quote:Furthermore, these latter populations are more closely related to QCP than to people from Western Europe and the Caucasus. The admixture analysis confirms the similarity of North African human groups with QCP. Archaeological evidence could be consistent with at least a cultural impact of Northern African people on the individuals buried in QCP. Indeed, several personal goods recovered in the necropolis and funeral architectures seem to wire the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea to QCP.
one outlier among them :
quote:Imperial Rome individuals from QCP suggest a certain degree of similarity with North African and Middle Eastern individuals. Specifically, QCP43 is placed among present-day Israelis and Jordanians, while QCP29, QCP39, QCP40, and QCP42 fall in the North African cluster
They might have been wealthy traders or soldiers :
quote:Consistently, the recovering of luxury pottery items connects the site to wealthy people (Musco et al.2011). However, a broad paved area, multiple circular rooms,and the ruins of a forge witness the existence of manufactur-ing activities too (Caspio et al. 2009; Musco et al. 2011). The burial ground was set in the Imperial Age (1st–3rdcenturiesCE) close to the memorial area and spread to an artificial hypogeal poly-lobed cavity previously used as a quarry [...] Their typological origin could be traced back to northern African communities and eventually spread to western areas of the Empire (Julia 1965).
Their Mtdna results :
They managed to get one y-dna result :
quote:We leveraged Y chromosome reads to identify the Y-Chrhaplogroup for the males. However, we were able to typeonly one sample proficiently. QCP42 presents variants lead-ing to the T1a (TM70) haplogroup.
[ 13. January 2022, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2719 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Considering the Guanche aDNA samples & the other ancient DNA we have from the region, modern North Africans do seem descendant from ancient ones.
posted
It is well known that Rome and Greece had substantial involvements in North Africa over 2,000 years ago. And there is abundant evidence of bi-directional genetic exchange between North Africa and Europe. So this isn't really anything unsuspected. But you have to put this in proper context when you say "ancient" as there are human remains from North Africa over 100,000 years old. No modern population is a close genetic match to those ancient populations. And it only makes sense that there would be a closer relationship between populations 2,000 years ago and those of the region today. Not to mention all "North Africans" weren't all affected by the same migrations to or from Europe as all "North Africans" are not near the Mediterranean. We know that during the various wet phases the Sahara desert, which is also in "North Africa" was lush and populated going back over 10,000 years ago. This is long before any "Berber" languages and long before Greece and Rome. That DNA is also ancient and I doubt it would match that found in later Greek or coastal North African contexts.
And even before this you had the invasions of Europe by Carthage. But the DNA picture from this period is cloudy because of a lack of relevant ancient DNA from North Africa (pre Roman Carthage, Numidia, etc).
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is well known that Rome and Greece had substantial involvements in North Africa over 2,000 years ago. And there is abundant evidence of bi-directional genetic exchange between North Africa and Europe. So this isn't really anything unsuspected. But you have to put this in proper context when you say "ancient" as there are human remains from North Africa over 100,000 years old. No modern population is a close genetic match to those ancient populations. And it only makes sense that there would be a closer relationship between populations 2,000 years ago and those of the region today. Not to mention all "North Africans" weren't all affected by the same migrations to or from Europe as all "North Africans" are not near the Mediterranean. We know that during the various wet phases the Sahara desert, which is also in "North Africa" was lush and populated going back over 10,000 years ago. This is long before any "Berber" languages and long before Greece and Rome. That DNA is also ancient and I doubt it would match that found in later Greek or coastal North African contexts.
And even before this you had the invasions of Europe by Carthage. But the DNA picture from this period is cloudy because of a lack of relevant ancient DNA from North Africa (pre Roman Carthage, Numidia, etc).
By "ancient" I'm of course talking about antiquity, I don't really see the point of going back 100k years ago or talking about a minority of saharan communities while most north africans lived along the mediterranean shores. The fact that such 2000 years old samples plot with modern north africans imply that slave trades and the arab conquest didn't impacted NW Africa much. Moreover since you talk about prehistoric populations, it's modern north africans who have kept the highest amount of iberomaurusian ancestry (much more mesolithic ancestry preserved than other mediterraneans who were shaped by more recent population movements) and FST distances show IAM, KEB and guanches to be the closest to modern north africans not any other population.
As for Carthage, the forensic datas show them to plot with berbers (including the modern ones) and we see the same pattern for the roman era remains in North Africa. The punic samples we have from Sardinia, Ibiza, italy and maybe south-east Spain all show substantial level of north african admixture (they used to mix with the local european populations).
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is well known that Rome and Greece had substantial involvements in North Africa over 2,000 years ago. And there is abundant evidence of bi-directional genetic exchange between North Africa and Europe. So this isn't really anything unsuspected. But you have to put this in proper context when you say "ancient" as there are human remains from North Africa over 100,000 years old. No modern population is a close genetic match to those ancient populations. And it only makes sense that there would be a closer relationship between populations 2,000 years ago and those of the region today. Not to mention all "North Africans" weren't all affected by the same migrations to or from Europe as all "North Africans" are not near the Mediterranean. We know that during the various wet phases the Sahara desert, which is also in "North Africa" was lush and populated going back over 10,000 years ago. This is long before any "Berber" languages and long before Greece and Rome. That DNA is also ancient and I doubt it would match that found in later Greek or coastal North African contexts.
And even before this you had the invasions of Europe by Carthage. But the DNA picture from this period is cloudy because of a lack of relevant ancient DNA from North Africa (pre Roman Carthage, Numidia, etc).
By "ancient" I'm of course talking about antiquity, I don't really see the point of going back 100k years ago or talking about a minority of saharan communities while most north africans lived along the mediterranean shores.
Context is important. Time period matters. 2,000 years ago is much closer to today than 10,000 years ago. Late antiquity is not as ancient as the Saharan wet phase 10,000 years ago.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: The fact that such 2000 years old samples plot with modern north africans imply that slave trades and the arab conquest didn't impacted NW Africa much.
What do you mean by much? All these groups impacted coastal North African populations, from Greece, to Rome to Iberia and the Arabs. Because the time period being discussed is prior to the Arab conquest and actually shows Roman mixture as one would expect. Every time period has different DNA elements that would be associated with various groups that are known to have been present. So yes, after 700AD there is absolutely Arab mixture in North Africa. The point being all these various events of mixture did have an impact. But all ancient "North Africans" weren't mixed with Eurasians though. It depends on what region and what time frame.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Moreover since you talk about prehistoric populations, it's modern north africans who have kept the highest amount of iberomaurusian ancestry (much more mesolithic ancestry preserved than other mediterraneans who were shaped by more recent population movements) and FST distances show IAM, KEB and guanches to be the closest to modern north africans not any other population.
Iberomaurisan culture is a small part of "North African" history. The Sahara is the biggest geographic part of North African history, through all time periods. And the Nile has the longest continuous record of human activity of any part of North Africa. Therefore relationship to Iberomaurisans is not the hallmark of "North African" identification.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: As for Carthage, the forensic datas show them to plot with berbers (including the modern ones) and we see the same pattern for the roman era remains in North Africa. The punic samples we have from Sardinia, Ibiza, italy and maybe south-east Spain all show substantial level of north african admixture (they used to mix with the local european populations).
Berbers are not a monolith and never have been genetically or culturally. Carthage is one distinct culture from ancient North Africa, the Numidians are another culture and there are plenty of other groups identified by authors in antiquity. All these groups cannot be lumped as one and the same genetically or culturally. It varies over time and place.
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What do you mean by much? All these groups impacted coastal North African populations, from Greece, to Rome to Iberia and the Arabs. Because the time period being discussed is prior to the Arab conquest and actually shows Roman mixture as one would expect. Every time period has different DNA elements that would be associated with various groups that are known to have been present. So yes, after 700AD there is absolutely Arab mixture in North Africa. The point being all these various events of mixture did have an impact. But all ancient "North Africans" weren't mixed with Eurasians though. It depends on what region and what time frame.
That's not in line with the datas we have. And where do you see "roman" admixture in those samples ?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Iberomaurisan culture is a small part of "North African" history. The Sahara is the biggest geographic part of North African history, through all time periods. And the Nile has the longest continuous record of human activity of any part of North Africa. Therefore relationship to Iberomaurisans is not the hallmark of "North African" identification.
I was obviously referring to NW Africans certainly not egyptians (who barely have any IBM type of ancestry) or the small and scattered saharan populations.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Berbers are not a monolith and never have been genetically or culturally. Carthage is one distinct culture from ancient North Africa, the Numidians are another culture and there are plenty of other groups identified by authors in antiquity. All these groups cannot be lumped as one and the same genetically or culturally. It varies over time and place. [/QB]
Genetically most berbers tend to show similar profiles :
quote:The analyses performed showed that current North Africans are closely related to Tunisian (Zrawa and Matmata) and Moroccan (Sousse-Agadir and Eljadida) Berbers, suggesting that North Africans have a genetic Berber profile. On the contrary, North Africans displayed a greater distance from the Arabs of Levant (Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians), indicating low genetic contribution of Phoenician and Levant Arab invasion of North Africa.
The only contrast is with saharan berbers who are much more mixed with their SSA neighbours. And I already told you that the datas show great similarity between protohistoric algerians (the later numidians) and carthaginians (same for roman era algerians who show great similarities to modern berbers like Kabyles) so yes there is a high probability carthaginians were similar to numidians/mauretanians and eastern libyans.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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What do you mean by much? All these groups impacted coastal North African populations, from Greece, to Rome to Iberia and the Arabs. Because the time period being discussed is prior to the Arab conquest and actually shows Roman mixture as one would expect. Every time period has different DNA elements that would be associated with various groups that are known to have been present. So yes, after 700AD there is absolutely Arab mixture in North Africa. The point being all these various events of mixture did have an impact. But all ancient "North Africans" weren't mixed with Eurasians though. It depends on what region and what time frame.
That's not in line with the datas we have. And where do you see "roman" admixture in those samples ?
Are you serious? Why don't you read your own OP?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Iberomaurisan culture is a small part of "North African" history. The Sahara is the biggest geographic part of North African history, through all time periods. And the Nile has the longest continuous record of human activity of any part of North Africa. Therefore relationship to Iberomaurisans is not the hallmark of "North African" identification.
I was obviously referring to NW Africans certainly not egyptians (who barely have any IBM type of ancestry) or the small and scattered saharan populations.
North West Africa, Central North Africa and North East Africa are different regions in North Africa and separated by thousands of miles. They are not a monolithic entity. It is better to be specific because otherwise it is just wrong. And the Sahara (Central North Africa) was not always desert and in the last wet phase had large numbers of people who would not have been characterized as being similar to coastal North West Africans. You cant lump all these people together over time and space as one single monolithic group. That is false.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Berbers are not a monolith and never have been genetically or culturally. Carthage is one distinct culture from ancient North Africa, the Numidians are another culture and there are plenty of other groups identified by authors in antiquity. All these groups cannot be lumped as one and the same genetically or culturally. It varies over time and place.
Genetically most berbers tend to show similar profiles :
quote:The analyses performed showed that current North Africans are closely related to Tunisian (Zrawa and Matmata) and Moroccan (Sousse-Agadir and Eljadida) Berbers, suggesting that North Africans have a genetic Berber profile. On the contrary, North Africans displayed a greater distance from the Arabs of Levant (Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians), indicating low genetic contribution of Phoenician and Levant Arab invasion of North Africa.
The only contrast is with saharan berbers who are much more mixed with their SSA neighbours. And I already told you that the datas show great similarity between protohistoric algerians (the later numidians) and carthaginians (same for roman era algerians who show great similarities to modern berbers like Kabyles) so yes there is a high probability carthaginians were similar to numidians/mauretanians and eastern libyans. [/QB]
The only thing you keep showing is studies of 'mixture' between African specific DNA lineages and DNA lineages from Europe or the Levant. Europe and the Levant are not Africa. And the only "North West African" specific DNA markers are those of Haplogroup E which originates in Africa. Which means that "berber" as a language and culture has an African origin even if some Berbers are mixed. But that language and culture did not originate in Europe or the Levant it originated in East Africa and migrated across the Sahara.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Are you serious? Why don't you read your own OP?
??? literally none of what I posted show roman admixture
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: North West Africa, Central North Africa and North East Africa are different regions in North Africa and separated by thousands of miles. They are not a monolithic entity. It is better to be specific because otherwise it is just wrong. And the Sahara (Central North Africa) was not always desert and in the last wet phase had large numbers of people who would not have been characterized as being similar to coastal North West Africans. You cant lump all these people together over time and space as one single monolithic group. That is false.
The Sahara has never been all green that's a myth it was simply less dry than today but still many areas were desertic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The only thing you keep showing is studies of 'mixture' between African specific DNA lineages and DNA lineages from Europe or the Levant. Europe and the Levant are not Africa. And the only "North West African" specific DNA markers are those of Haplogroup E which originates in Africa. Which means that "berber" as a language and culture has an African origin even if some Berbers are mixed. But that language and culture did not originate in Europe or the Levant it originated in East Africa and migrated across the Sahara. [/QB]
the studies also show that "european" and "levantine" "lineages" were brought mostly during prehistorical times moreover "lineages" aren't going to tell us much about a population autosomal composition.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Carthage was established by the Phoenicians; they obviously mixed with the locals but all the material elements of that civilization came from Phoenicia.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Are you serious? Why don't you read your own OP?
??? literally none of what I posted show roman admixture
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: North West Africa, Central North Africa and North East Africa are different regions in North Africa and separated by thousands of miles. They are not a monolithic entity. It is better to be specific because otherwise it is just wrong. And the Sahara (Central North Africa) was not always desert and in the last wet phase had large numbers of people who would not have been characterized as being similar to coastal North West Africans. You cant lump all these people together over time and space as one single monolithic group. That is false.
The Sahara has never been all green that's a myth it was simply less dry than today but still many areas were desertic.
Many studies have shown that the Sahara was once lush all the way from the Mediterranean to Sahel and full of lakes and rivers. Lake Chad was once a mega lake or inland sea. So this image from National Geographic is not entirely accurate in portraying the wet phase at its height. The point being that nothing is static in time and space and you cannot use one small population in one region as a proxy for all populations over thousands of years that have fluctuated due to migration and environment changes.
Note I am not saying you created this idea but that is the common narrative presented in these papers on "North Africa".
It has long been recognised that the Sahara Desert contains sediment, landform and palaeoecological evidence for phases of increased humidity during the Quaternary period. Many authors have also suggested that during some of these humid periods very large lakes, termed megalakes, developed in several basins within the Sahara. Recent work has questioned their existence. In particular it has been argued that the lack of well-developed and spatially extensive shorelines in these basins suggests that discrete groundwater and spring deposits have been misinterpreted as evidence for megalakes. In this paper we re-evaluate the evidence used to identify megalakes. Firstly, we apply a comprehensive remote sensing and GIS analyses to the megalake shorelines, their catchments and the wider Sahara. This not only supports the previously proposed existence of numerous megalakes, but also indicates a previously unrecognised megalake in the Niger Inland Delta region, here named Megalake Timbuktu. Secondly, we review the geomorphic and sedimentary evidence for the megalakes, highlighting the importance of the sedimentary record in identifying lake highstands, particularly through the example of the Chotts Megalake in southern Tunisia where we provide new sedimentary information on lake shorelines. This analysis demonstrates that in much of the Sahara the dynamic aeolian systems preclude the preservation of well-developed shorelines, but the distribution of fragmented geomorphic features and localised lake deposits provide robust evidence for Quaternary megalake formation.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The only thing you keep showing is studies of 'mixture' between African specific DNA lineages and DNA lineages from Europe or the Levant. Europe and the Levant are not Africa. And the only "North West African" specific DNA markers are those of Haplogroup E which originates in Africa. Which means that "berber" as a language and culture has an African origin even if some Berbers are mixed. But that language and culture did not originate in Europe or the Levant it originated in East Africa and migrated across the Sahara.
the studies also show that "european" and "levantine" "lineages" were brought mostly during prehistorical times moreover "lineages" aren't going to tell us much about a population autosomal composition.
Haplogroup E is the "North African" marker. That did not come from Europe or Asia autosomal or otherwise. Berber language and culture did not originate in Europe or Asia and therefore the presence of Europeans or others did not create that culture even though some of those did adopt it through mixture.
quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Carthage was established by the Phoenicians; they obviously mixed with the locals but all the material elements of that civilization came from Phoenicia.
There are numerous lines of evidence showing the African element among the Carthagenians and Phoenicians. The Phoenicians were once Egyptianized and a defacto element of the Egyptian navy. The Pheonicians in Carthage do not represent population replacement.
quote: The morphological characteristics indicating African ancestry in crania from Punic contexts in Ibiza identified by Márquez-Grant57 could be consistent with our aDNA results if the African admixture in Ibiza was male dominated. Alternatively, aDNA analyses of additional Phoenician samples from Ibiza may indeed find non-European mtDNA lineages, but to date, we have only observed what appears to be a typical European, and primarily Western European signature
Note that the island of Ibiza got its name from this period and is associated with the God Bes from the Nile Valley. Many of the coins from the Phoenician period have images of this god on them along with many Africans. So regardless if the Phoenicians created a trade settlement or not there, Carthage was an African culture.
quote: Genre subjects in the Phoenician series are acted either by figures presented in Greek style (see 29) or Africans. The choice is perhaps odd, and in this group, the style of which is of the best, the African seems presented almost as a Greek ephebe might have been. This may reflect interestingly on their status in Phoenician society. The group has been studied in greater detail in J. Boardman, Eirene 31 (1995) 62-68. Most of the figures wear a short dress or kilt.
quote: Worship of Bes spread as far north as the area of Syria and as far west as the Balearic Islands (Ibiza) in Spain, and later into the Roman and Achaemenid Empires.
quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Carthage was established by the Phoenicians; they obviously mixed with the locals but all the material elements of that civilization came from Phoenicia.
Wrong they also got slightly influenced by local berber people :
quote:Habib Ben Younès and Alia Krandel-Ben Younès (ch. 8) survey the funerary practices in Punic and Libyan (Numidian) nekropoleis of the Tunisian Sahel, illustrating how cultural influence worked both ways and how the variations within Punic practices were inflected by the fluid contact with Libyan populations. At the same time, the Numidians, who were acculturated to some degree, maintained anoticeable degree of distinctiveness vis-à-vis the more heavily Punic areas.
quote:Here is what Maria Giulia Amadasi Guzzo[53], professor at the University of Rome, writes on this subject: "The best documented rite for the High Period is that of burial. [...] Cremation is in the minority and seems to be concentrated in certain sectors (Douimes, Juno Hill and Byrsa). It has been assumed that the deceased cremated at this period must have retained a specific link with the mother country. The preponderance of burial, on the contrary, would come from a significant mixing of the population with the indigenous Libyans (Lancel, 1992, 67-68).
quote:The historian also gives precious information on the toponymy of the place and the Numidian environment of the region of the Cape Bon: "Before it was irrigated by the Punic culture, the region seems to have been inhabited by Libyan tribes. [...] Traces of their indigenous origins can be seen in the toponymy, which is fundamentally Libyan; most of the names of places, towns, villages, rivers, fields, etc., belong to the substratum of Berberism: Taguerdouch, Tafelloune, Tazoghrane, Tazerka, Taouzdra, etc. ... [The Punic city of Kerkouane also seems to have had a toponym of Libyan origin: we believe to have recognized it in the place called Tamezrat. A Berber city of Matmata, in Tunisia of the Southeast, carries this same toponym ". 10.6.3 The excavations have also confirmed the presence of an indigenous population, thus confirming the established interbreeding. "As regards the background of the population, there are indications that would favor a strong Libyan component: architectural programs, including the layout in enfilade, certain funeral practices, such as the use of red ocher, and especially the burial in lateral decubitus contracted
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Many studies have shown that the Sahara was once lush all the way from the Mediterranean to Sahel and full of lakes and rivers. Lake Chad was once a mega lake or inland sea. So this image from National Geographic is not entirely accurate in portraying the wet phase at its height. The point being that nothing is static in time and space and you cannot use one small population in one region as a proxy for all populations over thousands of years that have fluctuated due to migration and environment changes.
Note I am not saying you created this idea but that is the common narrative presented in these papers on "North Africa".
It has long been recognised that the Sahara Desert contains sediment, landform and palaeoecological evidence for phases of increased humidity during the Quaternary period. Many authors have also suggested that during some of these humid periods very large lakes, termed megalakes, developed in several basins within the Sahara. Recent work has questioned their existence. In particular it has been argued that the lack of well-developed and spatially extensive shorelines in these basins suggests that discrete groundwater and spring deposits have been misinterpreted as evidence for megalakes. In this paper we re-evaluate the evidence used to identify megalakes. Firstly, we apply a comprehensive remote sensing and GIS analyses to the megalake shorelines, their catchments and the wider Sahara. This not only supports the previously proposed existence of numerous megalakes, but also indicates a previously unrecognised megalake in the Niger Inland Delta region, here named Megalake Timbuktu. Secondly, we review the geomorphic and sedimentary evidence for the megalakes, highlighting the importance of the sedimentary record in identifying lake highstands, particularly through the example of the Chotts Megalake in southern Tunisia where we provide new sedimentary information on lake shorelines. This analysis demonstrates that in much of the Sahara the dynamic aeolian systems preclude the preservation of well-developed shorelines, but the distribution of fragmented geomorphic features and localised lake deposits provide robust evidence for Quaternary megalake formation.
That's outdated, recent studies show there was no "megalakes" :
quote:The Sahara was wetter and greener during multiple interglacial periods of the Quaternary, when some have suggested it featured very large (mega) lakes, ranging in surface area from 30,000 to 350,000 km2. In this paper, we review the physical and biological evidence for these large lakes, especially during the African Humid Period (AHP) 11–5 ka. Megalake systems from around the world provide a checklist of diagnostic features, such as multiple well-defined shoreline benches, wave-rounded beach gravels where coarse material is present, landscape smoothing by lacustrine sediment, large-scale deltaic deposits, and in places, tufas encrusting shorelines. Our survey reveals no clear evidence of these features in the Sahara, except in the Chad basin. Hydrologic modeling of the proposed megalakes requires mean annual rainfall =1.2 m/yr and a northward displacement of tropical rainfall belts by =1000 km. Such a profound displacement is not supported by other paleo-climate proxies and comprehensive climate models, challenging the existence of megalakes in the Sahara. Rather than megalakes, isolated wetlands and small lakes are more consistent with the Sahelo-Sudanian paleoenvironment that prevailed in the Sahara during the AHP. A pale-green and discontinuously wet Sahara is the likelier context for human migrations out of Africa during the late Quaternary.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Haplogroup E is the "North African" marker. That did not come from Europe or Asia autosomal or otherwise. Berber language and culture did not originate in Europe or Asia and therefore the presence of Europeans or others did not create that culture even though some of those did adopt it through mixture.
What's your point ? Modern north africans are predominantely under E and how do you know proto-berber didn't come from Asia ? It could have been "african" but I don't see why we should define a culture by continent ?? Also are you implying there is a homogeneous berber culture that didn't change since the Neolithic ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Many studies have shown that the Sahara was once lush all the way from the Mediterranean to Sahel and full of lakes and rivers. Lake Chad was once a mega lake or inland sea. So this image from National Geographic is not entirely accurate in portraying the wet phase at its height. The point being that nothing is static in time and space and you cannot use one small population in one region as a proxy for all populations over thousands of years that have fluctuated due to migration and environment changes.
Note I am not saying you created this idea but that is the common narrative presented in these papers on "North Africa".
It has long been recognised that the Sahara Desert contains sediment, landform and palaeoecological evidence for phases of increased humidity during the Quaternary period. Many authors have also suggested that during some of these humid periods very large lakes, termed megalakes, developed in several basins within the Sahara. Recent work has questioned their existence. In particular it has been argued that the lack of well-developed and spatially extensive shorelines in these basins suggests that discrete groundwater and spring deposits have been misinterpreted as evidence for megalakes. In this paper we re-evaluate the evidence used to identify megalakes. Firstly, we apply a comprehensive remote sensing and GIS analyses to the megalake shorelines, their catchments and the wider Sahara. This not only supports the previously proposed existence of numerous megalakes, but also indicates a previously unrecognised megalake in the Niger Inland Delta region, here named Megalake Timbuktu. Secondly, we review the geomorphic and sedimentary evidence for the megalakes, highlighting the importance of the sedimentary record in identifying lake highstands, particularly through the example of the Chotts Megalake in southern Tunisia where we provide new sedimentary information on lake shorelines. This analysis demonstrates that in much of the Sahara the dynamic aeolian systems preclude the preservation of well-developed shorelines, but the distribution of fragmented geomorphic features and localised lake deposits provide robust evidence for Quaternary megalake formation.
That's outdated, recent studies show there was no "megalakes" :
quote:The Sahara was wetter and greener during multiple interglacial periods of the Quaternary, when some have suggested it featured very large (mega) lakes, ranging in surface area from 30,000 to 350,000 km2. In this paper, we review the physical and biological evidence for these large lakes, especially during the African Humid Period (AHP) 11–5 ka. Megalake systems from around the world provide a checklist of diagnostic features, such as multiple well-defined shoreline benches, wave-rounded beach gravels where coarse material is present, landscape smoothing by lacustrine sediment, large-scale deltaic deposits, and in places, tufas encrusting shorelines. Our survey reveals no clear evidence of these features in the Sahara, except in the Chad basin. Hydrologic modeling of the proposed megalakes requires mean annual rainfall =1.2 m/yr and a northward displacement of tropical rainfall belts by =1000 km. Such a profound displacement is not supported by other paleo-climate proxies and comprehensive climate models, challenging the existence of megalakes in the Sahara. Rather than megalakes, isolated wetlands and small lakes are more consistent with the Sahelo-Sudanian paleoenvironment that prevailed in the Sahara during the AHP. A pale-green and discontinuously wet Sahara is the likelier context for human migrations out of Africa during the late Quaternary.
The paper I posted was from 4 days ago and the paper you posted is from 2018. Yours is outdated literally and the reason why there has been some confusion is because the desert distorts the geographical features used to identify ancient bodies of water. Either way the point still is that populations in "North Africa" have fluctuated over time and cannot be pigeonholed into one specific area or region based on modern geography.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Haplogroup E is the "North African" marker. That did not come from Europe or Asia autosomal or otherwise. Berber language and culture did not originate in Europe or Asia and therefore the presence of Europeans or others did not create that culture even though some of those did adopt it through mixture.
What's your point ? Modern north africans are predominantely under E and how do you know proto-berber didn't come from Asia ? It could have been "african" but I don't see why we should define a culture by continent ?? Also are you implying there is a homogeneous berber culture that didn't change since the Neolithic ?
My point is obvious. Haplogroup E came from Africa not migrants from Europe or Asia. How is that hard to understand. And there are numerous linguistic scholars who point out that Berber languages originated in East Africa. These languages migrated to North West Africa most likely as a result of the drying Sahara about 5,000 years ago. Which means that calling any and all ancient populations "berbers" in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is nonsense and berber languages did not originate with Iberomaurisans either.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The paper I posted was from 4 days ago and the paper you posted is from 2018. Yours is outdated literally and the reason why there has been some confusion is because the desert distorts the geographical features used to identify ancient bodies of water. Either way the point still is that populations in "North Africa" have fluctuated over time and cannot be pigeonholed into one specific area or region based on modern geography.
Your paper actually confirms what I posted; there was no megalakes during the humid holocene :
quote:The paper concludes by highlighting that although extensive evidence for Saharan megalake formation exists, the current chronology of lake highstands indicates that the vast majority date to Marine Isotope Stage (MIS) 5 or earlier. Only megalakes Chad and Timbuktu, which derive much of their water from outside the desert, show evidence for Holocene (African Humid Period or AHP) shorelines.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: My point is obvious. Haplogroup E came from Africa not migrants from Europe or Asia. How is that hard to understand. And there are numerous linguistic scholars who point out that Berber languages originated in East Africa. These languages migrated to North West Africa most likely as a result of the drying Sahara about 5,000 years ago. Which means that calling any and all ancient populations "berbers" in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is nonsense and berber languages did not originate with Iberomaurisans either.
not really "east africa" but north-east africa especially the delta area and I never called such old populations "berbers" even though 5k years ago they already existed since proto-berber is older than that.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The paper I posted was from 4 days ago and the paper you posted is from 2018. Yours is outdated literally and the reason why there has been some confusion is because the desert distorts the geographical features used to identify ancient bodies of water. Either way the point still is that populations in "North Africa" have fluctuated over time and cannot be pigeonholed into one specific area or region based on modern geography.
Your paper actually confirms what I posted; there was no megalakes during the humid holocene :
quote:The paper concludes by highlighting that although extensive evidence for Saharan megalake formation exists, the current chronology of lake highstands indicates that the vast majority date to Marine Isotope Stage (MIS) 5 or earlier. Only megalakes Chad and Timbuktu, which derive much of their water from outside the desert, show evidence for Holocene (African Humid Period or AHP) shorelines.
The paper literally says there were two mega lakes: Lake Chad and Timbuktu along with other smaller bodies of water. How is that NOT saying there were megalakes in this period? But it wasn't just mega lakes, there were rivers and other smaller normal size lakes.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: My point is obvious. Haplogroup E came from Africa not migrants from Europe or Asia. How is that hard to understand. And there are numerous linguistic scholars who point out that Berber languages originated in East Africa. These languages migrated to North West Africa most likely as a result of the drying Sahara about 5,000 years ago. Which means that calling any and all ancient populations "berbers" in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is nonsense and berber languages did not originate with Iberomaurisans either.
not really "east africa" but north-east africa especially the delta area and I never called such old populations "berbers" even though 5k years ago they already existed since proto-berber is older than that. [/QB]
Haplogroup E did not originate in the Nile Delta and neither did proto-berber. Most sources on the history of Berber languages set its origin point in between Southern Libya and Northern Sudan. And the ancestors of the Tuareg are likely one of these groups.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The paper literally says there were two mega lakes: Lake Chad and Timbuktu along with other smaller bodies of water. How is that NOT saying there were megalakes in this period? But it wasn't just mega lakes, there were rivers and other smaller normal size lakes.
These are not really in North Africa + two lakes do not contradict what I posted a good part of the Sahara was still desertic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Haplogroup E did not originate in the Nile Delta and neither did proto-berber. Most sources on the history of Berber languages set its origin point in between Southern Libya and Northern Sudan. And the ancestors of the Tuareg are likely one of these groups. [/QB]
How do you know where E and proto-berber originated ? And tuaregs came recently in the Sahara :
quote:Although the Tuareg are presently the most widespread group, found across much of Algeria, Niger and southern Libya (Bernus 1981), their expansion is probably relatively recent as they may have entered the southcentral Sahara as late as the 6th century AD (Camps 1974).
Roger Blench, Linguistic and archaeological evidence for berber prehistory, p. 1
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
How can I be on a crusade for "pure white north africa" if I said many times that black communities like Tebu and some haratin are indigenous to the sahara ?
Saharan "mega lakes" doesn't mean anything but I know the "green sahara" is often used by afrocentrists to claim it has never been a geographical barrier therefore everyone was black from morocco to south Africa lol and you don't take into account the fact that movements can go both ways therefore it explain why some sahelian groups have IBM ancestry.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
I don't admit anything I'm just answering to your assumption
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Carthage was established by the Phoenicians; they obviously mixed with the locals but all the material elements of that civilization came from Phoenicia.
Wrong they also got slightly influenced by local berber people :
quote:Habib Ben Younès and Alia Krandel-Ben Younès (ch. 8) survey the funerary practices in Punic and Libyan (Numidian) nekropoleis of the Tunisian Sahel, illustrating how cultural influence worked both ways and how the variations within Punic practices were inflected by the fluid contact with Libyan populations. At the same time, the Numidians, who were acculturated to some degree, maintained anoticeable degree of distinctiveness vis-à-vis the more heavily Punic areas.
quote:Here is what Maria Giulia Amadasi Guzzo[53], professor at the University of Rome, writes on this subject: "The best documented rite for the High Period is that of burial. [...] Cremation is in the minority and seems to be concentrated in certain sectors (Douimes, Juno Hill and Byrsa). It has been assumed that the deceased cremated at this period must have retained a specific link with the mother country. The preponderance of burial, on the contrary, would come from a significant mixing of the population with the indigenous Libyans (Lancel, 1992, 67-68).
quote:The historian also gives precious information on the toponymy of the place and the Numidian environment of the region of the Cape Bon: "Before it was irrigated by the Punic culture, the region seems to have been inhabited by Libyan tribes. [...] Traces of their indigenous origins can be seen in the toponymy, which is fundamentally Libyan; most of the names of places, towns, villages, rivers, fields, etc., belong to the substratum of Berberism: Taguerdouch, Tafelloune, Tazoghrane, Tazerka, Taouzdra, etc. ... [The Punic city of Kerkouane also seems to have had a toponym of Libyan origin: we believe to have recognized it in the place called Tamezrat. A Berber city of Matmata, in Tunisia of the Southeast, carries this same toponym ". 10.6.3 The excavations have also confirmed the presence of an indigenous population, thus confirming the established interbreeding. "As regards the background of the population, there are indications that would favor a strong Libyan component: architectural programs, including the layout in enfilade, certain funeral practices, such as the use of red ocher, and especially the burial in lateral decubitus contracted
quote:Originally posted by sudanese: When I mentioned "material" I was referring to writing, science, math, medicine and architecture.
The Berbers didn't create any of those elements for Carthage. [/qb]
Because you have data about carthaginian science/Medecine ? Not even historians have this lol
As for writing, berbers already had their own system and only a few character were taken from the phoenician alphabet as for "architecture" it was under heavy hellenistic influence (and one of the quote I posted talk about berber architectural influence).
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: When I mentioned "material" I was referring to writing, science, math, medicine and architecture.
The Berbers didn't create any of those elements for Carthage.
Because you have data about carthaginian science/Medecine ? Not even historians have this lol
As for writing, berbers already had their own system and only a few character were taken from the phoenician alphabet as for "architecture" it was under heavy hellenistic influence (and one of the quote I posted talk about berber architectural influence). [/QB]
Do you really think that a civilised people (Phoenicians) relied on the Berbers for any of the building blocks of civilization?
It makes sense for the Phoenicians to have developed or acquired their science and medicine from the Egyptians, Greeks or other civilizations in that area.
I'm well aware of the Libyco-Berber script and that its oldest verified existence is to around the period of 130 BC.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: When I mentioned "material" I was referring to writing, science, math, medicine and architecture.
The Berbers didn't create any of those elements for Carthage.
Because you have data about carthaginian science/Medecine ? Not even historians have this lol
As for writing, berbers already had their own system and only a few character were taken from the phoenician alphabet as for "architecture" it was under heavy hellenistic influence (and one of the quote I posted talk about berber architectural influence).
Do you really think that a civilised people (Phoenicians) relied on the Berbers for any of the building blocks of civilization?
It makes sense for the Phoenicians to have developed or acquired their science and medicine from the Egyptians, Greeks or other civilizations in that area.
I'm well aware of the Libyco-Berber script and that its oldest verified existence is to around the period of 130 BC. [/QB]
I never implied they got civilized by berbers I simply implied your statement was exaggerated and yes "130 BC" that's why we literally have inscriptions from at least the VIth century BC.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
can you stop spamming the pictures of unknown people and contribute to our discussions Mr. Ty daniels
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: When I mentioned "material" I was referring to writing, science, math, medicine and architecture.
The Berbers didn't create any of those elements for Carthage.
Because you have data about carthaginian science/Medecine ? Not even historians have this lol
As for writing, berbers already had their own system and only a few character were taken from the phoenician alphabet as for "architecture" it was under heavy hellenistic influence (and one of the quote I posted talk about berber architectural influence).
Do you really think that a civilised people (Phoenicians) relied on the Berbers for any of the building blocks of civilization?
It makes sense for the Phoenicians to have developed or acquired their science and medicine from the Egyptians, Greeks or other civilizations in that area.
I'm well aware of the Libyco-Berber script and that its oldest verified existence is to around the period of 130 BC.
I never implied they got civilized by berbers I simply implied your statement was exaggerated and yes "130 BC" that's why we literally have inscriptions from at least the VIth century BC. [/QB]
Proto-writing is not evidence of literacy because a lot of cultures could be given that title if we stretch the definition like that.
The 'Nubian' Ta-Seti civilization was developing what seemed like proto-writing before 3200 BC, but we can't use that as evidence of their writing; Meroitic is significantly younger than that.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudanese: Proto-writing is not evidence of literacy because a lot of cultures could be given that title if we stretch the definition like that.
The 'Nubian' Ta-Seti civilization was developing what seemed like proto-writing before 3200 BC, but we can't use that as evidence of their writing; Meroitic is significantly younger than that. [/QB]
Idk from where you get such narrow definition but the papers I read clearly mention a script being used already during the VIth century I don't see why that should be occulted. Because it wasn't ordered by a centralized government ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Dude Doxed himself by posting his pictures..
His racist twitter account was easy enough to find after that...
By the way Antalas is the same banned Nassbean account..
If you go back and look he was pic spamming Juba and Massina back then and is doing the same now Having the same exact arguments about north africans..
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2719 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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