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Kush vs rome war that is more detailed and more accurate below. The One-Eyed African Queen Who Defeated the Roman Empire
Part I:WHERE WOMEN WERE WORSHIPED
quote: Kush was part of a region below Egypt known as Nubia. It was a place where, unlike most of the world at the time, women exercised significant control. In the Nubian valley, worship of the queen of all goddesses, Isis, was paramount, and Nubia had several female rulers during its history. Queen Amanirenas reigned over Nubia from 40 B.C. to 10 B.C. Her throne was in the city of Meroë, and from there she and her husband, King Teriteqas, presided over the wealthy kingdom. Janice Kamrin, curator of Egyptian art at the Metropolitan Museum, writes that “based on its position as an intermediary between the Mediterranean world and sub-Saharan Africa, Nubia was a key transit point for luxury goods such as ivory and exotic objects. Of great importance was gold, a commodity found in the Nubian deserts and greatly prized by the Egyptians.” To satisfy the demands of their luxury-loving populace, the Egyptians highly depended on trade with Meroë, which Queen Amanirenas controlled. Her labyrinthine palace, with massive brick-vaulted rooms lined with gold leaf, was a warehouse stocked with great blocks of gold and ivory tusks. She bartered her treasures for goods from Egypt, including cloth, corn, bronze bowls and glassware. But 10 years into the reign of Amanirenas, the political landscape changed when Augustus seized control of Egypt from the grasp of Mark Antony and Cleopatra. He proclaimed himself emperor and established Egypt as a Roman province. He was now on Queen Amanirenas’s doorstep. Before leaving Egypt to continue his quest to seize more territories, Augustus appointed a military colleague named Gaius Cornelius Gallus, a Roman poet and knight whom he had a close relationship with, giving him the title of praefectus Alexandreae et Aegypti, prefect of Alexandria and Egypt. Only a year after the conquest, the Egyptians in the south rebelled against Roman rule, causing Cornelius to lead his forces south to repress the dissidence. After regaining order, he crossed into Amanirenas’s Nubia and laid claim to the island of Philae. He brought a local ruler there under Roman control, and in return for paying homage to Rome, he gave this dynast the powerful title of tyrannus (tyrant). As a sign of intimidation and also his ego, Cornelius had his achievements inscribed on a large stone tablet that was erected in Philae. To publicize his fame, he listed the victories in Latin, Greek and hieroglyphic Egyptian. The monument, dated 16 April 29 B.C., read in part: “Gaius Cornelius Gallus son of Gnaius, the Roman cavalryman, first prefect of Alexandria and Egypt after the defeat of kings by Caesar son of the divine, and the vanquisher of Thebaid’s revolution in fifteen days.” Queen Amanirenas reluctantly accepted the annexation of a part of her kingdom. Recognizing the military supremacy of the Roman legions, she saw that it was not time to fight yet. Instead, she watched the enemy’s moves closely. Soon after, the Nubians in the annexed regions started complaining about the tyrannus. On the orders of Cornelius, he was imposing increased taxes on the traders who brought goods to the frontier and claiming tax rights over autonomous Nubian communities allied to Kush. Cornelius, for his part, continued to celebrate his exploits with grandiose monuments. Roman historian Cassius Dio, who lived from 155 to 235 A.D., described how “he set up images of himself practically everywhere in Egypt and inscribed a list of his achievements, even upon the very pyramids.” These extravagances were not looked upon kindly back in Rome, where the standard directive was to glorify the emperor, not his underlings. Cassius added that Cornelius “indulged in a great deal of disrespectful gossip about Augustus and was guilty of many reprehensible actions besides.” Suffice it to say, he was on the outs with Emperor Augustus, who ultimately disenfranchised Cornelius and issued many indictments against him. The Roman Senate unanimously voted that he should be convicted in the courts, exiled and deprived of his estate. Overwhelmed by his bleak prospects, Cornelius killed himself before the decrees took effect.
quote: Both during and after the time of Cornelius, the massive Roman Empire kept expanding. This growing footprint made it difficult for Augustus to keep tabs on all corners of his kingdom at the same time — something Queen Amanirenas paid close attention to. In 26 B.C., Emperor Augustus appointed Aelius Gallus, another Roman knight, as the next prefect of Egypt. Gallus had hardly settled in when the emperor commanded him to undertake a military expedition to Arabia. Three complete legions, approximately 15,000 troops in all, had been posted in Egypt to secure the province, but at Augustus’s command, many were transferred to Arabia to help in securing this newly sought territory. This presented Queen Amanirenas with an opportunity to challenge Rome’s power. While the Roman troops were being removed from Egypt, Queen Amanirenas marshaled her army to liberate her people up north from Roman authority. Together with King Teriteqas, they commanded an army of 30,000 warriors from Kush, marching along the mudflats of the Nile and into Egypt. Historian Cassius Dio narrates in Roman History that the Meroitic army “advanced as far as the city called Elephantine, with Candace as their leader, ravaging everything they encountered.” They took the entire Triakontaschoinos region, including Syene, Philae and Elephantine, a terrain of 200 square miles. Strabo adds that in these cities, the Kushites “enslaved the inhabitants, and threw down the statues of Cæsar.” They then retreated south with loot, Roman prisoners and thousands of Egyptian captives. As a last insult, they lopped off and carried away the head of a statue of Augustus. Upon arriving back home in Meroë, Queen Amanirenas took the bronze head, with its neatly disarrayed hair, protuberant ears and startling open eyes of colored glass, and buried it beneath the entryway steps of a temple dedicated to the god Amun. David Francis, an interpretation officer at the British Museum, said in an interview with Culture24 that, “in burying the head, the Meroites ensured that everyone who entered the building would trample this image of the emperor Augustus beneath their feet — ritually perpetuating their victory over the Romans.” It was the queen’s daily reminder that she had triumphed over the most powerful man in the world. The Kushite victory did not last long. When the news reached Alexandria, the acting governor Gaius Petronius set out with a cavalry of 800, plus 10,000 Roman infantry. By then, the Kushite army had withdrawn to the city of Pselchis. Petronius pursued them, sending envoys ahead to demand the return of the captives. But the envoys were confused. They found that there was no leader in command of the warriors. By this, they meant no male leader. King Teriteqas had died suddenly of sickness or injury, and they simply could not comprehend that a queen alone ruled the Kushites. Yet Kush did have a leader, and she was not done fighting yet. The queen’s warriors, having assembled at Pselchis, came forward to battle, each carrying a large oblong shield made of raw ox hide and armed with an array of axes, pikes and swords. They outnumbered the Romans by almost three to one, but Strabo reported that they were “poorly marshaled and badly armed” compared with the heavily armored, well-drilled legionary ranks. The Romans drove them into retreat, and many of the Kushite warriors fled back to the city or into the desert. Some warriors escaped the battlefield by wading out into the Nile. They hoped to make a stand at a defensive position on a small island, but the Romans secured rafts and boats to capture the island and take them prisoner. This time, the emboldened Romans invaded much deeper into Kushite territory than before. Petronius also captured some of Queen Amanirenas’s generals, whom he questioned about their leadership structure. They told him that the Kandake was the ruler in their kingdom. But they also distracted his attention with tales of a male leader. The generals informed Petronius that Akinidad, son of Queen Amanirenas, was based in the northern city of Napata, their ancient capital and holy city, which housed important temples and royal cemeteries. Unbeknownst to Petronius, this was a ruse, as the Kushite rulers had deliberately left Napata hundreds of years earlier. Petronius confidently marched to Napata, sure that victory there would subdue the Kushites for good. He found that Prince Akinidad was in fact not there and that the actual capital, Meroë, was still more than 330 miles south. Angered at being misled, he burned the city and rounded up its occupants for transport back to Egypt as slaves. But the queen’s ruse had worked. Petronius had marched so far and now did not have the capacity to unleash his army on the kingdom’s true ruler. He had already traveled more than 570 miles from Syene, a distance almost as long as the entire length of Egypt. Strabo wrote that Petronius “decided that the regions beyond would be difficult to traverse.” Cassius Dio added that “there was no advantage to be gained by remaining where he was with his entire force, so he withdrew, taking the greater part of the army with him.” But Queen Amanirenas and her forces did not share his sense of exhaustion. She counterattacked with vigor, fiercely pursuing the retreating Romans back to the fortified hilltop city of Primis. The queen herself was a fearsome presence on the battlefield. Her “masculine character,” as Strabo described her, referred to her commanding presence as a war leader. She towered above her troops, sporting three facial scars on her cheeks; these were indicators of physical beauty for the Meroë queens, which some Sudanese women still wear today. In one battle, as she clashed with the Romans, an enemy soldier injured the queen, blinding her in one eye. Strabo’s description of the queen as “masculine” was in line with how Greco-Romans viewed powerful female rulers. Professor Brittany Wilson writes in Unmanly Men that the Greeks and Romans depicted foreign queens in a negative light and even viewed female leaders as a sign of a nation’s barbarity. These queens were often portrayed as “manly women” who went beyond the bounds of proper female behavior. Governor Petronius looked down on the queen’s new disability as well; from then on he referred to her derisively as “the One-Eyed Candace,” judging her “deficient” eyesight as mirroring her deficient insight as a ruler. Yet again, these men underestimated Queen Amanirenas. After her wound healed, she returned to the front line. Losing an eye in battle only made Amanirenas stronger and braver. But her suffering was not over. When her troops reached Dakka in 24 B.C., clashing with the Romans to ensure Kush’s sovereignty, her son Prince Akinidad was killed in the campaign. She had lost her husband, her eye and now her son. As a leader, many of her warriors had been killed in the fight, her generals and some of her people had been abducted, and her city of Napata sacked and razed. And still the war was far from over. But now she had but one thing left to fight for: her kingdom. Fueled by grief and anger, the Kandake, now blind in one eye, fought on.
quote: Up until this point, Queen Amanirenas and her troops had been fighting a defensive war, aimed at keeping the Romans from permanently annexing any part of her kingdom. But after the destruction of Napata and the death of Prince Akinidad, they went on the attack. Over the next two years, she fought with all she had to offer. Her fearlessness even forced the admiration of Strabo, who said, “This queen has a courage above that of her gender.” In 22 B.C., she marshaled a second force of thousands of Kushite fighters and marched toward the Roman troops who had set up camp in Primis, now the border of the Roman Empire. It was a face-off of epic proportions. Based on the geography of Primis, it is nearly certain that the Kushite warriors entirely surrounded Petronius and his men. However, the Romans had a large array of ballista — ancient canons that, although less deadly than military weapons today, could still fire deadly darts over long distances. This made a frontal assault by Queen Amanirenas nearly impossible; she would have lost countless warriors. Yet Petronius was surrounded and had no way to escape. A stalemate. Petronius was extremely eager for a ceasefire. Since becoming prefect of Egypt, Queen Amanirenas had untiringly engaged him in war, not giving him a moment’s peace to officiate his administrative duties of supervising tax levies, or even enough time to take part in the celebratory festivals, chariot races and hunting parties that the more leisurely nobles in Alexandria enjoyed. And now he was trapped in a hilltop city, with seemingly no way out. Realizing there was no way forward, Petronius urged Queen Amanirenas to meet with Emperor Augustus himself and settle matters. The Meroë warriors offered a prideful response: They claimed in jest that they did not know who the “Caesar” was, or where they could find him. Petronius, surely not appreciating the joke but eager to escape his current predicament, responded by giving them escorts to the Greek island of Samos, where the emperor was preparing for an expedition to Syria. Dr. Robert Steven Bianchi, a renowned Egyptologist, writes in Daily Life of the Nubians that “this is believed to be the first recorded instance in the entire history of Africa when diplomats representing a Black African ruler independent of Egypt traveled to Europe to effect a diplomatic resolution.” By sending her envoys and not going personally, Amanirenas showed herself to be superior to the emperor and Rome. She would not deign to travel hundreds of miles just to negotiate; she had people who could do that for her. And the one-eyed queen indeed emerged victorious. The five-year war had cost the Romans many men and lots of money — a continued war with the tenacious Queen Amanirenas was not high on the imperial agenda. At the Treaty of Samos in 21 B.C., Caesar Augustus declared Kush to be sovereign and remitted all claims of tribute. Roman troops evacuated Primis and also ceded the areas in the southern portion of the Thirty-Mile Strip to the Kushites. They pulled back to Dodekaschoinos, which was established as the new border. Along with his signature on the official treaty, as one more step to appease the Nubian people, Augustus directed his administrators to collaborate with regional priests on the enlargement of a temple at Kalabsha, as well as the erection of another at Dendur.
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In all honesty, a docu-series on Amanirenas would be a welcome follow-up to the Cleopatra one we got, especially since Cleo and Amani would have been contemporaries.
quote: It is hard to take this "documentary" seriously when there are errors is in just about every scene. Ancient Egypt existed for three and a half millennia, and the Ptolemaic period of Greek control and its involvement in Roman policies, especially the Roman civil wars is a very specific period. For example no Egyptian was spoken at the court, Greek was spoken.
But getting costumes wrong, getting basic timelines of battles (like Actium) wrong, placing Cleopatra at events we know she was not present at, mixing up things done by Anthony with those done by Octavian and an unending series of errors just makes this impossible to watch. It is clear no experts, or even anyone with a basic knowledge of the history of the time and place was involved, or if they were, their advise was inverted.
The dialogue is also laughably childish s is the acting.
And this is supposedly something supposed to "represent" black history by skipping over the entire history of the indigenous Nile Valley civilization. Black people who support this will be looking like idiots for a long time by allowing themselves to be used to look like clowns.
They had no interest and desire to stand behind a black Queen Tiye or Nefertiti but have no problem putting it all on the line for a black Cleopatra. What kind of retards are these people?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: this is supposedly something supposed to "represent" black history by skipping over the entire history of the indigenous Nile Valley civilization.
Jada is doing a series. She is only up to the second Queen So unless you know for a fact she will not being doing any other Queen of Egypt you cannot argue something is being skipped over
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Somehow I think there would not be so much outrage at this documentary series had they speculated Cleopatra was, say, part Hebrew or Mesopotamian. Those aren't really more justified than portrayed her as mixed with Egyptian or other African ancestry, are they?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video which criticizes Netflix Cleopatra and the eventual ideology behind it. The video include statements of Dr Zahi Hawass
quote: Netflix had a film made by the wife of Will Smith. She had... She is the one that has an agenda. She is the one that she want to proove that ancient Egypt were black but this is not true Because, look at Egypt. Egypt was controlled and ruled on dynasty 25. mean at the end of the Egyptian history. By Kush kingdom. The black kingdom. One dynasty. In that time they made pyramids. And the pyramids are like hills. There is no way to compere the pyramids of Meroe to the pyramids of Egypt, means that this dynasty did not make this civilzation of ancient Egypt. This dynasty has nothing to do with ancient Egypt.
At minimum when looking at Egyptian art, one can say some of the kings of Egypt prior to the 25th including some throughout the Old kingdom have stereotypic African features and this reddish brown color is very common rather than Zahi Hawass' lighter color. This is not to say it's not possible for him to have some ancient Egyptian ancestry (or none, we don't know) And this is not to some random dark skinned Egyptian living today does or does not have ancient Egyptian ancestry. This cannot be known just by looking
But Zahi Hawass is not an honest man if he does not acknowledge a significant amount of African features in much of Egyptian art and many ambiguous also. There is a wide variety of features depicted in the art if one is being honest and clearly he is not. Look the above Amenhotep III sculptures. Does Zahi Hawass resemble them? Then answer is no
And he says:
quote: The theory that made everyone to think that ancient Egypt was black civilization. It came from Cheikh Anta Diop from Senegal. He announced it because he saw a statue of Ramesses II black, a statue of Tutankhamun black. And he made a statement That the ancient Egyptian were black. Unesco in 1970 made a conference to discuss that, and they said: "We have no evidence to proof that the Egyptians were black."
This man is a hypocrite if we look at his teams' 2012 DNA analysis of two of the Ramesside mummies. He pretends this never happened>
and not impressive even in an intellectual level or as scholar, yet you keep posting about him like he's the ultimate authority
And he makes no claims as to being Greek, yet goes out of his way to keep commenting on this.
If the Greeks don't like Adele James as Cleopatra let them do their own documentary. How is this an Egyptian problem?
^ If the Egyptians do some new movie, then depict actual Egyptians and cast people of this color.
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Well, one can probably say that he has more practical experience of Egyptian archaeology than anyone here on ES, and more than most American or European debaters. Then maybe he is not right in everything he says, that can be discussed, but he still has been one of the leading voices in Egypt regarding Egyptian archaeology and Egyptian heritage, during many years.
I think both he and several other Egyptians are irritated over foreigners trying to define Egyptian identity, telling them they are only Arab invaders of Egypt without any real ties to the ancient Egyptians.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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I think both he and several other Egyptians are irritated over foreigners trying to define Egyptian identity, telling them they are only Arab invaders of Egypt without any real ties to the ancient Egyptians.
It's not Egyptian identity, it's Greek identity!!!
This is ridiculous
And in realty they are in fact part Arab
(although I don't condone people calling them "fake" and then pretending they who say this are "real")
Zahi Hawass represents government affiliated nationalism and is his place in this issue is highly political
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Brits think Romans in some way are a part of their history and even identity, just as Egyptians can see Greeks as a part of Egyptian history and even identity. In Germany older history in older times where divided in "Römergeschichte" and "Germanengeschichte" (Roman history and Germanic history), and many Germans are highly interested in Roman sites and museums showing Roman history in what is now Germany. So different peoples who lived in an area can be incorporated in a national identity.
Egyptians of today have a heritage of ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks and all sorts of people, they are all a part of Egyptian history. And you are right, history and politics are intertwined in Egypt, as it is in Europe, America, China and many other places. Just as Americans, or Chinese or Brits or Swedes, Egyptians do not like foreigners telling them about their history or trying to define who is a real Egyptian or not, or who they descend from or not.
They want the right to self define their history. It should be an inner debate in Egypt, but now all kinds of people from everywhere chime in on the debate.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Notice how Hawass makes sure to say "She is the one that she want to prove that ancient Egypt were black but this is not true"
He is not complaining that Americans are playing Egyptians he's specifying and validating the American racial term "black" and saying they were not black
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To be honest, Egyptians have also complained over the choices of both Elisabeth Taylor and Gal Gadot as Cleopatra. But in their cases it was more a question of Elisabeth Taylor supporting Israel, and Gal Gadot being an Israelite.
Blackness has become some kind of buzz word and its use has spread everywhere. For some it has positive connotations for others negative.
Maybe one day there will be films about different parts of Egyptian history where Egyptians are played by Egyptians of different shades, Greeks by Greeks and Romans by Italians. Some Egyptians noticed the lack of Egyptians among the cast in Cleopatra (and there seem not have been many Greeks either).
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The fundamental problem with this is that they used black people to set the precedent that a Netflix documentary on the ancient Nile valley can use "political" or "social justice" reasons as the basis for how ancient persons are portrayed. And in so doing, they established that it is justifiable for anybody who does a documentary to do the same thing. Meaning it is perfectly fine to ignore facts and evidence to pursue a purely feel good narrative with no basis in reality. So down the road, if Netflix or another studio does something similar on an indigenous Nile Valley dynasty, they will be justified making them white, Arab, Asian and anything but black African. It makes sense for the whites at Netflix to do something like this because almost all of the so-called documentaries produced by History Channel and other American media outlets have always done this. But now they are using and manipulating black people to try and make it seem legit, when it isn't legit and isnt necessary when talking about African history. They are just giving ammunition to the enemies of black people and black history and the so called white liberals are not on your side. It is all the more obvious that they are pushing an anti-black agenda when they skipped over thousands of years of black dynasties to do a documentary on the Greek dynasty as if anybody with half a brain would start any discussion of the black history of the Nile Valley with the Greeks. To me it is them saying that the Nile Valley was "multicultural" but not African, which means those native dynasties weren't African either.
Notice also that Adele James in her interviews list Cleopatra as the "Most iconic" person she could portray on screen. No mention of any actual black historical Queens or figures from history. So what is she representing? Because she isn't representing black people or culture. And this again goes to my point about these Afro British actors who seem to be more interested in portraying white characters or historical figures than actually representing actual black history and culture. Not that black American actors are much better, because the root of this is the fact that nobody is making black and African stories or history which would require black and African actors. So if all you have is mostly white shows and productions the only roles you will get are those changed from white characters. And Hollywood has been pushing this hard over the last few years.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: these Afro British actors who seem to be more interested in portraying white characters or historical figures than actually representing actual black history and culture.
That might be true but at the same time they could have the mentality that "we are Black actors and we have the right to portray anybody we want to, even people who are not black and we will even test that to show we can't be stopped, we will do want we want"
In addition this is a series on Queens of Africa and Jada Pinkett Smith is only up to two so far. Jada and Neflix produced Queen Njinga and you keep ignoring it, so you are not supporting what you proport to want them to do. You won't even mention Jada Pinkett Smith because you think she is just a hapless child being told what to do She may do another Queen of Egypt and it is highly unlikely there will be another Queen of Africa with the type of ancestry Cleopatra had, the next ones are likely to all be thoroughly African This is Jada's project, not a mysterious "they" She screwed up this time (although does get some trolling points) but the game is not over
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Roman Wall painting from the House of Giuseppe II, Pompeii, 1st century AD, death of Sophonisba, but more likely Cleopatra VII of Egypt consuming poison.
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I think that is sophonisba, because the man behind her is NOT Cleopatra's son Ceasarion by Julius Cesar.
Cesarion if Cleopatra was 100% greek and Julius was white HE should be white.
The man behind sophonisba was Massanisa her husband
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen Cleopatra What It Is: Racism BY SAGAL MOHAMMED
quote:Cleopatra’s race has long been regarded as ambiguous by scholars and historians. What we do know is that her father, Ptolemy XII, was of Macedonian-Greek descent, a member of the family that conquered Egypt more than 200 years before Cleopatra’s birth in 69 BC. Her mother’s identity, on the other hand, is unknown – although she may well have been Egyptian – which is where things get a little more complex. “Cleopatra ruled in Egypt long before the Arab settlement in North Africa,” said Dr Sally Ann Ashton, a research scientist and author of Cleopatra and Egypt, who appears in the documentary. “If the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African, and this should be reflected in contemporary representations of Cleopatra.”
To be clear, the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman with no Macedonian-Greek heritage at all, although the media storm around it might make you assume otherwise. Rather, its creators, including scholar Shelley Haley, professor of classics and African studies at Hamilton College, have asked us to imagine her as a woman of mixed heritage, hence the casting of a biracial actress. “Her ethnicity is not the focus of Queen Cleopatra, but we did intentionally decide to depict her of mixed ethnicity to reflect theories about Cleopatra’s possible Egyptian ancestry and the multicultural nature of ancient Egypt,” a statement from Netflix reads.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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And assuming in the case of Cleopatra that it is only ambiguous due to missing evidence. That if there was more genealogical record available or human remains that could be analyzed, that her "race" could be definitively established and an article could be written "New Test Results Confirm Cleopatra's Race"
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen Cleopatra What It Is: Racism BY SAGAL MOHAMMED
quote:Cleopatra’s race has long been regarded as ambiguous by scholars and historians. What we do know is that her father, Ptolemy XII, was of Macedonian-Greek descent, a member of the family that conquered Egypt more than 200 years before Cleopatra’s birth in 69 BC. Her mother’s identity, on the other hand, is unknown – although she may well have been Egyptian – which is where things get a little more complex. “Cleopatra ruled in Egypt long before the Arab settlement in North Africa,” said Dr Sally Ann Ashton, a research scientist and author of Cleopatra and Egypt, who appears in the documentary. “If the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African, and this should be reflected in contemporary representations of Cleopatra.”
To be clear, the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman with no Macedonian-Greek heritage at all, although the media storm around it might make you assume otherwise. Rather, its creators, including scholar Shelley Haley, professor of classics and African studies at Hamilton College, have asked us to imagine her as a woman of mixed heritage, hence the casting of a biracial actress. “Her ethnicity is not the focus of Queen Cleopatra, but we did intentionally decide to depict her of mixed ethnicity to reflect theories about Cleopatra’s possible Egyptian ancestry and the multicultural nature of ancient Egypt,” a statement from Netflix reads.
So the whole underlying argument of this series is that her mother was "Egyptian" which does not mean black African, because her mother herself could have been mixed. To argue that this one mystery woman somehow was herself super dark enough to justify the portrayal of a dark skinned Cleopatra is beyond stretching the facts. After 300 years of Greek occupation much of Egypt at that time was mixed, especially in Alexandria. So they are trying to have it both ways with this argument where Cleopatra was mixed and "black" but her mother was just "native" and not herself mixed. And everybody that criticizes this is not white because again, they skipped all the native dynasties of the NIle Valley to focus on a Greek dynasty as their defense of black people in Egypt, which is dumb as hell. It is a controversy they created for themselves by deciding to do this based on so little actual proof and going out on a limb while ignoring much more well supported actual black dynasties in earlier eras (not just the 25th). And to be honest they admitted that they are embellishing the facts for political reasons which again is retarded as the Nile is in Africa and you don't need to embellish facts to establish black people in the history of he Nile Valley.
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Mary Lefkowitz describes an incident which involves Yosef A. A. Ben-Jochannan in her book History Lesson from 2008
quote: In another incident described in her book, Yosef A. A. Ben-Jochannan, the author of Africa: The Mother of Western Civilization, gave the Martin Luther King lecture at Wellesley in 1993. Lefkowitz attended this lecture with her husband, Sir Hugh Lloyd-Jones. In that lecture, Ben-Jochannan stated that Aristotle stole his philosophy from the Library of Alexandria, Egypt. During the question and answer session following the lecture, Lefkowitz asked Ben-Jochannan, "How would that have been possible, when the library was not built until after his death?" Ben-Jochannan replied that the dates were uncertain. Sir Hugh responded, "Rubbish!" Lefkowitz writes that Ben-Jochannan proceeded to tell those present that "they could and should believe what black instructors told them" and "that although they might think that Jews were all 'hook-nosed and sallow faced,' there were other Jews who looked like himself
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Was Cleopatra Black? Gal Gadot's Cleopatra Film Controversy | Dr. Rebecca Futo Kennedy Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages In this episode Dr. Rebecca Futo Kennedy takes us into another intense history debate and that is the question of "Was Cleopatra Black?" In light of the upcoming movie and controversy surrounding Gal Gadot playing Cleopatra I felt like this was an excellent time to use this episode. What was her ethnicity? Why is it controversial? Was she Macedonian? Are Macedonians even Greek? Was there an African in the Ptolemy family tree? Is this argument merely people attempting to project their modern narratives and politics on the past? Why does it even matter? Can we even answer the question? In this talk Dr. Kennedy explains that until we stop attempting to remove black Africans from Egyptian history and until we stop using the modern and inaccurate term Sub-Saharan in our dialogue involving ancient Africa and Egypt it doesn't matter. Again, in many ways this talk merely shows that this debate revolves more around modern politics and narratives rather than Cleopatra herself, the Ptolemies and how the ancient Egyptians saw them or themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DKyEUB8eXEPosts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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Seems everyone discusses Cleopatra these days. And maybe we are to expect further documentaries and movies.
From an Egyptian standpoint the main problem with Gal Gadot was not so much her skin color but the fact she is an Israeli with a background in the military. She also, according to the Egyptians, made some statements about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict they did not like.
quote: During the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, Gadot called for peace between the two territories in a statement that drew backlash for expressing support for Israel and referring to the Palestinians as her "neighbours".
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Do you have a source saying that production was stopped on Cleopatra that was to be directed by Kari Skogland with Gal Godot rumored to be replaced by Zendaya ?
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Seems it is not cancelled but belated. We will see if it ever materialize, and who will play the leading role. Seems Gal gadot left the project though
quote: The Euphoria actress will be reunited with Villeneuve thanks to Gal Gadot's departure from the film. That's right, Zendaya was not the first choice for the role. Instead, the former Wonder Woman is the one who was to star in the life of Cleopatra. It is not yet known who else will join her, but it is expected to be a cast of popular actors.
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An article that touches upon the Egyptian reactions on Netflix Cleopatra
quote: Adele James vs. Gal Gadot and Zendaya: the difference in the reaction of Egyptians
However, the controversy surrounding the casting of Adele James as Cleopatra raises some important questions about racism and discrimination in the entertainment industry. Why are Egyptians more offended by a black actress playing Cleopatra than an Israeli soldier or a non-Egyptian black actress like Zendaya?
Why is there so much outrage over the casting of Adele James but relatively little over other similar, or plain offensive like Gadot’s, casting decisions?
The answer to these questions lies in the complex history of race relations in Egypt and the broader Middle East. Egypt has a long history of racial and ethnic diversity, with influences from Africa, the Middle East, and Europe.
However, despite this diversity, there is still a strong sense of nationalism in Egypt, with many people seeing themselves as primarily Egyptian rather than African or Arab.
Therefore, the casting of a black actress as many Egyptians see Cleopatra as a threat to their national identity and cultural heritage.
Many people feel that by casting a black actress as Cleopatra, Netflix is trying to rewrite history and erase the Macedonian-Greek heritage of one of Egypt’s most important historical figures. This perception is reinforced by the fact that Cleopatra is often seen as a symbol of Egyptian greatness and power, and many people feel that this symbol is being taken away from them by the casting of a black actress.
However, it is important to recognize that this sense of nationalism has often been used to exclude and discriminate against minorities in Egypt, including black Egyptians and other people of African descent. While the situation has improved in recent years, there is still a lot of discrimination against black people in Egypt, and many people still hold racist beliefs and attitudes.
And this is exactly why less people were upset over Gal Gadot’s casting. Ironically, Egyptians did not object to Gal Gadot’s casting as Cleopatra as much as they did to Adele James. Three years ago, plans for a new movie about the queen starring Israeli actress Gal Gadot caused a minor backlash, mostly on social media. Gadot stepped down from the film, and it was rumored that Zendaya would replace her. This was not met with as much controversy, possibly because Zendaya looks “less black” than Adele.
Ultimately, the debate over Adele James’ casting as Cleopatra highlights the ongoing struggles for representation and equality in the entertainment industry. It also underscores the need for greater education and understanding about history and culture, as well as the importance of engaging in respectful and productive dialogue around complex and sensitive issues. As we continue to grapple with these questions, it is important to remember that there is no single right answer, and that progress can only be made through open and honest communication and collaboration.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems it is not cancelled but belated. We will see if it ever materialize, and who will play the leading role. Seems Gal gadot left the project though
quote: The Euphoria actress will be reunited with Villeneuve thanks to Gal Gadot's departure from the film. That's right, Zendaya was not the first choice for the role. Instead, the former Wonder Woman is the one who was to star in the life of Cleopatra. It is not yet known who else will join her, but it is expected to be a cast of popular actors.
I would guess that the casting of Zendaya, father – African-American mother – German, Irish, English, Scottish
would cause the same controversy as the Adele James version
and that they knew it would controversial but not this controversial I don't see it happening any time soon
I wonder what would have happened if Neflix released the exact same Queen Cleopatra series with Adele James and simply left out "Documentary" or "Docu-Drama"
Here is a current Netflix series on Pablo Escobar They classify it as a Drama
However they would also have to make it (Cleopatra) all dramatized and leave out the experts clips and some of the narration to not have that documentary aspect
______________________________________________
Queen Cleopatra True Story: 5 Things Netflix's Controversial Show Leaves Out BY HENRY LADD
Netflix's controversial docu-series Queen Cleopatra leaves out five critical aspects of the real history of Cleopatra’s reign in ancient Egypt.
Cleopatra Was Not Very Impactful In The Broader History Of Egypt
Cleopatra's Motivations Are Romanticized
Cleopatra Did Not Plan Troop Movements In War
Cleopatra Did Not Participate In Swordplay
Cleopatra Ruthlessly Orchestrated The Deaths Of Her Siblings
Seems much to do about nothing, It seems that the Arabs inside Egypt are fully game to claim that they are Ancient Egyptians when the statues show black people.
I am seeing from a distance that this is a coverup of what they think the Ancient Egyptians look like. They keep talking about stay inside west african history actually not realizing the Ancient Egypt is part of African story
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I wonder why the cleopatra arguement is so much an attack on Blackness when you can clearly that the statues show Blackness
Why do I feel that the statues were doctored by the Modern Egyptians and seemed to of tried to crush his face?
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In the documentary they talk about Cleopatra maybe being mixed with Egyptian. If one would follow that line of thought maybe it would have been better with an actress like Athena Karkanis in the leading role. She is of both Greek and Egyptian descent. And she has actually been apart of another Netflix drama. But maybe such choice would have been too uncontroversial, and not in line with the filmmakers political intentions.
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Speaking of cleopatra theres paintings of Greeks with reddish Brown skin that has been over looked:
This is why We don't know what greeks were , yet theres proof of Ancient Greeks being Reddish brown:
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The Greeks knew about Black Africans and depicted them now and then. But the majority of Greek art do not depict Africans. Go to Greece and visit a couple of museums there, then you can see for yourself (I did).
Here is a video with some thoughts about the idea of Black Greeks
And when it concerns Minoan and Mycenaean art, there were also certain color codes with men mostly depicted darker than women. Cretans and other Greeks can also be rather brown, especially if they are tanned. Just compare the Minoan fisherman from Akrotiri with a Cretan fisherman of today. They are not Black Africans, but still rather brown.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In the documentary they talk about Cleopatra maybe being mixed with Egyptian. If one would follow that line of thought maybe it would have been better with an actress like Athena Karkanis in the leading role. She is of both Greek and Egyptian descent. And she has actually been apart of another Netflix drama. But maybe such choice would have been too uncontroversial, and not in line with the filmmakers political intentions.
she would been good casting but she looks like any average african american mixed person. So the question you should ask is if the ancient indigenous population was not black africans then how a half egyptian half greek person looks like regular AA mulattos? Which reminds me of a reference from JA Rodgers nature knows no color line
quote:Page 57
Many American Negroes are indistinguishable from Arabs. The New York Times (Feb. 2, 1045) reports of the meeting between President Roosevelt and King Ibn Saud. “It was a matter of considerable astonishment of the King’s servants to discover American Negro cooks and messboys and it was more than difficult to persuade them that these were not also Arabs. The matter was never entirely cleared up.”
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Reconstruction of Cleopatra compared with Athena Karkanis, Nora Elzeiny and Adele James
That is not a reconstruction.
Arisinoe's remains have been found and said to have mixed negro egyptian european ancestry
New Image Reveals The 'True Cleopatra' December 18, 20085:30 PM ET By
Geoffrey Gardner
quote:Researchers have unveiled a new composite image which they say more accurately portrays the ancient seductress.
quote: The computer-enhanced image takes into account her geography, family history, and various items bearing her likeness. Daily Mail has more:
Pieced together from images on ancient artifacts, including a ring dating from Cleopatra's reign 2,000 years ago, it is the culmination of more than a year of painstaking research.
The result is a beautiful young woman of mixed ethnicity - very different to the porcelain-skinned Westernised version portrayed by Elizabeth Taylor in the 1961 movie Cleopatra.
Dr Ashton, of Cambridge University, said the images, to be broadcast as part of a Five documentary on Cleopatra, reflect the monarch's Greek heritage as well as her Egyptian upbringing.
"She probably wasn't just completely European. You've got to remember that her family had actually lived in Egypt for 300 years by the time she came to power."
So, if Hollywood were to remake Cleopatra with this mixed-race image in mind, who would you like to see play the title role?
quote:This coin was minted during Antony and Cleopatra’s alliance. By pairing their faces on coinage, the rulers advertised their powerful partnership, which was so strong that Cleopatra’s profile is an exact copy of Antony’s portrait. Cleopatra’s image appears on the front of the coin, which identifies her as the more important of the two rulers. A crown circling her carefully braided hair symbolizes her status as a queen.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Cleopatra was a Greek Queen ruling a Greek colony in Africa. She was not an "African Queen" ruling an African country. Whether or not she was mixed doesn't change that. Everything she did was to preserver her power as a Greek Queen as the last of the Greek colonies for the Mediterranean. She was not trying to "protect Africa" or any other such nonsense. Some people are just going way to far with this nonsense in promoting Hellenistic Greek culture and identity as African. Cleopatra in no way shape or form belongs along side Nzinga, Tiye, Ahmose-Nefertari, the Candakes or any other truly African Queens in history.
There are no physical remains for Cleopatra so any idea of what she looked like is purely guess work. And again, what does it matter? She was not an African Queen representing any kind of African Kingdom or Culture.
Same goes for her sister:
quote: In the 1990s an octagonal monument situated in the centre of Ephesus was hypothesized by Hilke Thur of the Austrian Academy of Sciences to be the tomb of Arsinoe.[16] Although no inscription remains on the tomb, it was dated to between 50 and 20 BC. In 1926 the skeleton of a female estimated to be between the ages of 15 and 18 years at the time of her death was found in the burial chamber.[24][4] Thür's identification of the skeleton was based on the shape of the tomb, which was octagonal, like the second tier of the Lighthouse of Alexandria, the carbon dating of the bones (between 200 and 20 BC), the gender of the skeleton, and the age of the child at death.[25][26] It was also claimed that the tomb boasts Egyptian motifs, such as "papyri-bundle" columns.[16]
A DNA test was also attempted to determine the identity of the child. However, it was impossible to get an accurate reading since the bones had been handled too many times,[27] and the skull had been lost in Germany during World War II. Hilke Thur examined the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull,[28][29] which was reconstructed using computer technology by forensic anthropologist Caroline Wilkinson to show what the woman may have looked like.[30] Thür alleged that it shows signs of African ancestry mixed with classical Grecian features[16] – despite the fact that Boas, Gravlee, Bernard and Leonard, and others have demonstrated that skull measurements are not a reliable indicator of race,[31] and the measurements were jotted down in 1920 before modern forensic science took hold.[30] Furthermore, Arsinoe and Cleopatra, shared the same father (Ptolemy XII Auletes) but may have had different mothers,[32] with Thür claiming the alleged African ancestry came from the skeleton's mother.
Mary Beard wrote a dissenting essay criticizing the findings, pointing out that, first, there is no surviving name on the tomb and that the claim the tomb is alleged to invoke the shape of the Pharos Lighthouse "doesn't add up"; second, the skull doesn't survive intact and the age of the skeleton is too young to be Arsinoe's (the bones said to be that of a 15-18 year old, with Arsinoe being around her mid twenties at her death); and third, since Cleopatra and Arsinoe were not known to have the same mother, "the ethnic argument goes largely out of the window."[4] Furthermore, craniometry as used by Thür to determine race is based in scientific racism that is now generally considered a pseudoscience that supported exploitation of groups of people to perpetuate racial oppression and distorted future views of the biological basis of race.[33]
A writer from The Times described the identification of the skeleton as "a triumph of conjecture over certainty".[34] If the monument is the tomb of Arsinoe, she would be the only member of the Ptolemaic dynasty whose remains have been recovered.[35] It has never been definitively proven the skeleton is that of Arsinoë IV.
It doesn't make any sense to be grasping at straws to establish an African identity for these Greek people when there are plenty of African Queens long before them to base real history on that is on a much more solid foundation.
I find it really suspect that Netflix is going out of their way to promote this Queen but not doing the same for Queens like Tiye, Ahmose Nefertari, Nodjmet and so forth, that we have ACTUAL PROOF were black Africans.
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In the documentary they talk about Cleopatra maybe being mixed with Egyptian. If one would follow that line of thought maybe it would have been better with an actress like Athena Karkanis in the leading role. She is of both Greek and Egyptian descent. And she has actually been apart of another Netflix drama. But maybe such choice would have been too uncontroversial, and not in line with the filmmakers political intentions.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Cleopatra is a 1917 American silent historical drama film based on H. Rider Haggard's 1889 novel Cleopatra, the 1890 play Cleopatre by Émile Moreau and Victorien Sardou, and the play Antony and Cleopatra by William Shakespeare.[1] The film starred Theda Bara in the title role, Fritz Leiber Sr. as Julius Caesar, and Thurston Hall as Mark Antony.
The film is now considered partially lost, as only small parts of the film remain.
Theda Bara (/ˈθiːdə ˈbærə/ THEE-də BARE-ə;[1] born Theodosia Burr Goodman; July 29, 1885 – April 7, 1955) was an American silent film and stage actress.[2]
Bara was one of the more popular actresses of the silent era and one of cinema's early sex symbols. Her femme fatale roles earned her the nickname "The Vamp" (short for vampire, here meaning a seductive woman),[a] later fueling the rising popularity in "vamp" roles based in exoticism and sexual domination.[5] The studios promoted a fictitious persona for Bara as an Egyptian-born woman interested in the occult.
Bara was born Theodosia Burr Goodman on July 29, 1885 in the Avondale section of Cincinnati, Ohio.[2] She was named after the daughter of U.S. Vice President Aaron Burr.[6] Her father was Bernard Goodman (1853–1936), a Jewish tailor from Poland. Her mother, Pauline Louise Françoise (née de Coppett; 1861–1957), was born in Switzerland.
2008 BOOK BY SALLY ANN ASHTON Amazon description: This beautifully illustrated new biography of Cleopatra draws on literary, archaeological, and art historical evidence to paint an intimate and compelling portrait of the most famous Queen of Egypt.
-Deconstructs the image of Cleopatra to uncover the complex historical figure behind the myth -Examines Greek, Roman, and Egyptian representations of Cleopatra -Considers how she was viewed by her contemporaries and how she presented herself -Incorporates the author's recent field work at a temple of Cleopatra in Alexandria -Beautifully illustrated with over 40 images
Sally-Ann Ashton Sally-Ann Ashton is Senior Assistant Keeper in the Department of Antiquities at the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge, where she looks after material from Ancient Egypt and Sudan. She studied Ancient Greek at the University of Manchester, and then Classical Archaeology at King’s College London, where she completed her PhD on Egyptian royal sculpture in 1999.
Since 2003 Sally-Ann has worked in a number of different prisons, teaching Black History. In 2008 she obtained an MPhil in Criminological Research from the University of Cambridge, studying the impact of accessing African and Caribbean cultural heritage in a prison environment.
Prior to working in Cambridge Sally-Ann worked at the British Museum and The Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology in London and has curated a number of special exhibitions: Cleopatra of Egypt: from history to myth (Rome, London and Chicago 2000-2001); Roman Egyptomania (Cambridge 2004), and Triumph Protection and Dreams: African headrests in context (Cambridge 2011). She has undertaken archaeological/anthropological fieldwork in Greece, Italy, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, and Jamaica.
Sally-Ann has published widely on subjects relating to identity, cross-cultural exchange and African-centred approaches to Ancient Egypt. She is currently writing two books: Black history, identity and culture in English Prisons, and Origins of the Afro Comb. Both will be published in 2013.
The idea that Cleopatra was black has been floating around in the Black community since at least 1918 when George Wells Parker wrote about it in Children of the Sun. It became more wide spread in the first volume of JA Rogers' Worlds' Great Men of Color, first published in 1947 but later re-published in the 70s with and introduction and commentary by John Henrik Clarke
But a picture speaks a thousand words. Sally Ann Ashton came out with a book in April 2008 (above) with a 1917 film image of a silent movie about Cleopatra In the book there many photos of art and artifacts representing different versions of Cleopatra which she comments on and argues Cleopatra considered herself to be an Egyptian
but this computer image she had made of Cleopatra which she had made later in the same year as the book, 2008 made a splash in the media, Cleopatra depicted with dark skin and cornrows. This image is one of the precursors to this new series on Netflix and Sally Ann Ashton also appears in the film in some of the commentary parts
Here is a 2020 thread in Egyptsearch where Egyptserach member and author Asar Imhotep interviews Ashton in a video posted to youtube:
at time 26:40 they discuss her book on Cleopatra (he name is mentioned 31 times in the video)
Sally-Ann Ashton, 28:05
quote: Ashton:
Cleopatra's family had been in Egypt for about 270 years the time she came on the throne she's descended from a Macedonian Greek family but we also know that her we don't know the identity of her grandmother so her father was illegitimate. We know that he was actually called a bastard in Greek not us and so it wasn't actually me who suggested this it was actually somebody else a Papyrologist suggested that, you know Cleopatra's grandmother, you know, could have been Egyptian and so if she's Egyptian then that means that Cleopatra it's partly Egyptian and I think it's really important I mean certainly I hadn't realized it was gonna be such a contentious kind of issue actually you know people seem to respond to this very badly but there's been other research elsewhere it was believed that the skeleton of Cleopatra's sister asked enemy and was also found in Turkey and that actually she was a mixed heritage mixed African in European heritage which actually ties in with the idea that so was was Cleopatra the final Cleopatra that one that we can clear country the seventh and I think I was very surprised that's just how strongly some people responded and reacted to that suggestion
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