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Originally posted by Shareen:
Lol Luxorlover..
So you know Yousef too?? Hmmmm it doesnt take much imagination to guess what he has been up to...

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Looking forward to it.

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Originally posted by Tally:
Youssef has apparently lost his flat that was built on the west bank near pharoinic village, spent alot of other peoples money on it , now its to be knocked down. However he hasnt told this to his wife in england or the one in usa... need i say more.when there a tourguide from sharm el sheik was having problems and was trying to get her money back, another marriage and another sad story.. think she was no 9 or 10. dont need to say anymore.

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So Yousef has come unstuck??

I warned his English 'wife' last year what he was up to but she decided to forgive him because she loves him !!! Its his Egyptian wife I sympathise with, unless she has been to the same school of acting that he has she is completely unaware and is passed off as his sister if the need arises....If these women choose to contribute to Egypts economy by this method then let them get on with it..If the Tour Guide is the one I am thinking of then she should have known better.

I am sorry he has lost his house...he really worked had at the only job he is qualified to do..none of us have had our backs to the wall to the extent that the Egyptians have and if they want a better standard of living then it could be argued that the end justifies the means..He kept other people in work..ie The builders etc.
Who are we to judge???

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Originally posted by Tally:
Word of warning for anyone going and using a felluca heard alot of bad reports about a boat called gypsey rose and its owner youssef mohammed, best not use it if you are in luxor

and no i dont know this man, just what was told by various persons including the police

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You seem to know an awful lot about this man for someone you dont even know Tally.. if what you are repeating here is hearsay, then maybe it would be better if you didnt say anything. Not that I am defending Yousef, I have known him for a long time now, but I wouldnt repeat hearsay gossip about him.

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originally posted by Tally Youssef has apparently lost his flat that was built on the west bank near pharoinic village, spent alot of other peoples money on it , now its to be knocked down. However he hasnt told this to his wife in england or the one in usa... need i say more.when there a tourguide from sharm el sheik was having problems and was trying to get her money back, another marriage and another sad story.. think she was no 9 or 10. dont need to say anymore.

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Originally posted by Shareen:

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Hear! Hear! Shareen

Please don't encourage tourists to boycott his felluca Tally. He is no different in this way to any other felluca man or Caleche driver. Yousefs customer service skills can not be bettered and he has to earn a living. Next time you are in Luxor go along for a trip on Gypsy Rose, you will be pleasently suprised...and make sure you have a meal...his cooking is excellent.

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Originally posted by neelie:
I am sorry he has lost his house...he really worked had at the only job he is qualified to do..none of us have had our backs to the wall to the extent that the Egyptians have and if they want a better standard of living then it could be argued that the end justifies the means..He kept other people in work..ie The builders etc.
Who are we to judge??? [This message has been edited by neelie (edited 28 June 2004).]

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As for the cheating and the multi marriages - there are more honest ways of making a living than taking part in the "cheap meat" trade as I have heard it described.

If it is the truth, then the warning about this man was a good one. If some women were able to resist his pledges of undying love and managed to remain above it all (and did not enter a marriage or have one night stands with him) then well done. Perhaps the women who lost their money did deserve it, (that is a matter of oninion) but the fact that he apparently took money from so many hardly makes him an honest man whose reputation needs protecting.

If this warning stops even one woman from losing her money and her self-respect then so be it.

I would like to see many more warnings like this. Yes he has to make a living and it is obvious how he has been earning his.

I have had him put in jail three times, I have taken the business away from him and thrown him out - yet he loves me?

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
PS: Girls ----- would you believe it ??? I had a desperate phone call from my ex this morning pledging undying love and devotion and a promise to change and not "sleep with womans" anymore.

I have had him put in jail three times, I have taken the business away from him and thrown him out - yet he loves me?

Did I just see a piggy flying by.

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A pig in Egypt, nah must have been a donkey.

But doesn't it give you something to know he still feels like this about you. After all you were not totally conned because he did care? that part was true

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Originally posted by Carleen:
You know what though? I vacationed in the Fiji Islands, where half those people don't even have *electricity*. They would be thrilled to live in the some of the places I saw in Egypt. Yet even tipping there is considered to be rude - never mind begging tourists for money, and all else that goes on. So I don't buy the economic hardship argument.

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Originally posted by neelie:
aybe you don't buy it because you haven't experienced it. Egyptians (the ones we are disscussing) don't have the where-with-all to go to the Fiji Isles to learn how to behave, The Fijians are unable to raise the fare to go to Egypt. We in the west are lucky to be able to go to most places and compare the differences.
I am not condoning this dishonest behaviour, just asking for people to empathise and not pass judgement.--- A mile in your shoes and all that--- I am sorry if the people who have got caught up in it have been hurt. At least the ones who have lost money can always go home and earn some more,a luxury not extended to the fellahin. and I don't mean that to be as flippant as it sounds.

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I really did not want to post here for simple reasons as 1) I have not been to Egypt and I will never get involved things like that NEVER 2) I do not support promuscuity on both sides, but I do want to speak in defence of Carleen's post. ECONOMIC HARDSHIP IS NOT an EXCUSE and END DOES NOT JUSTIFY the MEANS even if you have to starve in life. and Yes I can talk about that.

Just assuming that Carleen is American and therefore she has not experienced economic hardship in life is very presumptious. She does not have to reveal her personal life details. But most importantly in America success depends on your drive, smarts, and persistance for the most part, it is an expectation in this society. We have plenty of cases of people achieving tremendous success against great odds in life and starting from sctratch with nothing but an idea and a dream.

Do you think a man can simply roll up his sleeves and work instead of using women?

How about women, do they respect themselves for being part of such enterprises?

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Originally posted by katrina:
I really did not want to post here for simple reasons as 1) I have not been to Egypt and I will never get involved things like that NEVER 2) I do not support promuscuity on both sides, but I do want to speak in defence of Carleen's post. ECONOMIC HARDSHIP IS NOT an EXCUSE and END DOES NOT JUSTIFY the MEANS even if you have to starve in life. and Yes I can talk about that.

Just assuming that Carleen is American and therefore she has not experienced economic hardship in life is very presumptious. She does not have to reveal her personal life details. But most importantly in America success depends on your drive, smarts, and persistance for the most part, it is an expectation in this society. We have plenty of cases of people achieving tremendous success against great odds in life and starting from sctratch with nothing but an idea and a dream.

Do you think a man can simply roll up his sleeves and work instead of using women?

How about your women, do you respect yourself being part of such enterprises?

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 29 June 2004).]

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YES! Katrina I really do think a man, or a woman should roll up their sleeeves and work. But there is no work!!! That is what I am trying to say. To have a capitalist society people have to have money to purchase the goods or services that are on offer!!!!
You say you have never been to Egypt. In which case I don't mean to be rude but you really have to see the situation before you can comment. I repeat, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOUR. But I can empathise with the situation that causes it.

There is an old saying that you have to have your socks on before you can pull them up!!! Well very few people in Egypt wear socks !!!!

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Originally posted by neelie:
YES! Katrina I really do think a man, or a woman should roll up their sleeeves and work. But there is no work!!! That is what I am trying to say. To have a capitalist society people have to have money to purchase the goods or services that are on offer!!!!
You say you have never been to Egypt. In which case I don't mean to be rude but you really have to see the situation before you can comment. I repeat, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOUR. But I can empathise with the situation that causes it.

There is an old saying that you have to have your socks on before you can pull them up!!! Well very few people in Egypt wear socks !!!!

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I walked those shoes, wore the socks, had holes in them and pain from walking but my head up high with dignity. I am talking from a practical not theoretical perspective. Besides, no excuse for a man to cry and use women under any circustances and turn himself in the creature that does not deserve any pity. Sorry

There are members of my ex partner's family who would lie down and die before they would sell their bodies to anyone. If they were starving they would not steal. These are the true people of Egypt. I am sorry that you feel that poverty is an excuse for totally dishonesty - but I don't.

This has nothing to do with my own circumstance because I was not stupid enough to lose more than I could afford, but I cannot just go back to England and earn it again like Neelie said. Those days are long gone. I am too sick to do that and so the comment was both stupid and arrogant so I shall ignore it.

My partner had more from me (stolen) than he could have earned in five lifetimes - what good has it done him. Very little. He has lost his God and now considers himself damned to the eternal fires. I split from him two years ago and he is still desperate for me to take him back - because it makes his life easier, not because he cares.

I would do everything I did again - I had always made that quite clear - as my life is richer for having come to Egypt. But, I cannot understand the drive that makes an 18 year old boy sleep with a 78 year old woman (known fact - know the case) instead of working in the fields alongside his father. Is a mobie phone and a pair of new trainers worth selling his soul for.

A man who I know on the West Bank was paying five different boys a day to let him perform oral sex on them. He had a queue round the block. No, poverty is not a good enough excuse and there are too many evil men about who will take advantage of it. The GayEgypt site even catalogues the cafes etc where the boys are known to be 'willing'.

Do you also extend that argument to the inner city boys in London who break into people's homes and steal everything in sight because there is poverty and they cannot get a job ?? Do you think that women in Bradford should stand on street corners because they cannot afford the latest mobile. I am sure you don't.

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Originally posted by neelie:
aybe you don't buy it because you haven't experienced it. Egyptians (the ones we are disscussing) don't have the where-with-all to go to the Fiji Isles to learn how to behave, The Fijians are unable to raise the fare to go to Egypt. We in the west are lucky to be able to go to most places and compare the differences.

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I'm not sure I understand your point. Yes, Fijians don't have the money to vacation in Egypt. That was *my* point, that they are just as poor, if not poorer, than the Egyptians we're talking about, but do not reduce themselves to using tourists to make ends meet.

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Originally posted by Carleen:
I'm not sure I understand your point. Yes, Fijians don't have the money to vacation in Egypt. That was *my* point, that they are just as poor, if not poorer, than the Egyptians we're talking about, but do not reduce themselves to using tourists to make ends meet.

And I don't need to pass judgement against these guys - their god will. But that doesn't mean that I have to patronize their business.

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Sorry Carleen if I did not make myself clear, I will try again.

What I am trying to emphasize is the difference in peopls standards which you made clear are in fact THAT, differences! Can I also say (at the risk of repeating myself) I DO NOT CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOUR.
I am just trying not to judge using Western standards.

It is a completely different thing to the incidents mentioned in the UK beause (assuming we have the right to judge)we can apply Western Standards.

I don't assume the goings on on the West Bank with the peodophile are confined to Luxor and by any standards they are abohorent. I also class a 78yr old woman having sex with a teenager as abohorent with shades of peodophilier thrown in. I would certainly blame her more than him wherever in the world its happening.
What I trying to get across is if there were factories or similiar places for people to work and earn an HONEST living then we could apply different standards when judging.

LOL that even sounds more confusing.

Please don't call me stupid, if you disagree with my point of view, thats fine but I did not dish out personal insults to anyone and don't expect them in return.

I agree with Luxorlover when it comes to a huge age difference, I just hate to see it, and all you want to do is go up to the women and just tell them...... wake up! But they wouldnt listen, they dont want to listen.

And I really cannot condemn any of them for wanting a better life for themselves, I just wish they could do it more honestly.

For those of you who dont understand how women get caught up in these relationships, you obviously havent been there. Only when you have, can you begin to understand, and only then can you become judge and jury.

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Originally posted by neelie:
Please don't call me stupid, if you disagree with my point of view, thats fine but I did not dish out personal insults to anyone and don't expect them in return.

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Umm, the thought never crossed my mind. I don't know why you thought it would.

But doesn't it give you something to know he still feels like this about you. After all you were not totally conned because he did care? that part was true

Jane, you must be joking! Do you really buy that he cares? I think LL is more on target with the thoughts that he just wants his life to be easier and he'll say damn near anything to try to make that happen. Please tell me you were joking!

For those of you who dont understand how women get caught up in these relationships, you obviously havent been there. Only when you have, can you begin to understand, and only then can you become judge and jury.
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And even then we don't need to judge, we just need to accept that everyone makes mistakes in life and that is how we grow as people and become wiser. If we all lived a perfect life and got everything right 100% then I think we did not really live.
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Posted by neelie:-

Striving for courage to change the things I can, serenity to accept the things I can't and wisdom to know the difference.

My ex is trying to get a toe back in the door because he knows that I am far from broke and that if he had played it better then he would eventually have been a 'rich' man in Egyptian terms. His dishonesty got him a villa. His dishonesty lost him everything else. It is the same for most of these men. What they do is not because of poverty entirely (for those who have travelled will know that Egypt is far from the poorest country in Africa) a lot of it is to do with greed. To accept what one woman gives you has some dignity to it; to then add another ten is quite different.

I was the one who used the word stupid. (If it offended then I will choose another word). It was in answer to the suggestion that it was easy to replace the money that has been lost. One of my friends has lost £250,000 sterling. That takes some earning back !!!

I cannot earn back the money I lost. But, fortunately money never had that much importance to me. (by the way I worked for every penny I had and none of it came from my husband).

She had been married to the man for five years and they were in business together. Then the profits stoped coming in. When she checked on everything most of it had disappeared and everything that she thought was theirs turned out to be his. She proved through the court that she had paid for it all and won her case but she accepted a promise of restitution rather than going for retribution. He has given her nothing and it will take her another five years to chase him for it. I think that she has to accept that the money has gone.

I have another friend who has lost £100,000 (sterling). Again she was with her husband for several years before she got in really deep. She sold her house in England and bought a couple of flats in Luxor, plus a bazaar, etc. End of story. He has everything she has nothing. She now lives in a council flat in England that she cannot afford to furnish. Her 'husband' has now gone back to his Egyptian wife and children. They will have a good life that most in England can only dream about. She is starting a court case against him but I think she has very little chance of getting anything back.

That is hardly the same as a 'felucca' boy getting a few extra pounds out of someone for good cooking and services rendered but what he can make out of ten women adds up to a small fortune. He will still work as a felucca boy - but he will no longer be a poor one.

"The women were stupid - yes. But, it takes a particular mentally and a particularly callous man to rob a woman of everything she has including her dignity and then just move on to the next one."

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:

it takes a particular mentally and a particularly callous man to rob a woman of everything she has including her dignity and then just move on to the next one.

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a leech and a parasite

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Originally posted by Shareen:
I too have a friend who lost a substantial amount of money. She gave it willingly to provide a home for herself and her husband. Now she has neither. If he had been good to her, he could have had it all, she loved him without question, but whatever she had was never enough for him.
To this day, she still tells me... all he had to do was treat me with respect and he could have had the life he always wanted.

"The women were stupid - yes. But, it takes a particular mentally and a particularly callous man to rob a woman of everything she has including her dignity and then just move on to the next one."

So true..... and there are way too many of these type of men around.

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Funnily enough I was talking with my brother in law about this very subject last night. He was actually married to a Westerner but sadly she died of cancer. His family don't know about her but he likes to talk about her, she meant a lot to him so he told me about her a long time ago.

I was asking him why did boys (he is considerably younger than my husband) get involved in Western women. Was it a visa, sex or money? He said it wasn't a visa because even if you were married you didn't always get one. And people didn't want to leav Egypt. Maybe a few really young boys but mostly they wanted to stay here. They wanted money because there was no other way of getting on. To have a bit of money from a Western women meant suddenly you could hve a good life. He told me stories of friends of his that had married a Western and got money of them. Some had used it to send sublings to school and grduate. Others for health care. Some just for food or putting electricity in the home.

What did he think of men that then dumped them. He thought this was really bad because if Allah gave you a gift like this them you should treat the woman well. She was from Allah. He seemed to know of many families where there was a Western wife of long standing (often with an Egytian co-wife).

He also mentioned there were different kinds of Western women people like me who were good women(thank heavens for that I wold hate to be in the other categories). He said how my daughter and I had come to there home many years ago before I married Mahmoud and how nice we had been to them and how much they liked us. Then he said there were the 'disco women' who come to drink and party and then the 'lonely women' who want a man and are prepared to pay.

But sadly he also knew of many men that treated women badly. He told of a story where a friend of his was introduced to a woman friend of his wifes. They started a relationship and subsequently when she was coming over again he asked if she was bringing money. She told her friend who spoke to my brother in law. He was asked to intervene but said it was not his business. I found this attitude interesting it would seem that they do not feel any responsiblity it is purely between the man and woman.

But this is where it comes down to the Western woman. She did come out with the money. And still does !!!!!! He tells her how much to bring and if she hasn't got it he tells her not to bother coming as he is only interested in her money. He is completely upfront about it and she accepts it.

He was also telling me of many relationships between really young boys late teens/early twenties and women of 70/80. These boys are quite happy to do anything for what they can get. Also gays. Apparently he will not go to the disco alone because if he does all the gay men approach him. He only goes when he has tourists and they want to go. Many boys again will go with gays for money. He found that bad and again got religious about it saying it was against Allah.

It was a very illuminating conversation.

Sounds to me your brother in Law tells it like it is and gives an honest appraisal of what is happening. So sad that he lost his English wife but I feel sure her life was enriched by the time she had with him.
It is interesting how the Egyptians will not intervine in any of these situations, where probably we would, but this is something I am comming to respect and understand. I believe it comes from the Koran?

Is it me or does Egypt have an effect ( or is it affect) on your spelling after being here a while??

Yes he did take money from this lady, though not a lot. Certainly not enough for mobile phones, houses and cars like some do.

I do beleive what he had to say because he is not the only person I have heard stories like this from. Many of Mahmoud's friends also have the same or similar stories. And quite a few of them have foreign wives who I have met. However this was the first time I was able to chat about the motives behind their actions.

I have talked to many men about it - men of all ages - about their wives and their male lovers. Researching is hard work but interesting. I spent a few evenings alone on the Corniche talking at length to the boys there about how they make a living. How they got into the 'business', their worst situations - nightmares etc.

Like Jane said it is very illuminating. It was a world until then that I had no idea existed. Some had started working on the feluccas at around 9 years old - with all the temptations that went with it. I wanted to cry.

Some of the stories he has told me have horrified me. Especially ones where he has said No and lost out on food for the family. My mother in law has only 4 living children but has been pregnant about 10 times as far as I can gather. Several of her children died after the 97 massacre as Mahmoud then 20 couldn't earn enough to feed all the family. His father had walked out some time previously and Mahmoud was the only bread winner. I remember when he proposed to me and said I could have everything his family had but sometimes that was only tea and bread.

It breaks your heart when you hear some of these stories and they are not all made up for tourist consumption.

The other day my mother in law was telling me about her children, The ones that lived and died. She often talks about how special Mahmoud is to her because he has looked after them.

It is a lot about why I love him, his maturity forced upon him from such an early age.

But ladies beware much as these stories tug at your heart strings still make sure that the story teller is an honest man and has not been corrupted by this early life.

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Originally posted by Shareen:
I know personally one young felucca man.... who 3 years ago could not speak a word of english. He is a real sweetheart, but is already going down the path of wanting a "foreign" wife. His english is extremely good now, the bullshit is off pat, and he wants the good life he sees his peers getting. The "foreign" wife is the way to that life. But he has also told me that he wants a "foreign" wife, not only because his and his families lives will improve, but also because a foreigner will love him in a way which egyptian women wont do. He sees it as a sharing relationship rather than an egyptian wife who, in his words..."want to get married because they want a husband, and have babies quickly so that they dont have to do fun anymore and then they can be a married woman and get fat"
Lol, says it all I guess
I have talked to him about this, but he is adamant, he wants to marry a foreigner for love as well as a good life.

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Originally posted by Carleen:
That I can respect, as well as understand. If you're so inclined, I see nothing wrong with helping to give a man a better life, as long as you're getting what you need in return. But when the guy is on his eighth, ninth wife... Sorry, but that's just scuzzy.

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Agreed

Some really sad stories have appeared and I just wish that before visitng Egypt people would visit this board. At least they would have an idea what they were in for. Perhaps it should be advertised in travel agents!!

One thing is puzzles me (and I am not disputing anyones word here) is what is happening ultimately to the money? I know a lot, if not most is wasted at source but one would think that ultimately such vast amounts would affect the economy to a certain extent in such a small place as Luxor.

I think the whole situation is sad, both on the part of the men, and also the women who get involved with them and happy to hear that a few have a happy ending.

Then there are also those that will have lent lots of money to various friends and relatives (brothers) to buld flats and furnish them.

It does all help the economy and if they took money from one woman and made her relatively happy there would be no problem. It is when they are taking from several women, all of whom have no idea of the presence of the others, that problems start.

I know the name of one felucca that has been 'sold' 25 times in the last three years for around £3,000 a time to various European men and women - but it has not actually changed hands once. I believe that somewhere in the region of £75,000 sterling has been involved for just the one boat. The boys say "If I had a felucca I would not have to live this kind of life." (or words to that effect). Their wives/lovers then agree to buy them a boat. The actual owner allows someone to pose as him in the 'sale'for a cut in the proceeds, papers are drawn up (fictional), and everyone goes away 'happy'. Some of these scams are very well organised.

Right LL. I am truly sorry that all this has been done at your expense. I have just read your post on another topic and may I suggest a drawing pin regarding the 50 piaste note! Also I would like to be a member of the eviction party... Is possession 9 points of the law in Luxor?

I have a nephew who has is going to Uni to study acting. I may suggest to my brother he will learn more if he sends him to Luxor!!

Having said all this I can still understand and can empathise with the desire for these men/boys to wanting to better their living standards. Until they start getting educated and learning to earn a living in different ways and while Western women remain nieve to the situation its not going to change execpt to get worse.

Shareen: That is exactly what I meant. So many women think that their man owns a boat that they have paid for when in actualy fact it was a total scam. Yes men do sell boats to themselves, but more often they just 'borrow' the boat from the proper owner when necessary.