quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Anyone interested in how the Pololo story is turning out, write to me at my email and identify yourself. I'll try to share the gory details.
posted
To all the people that Help and specially to Debbie and her's friend I would like to said the Biggest Thanksssss possible ,since the story is not completely over Yet , I cannot yet write anything , but lucky are debbie's friend. I hope I'll be able to write alot more under few days. Again thank to everyone and specially to Debbie May God Bless Mark
Posts: 17 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The whole story is posted on another website. What's the big deal? Post it here too. Why the need for this "identify yourself" email stuff?
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Never mind. Sorry I posted anything at all.
And Jag... I asked that for a reason. I really was hoping to just attract the attention of the people that had originally posted to him. Since then all sorts of looky-loos have writen to me and others, such as yourself have just given an address here, and it's like people just want to know the details of a bad accident and that's not what this was all about.
But never mind. Let the subject drop.
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 28 April 2004).]
posted
My question remains the same: Why did your friends put the whole story on another website, if its such a big deal. I would post it here but it would take me a day to edit the foul language from it.
Anyways, Hope you are back safe in Belgium Mark. Will wait to hear from you. Laura
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: There is a "big deal" and if you want to know what it is, write to me and I'll explain it to you. Otherwise it's sort of a NYB spot. Those that couldn't be bothered to get off their butts and help originally, don't necessarily need to know the dirt now.
There are a number of people writing that never even did as little as you did in the original thread. At least you wished him good luck.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by jaguar: I did post my email. However,Don't bother( I know you won't) as it is getting sort of BEG ME to not send you the details.
Besides you going to try to tell me you didn't get the information from another source? I figured you were taken care of.
quote:Originally posted by Laura: My question remains the same: Why did your friends put the whole story on another website, if its such a big deal. I would post it here but it would take me a day to edit the foul language from it.
Anyways, Hope you are back safe in Belgium Mark. Will wait to hear from you. Laura
Maybe it's was because they actually did something to help and they thought it was their right? I don't know. Maybe you should ask them.
posted
Didn't you do anything? lol I guess you just love the "drama" scene...
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Maybe it's was because they actually did something to help and they thought it was their right? I don't know. Maybe you should ask them.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Besides you going to try to tell me you didn't get the information from another source? I figured you were taken care of.
Debbie.. I did, matter of fact, but my point was I didn't have to help to have the honour. But got to give you credit, you're a brave woman. Posts: 477 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
For those not considered special enough to get the story, here it is in it's unedited form from the "rescue team"?? ...Brave is not the word I would use for those involved in this drunken spree...IDIOT is the word that comes to mind...Mark, I think you got to your embassy inspite of the help?? offered.
Laura
"If you remember a member called palolo... He was going to cross the border to Egypt from Israel. Bizo and I vulonteered to go get him...
First we packed the car, beers, snacks, sparkling wine and drove off and met CC, who lovingly provided more beer and maps and stuff!
Then we drove off, started hitting the lager pretty hard and arrived to A.H. Tunnel. At the tunnel we bribed us way thru(we had no drivers license) and proceeded with the beer and remaining trip. Time was now about 2:30 am.
After additional cans and kilometers we came to the road we had to take... BUT a big blue sign said "no foreigners allowed on this road"... But we convinced the two soldiers that I was egyptian or half egyptian and were allowed to proceed! Woohooo
Onwards!
More beer, more milage, now going on 4 am... Then we came to the city of Nakhl. 100 houses housing 100 bedouins tops and a military installation, or uhmmm a police one. Two roads lead from Nakhl to the designated pick up point so we tried the first. 30 minutes of hagling and bargaining got us nowhere and we finally asked if there was a hotel then, that i could stay in and Bizo continue... There was...
We then went back and spend another half hour thinking up a plan, having some more alcohol... Then I went in the trunk of the car along with my mobile and two beers... Dark, cold, small and very uncomfortable the trunk was.
And we proceeded to the other road and got thru... Now only one hour or so to out pick up point. 20 Miles inside the forbidden territory the car suddently stopped. I was writing sms to my mom while I heard people talking outside. Damn another check point. The voices kept comming closer and closer and the suddently the suns rays shone upon me... they fucking searched the trunk. **** . In there a big fucking blonde guy was hiding... hell's bell's! I nearly wet my pants laughing, cause it felt very weird lying there with two soldier staring in disbelief...
After a long morning of talks and stuff they agreed to let us go... And told us to get the **** outta Sinai before the officers superior found out! So we did.
It all ended well tho, I think, for the dude is now at the Belgium Embassy in Cairo!!
Woohooo
after they caught Jak in the car trunk, they accused us of either being spies or smuglers. We had to show the officer the exchanged emails and the map, our business cards and even our mobile phonebooks.
The way Jak told the story to the officer made him wet himself laughing, then he started sympathizing with Pololo and told us that if he was caught by the Egyptian Army that they will deport him to his country and he ordered us out of Sinai Immediately.
We then called Pololo and told him the situation.
two hours later we got a phone call from his friends in Israel confirming that he crossed.
We did try to contact some friends to find some road to the meeting point but with no success.
But then we were assured by someone we know in the army that most propably he will be caught by the Egyptian army and that it is better for him if there will be no Egyptians involved since that may raise doubts about the whole thing."
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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and why are you continuing to ask debbie about why this guy posted it? how would she know? obviously she didn't want to post it on the internet and the other guy thought nothing of it and did post the story. is it really that hard to figure out?
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Anyone interested in how the Pololo story is turning out, write to me at my email and identify yourself. I'll try to share the gory details.
That was not a Pololo story, that was the two drunken idiots story.
As far as I'm concerned, that is NOT the Pololo story, and it has not been told yet completely. (At this point it is Pololos baby to finish, and he's going to) Instead, this is the funny story of an adventure two guys had that at least got off their butts and tried to help. We've since jokingly nicknamed them the Monty Python Rescue team (although it seemed they were both too young to really appreciate the title). In spite of their state of mind, they actually did step up the the gate when called on and did something which is loads more than some people that are name calling around here could be bothered to do, and the way I see it, even if they didn't manage to complete the rescue there, they were performing a valuable service by distracting police in the area while something else, more important, was happening. So, say anything you want about them Laura and anyone else. They are stand-up guys when someone needs help, and I would surely call on them for help anytime.
Pololo just called me to report he safely landed in Amsterdam this morning, and I'm sure he will post when he's ready.
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Expat and Homesick are both right.
As far as I'm concerned, that is NOT the Pololo story, and it has not been told yet completely. (At this point it is Pololos baby to finish, and he's going to) Instead, this is the funny story of an adventure two guys had that at least got off their butts and tried to help. We've since jokingly nicknamed them the Monty Python Rescue team (although it seemed they were both too young to really appreciate the title). In spite of their state of mind, they actually did step up the the gate when called on and did something which is loads more than some people that are name calling around here could be bothered to do, and the way I see it, even if they didn't manage to complete the rescue there, they were performing a valuable service by distracting police in the area while something else, more important, was happening. So, say anything you want about them Laura and anyone else. They are stand-up guys when someone needs help, and I would surely call on them for help anytime.
Pololo just called me to report he safely landed in Amsterdam this morning, and I'm sure he will post when he's ready.
Debbie,
Just the fact you find this "funny" says enough for me. If this were my son, brother, husband, I would find it anything BUT funny given the seriousness of the situation.
As for what any of us did or did not do, may I quote you in reply. "NYB" What any of us chose to do regarding Mark's situation, whether by moral support and advice online or off the board in other ways, obviously didnt need to be exploited and announced for attention/publicity purposes.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Amy (Lynn Johnson) wife of Ayman Mohamed and mother of maria who live on 1512 Spruce Place Apt #101 Minneapolis, MN 55403-3416 (612) 871-8357.
quote:Originally posted by Organized Crime: Now this is the juicy snippet I found this weekend. Somehow I feel the refugee situation has exasperated the color/race issue in Cairo.
This is long and difficult to digest, but its best to start chewing on it now. Its like petrified red meat.
From the book Cairo: City of Sand by Maria Golia
pg.127
called Caucasian type generally associated with foreigners and upper-crust Egyptians. Some Cairenes may recall that several centuries of their city's history belonged to the original Caucasians, the ones from the Caucasus (Circassian Mamlucks and Turks of Circassian extraction), whose features include light skin and light-colored eyes. Whether associated consciously or not wih the old ruling class, there is a marked preference for so-called Causcasian attributes. Many young brunettes lighten their hair; a larger number regularly endure the ordeal of straightening it. Middle and upper-class girls can purchase disposable coloured contact lenses at any number of pharmacies.
portray, it is unlikely that an inferiority complex is the cause for them. As a theory explaining social ills, the khawagaa complex merely substitutes psychological barriers for quantifiable, and actionable, constriants.
The term 'imperialist oppressor' (which barely had time to fall into disuse before its unfortunate post 9/11 revival), however vehementally employed, nearly always hides a grudging esteem. No matter how hypocritical or manacing first world nations maybe, htye have cities with proper schools and parks, and governments who serve the people at least once in a while. Likewise with regards to the strangers in their midst, the wealthy Egyptians, no matter how pretentious, the fact that they travel and that their children are healthy and well-educated does not escape the average Cairene's notice. Interest in the perennial other, whether foreign by birth or lifestyle, is a mtter of self-appraisal and definition, a weighing of pros and cons, a granting of concessions to reality. The Cairene conceit, arrived at through comparison, is a practical one. 'We're better people, but they're better off.'
The official attitude is less frank. However avid for the percieved benefits of capitalism, accommodating to foreign interests on economic issues, or suspectible to foreign models of so-called modern life, the line of demarcation between 'us' and 'them' is conspicuously drawn in laws relating to marriage. Women who eschew teir compatriots as spouses were once obliged to relinquish their nationality. While that is no longer the case, they still cannot pass Egyptian citizenship onto their children. Although born and raised in Egypt, children of foreign fathers will always be treated as outsiders by a vindictive bureaucracy as punishment for their mothers' lack of discriminiation.
By contrast, when an Egyptian man marries a foreign women, the latter is typically granted an Egyptian passport (having supplied the requisite ream of paperwork) within a year or two of request, suggesting tht feelings for foreigners cut both ways. Many Egyptians describe local feelings towards foreigners as envy's admixiture of lvoe and hate, and the contigent desire to emulate and absorb the other. We'll absorb you gladly, is the message sent to the foreign lady, because you've shown such fine judgement in choosing us.
The impulse to emulate foreigners is evident in popular perceptions of beauty. Far from idealizing the attractions of the dark-eyed and honey-hued, favour attaches to the so-called Caucasian type generally associated with foreigners and upper-crust Egyptians. Some Cairenes may recall that several centuries of their city's history belonged to the original Caucasians, the ones from the Caucasus (Circassian Mamlucks and Turks of Circassian extraction), whose features include light skin and light-colored eyes. Whether associated consciously or not wih the old ruling class, there is a marked preference for so-called Causcasian attributes. Many young brunettes lighten their hair; a larger number regularly endure the ordeal of straightening it. Middle and upper-class girls can purchase disposable coloured contact lenses at any number of pharmacies.
Light skin is unabashedly marketed; billboards for Fair and Lovely, The World's Number One Fairness Cream dot the city. Television commercials for the same product feature high school girls about to audition for the play Kais and Leila, a romance from classical Arab literature. The class vedette wants to the lead role, but her schoolmates warn her that Leila was 'beautiful' whereas she is 'dark'. The girl hastens to buy bleaching cream and, several timelapsed shades paler, gets teh aprt and appreciative looks from her make classmates.
quote:Originally posted by Organized Crime: Now this is the juicy snippet I found this weekend. Somehow I feel the refugee situation has exasperated the color/race issue in Cairo.
This is long and difficult to digest, but its best to start chewing on it now. Its like petrified red meat.
From the book Cairo: City of Sand by Maria Golia
pg.127
Underlying these interactions, however fleet or superficial, are sinous currents or feeling, but how mcuh does the average Cairnene really care about foreigners? Probably nowhere near as mcuh as foreigners devel on Egyptians' preceptions of them. It is both foreign residents and upper-class Egyptians who postulate the khawagaa complex (foreigner complex) they attribute to Egypt at large. The khawagaa complex is theoretically provoked by peoples' insecurities regarding the west and its intentions, and a lack of confidence because of substandard education, a slow economy and rhetorical democracy. The khawagaa complex is a kind of post-colonial trauma, a side effect of globalism, that state of everwhelmed resentment at not being able to 'keep up'. While there is truth in these observations with regards to the conditions of life they portray, it is unlikely that an inferiority complex is the cause for them. As a theory explaining social ills, the khawagaa complex merely substitutes psychological barriers for quantifiable, and actionable, constriants.
The term 'imperialist oppressor' (which barely had time to fall into disuse before its unfortunate post 9/11 revival), however vehementally employed, nearly always hides a grudging esteem. No matter how hypocritical or manacing first world nations maybe, htye have cities with proper schools and parks, and governments who serve the people at least once in a while. Likewise with regards to the strangers in their midst, the wealthy Egyptians, no matter how pretentious, the fact that they travel and that their children are healthy and well-educated does not escape the average Cairene's notice. Interest in the perennial other, whether foreign by birth or lifestyle, is a mtter of self-appraisal and definition, a weighing of pros and cons, a granting of concessions to reality. The Cairene conceit, arrived at through comparison, is a practical one. 'We're better people, but they're better off.'
The official attitude is less frank. However avid for the percieved benefits of capitalism, accommodating to foreign interests on economic issues, or suspectible to foreign models of so-called modern life, the line of demarcation between 'us' and 'them' is conspicuously drawn in laws relating to marriage. Women who eschew teir compatriots as spouses were once obliged to relinquish their nationality. While that is no longer the case, they still cannot pass Egyptian citizenship onto their children. Although born and raised in Egypt, children of foreign fathers will always be treated as outsiders by a vindictive bureaucracy as punishment for their mothers' lack of discriminiation.
By contrast, when an Egyptian man marries a foreign women, the latter is typically granted an Egyptian passport (having supplied the requisite ream of paperwork) within a year or two of request, suggesting tht feelings for foreigners cut both ways. Many Egyptians describe local feelings towards foreigners as envy's admixiture of lvoe and hate, and the contigent desire to emulate and absorb the other. We'll absorb you gladly, is the message sent to the foreign lady, because you've shown such fine judgement in choosing us.
The impulse to emulate foreigners is evident in popular perceptions of beauty. Far from idealizing the attractions of the dark-eyed and honey-hued, favour attaches to the so-called Caucasian type generally associated with foreigners and upper-crust Egyptians. Some Cairenes may recall that several centuries of their city's history belonged to the original Caucasians, the ones from the Caucasus (Circassian Mamlucks and Turks of Circassian extraction), whose features include light skin and light-colored eyes. Whether associated consciously or not wih the old ruling class, there is a marked preference for so-called Causcasian attributes. Many young brunettes lighten their hair; a larger number regularly endure the ordeal of straightening it. Middle and upper-class girls can purchase disposable coloured contact lenses at any number of pharmacies.
Light skin is unabashedly marketed; billboards for Fair and Lovely, The World's Number One Fairness Cream dot the city. Television commercials for the same product feature high school girls about to audition for the play Kais and Leila, a romance from classical Arab literature. The class vedette wants to the lead role, but her schoolmates warn her that Leila was 'beautiful' whereas she is 'dark'. The girl hastens to buy bleaching cream and, several timelapsed shades paler, gets teh aprt and appreciative looks from her make classmates.
quote:Originally posted by Organized Crime: Now this is the juicy snippet I found this weekend. Somehow I feel the refugee situation has exasperated the color/race issue in Cairo.
This is long and difficult to digest, but its best to start chewing on it now. Its like petrified red meat.
From the book Cairo: City of Sand by Maria Golia
pg.127
Underlying these interactions, however fleet or superficial, are sinous currents or feeling, but how mcuh does the average Cairnene really care about foreigners? Probably nowhere near as mcuh as foreigners devel on Egyptians' preceptions of them. It is both foreign residents and upper-class Egyptians who postulate the khawagaa complex (foreigner complex) they attribute to Egypt at large. The khawagaa complex is theoretically provoked by peoples' insecurities regarding the west and its intentions, and a lack of confidence because of substandard education, a slow economy and rhetorical democracy. The khawagaa complex is a kind of post-colonial trauma, a side effect of globalism, that state of everwhelmed resentment at not being able to 'keep up'. While there is truth in these observations with regards to the conditions of life they portray, it is unlikely that an inferiority complex is the cause for them. As a theory explaining social ills, the khawagaa complex merely substitutes psychological barriers for quantifiable, and actionable, constriants.
The term 'imperialist oppressor' (which barely had time to fall into disuse before its unfortunate post 9/11 revival), however vehementally employed, nearly always hides a grudging esteem. No matter how hypocritical or manacing first world nations maybe, htye have cities with proper schools and parks, and governments who serve the people at least once in a while. Likewise with regards to the strangers in their midst, the wealthy Egyptians, no matter how pretentious, the fact that they travel and that their children are healthy and well-educated does not escape the average Cairene's notice. Interest in the perennial other, whether foreign by birth or lifestyle, is a mtter of self-appraisal and definition, a weighing of pros and cons, a granting of concessions to reality. The Cairene conceit, arrived at through comparison, is a practical one. 'We're better people, but they're better off.'
The official attitude is less frank. However avid for the percieved benefits of capitalism, accommodating to foreign interests on economic issues, or suspectible to foreign models of so-called modern life, the line of demarcation between 'us' and 'them' is conspicuously drawn in laws relating to marriage. Women who eschew teir compatriots as spouses were once obliged to relinquish their nationality. While that is no longer the case, they still cannot pass Egyptian citizenship onto their children. Although born and raised in Egypt, children of foreign fathers will always be treated as outsiders by a vindictive bureaucracy as punishment for their mothers' lack of discriminiation.
By contrast, when an Egyptian man marries a foreign women, the latter is typically granted an Egyptian passport (having supplied the requisite ream of paperwork) within a year or two of request, suggesting tht feelings for foreigners cut both ways. Many Egyptians describe local feelings towards foreigners as envy's admixiture of lvoe and hate, and the contigent desire to emulate and absorb the other. We'll absorb you gladly, is the message sent to the foreign lady, because you've shown such fine judgement in choosing us.
The impulse to emulate foreigners is evident in popular perceptions of beauty. Far from idealizing the attractions of the dark-eyed and honey-hued, favour attaches to the so-called Caucasian type generally associated with foreigners and upper-crust Egyptians. Some Cairenes may recall that several centuries of their city's history belonged to the original Caucasians, the ones from the Caucasus (Circassian Mamlucks and Turks of Circassian extraction), whose features include light skin and light-colored eyes. Whether associated consciously or not wih the old ruling class, there is a marked preference for so-called Causcasian attributes. Many young brunettes lighten their hair; a larger number regularly endure the ordeal of straightening it. Middle and upper-class girls can purchase disposable coloured contact lenses at any number of pharmacies.
Light skin is unabashedly marketed; billboards for Fair and Lovely, The World's Number One Fairness Cream dot the city. Television commercials for the same product feature high school girls about to audition for the play Kais and Leila, a romance from classical Arab literature. The class vedette wants to the lead role, but her schoolmates warn her that Leila was 'beautiful' whereas she is 'dark'. The girl hastens to buy bleaching cream and, several timelapsed shades paler, gets teh aprt and appreciative looks from her make classmates.
More garbage, crap crap and more fucking crap
Amy (Lynn Johnson) wife of Ayman Mohamed and mother of maria who live on 1512 Spruce Place Apt #101 Minneapolis, MN 55403-3416 (612) 871-8357.
posted
I am hardly a fan of the ET gang but in this case I beg to differ with you Laura. On the risk of being repetitive, AT LEAST THEY DID SOMETHING. They volunteered a whole day and drove all the way to Sinai and risked being arrested in a very sensitive zone. If they needed alcohol to keep them going then so what? Moreover the way they told the story doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how it happened. They told it in a humourous, self deprecating way. How else were they supposed to tell it? Talk about how heroic and brave they all were, that would be real lame.
Posts: 850 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: I am hardly a fan of the ET gang but in this case I beg to differ with you Laura. On the risk of being repetitive, AT LEAST THEY DID SOMETHING. .
Kimo,
If you consider putting unlicensed drivers in a car loaded with alcohol and maps and sending then on their way into a highly sensitive military patroled border area to pick up a man who is illlegally crossing a border fleeing prosecution by the Israeli government "DOING SOMETHING" then I guess there is no need for me to say more.
Marks original post was deleted, but it seems to me that I and many others offered some valid and highly workable alternatives that didnt require the action that was taken by Debbie and her friends. Since they did not pick him up and bring him back who's to say that the plans offered by the rest us would not have worked. Is the only criteria for "doing something" being there physically?
I also found it offensive that Debbie deemed herself the judge of who was "worthy" of any news concerning all of this based on what she felt we did or did not contribute. The story was posted for all here to read originally, and if there was news to share it should have been shared with all unbegrudgingly.
Laura
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Laura, I share MANY of your thoughts. I'm sure Debbie did what she could to help,with the best of motives, but the other two (or at least one of them) just did it for an "adventure" and then started posting about it and looking for applause before Mark was even safely home. Is jeopardising the whole thing by drinking alcohol really heroic? Self deprecating my arse kimo, it was all just a game to him.
Posts: 561 | Registered: May 2002
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Smuggling people and aiding illegal entry to Egypt is against the law. Whoever was involved - if reported to intelligence authorities would probably be the subject for investigation, regardless of who the person was and why the person was illegally crossing the board. In addition - the foreign citizens currently residing in Egypt who were aiding illegal entry could be deported to their country of origin, charged and sentenced to prison in both countries. There were other ways to handle this situation.
Posts: 5 | From: United States | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Matter of fact, I'm still questionning the real objective of Mark being in Israel Posts: 477 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: On the risk of being repetitive, AT LEAST THEY DID SOMETHING.
Get DRUNK, get Lost and were Ordered out of wherever they went.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: They volunteered a whole day and drove all the way to Sinai and risked being arrested in a very sensitive zone. If they needed alcohol to keep them going then so what?
That is their daily routine, that's all they do.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Talk about how heroic and brave they all were, that would be real lame.
They were not heros, they did not help Pololo in any way, all they proved is that they are childish, Adventurous and Great fun, I wish I was with them(excpet I don't drink).
[This message has been edited by homesick2 (edited 30 April 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Monica: I was wondering myself, how come he was so fearless...is he that naive? debbie can you clarify that?
Sorry Monica, I can't. I think I'll leave anything else to be said about it to Pololo. I don't want anyone else saying I'm saying the wrong things or the wrong things to the wrong people or whatever. Pololo will say what he wants to say in good time.
Jag, I wish I knew you. I would have been happy to SMS you and invite you to our LITTLE celebration party with Mark before he left town so you could have met him yourself and seen for yourself the kind of guy he is. I don't think there is one of us that is ashamed or unhappy to be part of his life.
And to Laura.... I really don't expect you to believe me now, simply because you just don't like me, but when I FIRST posted this I wanted to write something like: "Monica, Kimo, Jag, Laura, contact me about the Pololo story" Yes, I was trying to pick and choose who I was, at that time, going to tell, but I didn't because I was afraid I'd miss someone. Now do you see a common thread among those names I mentioned? They were the ones that actually posted in that orignial thread with something to say. BUT... maybe they weren't all the names that posted in that thread and I would have felt bad if I'd missed someone important, that had legitimately posted help. Unfortunately, what I did instead was NOT direct it to a few and what I got was exactly what I didn't want... a bunch of looky loos that had never been much interested when it was posted, but now with the words "gory details" <------ again, my mistake for using those words.... it just drew the crowd I was trying to deter - to hear the gossip. Most of the people I mentioned in that list wrote to me, as requested and got their answer. You, instead, decided to be offended, and this thread has gone downhill from there. FYI - I don't guess I'll be posting here any more about this. If Pololo comes back to post his story, then I guess you'll get more of the story.
P.S. Monica was right about it starting here. The story did begin on ES for us. ES was the first forum he said he found that met his criteria when he searched for help. ET came after that. It really wouldn't have mattered which one he found first, since many members are the same from both boards.
You just don't get it, I guess that is why when I have disagreed with many things you have posted in the past you have come to the conclusion I don't like you. Do I, or any of us for that matter, have to accept and agree with everything you say and/or do, if so what a boring board this would be. If there is one thing I DONT LIKE its "mutual admiration societies"..
quote:Originally posted by Debbie:
And to Laura.... I really don't expect you to believe me now, simply because you just don't like me, but when I FIRST posted this I wanted to write something like: "Monica, Kimo, Jag, Laura, contact me about the Pololo story" Yes, I was trying to pick and choose who I was, at that time, going to tell, but I didn't because I was afraid I'd miss someone. Now do you see a common thread among those names I mentioned? They were the ones that actually posted in that orignial thread with something to say. BUT... maybe they weren't all the names that posted in that thread and I would have felt bad if I'd missed someone important, that had legitimately posted help. Unfortunately, what I did instead was NOT direct it to a few and what I got was exactly what I didn't want... a bunch of looky loos that had never been much interested when it was posted, but now with the words "gory details" <------ again, my mistake for using those words.... it just drew the crowd I was trying to deter - to hear the gossip. Most of the people I mentioned in that list wrote to me, as requested and got their answer. You, instead, decided to be offended, and this thread has gone downhill from there. FYI - I don't guess I'll be posting here any more about this. If Pololo comes back to post his story, then I guess you'll get more of the story.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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Am not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you questioning Mark per se, or those who go to "war zones" to protest. I do have thoughts on this but dont think I want to get into them on this thread.
Laura
quote:Originally posted by jaguar: Matter of fact, I'm still questionning the real objective of Mark being in Israel
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Laura.. As usual, I have mixed thoughts. I didn't quite buy this wall protest thingy. For me, if I want to be a hero, I'd make sure I calculate the consequences and not seek online help through my sophisticated laptop. Was he a sex tourist? Has he got himself involved in this wall thing without the heroic intention? However.. Debbie (I hardly agree with her, yet I am always ready to take her word for things)said you could have met him yourself and seen for yourself the kind of guy he is. So... To be frank, I think (hope I am wrong) this lad unintentionally got himself involved in a so called sacred cause, and enjoyed it. Maybe we have another Ernesto Guevara in our era. Hope I am being mean to apologize.
Posts: 477 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jan 2004
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I thought you were going a different direction with this.
Personally I think that people who go to Palestine to protest, could have spent the money invested in that trip far more wisely. If they want to protest, do it on their homeground. To be honest, the world doesn't seem to care anymore what Israel does. Israel doesn't care who they kill, including "outside interest groups who come to protest".
I would venture to say Mark probably spent several thousand dollars for this trip of his, minimum. For what? Wouldn't that money have gone to better use being sent to some of these people still forced to live in refuge camps? To the widows, orphans, homeless people who suffer daily losses at the hands of the Zionist Jews who are determined to destroy them all?
This whole issue and topic is very close to me as most know since my husband is Palestinian. I think its great that people want to get involved and help but I ask any who do, to truly examine what is the most beneficial to the Palestinians.
Anyways enough from me...
Laura VIVA PALESTINE!
quote:Originally posted by jaguar: Laura.. As usual, I have mixed thoughts. I didn't quite buy this wall protest thingy. For me, if I want to be a hero, I'd make sure I calculate the consequences and not seek online help through my sophisticated laptop. Was he a sex tourist? Has he got himself involved in this wall thing without the heroic intention? However.. Debbie (I hardly agree with her, yet I am always ready to take her word for things)said [b]you could have met him yourself and seen for yourself the kind of guy he is. So... To be frank, I think (hope I am wrong) this lad unintentionally got himself involved in a so called sacred cause, and enjoyed it. Maybe we have another Ernesto Guevara in our era. Hope I am being mean to apologize. [/B]
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: Jaguar, I thought you were going a different direction with this.
Laura.. I would like you to ask your husband a question. How did they manage to kill Yassin and Ranteisy after Fajr prayer. Does he think that Yassin and Ranteisy have been betrayed by their very own people?
quote:Originally posted by jaguar: Matter of fact, I'm still questionning the real objective of Mark being in Israel
I think Pololo is an agent and Debbie is a spy and was just trying to help her spy friend to get him out of trouble by getting a couple of patsies to do the job for her
quote:Originally posted by jaguar: Laura.. I would like you to ask your husband a question. How did they manage to kill Yassin and Ranteisy after Fajr prayer. Does he think that Yassin and Ranteisy have been betrayed by their very own people?
Jaguar.. Can you wait a couple days for the answer? My husband is either out on another one of his "secret missions" or else with one of his other wives...
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Have anyone ever wondered why did she give them additional alcohol to be taken on such important 'rescue' road trip? Do you think this is usual or unusual thing to do? Don't let yourself to be persuaded easily - stay focused on the facts. This is what I observed by reading replies here.
Homesick2, Laura, Jaguar and a few others did not allow to be persuaded by Debbie. She was aiding illegal individual to cross the Egyptian border. She organized everything in attempt to smuggle a person. This is the fact. The person with common sense would not do it. The whole story is simply suspicious. Why would anyone do it for someone whom you don't even know? Two men who were involved were asked to do it. I think they were manipulated. They did job for her.
Debbie already revealed that she was the one who asked two men to assist her. She said they were 'called on'. She also said to 'perform the service' and 'to distract police'. She also said that while they were distracting police 'the more important thing was happening'. This indicates that crossing the board and distraction of police was probably happening at the same time. She referred to this help as 'performed service'- that sounds as if this was some type of the 'job'. Isn't this unusual? You rescue a person with intention to help - you don't say 'I was performing the service'.
Debbie succeeded to persuade Laura and distract her from her leading questions - later in her last reply. In addition she refused to give any further explanations. She has tried to persuade Jaguar by telling him that she would invite him as well- if she had known him. She was simply trying to please both of them, like - hey I know Laura you don't like me but look I would do so many things for you just please close this subject. Debbie's reply was extremely calculated. She wrote the whole page and did not say anything at all. Just going in circles and hoping it will work. Wasn't Debbie the one who started this subject in the first place, so why close it now? Why it was ok to start this subject and now it's not ok to discuss it?
Also, her original post was to give the story only to people who identify themselves. There was some kind of selection going on that did not include everybody. What was the real purpose of that? It seems to me that she just wanted to give the message using this Forum to 'specific' person because she could not contact them directly to communicate. I think she had no intentions to talk about this at all. In fact, I think that she knows how serious is -to publicly admit the crime. Can she be too young or too immature? To rescue illegal individual- I assume she is foreign citizen living in Egypt- is absolutely too risky and highly suspicious. You can't do that in foreign land. You have to respect the law of Egypt. Foreign citizens can not be involved in smuggling illegal people across the border.
Jaguar did not fell for the same tactic. He instead- had remained rational and asked the valid questions. Debbie and Mark are the players. How do you know who Mark is? The person who was not physically present at the time of rescue, which is in this case Debbie - and who knows who else - have manipulated two men to do job for her.. therefore I think that homesick2's theory is actually possible.
Monica's question why Mark was not afraid was so good. It remained unanswered. I think Mark was afraid. I wonder why Debbie was not afraid? She is a woman. Mark is a man. Mark obviously was motivated to illegally cross the Egyptian border because he feared 'somebody' or 'something' in Israel. He had better chances of surviving by crossing the border. The question is what exactly was he doing there? Why he could not cross Egyptian border legally? Why he feared Egyptian authorities as well?
Other two men were motivated by thrill of adventure. If abusing substance such as alcohol or drugs as the original story was pointing out - these types of the people are easy target for manipulation because you can always get them drunk and they are not in clear state of mind when making decisions.
Debbie who was involved in aiding and organizing illegal smuggling admitted herself she is behind it. She is obviously motivated by 'something else'. To risk so much there must exist some reward equal to the amount of risk or higher. The only thing that makes sense taking in consideration that you don't know the person - would be 'money'. If this is not the case, there is a question. Why didn't fear factor play a role? Either, the reward was huge so it was 'worth it', or the person was known to her and it's not a stranger. In fact the person who is very friendly with people and is blending into a group so nicely could be intelligence agent who does everything to convince other parties of 'honest' friendship when in fact it's all just their job - to use them later on, and to get information from them. In my opinion, if the evil would have ugly face, it would be easy to recognize it. In this case, the person who was 'physically' not present but acted out of the shadow is the one manipulating the whole scenario. The alcohol that was given - was given for a reason. The two men who were 'drinking' were naive.
It is absolutely very hard to believe that foreigner would aid illegal entry to a stranger and not fear the Egyptian laws.
[This message has been edited by Jason (edited 05 May 2004).]
Posts: 5 | From: United States | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Sorry, but I think all these conspiracy theories are just BS, not to mention insulting to Debbie and Mark. Like many of you, I've known Debbie on different boards for a while and the idea of her doing it for any other reason than trying to help someone out is ridiculous. I don't know anything about Mark, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was standing up for what he believes in.
All this talk about spies and money is just laughable.
quote:Originally posted by moll: Sorry, but I think all these conspiracy theories are just BS, not to mention insulting to Debbie and Mark. Like many of you, I've known Debbie on different boards for a while and the idea of her doing it for any other reason than trying to help someone out is ridiculous. I don't know anything about Mark, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was standing up for what he believes in.
All this talk about spies and doing it for money is just laughable.
posted
ooooooops sorry, just trying to get used to this board, haven't been here for a while, and if I try to sort it, you'll probably just get it AGAIN. sorry!
Posts: 561 | Registered: May 2002
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