number of lay black people outside of particular universities know about.
Tell me any African studies or Afrocentric books you own that were published in the last decade.
I just looked at the view counts on Dr. Ben videos some are good
the top 3 are
346K
292K
149K
and three more that are over 100K
It's all lectures from the 90s or late 80s.
John Henrik Clarke has similar figures.
I don't know to what degree it shows they are still influential but they are not forgotten
Anyway I remember Clyde saying no one but he was publishing Afrocentric books anymore. Not exactly true because these graduates of the Africology dept at Temple are
But like I said the public is not aware of them
and that is my point. There aren't equivalent living Afrocentric scholars that have become known to the public in the past decade although there are some in the Universities Also in the early 90s Black nationalism was more prominent in New York and it tied in with some of these scholars also mainly based in New York [/QB]
I am the only one writing Afrocentric ancient history today.The Temple graduates conduct research that is based on Afrocentricity--not Afrocentrism the research tradition of J.A. Rogers, Anta Diop and W.E.B.DuBois. Asante’s 5 Characteristics of Afrocentricity are:
(1) an intense interest in psychological location as determined by symbols, motifs, rituals, and signs;
(2) a commitment to finding the subject-place of Africans in any social, political, economic, architectural, literary, or religious phenomenon with implications for questions of sex, gender, and class; 3) a defense of African cultural elements as historically valid in the context of art, music, education, science and literature;
(4) a celebration of centeredness and agency and a commitment to lexical refinement that eliminates pejoratives about Africans or other people;
(5) a powerful imperative from historical sources to revise the collective text of African people.
This means that in Afrocentricity researchers do not use the methods of academic disciplines that originated in Europe to interpret Africalogical events.
This is not the mission of Afrocentrism. Afrocentrism-is adherence to principles and theories related to the idea that African and World history originated on the African continent and moved outward from Africa through the human agency of Africans speaking related languages and practicing a shared culture, who founded the first civilizations of Africa, the Americas, Europe and Asia.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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