posted
I would be interested in hearing from non-egyptian women who have or used to have Orfi 'marriages' with egyptian men. In particular, did you know that it was not legal when you did it. If so what were your reasons for choosing this rather than a legal marriage. Did your man explain that it wasnt legal when he proposed this 'marriage' or was it not discussed. Did he allow you to believe that it was a genuine commitment both legally and in every other way. If you believed it to be legal at the time, how did you find out that it wasnt and how long did it take you to find out and what were your thoughts/feelings when you did find out. I would also like to hear from non-egyptian women who are legally married to egyptians. How did you find out about legal marriage, was it from your man, did he propose this or did you do your own research and let him know that you knew all about it. I would like to conduct a poll of orfi and legal marriages and surrounding issues. I would also be interested in the opinions of egyptian men (or anyone else for that matter) on this issue. If anyone would like to write to me in confidence my email address is asseliuk@yahoo.co.uk.
Posts: 92 | From: Britain | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Lol Jacqueline, I just rambled on... on the other thread! You will have to read my reply there!!I can however, give you all the horror stories I know
posted
hi there, this was so interesting,but i already knew it was not legal to marry in another country in lawyers office, common sence i guess, i mean after all the paper work you have to do just to visit come on, how would thta be legal, just walk in and puff your married be serious,i have a friend there in egypt as well very sweet name, when he asked me to marry him i said to him and just where do non-egyptain and egyptains get married and he told me that we could get married in cario at that place you mention and also we could go to my embassy to make sure everything was legal, maybe i found one that is for real , what do you think, anyway i can't wait to go there and really get to meet his family and spend time in such a beautiful counrty , am not sure when exactly this is all going to happen, but am glad i would have never agree to being treated like that , and its a shame that this does happen to women , but i believe alot of it is that , they really just don't want to know or don't care, come on think about , are we as women really that dumb, just my thoughts , but who am i to say, , loved you opions though there great
Posts: 10 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by coloradobreeze: HAD TO CHANGE SOME SPELLING AND ADD A FEW THINGS, SORRY!!!!!!!!!!! hi there, this was so interesting, but i already knew it was not legal to marry in another country in lawyers office, common sence i guess, i mean after all the paper work you have to do just to visit come on, how would that be legal, just walk in and puff your married be serious,i have a friend there in egypt as well very sweet man, when he asked me to marry him ,i said to him and just where do non-egyptain and egyptains get married and he told me that we could get married in cario at that place you mention and also we could go to my embassy to make sure everything was legal, maybe i found one that is for real , what do you think, anyway i can't wait to go there and really get to meet his family, they seem like very nice people, and spend time in such a beautiful counrty , am not sure when exactly this is all going to happen, but am glad i would have never agree to being treated like that , and its a shame that this does happen to women , but i believe alot of it is that , they really just don't want to know or don't care, come on think about , are we as women really that dumb, just my thoughts , but who am i to say, , loved you opions though there great
and i think its very good idea to put this stuff out here for the ones that don't know, its wonderful topic you picked here Posts: 10 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I married in Cairo at the Ministry - we had completed a civil marriage, which from my understanding is the 'legal' one. As I am from Canada, he had the certificate translated to English then it was dropped off at the Canadian Embassy in Cairo.
posted
Well, so far I have received only three emails on this subject. One legal marriage and two orfi. The two women with the orfi marriages said that they knew what they were doing and were not ready to make a legal commitment. I greatly appreciate the honesty of the women who wrote to me but I need a lot more to make a statistical analysis of the issues. I have met a great many women who are in relationships with Egyptian men since my first visit to Egypt more than two years ago. I personally have never met anyone who is legally married other than myself. I know about one or two others from this board such as niledoc. Most of the women I meet have orfi relationships and they are unaware of the significance or rather the lack of significance of such relationships in the legal sense. Many of them are relieved to find out that they are not married at all, because it usually doesnt take more than a few months for them to find out that they are being used and abused and then they are worried about how to get out of it. I tell them, go home and dont come back to this man, he can do nothing to you, he is not your husband, if you go to the authorities you can have him put in prison for fornication.
Posts: 92 | From: Britain | Registered: Oct 2001
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You know I really appreciate that you Jacqueline wanted to share this on the board. I find your postings very interesting. As I mentioned to you earlier, I am quite impressed. Is this research or something and what other information you would need to to make a statistical analysis of the issues? Did you see any correlation between Orfi and age? I am very interested in this subject.
posted
Although by profession I am a scientist I have always been interested in other cultures. The information that I have been gathering for two years about relationships between egyptian men and non egyptian women, particularly european women, began because of my feeling of outrage about what I consider to be a scandal that egyptian society and officialdom tries to sweep under the carpet. I plan to write a paper about this subject at length and hope to get it published internationally. I also plan to design my own website and publish information and advice for women in these situations. I am designing a questionaire aimed at producing statistics about what I consider to be important issues surrounding this subject based on my own experience and what other women tell me. When I am ready I will be seeking hundreds of volunteers to answer the questionaire, anonymously of course. My motivation for wanting to do this is very simple. I want women to have the facts so that if they choose to go into these kind of relationships they know the score and are less likely to be preyed upon. If I were to design a cartoon to represent my view of luxor, the egyptian men would be sharks and the female tourists would be minnows. I want to help to even the playing field by informing women. Information is power. There must be many women that read this forum that have been deceived by egyptian men, I would like them to write to me with their experiences. I would never reveal anyones identity.
Posts: 92 | From: Britain | Registered: Oct 2001
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Your topic for the paper and web site is definitely very interesting and it will receive a lots of attention. When you finish designing a questionaire, you have my email, please feel free to send it to me, if I can help with that. When you finish web site don't forget to let me know. You seem to have very interesting project! Good luck.
The comment on your topic. I have a feeling that Orfi and age are highly correlated. Do you think that younger women would be offered Orfi as much as women who are 50 or 60 years of age? I also don't understand why would not Egyptian men inform the western wife about everything? And another question, why the Western women never bother to ask about her rights BEFORE getting married? Any ideas?
------------------ Miss Sarajevo
[This message has been edited by Miss Sarajevo (edited 06 February 2003).]
posted
I actually have a lot of friends who are legally married to Egyptians, but I think it also depends how they meet the Egyptians. The vast majority of those who are married legally don't meet them as tourists.
I also don't think you can put all the blame on the men. A lot of these women know what they are doing and are taking advantage of the men themselves. How many of these orfi wives get pregnant and run back to their countries with the babies and the men can't do anything about it and lose their children? It happens a lot.
posted
Where are all the egyptian people who are members of this forum? This is going on in your country. Dont you have any opinions on this topic that you would care to share with the rest of us? Your silence is deafening by its very absence.
Posts: 92 | From: Britain | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Hi, Im a journalist doing an investigation into orfi marriages between Egyptian men and foreign woman. The message board seems to indicate that some women go into it knowing exactly what they want out of it and others suffer exploitation. If anyone is willing to discuss their experiences about orfi or share any background on the topic in confidence I'd appreciate it. Luxor sounds like an orfi-happy town, can anyone fill me in on this?
thanks
my email is inforequest22@yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by inforequest (edited 09 March 2003).]
quote:Originally posted by Jacqueline: I would be interested in hearing from non-egyptian women who have or used to have Orfi 'marriages' with egyptian men. In particular, did you know that it was not legal when you did it. If so what were your reasons for choosing this rather than a legal marriage. Did your man explain that it wasnt legal when he proposed this 'marriage' or was it not discussed. Did he allow you to believe that it was a genuine commitment both legally and in every other way. If you believed it to be legal at the time, how did you find out that it wasnt and how long did it take you to find out and what were your thoughts/feelings when you did find out. I would also like to hear from non-egyptian women who are legally married to egyptians. How did you find out about legal marriage, was it from your man, did he propose this or did you do your own research and let him know that you knew all about it. I would like to conduct a poll of orfi and legal marriages and surrounding issues. I would also be interested in the opinions of egyptian men (or anyone else for that matter) on this issue. If anyone would like to write to me in confidence my email address is asseliuk@yahoo.co.uk.
Posts: 6 | From: Jupiter, FL, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
I am legally married to an Egyptian man. When checking on requirements for marriage, I checked with the American Embassy in Cairo. On their website it is very clear about the ONLY legal marriage in Egypt. My husband also gave me the same information.
When we went to the Embassy in Cairo to get some papers notarized, the officials asked to speak with me apart from my then fiance. I was told that Egypt is #2 behind pakistan in Fraudulent marriages. I was told that as a part of a marriage contract, some Egyptian men have to get an American Visa so they must find an American woman. Marry her divorce her and then bring the Egyptian wife to America. I was warned about everything.
I did not have a bad experience, but I don't understand how women can be duped. If they would check with the American Embassy or their own Embassy they will find the information they need .
Posts: 6 | From: Jupiter, FL, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by susie781: -When we went to the Embassy in Cairo to get some papers notarized, the officials asked to speak with me apart from my then fiance. I was told that Egypt is #2 behind pakistan in Fraudulent marriages. I was told that as a part of a marriage contract, some Egyptian men have to get an American Visa so they must find an American woman. Marry her divorce her and then bring the Egyptian wife to America. I was warned about everything.-
Susie,
What if you marry the egyptian man, legally of course, NOT orfi, and you have large amount of the moakhar (spelling?) for yourself in the marriage contract if he divorces you. In your opinion do you think he is marrying you for the visa so he can divorce you, then marry the egyptian wife? I have read so many horror stories on these discussion boards, I am truly scared to death, and although everything the egyptian man i am engaged to seems truthful, now I totally doubt him!!!! I do NOT know what to think!!!!!!!!
I would be very interested in your opinion. Regards, Deneen
Posts: 44 | From: VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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What if you marry the egyptian man, legally of course, NOT orfi, and you have large amount of the moakhar (spelling?) for yourself in the marriage contract if he divorces you. In your opinion do you think he is marrying you for the visa so he can divorce you, then marry the egyptian wife? I have read so many horror stories on these discussion boards, I am truly scared to death, and although everything the egyptian man i am engaged to seems truthful, now I totally doubt him!!!! I do NOT know what to think!!!!!!!!
I would be very interested in your opinion. Regards, Deneen
Deneen,
I really don't know. My husband is a Christian. I am not saying that makes him perfect, but divorce is something rare for Christians in Egypt.
As for the horror stories, I think a lot of people were not being careful. That is why I said people should check with their Embassy or do their own homework before taking such a big step.
What concerns me is that you are so unsure about this man. I had no doubts about my husband. Even with all the warnings and information given to me by the American Embassy.
I suppose we never know, but be careful. Have you talked to him about your fears? How does he react to them? Is he Muslim? Does he believe that it is ok to have more than one wife? Does he want you to convert to his religion? If so, do you think you can really do it with conviction? There are so many questions and only you can answer them. In the end it comes down to what you feel in your heart and what you believe is true and right.
I am sorry, this doesn't answer your question. The answer is really with you. Not what anyone else tells you.
Posts: 6 | From: Jupiter, FL, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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THAT is GREAT advice!!! Thank you. I was NEVER freaked out until I started reading the message boards!!!
He wants to marry at the Ministry of Injustice (LOL his joke), so he's not after orfi. He would like for me to be able to live in Egypt, so I don't see him as a "visa hunter". When I've mentioned sending him a small package thru friends, you know maybe a book or music, he was totally insulted, so he doesn't want me to buy him anything. When he had trouble getting hard currency (dollars) to pay vendors outside of Egypt, he once again was totally insulted when I mentioned lending him dollars. He offered to put in the marriage contract that he would not take a 2nd wife, and he comes from a family with NO 2nd wives. He is Muslim, and he knows that I am Christian, as does his family, and he has NEVER brought up having me convert. His best friend is Christian, so he knows some of us. So all along, I've trusted him until recently after reading the discussion boards!!!!!!
I remember reading a post from someone on the boards stating that if you were happily married, then you probably would not be on here complaining and that people should consider that too. I do believe he was correct! Thanks again, Deneen
Posts: 44 | From: VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I am a Mexican woman, recently I visited Egypt and of course I fell in love with Egyptian: wonderful, sweet, affectionate, a briefly charming one. We spent days of dream, loving each other in the border of the Nile river..........mmmmmmm Since then we call each other frequently and we writen swearing eternal love and looking for the occasion to meet us again and finish what we left unfinished....??? Looking for information on Egypt I found this forum it really has left me with my mouth open of fear about the Egyptian men and the love with foreign women..... WHAT IS THAT OF ORFI... I must doubt the Egyptian men. They seem sincere......... and they are really romantic and enthusiastic.....
Posts: 3 | From: Mexico City | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Hola Bombopom! Coma esta? Yo no habla espanol muy bien.
The upper right corner of the screen has a search link. Click on this link, then type in Orfi or ORFI and you will find out more than you ever wanted to know about orfi.
Me llama es, Deneen
Posts: 44 | From: VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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NICE TO MEET YOU, THANKS FOR YOUR SPANISH AND SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH.
AS YOU RECOMMENDED TO ME I LOOKED FOR INFORMATION ABOUT "ORFI", REALLY I AM SURPRISED OF EVERYTHING WHAT I READ. I DID NOT IMAGINE WHICHEVER WOMEN FOREIGN FALL IN LOVE MAINLY WITH EGYPTIAN MEN SO THAT THEY ARE PEOPLE OF TOTALLY DIFFERENT CULTURES, DIFFERENT WAY TO SEE The LIFE And TO LIVE The RELIGION.
BASICALLY MEXICO IS a PRESERVATIVE COUNTRY and WE HAVE MANY SIMILARITIES WITH EGYPT (EVEN PIRAMIDE STEPPED SAAQUARA)THEREFORE IT SURPRISES ME THE WAY THEY LIVE, I DO NOT IMAGINE, FOR EXAMPLE, AS EUROPEAN Or a NORTH AMERICAN CAN UNDERSTAND the CULTURE.
I BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS: EGYPTIAN PEOPLE ARE VERY LOVING, AFFECTIONATE, AND KIND, DON´T THEY?
Posts: 3 | From: Mexico City | Registered: Mar 2003
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Yes, the culture is very different from USA. I am planning to go in June, so I am sure I am for culture shock!
I guess the main thing with your man, is just be careful. From what I have read, I think the Egyptian men must be like the Mexican men, very handsome, charming and very smooth talkers!
Deneen
Posts: 44 | From: VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ehhhhhhh!!!!! You are a very lucky person!!! I really would like to go soon, but, I can´t. It is impossible for me because I don´t have vacations in my work. Please enjoy a lot, and don´t fall in love with an egipcian (IT´S VERY EXPESIVE, phone calls, airplanes, etc.)
Posts: 3 | From: Mexico City | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
WOW! I didn't know about this type of marriage. What does this do to your citizenship in your home country? Are you required to stay in Egypt? I don't understand?
Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Katia, My understanding from what I've read on the internet is that the Orfi marriage would do nothing to your citizenship, because basically it is not a legal marriage in Egypt. It is the piece of paper that lets you and your Egyptian husband check into motels without hassle, live together, whatever. So it would be like "living together" in the states. Guess you can walk away at anytime without any "divorce issues". There is tons of stuff on this message board about it. Just do a search for Orfi marriage. D.
Posts: 44 | From: VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Deneen: Katia, My understanding from what I've read on the internet is that the Orfi marriage So it would be like "living together" in the states. .
Orfi marriage is NOT like living together in the states. Living together is socially acceptable in the US, and orfi marriage is not socially acceptable in Egypt. Orfi marriage is considered something illicit. Also, living together in America gives you more rights than orfi does in Egypt. In America, if you have children and you are living together or even you aren't living together, you can force the man to provide support for the children. With orfi marriage your children would get no rights from their father if he so chooses not to give them. They will not legally be his children.
posted
well, there are people in the states who don't think living together is socially accpetable at all. and vice versa in egypt some people have no problem with orfi and accept it as a temporary arrangment that suits them in a certain situation.
for egyptians it's different because they are fully aware of orfi and its advantages and disadvantages to a legal wedding, but foreigners often don't even know that they're not legally married if they just sign an orfi contract.
posted
I think you all missed a very important point about Orfi marriages..that they aren't really between egyptian men and foriegn women as much as they go on between college professors and their students as well as kids in college..between Egyptians. Frankly, I dont understand why an Egyptian man would ask a foreign woman to marry him orfi if she doesnt have any qualms about letting him in her pants without being married. I thought Orfi was just a stupid ploy older men used on young, Egyptian girls who are brought up being taught that its wrong to have premarital sex, but get conned into thinking that orfi makes it not sinful, which is totally not true b/c the main requirement of being married (at leats in Islam) is that it must be publically announced. Posts: 36 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by norase2000: I thought Orfi was just a stupid ploy older men used on young, Egyptian girls who are brought up being taught that its wrong to have premarital sex, but get conned into thinking that orfi makes it not sinful, which is totally not true b/c the main requirement of being married (at leats in Islam) is that it must be publically announced.
Norase, help me out here. I don't understand. Is Orfi an Islamic thing, an Egyptian thing or an African thing then? I always was under the impression it was an Islamic thing. Isn't it sanctioned as OK by Islam? I mean, I understand there are supposed to be only certain circumstances under which is it OK, and these professors and students, etc. that we talk about on line here are abusing it, but I still thought it was an Islamic thing. No? Your statement above makes it sound like it wasn't designed at all by Islam.
posted
A lot of people have the wrong idea about what an "Islamic marriage" is or isn't. An "Islamic marriage" is no more than a man and a woman publically announcing that they will be man and wife, with the permission of the girl's father if this is her first time to be married, and includes offering the woman a dowry. It's as simple as that. The whole "ma2zoon" thing is no more than a gov official that documents the marriage legally. The problem with orfi marriage is that its a secret marriage, and therefore, not valid according to Islam. As for where Orfi marriage actually came from, I'm not sure, but it could come from anywhere really. Unfortunetly people use it here and abuse women as a result of their own ignorance about the religion and/or their rights.
[This message has been edited by norase2000 (edited 12 April 2003).]
posted
I tried to marry an Egyptian man while I was in Egypt....I have been divorced and found the American Embassy would not allow us to finish the marriage there. I has to have an Egyptian stamp from the Egyptian Embassy (which is in the US) on my divorce papers. I was also talked to alone and told the same things you were. I honestly believe my man is telling me the truth. He owns his own company there and even suggested I live there with him. Now I am back in the US.....trying to find a way to marry him again.
quote:Originally posted by susie781: I am legally married to an Egyptian man. When checking on requirements for marriage, I checked with the American Embassy in Cairo. On their website it is very clear about the ONLY legal marriage in Egypt. My husband also gave me the same information.
When we went to the Embassy in Cairo to get some papers notarized, the officials asked to speak with me apart from my then fiance. I was told that Egypt is #2 behind pakistan in Fraudulent marriages. I was told that as a part of a marriage contract, some Egyptian men have to get an American Visa so they must find an American woman. Marry her divorce her and then bring the Egyptian wife to America. I was warned about everything.
I did not have a bad experience, but I don't understand how women can be duped. If they would check with the American Embassy or their own Embassy they will find the information they need .
Posts: 7 | From: Seneca Falls, NY USA | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jacqueline: Where are all the egyptian people who are members of this forum? This is going on in your country. Dont you have any opinions on this topic that you would care to share with the rest of us? Your silence is deafening by its very absence.
Hi everybody…. I'm really interested in this subject. As I'm an Egyptian girl what I really knew about Orfi marriage that it is an illegal marriage which is done by getting a piece of paper and writing the names of the married ones and their signature. As a result of that marriage the woman has no rights and if she got a baby, that baby won't be accepted to be written after his father's name if he refused to avouch that marriage. That marriage is being refused by the law and religion. That marriage was firstly appeared in some poor places in Egypt in which the rich Arabians came to marry the young poor Egyptian girls (nearly 16 to 20 years old as I remember) to have some fun, but they didn't really marry them. They deceived their families by money and then they leave that poor girls alone with no real marriage and they return to their home. It was then used by the male college students who want to have some fun with other female students by deceiving them by that untrue marriage and their unreal love and then they let them alone with their problem as that girls can't tell her family and also can't marry another one without telling the truth which is so hard in the Egyptian society. The problem is much bigger if she is pregnant. It is also used by the professors and college students. It was then used to solve others problems facing with a new legal marriage for example, if a women which is relict and want to marry someone, but don't want to loose the stipend of the last husband, so she moves to that orfi marriage in order to receive that stipend also after her marriage (which is illegal). So some Egyptians may use this marriage with non-egyptians in order to solve some problems facing them in a legal marriage. By the way, it is not an Islamic marriage.
posted
[QUOTE] Hi, I am swiss women and I am very interested in that forum. Me, I'will soon marry my egyptian boyfriend legally on the embassy. When I met my boyfriend 2 years ago, he told me about this marriage contract on a lawyer office. And he told me that this contract is not legal, it's only for the police that you can live together and walk in the streets without problems. you can cut this contract anytime. I ask myself why the women don't ask about something like that. How you can believe it's so easy to marry. I was living and working in Egypt for one year and 3 months. I can give anybody the advice to go there and to live with your love during a certain period. Like that you have the chance to see who is your lover really. Stay with his family, care about their reaction. How do they treat you? During my stay I saw and I spoke with many women in such a relationship. In Hurghada, where I lived many man did this orfi contract, but only because they want money of the women. They chose especially older women. If you are much older than him, please think about clearly. Which man likes to marry a women at the age of his mother? that's illusion of this women. You have to think with your head not with your heart, because a lot of egyptian men are good actors. In Hurghada 95% of this orfi marriages are only for money and sex or to leave later to another country. I can only tell it again, go there and live with him a longer time and I promise you, sooner or later you will know if it's a fault or not.
Did you get married in the Shar El Akari? How long did the whole procedures take and how much you paid for the required translations, cetificates etc? And did you have to get married in the coptic church, too? Most informations available are about muslim marriages only..
Yes, the culture is very different from USA. I am planning to go in June, so I am sure I am for culture shock!
I guess the main thing with your man, is just be careful. From what I have read, I think the Egyptian men must be like the Mexican men, very handsome, charming and very smooth talkers!
Deneen
[This message has been edited by egipto26 (edited 15 December 2003).]
posted
Hi Deneen and,Susie, Bombopom, I am American and have an Egyptian fiancee and we will marry in June- the legal way- in a marriage court. We also know that we have to fill out some forms in the US Embassy. I hope I am doing the right thing as I also have some doubts. I would like to be in contact with you. If you can, please email me at egipto26@yahoo.com as I am not able to check this forum every day. Thanks.
posted
I got this off the UN website, about ORFI marriage:
1.2 Notarisation of the marriage contract: The marriage contract is notarised. However, it is not drawn before a notary public, but it is drawn up before the Ma'zoun, who is the official authorised to perform the marriage ceremony. The contract is then registered in the official registers of the State. It is issued in duplicate, one copy for each of the parties. However, a marriage contract is valid even if it is not notarised. Thus an "orfy" (unofficial) or non-registered marriage contract meets all the legal requirements for the constitution of a contract. However, an "orfy" marriage does not invest the wife with the rights she would enjoy under a notarised marriage contract. For example, an "orfy" wife is not entitled to financial support or alimony in case of divorce or to her husband's pension on his death, and the marriage relationship does not enjoy judicial protection unless it is officially acknowledged by the husband. Moreover, the wife in an 'orfy" marriage must institute legal proceedings to establish her children's parentage. Further, if for any reason, she is unable to agree on a divorce, the court will not hear her case for divorce according to the present procedures. This puts the wife in an impossible situation where the husband can and may divorce her at any time while she cannot even obtain divorce through the court. Legislative Reform is urgently needed in this respect. http://www.unesco.org/webworld/peace_library/EGYPT/WOMEN/105.HTM
posted
Ladies, I have a question about ORFI marriage and children. If a foreign woman wanted to have a baby with an Egyptian father but also wanted to make sure the father had no legal rights to the child: Would an ORFI marriage meet these needs? I am not advocating nor considering this option, I was just wondering..........
Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have posted a clarification to the legal points of the Orfi marraige under another thread. I just want to clarify one more point here. Writing a paper between two people, or keeping a relationship secret nulifies the marriage contract. There has to be witnesses and there has to be announcement for the contract to be valid. I can see that there is some confusion between a contract drawn infront of a lawyer with witnesses and announcement and a paper drawn between 2 people. The second is not a marriage at all not even Orfi. The conditions are proposal, acceptance, and witnesses (this gives the announcement). If you do not have all of this it is not marraige. As I mentioned in the other thread, the impled terms that cover the obligations in the formal marriage are not part of the Orfi contract unless you specifically include them in the contract. And to ensure your leagl standing the registration is required, especially when one party to the contract is non-Egyptian. The only point I have with the above guidance from the unesco is that although you might need to go to court to prove paranthood, nearly in all cases the courts accepts the Orfi marriage as a proof. It is only the financial matters that are difficult.
[This message has been edited by eserry (edited 27 July 2003).]
posted
Very interesting. From what i understand her is that this Orfi is a kind of safe way for us women to live with an egyptian men, so that he can somehow more or less politely explain this relationship to his own cultural circle, while it leaves us all freedomn to safely leave if it shouldn't work out? Because I think the legal marriage still gives a husband some rights over the wife there, or not?
Because I personally do not feel I need an official excuse for living with someone if there is love (if no love, no forced or tying arrangement is meaningful anyway, in my opinion) and although in our western culture I would accept marriage as a sign he really believes in me and us, I admit in a strange country I'd rather have some kind of "trial period" :)
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There is something in between ORFI and LEGAL CAIRO marriage in Egypt. I did it during my first trip to Egypt solely for the purpose of not being harassed by the police at the tourist sites (we stayed in separate rooms anyway...). It is written on the green/blue paper and is notarized in the real court. My husband’s lawyer friend confirmed it was completely legal, which did not matter to us that much since we have planned the Ministry of Justice horror stunt anyway. For American women planning on legal marriage in Cairo: READ CAREFULLY the instructions on the embassy website, as there is gazillions of stamps you will need from US and Egypt, especially when including your divorce decree. Anybody wanting to marry in Cairo has to be aware that the whole process will take at least 2 weeks with the translation and American Embassy notarization. I have read unpleasant stories on ES about American Embassy giving lectures to women when they went there to authenticate documents prior to getting married to Egyptian men. I must say that I have met a truly charming guy there (American) who notarized my stuff and congratulated me on my upcoming marriage. Maybe certain age difference triggers them to perform the exorcism , but don't worry girls, they do not pour sacred water on all of women getting married in Cairo.
I think your advice is one of the best I have heard in a long time.
"If you are scared of the unknown, get to know the unknown" Great advice, get to know the family ,ask questions of relatives, etc. For those that don't have the money to travel back and forth, or vacation time, maybe an idea, those that are living in egypt, maybe can offer some help to make local calls, if you have some spare time or e-mail to offer others to give you info to help them. Kind of like a "help-line". Always the government does not help and sometimes they don't know themselves this info. about the man and his specific personal background.
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I agree 100% with ‘getting to know the unknown’ idea. However, for the women working and having their life abroad it is much easier said than done. It is very hard to keep the job abroad (a MUST to get any emigration visa for the husband later on), and live in Egypt at the same time. I solved this problem by getting 5 weeks off from my job (was lucky to get it, a lot of employers would not allow it) and staying with my husband prior to getting 'legally' married. In a year of knowing my husband, I spent total of 2 months with him. It is VERY costly, what matters to many of us here I think... Another obstacle: no self-respecting Muslim family will allow their son to live in their house with a woman without being married. It also has to be seriously taken into consideration: the way of HOW to see the family treating future daughter-in-law on the ‘everyday level’. All that means we have to be really aware of all difficulties in having 'real relationship' with someone living so far from us, and think through all the options of getting to know each other BEFORE falling MADLY in love. I know, I know, easier said than done again. But not impossible, and worth the effort if that is what we really (REALLY) want in a long run. Posts: 2238 | From: Mother Earth | Registered: Jun 2004
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Karah, It is true the cost, I agree. That's why I suggested a kind of help-line. Believe me people can help you more living there in egypt , than the government & find out info these women are searching for. Some families in the middle east, I remember many years ago when I was stationed in the gulf some families , would allow the unmarried girl , of course ,in a separate bedroom to visit the country if she wanted to settle and live in Kuwait. It's true a lot of people won't allow this and cost is a huge factor. Good luck to you, they always say things work out for the best& and everything happens for a reason. Posts: 273 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Alana: Karah, It is true the cost, I agree. That's why I suggested a kind of help-line. Believe me people can help you more living there in egypt , than the government & find out info these women are searching for. Some families in the middle east, I remember many years ago when I was stationed in the gulf some families , would allow the unmarried girl , of course ,in a separate bedroom to visit the country if she wanted to settle and live in Kuwait. It's true a lot of people won't allow this and cost is a huge factor. Good luck to you, they always say things work out for the best& and everything happens for a reason.
Thank you Alana! I am actually 'done' with the nightmare, as my husband already had his emigration visa interview and his passport was taken to be checked and returned with his visa. Now I just have to make the Embassy to finally do their job and send him his passport back!!!
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Hmm... but why are you going back to US, would not Egypt be so much more interesting? Though unbearably hot in summer, I assume, but really really exciting??? the old economies are just running their rutinous run, everything seen, done, experienced, already existing, really difficult to still find ways of adding value and doing something meaningful? Not true?
Posts: 90 | From: www.visitestonia.com | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pritipersoon55: Hmm... but why are you going back to US, would not Egypt be so much more interesting? Though unbearably hot in summer, I assume, but really really exciting??? the old economies are just running their rutinous run, everything seen, done, experienced, already existing, really difficult to still find ways of adding value and doing something meaningful? Not true?
My life is in the US, not Egypt yet. I can't just get up and go, since I am not independently wealthy and able to support myself anywhere in the world... My husband's flat is in his small city, which would be unbearable for me to live in.. I am after all a 'big city' rat and this is where I truly feel myself. I love art, music, galleries... I really suffocate if I can't absorb a big city’s ambiance. Also, as you can read here in many posts, life in Egypt is extremely hard and challenging, and I have to admit I am used to a bit different lifestyle. My husband agreed to stay in the US for a few years to gather means to be able to go back to Egypt, buy a flat in Cairo, and then enjoy unquestionable charm and beauty of the Land of Pharaohs.
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