posted
Is there any verification on the paternal lineages from the Pastoral Neolithic being African? What I mean is that there's has been a trend to omit the African locality of lineages in African samples, particularly a deemphasis on its origins. With the Pastoral Neolithic, I've seen a of couple people online who postulated that their paternal E lineages were Eurasian sex biased, particularly related to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic, whereas only their maternal lineages were African. I just want to know what evidence provides doubts about this.
posted
I don't fully understand what's being asked for here. Is there data showing M293 in PPN individuals outside of Africa yet? The only non-African Uniparentals any of them carry are mitochondrial. K1a, HV and T2. Also, non of the local Levantine populations make good academic fits for the west-Eurasian related ancestry in the region. The earliest and most Eurasian sample carried E2 paternal and K1a maternal haplogroups.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I don't fully understand what's being asked for here. Is there data showing M293 in PPN individuals outside of Africa yet? The only non-African Uniparentals any of them carry are mitochondrial. K1a, HV and T2. Also, non of the local Levantine populations make good academic fits for the west-Eurasian related ancestry in the region. The earliest and most Eurasian sample carried E2 paternal and K1a maternal haplogroups.
Sorry if I'm not being clear. My question revolves around the authentication of the Pastoral Neolithic paternal E lineages being connected to their African ancestry as opposed to their "Eurasian" ancestry, in which case Neolithic Levantine ancestry is a proxy for. I ask this because I've seen many people from online cast doubt these E lineages could be related to the Pastoral Neolithic's "Nilotic" ancestry, given that the modern homogenous groups represented by such ancestry like the Dinka, tend to be dominant in mostly non-E paternal lineages. This contrasts to the Natufians and Neolithic Levantines who did harbored E lineages, in which they see as the most plausible source for the Pastoral Neolithic's paternal lineages. I've tried to find some verification on the Pastoral Neolithic's paternal lineages being related to their autosomal African ancestry, but many reports on the Pastoral Neolithic are quiet about this.
Posts: 331 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I don't fully understand what's being asked for here. Is there data showing M293 in PPN individuals outside of Africa yet? The only non-African Uniparentals any of them carry are mitochondrial. K1a, HV and T2. Also, non of the local Levantine populations make good academic fits for the west-Eurasian related ancestry in the region. The earliest and most Eurasian sample carried E2 paternal and K1a maternal haplogroups.
Sorry if I'm not being clear. My question revolves around the authentication of the Pastoral Neolithic paternal E lineages being connected to their African ancestry as opposed to their "Eurasian" ancestry, in which case Neolithic Levantine ancestry is a proxy for. I ask this because I've seen many people from online cast doubt these E lineages could be related to the Pastoral Neolithic's "Nilotic" ancestry, given that the modern homogenous groups represented by such ancestry like the Dinka, tend to be dominant in mostly non-E paternal lineages. This contrasts to the Natufians and Neolithic Levantines who did harbored E lineages, in which they see as the most plausible source for the Pastoral Neolithic's paternal lineages. I've tried to find some verification on the Pastoral Neolithic's paternal lineages being related to their autosomal African ancestry, but many reports on the Pastoral Neolithic are quiet about this.
There's a lot to unpack here.
First thing to note is that the pastoral Neolithic's African ancestry is not solely nilotic, but however East African Hunter-gatherer (Mota - Basal African.) With some Nilotic related ancestry possibly from North east Africa. If by "nilotic" you're solely referring to cultural links such as linguistic affiliation <Nilo-Saharan>, then I think whosoever is making the argument for sex biased determination of geneflow is putting the cart before the horse.
Secondly we have a profile of both uni-parentals containing African specific lineages and some lineages not even represented well outside of Africa, like the their instances of A, B, and E2a, paternally.
Thirdly I want to point out, that if the paper introducing them doesn't mention it, then it's likely insignificant, as sex biased geneflow is extremely popular in any study done on a novel collection of Africans. --However, nonetheless, the argument can be made that if it was significant, it'll be on the female side, as the only putative non African lineages are female.
m293 which dominates among PN samples, would have to be the "Levantine marker" if there is such a thing in this case. It's the only Paternal marker not found in samples which do not have any West_Eurasian-like ancestry. The debate will have to start at the origin of that haplogroup. The other paternal haplogroups including V22 are found in non-admixed foragers. The same cannot be said about the diverse maternal Haplogroup profile to which most of the samples are L3 and there's a presence of K1a, T2 and HV.
So how I see it. The argument needs to be refined. If you want to link m293 with "nilotic" ancestry you're likely going to have to start with North east Africa and the horn and not with these pastoral Neolithic samples. I also think it's meaningless to do so because the west Eurasian-related ancestry is likely partially African to begin with. Regardless, in the case where there is female biased geneflow from outside of Africa (as shown in Sudan Kulubnarti sample) at the origin of distribution. A later expansion from that site will associate the non African ancestry with the dominant haplogroups male or female.
So for instance if Non African females met African males in Eritrea (for example) and the males from Eritrea expanded into Tanzania, then the non-African Ancestry in Tanzania is due to the expansion on Eritrean males.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
posted
Alright fair. Btw, by "Nilotic", I mean "Nilotic-like" or related ancestry that is misidentified as such and not solely connected to Nilo-Saharan speakers. It's similar to how people refer to Eurasian ancestry in Horners as "Natufian-like". What do you say to people who invoke that the oldest E1b1b lineages found are in NW Africa and the Levant?
Posts: 331 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Alright fair. Btw, by "Nilotic", I mean "Nilotic-like" or related ancestry that is misidentified as such and not solely connected to Nilo-Saharan speakers. It's similar to how people refer to Eurasian ancestry in Horners as "Natufian-like". What do you say to people who invoke that the oldest E1b1b lineages found are in NW Africa and the Levant?
What I would say to anyone who states that the eldest E1b1b carriers as well as the eldest E carriers to sequenced to date are NW African and Near eastern is that they're 100% correct.
But we have decent enough evidence that both these groups were new recipients of the marker. They got it from a region between them which is somewhere in Africa. Also considering all the leaked info an revelation of non E1b1b lineages pouring into Africa during the bronze age I'd think some people would be wise enough as to keep quiet given the paucity of suspected lineages being attached to confirmed Non-African Ancestry.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic