quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: any genes that predispose people to homosexuality would rarely be passed on to future generations. Yet same-sex attraction is widespread in humans, array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce.
the array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce..
The genes that have a correlation are linked to other traits that might be random or key to survival. however on an individual level there hasn't been much evidence of a determining set of genes resulting in samesex preference. In the study I've linked the main genes discovered combined can account for upto 25% variation. yet less than 1% percent of samples have all of them.
Nonetheless the issue is far from heritability of homosexuality. It's whether Africans were pansexual before European Christian colonization and settlement. To where we're talking about sociology and cultural practices. IDK, I thought that the presence of derogatory terms referring to homosexuals in Africa which predated pilgrimage would have sufficed in putting that notion to bed, but here we are lol.
I'm learning here.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Nonetheless the issue is far from heritability of homosexuality. It's whether Africans were pansexual before European Christian colonization and settlement. To where we're talking about sociology and cultural practices. IDK, I thought that the presence of derogatory terms referring to homosexuals in Africa which predated pilgrimage would have sufficed in putting that notion to bed, but here we are lol.
I'm learning here.
.
Well, early-mid Holocene art proves pan-sexuality up in the far far north of the continent
Shifted to objective information cos all this personalities subjective polemics stuff, well, it bites.
Outside of propaganda, it's sure in general, male-male sex though practiced sporadically throughout time and space was not the norm and the oldest African documents view it with ridicule (Hor/Set) or as spiritual negligence (certain so-called Negative Confessions from AE afterdeath liturgy).
--NOTE: Nonetheless Americas diasporic Africa based spiritualities approve of gay 'officiants', maybe an Ngolan 'priestly' transplant. None of the invoked deities/spirits are conceived of as homosexual.--
When free of abuses the practice was publicly tolerated, being of low frequency. There weren't many murders due to Queer Eyes persistently hitting on Str8 Guys. Few, if any, African titillating sex lore tales featured homo or trans sexuality.
Even tho this is the Deshret (meaning chaos in AELs) forum I still think this thread needs added neutral content examining what msle homosexuality is about right now in free 2021 societies where OutTheCloset reps 50% or more of the gay and lesbian population.
Gay is a thing of its own, separate from other sex/gender minorities.
Is a born male with a lifelong female mentality ("sissy"), ♪♫https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbD3pDX_6E who removes his birth organs and has a doctor sculpt him a vagina, a male gay homosexual pre-ops? That includes the whole cline down to those who only think and act feminine right on up to the post-ops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCpGh6-cPR4
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: any genes that predispose people to homosexuality would rarely be passed on to future generations. Yet same-sex attraction is widespread in humans, array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce.
the array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce..
The genes that have a correlation are linked to other traits that might be random or key to survival. however on an individual level there hasn't been much evidence of a determining set of genes resulting in samesex preference. In the study I've linked the main genes discovered combined can account for upto 25% variation. yet less than 1% percent of samples have all of them.
Nonetheless the issue is far from heritability of homosexuality. It's whether Africans were pansexual before European Christian colonization and settlement. To where we're talking about sociology and cultural practices. IDK, I thought that the presence of derogatory terms referring to homosexuals in Africa which predated pilgrimage would have sufficed in putting that notion to bed, but here we are lol.
I'm learning here.
What about Bisexual people? Wouldn't 100% of the Cameroonian Biafra tribal men have this gene since their customs dictate that they practice homosexuality until they were mature enough to court a young woman?
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Elmaestro: [qb]Nonetheless the issue is far from heritability of homosexuality. It's whether Africans were pansexual before European Christian colonization and settlement. To where we're talking about sociology and cultural practices. IDK, I thought that the presence of derogatory terms referring to homosexuals in Africa which predated pilgrimage would have sufficed in putting that notion to bed, but here we are lol.
Jokes or hatred? African culture is full of joking and kidding, but again the proclivity of homosexuals to be priest and tribal leaders negates any notion of them being outliners of any sort, but rather essential to the well being of the tribe.
quote: Outside of propaganda, it's sure in general, male-male sex though practiced sporadically throughout time and space was not the norm and the oldest African documents view it with ridicule (Hor/Set) or as spiritual negligence (certain so-called Negative Confessions from AE afterdeath liturgy).
You're making a few unfounded claims. Given the presence of homosexuals in every society on Earth today, it wouldn't be far fetched to assume that they existed in every society in antiquity as well. When you say "sporadic" like today we (truly gay people) are on average only around 5% of any given group of people. Would this frequency also fit into your usage of the term "sporadic"? Do you also take into account BI-SEXUAL people who engage in homosexuality, but also procreate? Or do they simply not exist to you lol. If you do acknowledge that they exist what percentage of people in any random society do you think have this bisexual orientation?
As far as ridicule of homosexuality is concerned in the oldest story on Earth what are you talking about?? There is no "ridicule" there is simply graphic details of homosexuality being practiced among Africa's most supreme male beings. Complimenting a man on the shape of his ass before laying in bed with him, and getting cream pied that night is like a gay porno set up. Where is the ridicule? One is attempting to domineer the other as the TOP, while the other is essentially trying to get his flipflop on.
Posts: 29 | From: Haberdashery, MS | Registered: Jul 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: any genes that predispose people to homosexuality would rarely be passed on to future generations. Yet same-sex attraction is widespread in humans, array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce.
the array of genetic variations associated with same-sex behaviour would have eventually disappeared, unless it somehow helped people to survive or reproduce..
The genes that have a correlation are linked to other traits that might be random or key to survival. however on an individual level there hasn't been much evidence of a determining set of genes resulting in samesex preference. In the study I've linked the main genes discovered combined can account for upto 25% variation. yet less than 1% percent of samples have all of them.
Nonetheless the issue is far from heritability of homosexuality. It's whether Africans were pansexual before European Christian colonization and settlement. To where we're talking about sociology and cultural practices. IDK, I thought that the presence of derogatory terms referring to homosexuals in Africa which predated pilgrimage would have sufficed in putting that notion to bed, but here we are lol.
I'm learning here.
What about Bisexual people? Wouldn't 100% of the Cameroonian Biafra tribal men have this gene since their customs dictate that they practice homosexuality until they were mature enough to court a young woman?
I doubt it. The biggest reason why is because it's a custom. or a cultural norm. IF it was that real, mating ceremonies would likely be the custom solely for procreation. And I personally don't have the evidence of hateful aggression targeted towards homosexuals precolonialism. So I can't say. (Jokes vs hatespeech)
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by TheTruth01: What about Bisexual people? Wouldn't 100% of the Cameroonian Biafra tribal men have this gene since their customs dictate that they practice homosexuality until they were mature enough to court a young woman?
Like I said, there's probably a difference between the ritualized same-sex intercourse you see in some cultures around the world and individuals' innate sexual orientation. Anyone could have same-sex intercourse if they had the right motivation, but that doesn't mean their natural sexual orientation is what we would call gay or bisexual.
That said, genetic factors might not be the only ones explaining homosexual and bisexual orientations in humans and other animals. Embryonic factors that come into play during fetal development may play a role as well.
quote:This book presents a simple description of the biological mechanisms that are involved in the determination of sexual orientation in animals and also presumably in humans. Using scientific studies published over the last few decades, it argues that sexual orientation, both homosexual and heterosexual, is under the control of embryonic endocrine and genetic phenomena in which there is little room for individual choice. The book begins with animal studies of the hormonal and neural mechanisms that control the so-called instinctive behaviors and analyzes how this animal work may potentially apply to humans. The book does not focus exclusively on homosexuality, however. Instead, the book acts as a broader guide to the biological basis of sexual orientation, and also discusses important gender differences that may influence sexual orientation.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
C'mon son. U twisting again. AlrightI challenge you to post the Hor Set homosexual pedophile incest story verbatim and demonstrate how Set was not the butt of ridicule of all the dinner guests when sperm dripped out his mouth and that Set all the while intended Hor's humiliation in front of family and dinner guests.
Your propaganda is an outright lie and you know it.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Eurocentrics love misrepresenting African sociology. Euros have no seperate sex age-grade system all must pass through. Euros have no genderless conceptualization for children.
Many African societies did not associate sex with gender until after initiation.
Gay propagandist judge and draw baseless analogies to create a rife and rampant gay Africa but don't consider boarding schools society condoned hotbeds of adult predatory sexual activity.
Facts have no effect on propaganda pushers. Their concern is not with overall fact but swaying others toward their selfserving agenda.
This thread proves it. All posters accept the fact of same sex relations in Inner Africa and homosexual spiritualists in Ngola/Congo.
This stymies a gay agenda objective to turn Inner Africa into the Queen Continent of Queers. Note only one person of a divers membership forum that includes gays and Euro descent people posts rubbish like * AE thought nothing odd about male-male sex * all the 'priesthood' continent wide was gay * age-grade system was designed to gratify boy-boy & man-boy lust
posted
"In Ethiopia Bieber (1909) “encountered Uranism” among the Semitic Harari people and noted that “sodomy is not foreign to the Harari. Albeit not as commonly, it also occurs among the Galla [Oromo] and Somal[i].” He also noted mutual masturbation by both sexes and all ages for all three peoples, and specified that among the Harari, Uranism was practiced as often between men as between men and boys. More recently, Gamst (1969) reported homosexual relations among shepherd boys of the Cushitic-speaking Qemant (Kemant) of central Ethiopia. Among Amhara peasants, Messing (1957) found (better-accepted) male transvestites, who they view as “god’s mistakes.” Wändarwäräd (“literally male-female”) with visible male sexual characteristics, but whose structure is popularly believed to be defective. Among the Maale of southern Ethiopia, “a small minority [of men] crossed over to feminine roles. Called ashtime, these (biological) males dressed like women, performed female tasks, cared for their own houses, and apparently had sexual relations with men,” according to Donald Donham (1990)."
This is from wikipedia but apparently hararis were openly gay, very suprising for a muslim people
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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^ Arabs and their Islamic settler colonies effected traditional African mores. Islamic literature includes pederast poets like Abu Nuwas el-Hasan bin Hani.
For later poets Khaled El-Rouayheb (2005) The Love of Boys in Arabic Poetry of the Early Ottoman Period, 1500 – 1800 Middle Eastern Literatures: incorporating Edebiyat, 8:1, 3-22
Abstract The Arabic poetry of the early Ottoman period (1500 – 1800) is still, to a large extent, unexplored territory. The few secondary monographs on the poetry of the period suggest that love-poetry as a rule portrayed a female beloved. In the first part of the article I argue that this is misleading. The portrayed beloved seems often, and perhaps most often, to have been a beardless or downy-cheeked male youth. In the second part of the article, I address the issue of how such poetry should be understood. According to some modern scholars, such pederastic poetry indicates a widespread tolerance of ‘homosexuality’ in the pre-19th century Arabic – Islamic world, despite Islamic legal prohibitions. Other scholars argue that such poetry was cultivated openly because they were conceived to be nothing more than time-honoured literary exercises. I argue that both positions overlook the fact that much of this poetry celebrated a passionate but chaste love in the ‘udhrı ̄ tradition, and that Islamic jurists did not consider such love to be prohibited, even if directed at a beardless youth.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ^ Arabs and their Islamic settler colonies effected traditional African mores. Islamic literature includes pederast poets like Abu Nuwas el-Hasan bin Hani.
For later poets Khaled El-Rouayheb (2005) The Love of Boys in Arabic Poetry of the Early Ottoman Period, 1500 – 1800 Middle Eastern Literatures: incorporating Edebiyat, 8:1, 3-22
Abstract The Arabic poetry of the early Ottoman period (1500 – 1800) is still, to a large extent, unexplored territory. The few secondary monographs on the poetry of the period suggest that love-poetry as a rule portrayed a female beloved. In the first part of the article I argue that this is misleading. The portrayed beloved seems often, and perhaps most often, to have been a beardless or downy-cheeked male youth. In the second part of the article, I address the issue of how such poetry should be understood. According to some modern scholars, such pederastic poetry indicates a widespread tolerance of ‘homosexuality’ in the pre-19th century Arabic – Islamic world, despite Islamic legal prohibitions. Other scholars argue that such poetry was cultivated openly because they were conceived to be nothing more than time-honoured literary exercises. I argue that both positions overlook the fact that much of this poetry celebrated a passionate but chaste love in the ‘udhrı ̄ tradition, and that Islamic jurists did not consider such love to be prohibited, even if directed at a beardless youth.
Damn i never would have expected pederasty to be explored like that by islamic writers, i could see that being introduced by muslim settlers into Somalia, Harar and other parts of muslim Ethiopia, but how do you explain this presence amongst Amharas and Qemants who are overwhelmingly non-muslim? Pre islamic yemeni settlers or simply contact with islamic groups etc...?
Tbh, i have a hard time seeing how some anthropolgists strolled into these strict muslim communities and saw homosexual acts so openly, if it occured I definitely think it would be behind closed doors, im reading claims of travellers seeing this in Eritrea aswell, im Tigrinya and i can't imagine anyone in Eritrea being open about being gay, yet somehow these guys just stumbled upon openly gay relationships, these accounts need to be taken with a pinch of salt imo.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: Damn i never would have expected pederasty to be explored like that by islamic writers,
Yes, that's the good thing about non a priori research. It will broaden one's scope with all kinds of "i never woulda suspected much less expected" personal musings.
Objective, non-propagandist non-ethnocentric, reading and analysis is vital when researching unless one just wants to "find" what they already hold dear and can't be bothered with anything that challenges or even broadens self-serving and non-educated worldviews.
quote:i could see that being introduced by muslim settlers into Somalia, Harar and other parts of muslim Ethiopia, but how do you explain this presence amongst Amharas and Qemants who are overwhelmingly non-muslim? Pre islamic yemeni settlers or simply contact with islamic groups etc...?
I don't understand. All homo sapiens, and at least a good % of mammals, are susceptible to same sex interactions. The actual actions are a part of nature. The mentality accompanying those actions? Well, that'll vary from person to person as well as population to population. In the words (paraphrased) of the greatest African writer who was a Roman citizen "I'm human, nothing human is alien to me." Qemant are human so at whatever level homosexuality must be among them too.
--NOTE: Historically speaking, our Eritrea northeast Ethiopia Djibouti Somalia Yemen and southwest Saudi Arabia are a coterminous region interacting since before the Holocene as proved by the Pleistocene Nubian cultural complex on either side of the Bab al-Mandab.--
quote:Tbh, i have a hard time seeing how some anthropolgists strolled into these strict muslim communities and saw homosexual acts so openly, if it occured I definitely think it would be behind closed doors, im reading claims of travellers seeing this in Eritrea aswell, im Tigrinya and i can't imagine anyone in Eritrea being open about being gay, yet somehow these guys just stumbled upon openly gay relationships, ...
You may surprised how much sex happens out of doors, esp. in 'Western' parks. The reports you posted. Are they from your days or earlier times? Childs play is just that and easily stumbled upon by accident. How much so by a snoop intent on catching them? Is it known how much time spent or to whom a given anthropologist is ingratiated? Also, folks might not have known the mores of an anthropologist among them and thus not know what to keep hush-hush. An intimate Kikuyu friend stopped talking about it when my facial expressions evinced 'negativity' after she told me about male-male sex by warriors during war in enemy territory. She said it was to keep them off the enemy women. No telling how sex with or raping them might end up? Rock crushed skull? Lacerated glans from a device inserted in a vagina? Balls busted? Completely worn out and captured by a sexual athlete? ??? This is besides the fact that southern aGikuyu youth had to gang rape a grown enemy woman to pass age-grade.
quote:..., these accounts need to be taken with a pinch of salt imo.
Sure, all travelogues and even 'scientific' reports need the Morton Co. treatment. Things is to compile the 'observations', eliminate what the observer has gathered from other sources and focus on writer's own experience(s).
Burton wasn't an anthropologist but he's well traveled and somewhat admired Arabs, while despising Africans, and was a sexual experimenter himself. His first hand accounts are likely factual most of the time.
The pseudonymous Dr Jacobus, writer of Untrodden Fields of Anthropology. had the full power of Euro colonial government behind him. But how much he reports on is either understated or exaggerated?
R.E.L Masters (of later Masters and Johnson fame) has some works that include info on behaviors in Africa and Asia.
Allen Edwardes also tried detailing courting and sex in Islamic societies.
Now those authors and works are moldy oldies acquired in my youth some 40 years ago and they weren't new then. However I haven't found a solo current millennium book the stature of Edwardes and Masters. That is why I wanna thank you for hipping me to your post-1950s(?) sources, even if from the Wiki.
Different century. Different millennium. Different zodiacal age. Plus a new global culture never seen before near the end of the last decade. Attitudes and preconceptions are shifting with the increase of mishmosh demographics especially in the 1st and 2nd world economies, hell, anywhere there's the INTERNET. Believe me, it's a different world, and now sociopolitical repressive controls excused by CoVid (as if humanity will go extinct w/o Pfizer etc., RNA manipulation --misnomered vaccine-- intervention).
quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: Damn i never would have expected pederasty to be explored like that by islamic writers,
Yes, that's the good thing about non a priori research. It will broaden one's scope with all kinds of "i never woulda suspected much less expected" personal musings.
Objective, non-propagandist non-ethnocentric, reading and analysis is vital when researching unless one just wants to "find" what they already hold dear and can't be bothered with anything that challenges or even broadens self-serving and non-educated worldviews.
quote:i could see that being introduced by muslim settlers into Somalia, Harar and other parts of muslim Ethiopia, but how do you explain this presence amongst Amharas and Qemants who are overwhelmingly non-muslim? Pre islamic yemeni settlers or simply contact with islamic groups etc...?
I don't understand. All homo sapiens, and at least a good % of mammals, are susceptible to same sex interactions. The actual actions are a part of nature. The mentality accompanying those actions? Well, that'll vary from person to person as well as population to population. In the words (paraphrased) of the greatest African writer who was a Roman citizen "I'm human, nothing human is alien to me." Qemant are human so at whatever level homosexuality must be among them too.
--NOTE: Historically speaking, our Eritrea northeast Ethiopia Djibouti Somalia Yemen and southwest Saudi Arabia are a coterminous region interacting since before the Holocene as proved by the Pleistocene Nubian cultural complex on either side of the Bab al-Mandab.--
quote:Tbh, i have a hard time seeing how some anthropolgists strolled into these strict muslim communities and saw homosexual acts so openly, if it occured I definitely think it would be behind closed doors, im reading claims of travellers seeing this in Eritrea aswell, im Tigrinya and i can't imagine anyone in Eritrea being open about being gay, yet somehow these guys just stumbled upon openly gay relationships, ...
You may surprised how much sex happens out of doors, esp. in 'Western' parks. The reports you posted. Are they from your days or earlier times? Childs play is just that and easily stumbled upon by accident. How much so by a snoop intent on catching them? Is it known how much time spent or to whom a given anthropologist is ingratiated? Also, folks might not have known the mores of an anthropologist among them and thus not know what to keep hush-hush. An intimate Kikuyu friend stopped talking about it when my facial expressions evinced 'negativity' after she told me about male-male sex by warriors during war in enemy territory. She said it was to keep them off the enemy women. No telling how sex with or raping them might end up? Rock crushed skull? Lacerated glans from a device inserted in a vagina? Balls busted? Completely worn out and captured by a sexual athlete? ??? This is besides the fact that southern aGikuyu youth had to gang rape a grown enemy woman to pass age-grade.
quote:..., these accounts need to be taken with a pinch of salt imo.
Sure, all travelogues and even 'scientific' reports need the Morton Co. treatment. Things is to compile the 'observations', eliminate what the observer has gathered from other sources and focus on writer's own experience(s).
Burton wasn't an anthropologist but he's well traveled and somewhat admired Arabs, while despising Africans, and was a sexual experimenter himself. His first hand accounts are likely factual most of the time.
The pseudonymous Dr Jacobus, writer of Untrodden Fields of Anthropology. had the full power of Euro colonial government behind him. But how much he reports on is either understated or exaggerated?
R.E.L Masters (of later Masters and Johnson fame) has some works that include info on behaviors in Africa and Asia.
Allen Edwardes also tried detailing courting and sex in Islamic societies.
Now those authors and works are moldy oldies acquired in my youth some 40 years ago and they weren't new then. However I haven't found a solo current millennium book the stature of Edwardes and Masters. That is why I wanna thank you for hipping me to your post-1950s(?) sources, even if from the Wiki.
Different century. Different millennium. Different zodiacal age. Plus a new global culture never seen before near the end of the last decade. Attitudes and preconceptions are shifting with the increase of mishmosh demographics especially in the 1st and 2nd world economies, hell, anywhere there's the INTERNET. Believe me, it's a different world, and now sociopolitical repressive controls excused by CoVid (as if humanity will go extinct w/o Pfizer etc., RNA manipulation --misnomered vaccine-- intervention).
Yh i didnt take into account that the kind of people living in the horn of Africa wouldn't be too different than the groups living in Yemen and parts of Saudia Arabia as we see with the pre-historic archeology, there was likely some bidirectional migration, so some of these practises could just be common to both sides of the Red Sea.
I believe one of the reports i posted, at least the one from Eritrea was from 1969, im only 18 so this is way before my time lol, but its clear that my parents generation who would have been born around that time have very strong views about homosexuality, its not rare to find an Eritrean of the generation calling for homosexuals to be killed, but maybe the people around me aren't the best representative for the general populations views.
You raise a good point that the locals may not have known the customs of the visiting anthros so there may not have been a need to hide it, I do recall reading Eritrean youth and older men would have sex and it would involve payment, and their fathers were aware of this... this sounds like any Eritrean fathers worst nightmare tbh, but seeing as it was for payment maybe only really disadvantaged/lower class families engaged in this out of desperation, it seems it may have been situational to an extent. here's the google book if you want:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iZ5RAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=Bieber+(1909)+%E2%80%9Cencountered+Uranism%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=PLFqiQrF9N&sig=ACfU3U2ouLmP656AA_dusYz MgluHKLpqgA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH38imyM_yAhWqOOwKHZ0pD-EQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=Bieber%20(1909)%20%E2%80%9Cencountered%20Uranism%E2%80%9D&f=false
And yeah there will always be a level of homosexuality and other non hetero behaviour in every society, its the way some authors paint this thats so jarring, like it was this widespread thing accepted and embraced by all people all over Africa, and any African culture which is against this, is due to the presence of Abrahamic religion, Arab contact or colonialism
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You know the genetic NE-N Afr genomic connection right?
Some Euro colonial anthros posited a Hamite natural predilection for male-male sex owing nothing to Semite infusion of pansexualities.
You think that was just a smear campaign or ?
As in the Egyptian ancestry found in the horn that makes up cushitic ancestry minus the Dinka related component?
What do they base this on? Ancient Egypt is probably the best source for what a pure "Hamitic" culture is, we have a ton of Egyptian documents, artwork and accounts from Greek travellers, it doesn't seem like they were very fond of homosexuality, nor does it seem like that they disliked it, they were probably indifferent towards it, the next best source for a pure Hamitic culture is probably Oromos than Bejas, these groups aren't particularly partial towards homosexuality either, I can't find anything about Bejas engaging in male-male sex and they had a lot of contact with anthros.
So yes that does appear to be a smear campaign, a predilection implies preference, which I strongly doubt.
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How does that work when the oldest Egyptian story, which is that of Horus and Set literally details how Set the uncle literally seduced his nephew, and said "my, what nice bottox you have" (along those lines), and proceeded to bust a nut in his booty. In the oldest African story, the details of homosexuality are vivid. Yet you are trying to claim that this was action was not known. How could the general population adhering the Ausarian religion possibly relate to such a taboo action for it to be referenced?
I didn’t say homosexual action was unknown. I said that in general, the Egyptians devalued homosexuality. And the Horus and Set story is myth, not real life, meant to explain various hijinks of the multiple gods such as Isis reassembling the penis or body parts. It has little tie in with the core moral precepts that guided the society. If it did then buggery would have been sanctioned and respected. But to the contrary it was disdained.
"Subcultures" like the traditional African priesthoods right? These subculture initiates who are often characterized as homosexuals, play an integral part in the local tribal religions obviously.
Here again you give no credible evidence as to your argument. HOW integral a part? Based on what criteria, in what cultures, and in what prevalence? 10%? 20%? 80%? Remember we both agree that homosexuals and homosexual activity did exist in Africa. Like you, I reject the blind denialism of those who seem to think Africa was “gay free” until “the white man came” and other such fiddle-faddle. But because you have SOME cults or groups whose rituals may have involved homosexuality does not necessarily mean homosexuality was recognized as equally valid with core mainstream values. As shown in the Yoruba example above, that culture’s the mainstream view discounted or marginalized homosexuality. This does not mean homosexual activity and homosexuals did not exist, or were not tolerated or winked at, at some level. But in general, core African cultural values considered homosexuality as a way of life to be something marginal. Let's quote that Yoruba example again:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The ontology of the human spirit’s journey between the otherworld and earth and the value Yoruba place on progeny also explain why homosexuality as a way of life is absent in Yorubaland. Although homosexual relations are known to exist, it would be inconceivable for Yoruba not to perpetuate the spirits of their forebears. Both men's and women’s significance in life is judged by the number of children they bring into the world. To have no children is regarded as a great human tragedy." -- Margaret Thompson Drewal. 1992. Yoruba Ritual: Performers, Play, Agency. p 186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
That being said and proven through sources already presented, what would make a tribe ostracize it's own priest/spiritual gatekeepers? It makes no sense? I notice that you have not really spoken to this fact yet. Please do.
First of all, who says homosexual priests and their homosexual activity was the norm in African cultures? What cultures and what was their prevalence? You still have presented no credible evidence as to how prevalent or integral such might be. That they did exist we both agree but something can exist and be marginal to the society’s mainstream values. Second, even if there were some gay priests sodomizing one another, such activities tended to be kept on the quiet in many places because the values of the mainstream society discounted such practices as marginal. Few African priests were going about advertising their latest bout of buggery.
You're building strawmen to knock over. What is the "Western gay model" firstly?
You just quoted what I said was a Western gay model- quote: ” a western gay model , where homosexuality is something to be celebrated or embraced by the mainstream society..
You then said later:
It is my conjecture that homosexuality in Black people is tabooed or propagated to be, because Black gay homosexuals who were formerly worshipped as the priest of your damn villages will again earn that title. I think that white people put you all up to hating this truth, because they know our power and took advantage of the down period. They also know your egos...So many damn DL dudes spouting homophobic nonsense to deflect from the bussy hankering it's pathetic.
Your conjecture is nonsensical. Where are these “black gay homosexuals” being “worshipped”? Says who? All you proffer is your wild guess. Furthermore you seem to think that if Africans discounted or devalued homosexuality then it is “due to the white man” who taught us negroes to “hate.” This is just as simplistic as those who claim there was no homosexuality in Africa “till da white man came.”
Why would they even be ranked for? They serve two different purposes. One is strictly for pleasure, why the other is meant for that and procreation. How does invoke a competition? That is to assume that the men engaging in homosexuality could not have been bisexual. That is a gay couple, and the girl basically carried their baby. Where is the procreation issue at?
As already shown by the Yoruba, they did rank homosexuality below core values of procreation, male-female marriage, lineage etc. Whether homosexuals were buggering one another in the bush for pleasure doesn’t change that fact. Hence given the centrality of the mainstream values homosexuality’s existence is acknowledged, but is considered to be marginal.
I fail to see where procreation of this once "elite" civilization was an issue. Rome as well. We all know that those southern Euros got down in many ways sexually, but this argument issues in a society as a result of sexual fluidity is an Afrocentric fallacy, and a low IQ cop out for Black men to deny the possibility of their own
As already shown in the referenced scholarship, procreation and its associated relationships and structures, was valued above homosexuality. As for Rome and the rest, sure they indulged. But homosexuality in general was not as respected in Rome compared to the key mainstream values. The Greeks held homosexuality in more esteem, particularly the elites. The longest discourse in Plato’s symposium is on the nature of homosexual love. But in general the society did not rank homosexuality on the same level as other core mainstream values- marriage, procreation, etc.
You ignore the most frequent "child rape" on the continent which is that of little girls being forced into traditional marriages where they are forced to have sex with straight men. But because this sex is considered "natural" in many Afrocentric eyes it's perfectly fine, and violations are noted. You're so worried about backdoor access that you're ignoring that the front door has already been kicked in! smh
Here again what you say is just plain nonsensical. Who says “Afrocentric eyes” consider rape of children to be “perfectly fine.” Name these Afrocentrics” who endorse child rape. Diop? Asante? Van Sertima? Obenga? Or any less prominent.. We’ll wait…
Do you honestly want to sit here and believe that beautiful young women want to be climbed on by an out of shape older man? Let me find the one article that I read a few years back, where the king of one African society bones ALL the girls and they HATE IT. Now there are World women's rights advocates who are calling this out, that you don't seem to find a problem with.
COmpleat BS. No one here has endorsed” any “rape”. In fact it was pointed out that your own touted gay “role model” Mwanga, frequently indulged in rape of young men and boys, and there were very good reasons to objecting to such activity by the victms. Your bogus claim that as to “not finding any problem” with such activity is exposed for the sheer nonsense it is, just like your “worshiped” homosexual priests who the white man “told us to hate.”
you tried to take it there, and make it seem that only the gay king had unwilling paiges to fuck on, when in reality just about all traditional monarchs across the globe have this practice from a hetero standpoint. Do you see how juvenile your anti gay prejudice makes you look in these assessments?
Actually the only juvenile reasoning I see is yours like your simplistic argument as to how “de white man” “told us to hate” assorted “worshipped” “gay” Africans.. And your childish anti-hetero prejudice comes out clearly by your own reasoning.
As though women subjects in traditional African society actually had/have the right to reject the advances of a king without some form of reprisal for breaking tradition. If the Bafia females did not want to be with an older established man, and chose a young boy she would killed or ran out of the village. But you don't have outrage for that?
Strangely, you youself show little “outrage” as your gay ruler Mwanga raping young black boys and men. Nor are you "outraged" at the hundreds of cases of rape of young black boys or men documented in colonial southern Africa. Where’s your “concern” about these black victims?
e with the missionaries (THE SAME GRIPE THAT SHAKA ZULU HAD) with that instance is passive dishonestly. This king saw Europeans as a threat to his kingdom's stability as his forefathers did before his sex issue became a problem, so he became proactive in cleansing the land. In the midst of him cleansing the land he see's his harem basically saying that he isn't the king anymore because the wtye people who he's warring with said so, and or treason.
Holy cow. You seem to be justifying the rape of young black boys and men as a matter of “national security.”
And pray tell what “gripe” did Shaka Zulu have with “the missionaries?” Says who? Do you have any credible evidence or scholarship to put on the table as to this or is this just another of your juvenile “conjectures”? Shaka in fact had little interaction with any missionaries, as many histories show (see Morris 1965 for example- Washing of the Spears) He was more concerned about NON missionaries like white traders and interlopers like the Boers. Quote a credible source where Shaka is “griping” with any “missionaries.”
Fact #1 - consensual sex exist Fact #2 - rape also exist in all societies Your inference - The existence of a rape issue nulls out the possibly of any unrelated consensual sex.
Just absurd smh.
Here again you are just building bogus strawmen. I don’t “infer” at all that rape “rules out” the possibility of consensual sex. Your reading comprehension seems to be limited. Let’s quote what I said:
Sure. Homosexuality and insemination of boys by men did take place, and some of it was apparently consensual. But some of it WASN’T consensual.
Some activity was consensual. Some was not. I don’t know here your are getting the juvenile “inference” that this simple statement of fact ”rules out” the possibility of consensual sex. Must be the same place as the mystical “worshiped” homosexual priests that mystical white ’teachers” taught “us” to “hate.”
Umm did you miss the part of the society where the males who partake in buttsex with the boy prostitutes are the APEX of the community? They are the "whose who" in the society, so what are you talking about them being marginalized? How can you be an APEX and also be marginalized?
I said: - quote:- The marginalization picture is mixed, true, but your own example of the male prostitutes undermine your argument somewhat, for the very same male prostitutes, whatever the “magical” powers they imagine accrue from sodomy, remain a marginal societal element.
How exactly are the black homosexual prostitutes I refer to the “apex” of the society? Give some credible evidence of these male prostitutes at the top of Nigerian or other African society. If they are at the “apex” why would they need to sell their bodies for sodomy? Your logic is rather weak.
Name is his wife. It's that simple. Let's say he was sterile, Ok. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have a life long partner(s) should it? Where is his family/children? He was born out of wedlock himself, so the idea that if he was freakin some thots he would have some bastard children running around the village, but there are no reports. He was gay man, just accept it.
YOU would like Shaka to be “gay” but sorry, that doesn’t work. Very few wives of African monarchs of the region and era are recorded by name. So naming his wives or concubines doesn’t mean much. As the histories note however Shaka had multiple wives and concubines.
This males essentially did what the pharaohs of the Nile did thousands of years prior, and he no one can name his wife. That really defied the rhetoric that behind every great King is a great Queen.
If all the wives of all the pharaohs cannot be named, your logic seems to say that then they must be “gay.”
[b]We have the names of the concubines whom the Ugandan King put down for their refusal to give up the ass, but it is according to you too much to get a documented name or even an oral tradition among the Zulus of this female compassion of Southern Africa's greatest king.
Actually its your argument that ”he must be ‘gay’ since we cant name his wife” that is done, both logically and factually. I have already given sources that Shaka indeed did have wives and concubines., You now insist that if no names are available then “he must be "gay”. What laughable logic. Using this approach then numerous historical figures for which no wive s or concubines can be named must be gay.” That’s weak logic.
Give the names of Nzinga’s “toy boys”. If you can’t then your argument is done.
You ask for oral traditions, histories. I already gave those earlier. But since you insist on being additionally debunked:
As professor Dan Wylie of Rhodes University author of at least 2 biographies on Shaka notes:
"Interestingly, more than one source claims Shaka had a wife or wives among the Mthethwa and at least one son, Zibizendhlea." --Dan Wylie. 2011. Shaka. pg 54
And as another biography on Shaka, Carolyn Hamilton's Terrific Majesty notes:
"Haggard narrates how Baleka, a paramour of Shaka, conceives the king’s child and pleads with his mother, Nandi, to help her save the child from the death that is the fate of all the king’s progeny.204" --Carolyn Hamilton, 1998. Terrific Majesty: The powers of Shaka Zulu and the limits of historical invention pg 118
Read it and weep. You said earlier:
"Shaka Zulu, the greatest Bantu leader of recent times who was never reported with a female.."
As already demonstrated multiple times, this argument is completely debunked.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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