My family saw it as benefit to all and so it has proved. I am happy, my daughter is happy, my husband is happy, my co-wife is happy, my step daughter (bless her only 13 months) is happy, my mother in law is happy, my brother in law, father in law, uncles, cousins, distant relatives, my dead dog, the goldfish of my late doctor etc etc etc etc

Other people are not happy in the same situation, and your point is???????????????

How does one 'turn' gay?

quote:

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Originally posted by Haqikah:
Sirena do you think allowing western men to legally have more than one wife will lower the divorce rate? The ones that come here to accept it are the same type that will 'cheat' with a married man knowingly or not. Most Orfi marriages are secret. The Egyptian wife can get a divorce if she does not was a second wife. The purpose for second wife was for widows and other types to have support, it has been abused. It was not intended for men to have a woman to support them or multiple sex partners. So Egyptian women do not have to accept it. The Egyptian husband is not paying mahr muqaddim (advance bride payment) for the western woman in most cases. The western woman is marrying for sex and not support, most have shown to be self-supporting. Would these women date a married man in their country?

Since 1979 a wife can demand a divorce if a husband takes a second wife, and she can also receive mahr mu’akhkhar, child support and housing, which is why most of these men will keep the orfi wife a secret.

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I the case of orfi, I would have to agree with you (I am not well versed in this subject, so you would need to forgive my ignorance).
I was referring to the practice of legally having more than one wife.
I don't know if this would lower a divorce rate in any country but it seems to be an opening for an interesting discussion.

The divorce rate in the US and UK (for example) isn't a result of cheating (that has been going on for ages) but more due to the strength of the rights women have in these countries and the social perception of the concept of divorce.

Instead of blaming the women who 'marry' your men maybe more energy should be spent in a pro-active stance concerning increasing your own level of women's rights and emancipation in Egypt.

It is to generalize to say that western women marry for sex, I don't believe that this is the case.It is safe to say that western women can get sex in their own countries---and without hassles.

Marry for sex??? Why on Earth? Why buy and feed a cow when we can find all sorts of milk products on the market in ALL shapes, colors, flavors, and YES, sizes!

I hereby propose a petition for women's right to have more than one husband. Girls, can you imagine the variety of pleasure and all the cash flowing to us from our supportive husbands??? Damn, it is Heaven. And who will need gigolos then.

But I honestly do not believe these men would have so many orfi marriages if casual sex was legal. Since so many western women seem to have no problem with casual sex. It is usually the men that are deceiving both women by making the foreigners think they have a legitimate marriage.

quote:

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Originally posted by frances:
jane has your hausband have another wife?

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Yes I have posted about this at length in the bigamy thread.

of the successful western/egyptian marriages that I know those that have a big age gap have a second wife and those that have similar ages don't

I am aware of quite a few marriages where there is an age gap and the Western wife thinks she is the only one. She isn't of course and there is an Egyptian wife who has the children.

The Egyptian wives that I know are quite happy with this arrangement, often their fathers had more than one wife so it is no big deal. Sometimes the relationship between wives is incredible close, like sisters. It is nice when it works like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Haqikah:
Hi Serena
I belong to several women's rights group, there are several in Egypt and we have come a long ways and still have yet further to go. What you don't understand is that it is illegal to have casual sex in Egypt, it is a crime, punishable by imprisonment. It does not help our case when foreigners participate in these secret orfi marriages (that the 'men' use for sex). Its better for all women if the Egyptian women and foreign women work together and not against eachother. Knowingly or not the foreign women are contributing to marriage problems in this sense. It is not easy as in the west to get a divorce. It sometimes takes several years, and hard to prove the husband had a secret affair if the woman is in a foreign country.

But I honestly do not believe these men would have so many orfi marriages if casual sex was legal. Since so many western women seem to have no problem with casual sex. It is usually the men that are deceiving both women by making the foreigners think they have a legitimate marriage.

So our hope is that the foreign women will not work against our cause and become more educated on orfi marriages and take their time. I have read too many posts about women bragging on "willies", it's really pathetic. Do not take this as a personal attack on you, as I don't recall you making such statements. But this is not lady like character. I know many will argue that this behavior is acceptable in their country, but it is looked down upon in Egypt. Women's rights here is not about sexual freedom for women, we still wish to maintain high moral conduct for both men and women.

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Dear Haqikah

I would be interested to hear more about the womens' rights groups that you speak about.
It is also so refreshing that you see womens' rights in terms of high moral conduct and not sexual freedom. I promise you there are many many Western women that would support this and have equally high morals. Please do not view us all by some of the stupid stuff that gets posted on this forum, yes some of it is pathetic and degrading. If you see any way forward to join with Western women in your campaigns then I think you would find support from some of us here.

Penny

quote:

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Originally posted by Haqikah:
Hi Serena
I belong to several women's rights group, there are several in Egypt and we have come a long ways and still have yet further to go. What you don't understand is that it is illegal to have casual sex in Egypt, it is a crime, punishable by imprisonment. It does not help our case when foreigners participate in these secret orfi marriages (that the 'men' use for sex). Its better for all women if the Egyptian women and foreign women work together and not against eachother. Knowingly or not the foreign women are contributing to marriage problems in this sense. It is not easy as in the west to get a divorce. It sometimes takes several years, and hard to prove the husband had a secret affair if the woman is in a foreign country.

But I honestly do not believe these men would have so many orfi marriages if casual sex was legal. Since so many western women seem to have no problem with casual sex. It is usually the men that are deceiving both women by making the foreigners think they have a legitimate marriage.

So our hope is that the foreign women will not work against our cause and become more educated on orfi marriages and take their time. I have read too many posts about women bragging on "willies", it's really pathetic. Do not take this as a personal attack on you, as I don't recall you making such statements. But this is not lady like character. I know many will argue that this behavior is acceptable in their country, but it is looked down upon in Egypt. Women's rights here is not about sexual freedom for women, we still wish to maintain high moral conduct for both men and women.

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Personally i would love to more educated about the forms of marriage in Egpyt. I found a critic of the personal Status laws from The Egyptian Centre fo Womens Rights

to quote
- Yet, the current legislator made the same mistake that was made 59 years ago in the 1931 regulation (which has been cancelled). The legislation rendered the issue of the Orfi marriage so obscure to the extent that nobody can tell whether this text recognizes the Orfi marriage as a fully constructed marriage or somehow denies it.
- This kind of marriage, the Orfi one, has spread in our society for certain reasons. The legislator should have protected the rights of all parties and made all marriage lawsuits equal to each other without exception.
- The legislator could have converted the Orfi marriage to a civil marriage and given it the allowance to be documented before the concerned civil authorities and not before the Maazoun. Later, the civil marriage could be announced in the newspapers to make it public. If this was the case, Orfi marriage would have been granted enough legal protection to safeguard the legal and the financial rights of the woman, as long as the Islamic Sharia’ has approved this marriage, provided that all conditions and factors are legally satisfied.
- With this kind of text, the legislator stops the manipulation and the abuse of the marriage by some badly intentioned people.
- The logic, adopted by the legislator in this law, was to close the current cases and open a state of mercy to the badly treated women from such kind of marriage, is truly naïve and short-sighted. Then, either women are entitled to have a good marriage that would safeguard their rights and their dignity, with all the legal and religious conditions satisfied, and in this case it is not important which kind of paper is used to document it, or it is nothing but a vast explicit adulatory that should have no legal implication whatsoever.

I totally agree. I can find nothing that actually describes the differences between orfi and normal Egyptian marriage. We all know about marriage in Cairo takes days and is major hassle and horrendous. But what about polygamous marriage. Do the Embassys do that. Some say yes some no.

Why oh why does Egpyt have so many categories of marriage and why is there so little information and why do they make foreign marriage sooooooooo difficult.

I also agree that many women here would love to support you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chrisderfer:
I still don't understand why Muslim women think it acceptable for Muslim men to have more wives...My own opinion is that it's disgusting. It made sense in the beginning -- to strengthen the Muslim faith and its population in its early days -- but now how many Muslim men have a true desire for taking care of and loving other women? If you take away the dowry and the sex, I think most Muslim men would stay with one wife...or turn gay. I would never want my man to go f**k other people and then come back and do the same.

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I suspect I know much more about my co-wife and what she thinks and feels and her about me because of my daughter. My daughter is bilingual and spends a lot of her time round at the family house playing with her baby sister and being with the family there. She sleeps over a lot as well, sleeping on the roof with them. She is very mature and able to understand and communicate some pretty adult concepts.

She was my original translator when my co-wife and I got some time one on one with each other with out my husband around. He had told me and her things and I wanted to check out what she really felt about the situation.

My co-wife was surprised I asked, she said it is the life here and normal. Actually she prefers me as a second wife as for some reason she is not jealous of me. She knows I respect and love Arab culture which is demonstrated by my daughter who even after her Arab father died I have brought up speaking Arabic and in touch with her roots. She told me she wanted to be friends and is teaching her children to call me Mama Jane. She has asked me to help her improve her English and to help make sure her children grow up speaking English. She sees me as asset to the family. No, not just financial aspect but lots of other things.

For example she wanted to have a birthday party for her daughter. They have never had one in the family. So rather than ask my husband and have him turn her down because Egyptians don't do this she told me and I asked him and arranged it. I cooked a cake and got birthday stuff from the UK to decorate etc.

She also wanted to have a gap between children and got me to tell Mahmoud how you get healthier babies when there is a bigger gap between them.

So she and I conspire together, generally in order to get her things that would not normally be acceptable if an Egyptian wife asked but coming from me it is OK.

My daughter also gets quizzed by both of us about what the other thinks about certain subjects. A big on is FGM my co-wife wanted to know if I had been done and whether my daughter had been done. I said no and that actually it was against Islam and only done in Africa. She knew this as she is the best educated in the family having actually graduated. She doesn’t want her daughter done and is grateful that I am supporting her on this and trying to get my husband to agree not to have her daughter done.

Regarding feeling jealous or conscious of each others physical relationship. It just doesn’t happen. Don’t ask me why but I don’t feel anything has been taken from me and shared with someone else. I get what I want and she gets what she wants and being as we haven’t been joined by a third I guess my husband is getting what he wants. I really don’t feel like I am just a wife but more a member of the family. We all work together, my co-wife will cook meals for our tourists so we can make them feel welcome, my brother in law will take them on donkeys, and my uncle in law has a taxi. Everyone is part of the unit rather than being separate, they treat each others homes as there own home. She comes to my house and spends time with me I go to her house. I have been taken to meet her mother and father at their insistence. They wanted to make me a meal. My daughter jokes with me saying you are my favourite mummy because she feels she has more than one. My co wife is as much a mother to her as I am. I have had to go to the UK on business and I have confidently left my daughter in the care of my co-wife.

I guess I am very, very lucky but this also has a lot to do with my husband. Some times my co-wife and I are like mirrors when we talk about him. Exactly the same qualities are apparent to both of us. His honesty, reliability and how safe we feel. One time I took some tourists round and they gave her a present and me some baksheesh for the guiding I had done. We both told each other to keep it for ourselves and not tell Mahmoud. We both confessed that the first thing we had done was give it to him because we can’t deceive him, we laughed so much. We both know that if ever we want money we only have to ask and he gives it to us. We both respect him tremendously and are proud of him for the man he is in the community and the man he is to us and the rest of the family. We feel that because of his qualities he has ended up with this situation. With two wives loving him and being happy, he got it because he deserved it. His friends feel the same. That because he has been honest and open he has two happy women.

So I am sure some Egyptian wives are unhappy with their husbands Western wife but Thanks be to God this hasn’t happened with us.

The way to help is to not get involved in ‘secret’ Orfi marriages, secrecy is the key word. Orfi marriage give the women no rights to alimony or child support because it is not registered with the courts. Not to mention the shame it causes the woman if she is abandoned. Traditionally it has been used for young people to engage in sex with no long term commitment, now its being used against foreigners. Even today some prostitutes use it so that if they are ever caught, they can have an escape route. You don’t even need an attorney for it, as the legal form can be picked up in bookshops. It is legal in the sense, that you can have sex with it, but unrecognized by the courts since it is not registered.

Polygamy is legal for up to 4 wives, but the laws require that the other wife must agree to
A second wife or be granted a divorce if she does not approve and show harm. Which is why some of these men do it in secret, as they do not want to face the consequences of paying alimony and child support if a divorce arises. Please keep in mind that this is only practiced by only 4% of the entire Egyptian population, It is not the ‘norm’ as some of you may think. The first wife is very protective of her husband. But nevertheless, all of the women’s groups in Egypt are working to have this practice abolished as it has been abused by too many men. These groups have worked to have a new contract in marriages approved, which can stipulate prior to marriage, that the 1st wife forbids the husband from taking on anymore wives. Again ‘secret’ Orfi marriages are a way for sly men to get around this.

Our biggest most important concern for women’s rights is to protect them from the forever present forms of physical spousal abuses, prevalent in this society, and hopefully all of you can help.

Women’s rights can increase if our foreign sisters become a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

...there is aya in the quraan that says if muslims dont know how to live one from another religion will come and show them how to be muslims...

quote:

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Originally posted by lotusflower:
How exactly is the thinking of an Egyptian man with a foreign wife. What exactly is he telling his family - and why is a foreign wife so acceptable to the family. Is it the belief of the family that the "saviour" has come with "wads of cash" to take them out of their poverty.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:
Jane, it was really gracious of you to share all that with this board - I've always admired your openness. I've had a couple of burning questions I wanted to ask you, but you usually refer people with questions to the treehouse, and understandbly so. Do you mind me asking those questions here, or can I e-mail you?? I've had the hardest time trying to sign-up at the treehouse's host site.

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you can ask here, start a new thread so I spot it.

quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:
you can ask here, start a new thread so I spot it.

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Well, I'd really rather not start a new thread, b/c if it started a flame-war I'd feel terrible. That's not at all what I'm trying to do.

I became very intrigued by your marriage when I read you were a Christian. You're from the West *and* not a Muslim, yet you're very happy as a co-wife. How did you reconcile yourself with marriage as the Bible describes it versus your situation? What were your thoughts when your husband even initially asked you to marry him?? And I read once that your husband said he wanted you to convert because he wants you to be in paradise with him. That was sweet, but it gave me the impression that he thinks you *won't* be in heaven as a Christian. Does he accept your religion as being as valid as his? Do you ever discuss Christianity with him?

And lastly, from what I've read about Islam and polygamy (just from this forum), it is only acceptable in certain situations. I was wondering under which category your marriage fell? Because you've been widowed??

Again, I truly respect you for being willing to discuss this. I would totally understand if you didn't want to answer any of it, or if you'd prefer, feel free to e-mail me directly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:
Well, I'd really rather not start a new thread, b/c if it started a flame-war I'd feel terrible. That's not at all what I'm trying to do.

I became very intrigued by your marriage when I read you were a Christian. You're from the West *and* not a Muslim, yet you're very happy as a co-wife. How did you reconcile yourself with marriage as the Bible describes it versus your situation? What were your thoughts when your husband even initially asked you to marry him?? And I read once that your husband said he wanted you to convert because he wants you to be in paradise with him. That was sweet, but it gave me the impression that he thinks you *won't* be in heaven as a Christian. Does he accept your religion as being as valid as his? Do you ever discuss Christianity with him?

And lastly, from what I've read about Islam and polygamy (just from this forum), it is only acceptable in certain situations. I was wondering under which category your marriage fell? Because you've been widowed??

Again, I truly respect you for being willing to discuss this. I would totally understand if you didn't want to answer any of it, or if you'd prefer, feel free to e-mail me directly.

[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 14 July 2004).]

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My religious background is a bit weird because I was a member of a Christian cult for 7 years and since leaving it I have not really sorted out what I believe in.

The cult was so black and white about was and was not acceptable and yet other groups are equally black and white and believe different things.

For example the same verse in the Bible is used to prove different things. An elder should be the husband of one wife. Well have heard that used to justify polygamy amongst non elders. So I don't know what is right and wrong any more. So I reconciled my marriage as I wasn’t marrying more than one husband so that was alright. I might be right I might be wrong. I guess I will find out.

Yes he doesn’t think I will go to paradise but he does accept my religion as valid because he knows I go to church and have a religious background. I haven’t told him about the cult because I have no idea how to explain that to him. I have read him things out of the Bible. The wife of noble character; when I was telling him what kind of wife I wanted to be to him.

We have also talked a lot about modern Christianity not obeying the Bible gay priests being an obvious one. A lot of things the Bible teaches, people have left behind like respectable dress, submission to husbands, a wife has to respect her husband and they are in Islam but haven’t been left behind. So there are a lot of similarities between what the Bible teaches for every day living and marital relationships and what the Koran teaches. It is just that Muslims still do it.

I am very much at a crossroads because I find something’s about Islam very appealing. I feel that it hasn’t changed with the passage of time like Christianity has is a good thing.

I think the definition of male and female roles and that people still keep to them is a good thing.

I think accepting that men have desires and giving them an outlet that doesn’t destroy the family unit is a good thing

I think the way God is constantly acknowledge in everyday life is a good thing

But I still like a glass of wine and a bacon butty.

I am reading the Koran in English and trying to understand it better. If I get convinced then I will become a Muslim but who knows what will happen.

As to whether my marriage is correct islamically I left that in my husband’s hands, after all he is the Muslim not me Yes I was a widow and my child does fit the ‘looking after orphans’ bit of the Koran. So I suspect that my marriage is probably much more correct than most second marriages. But like I say that is not my business it is Mahmoud’s and I trust him to do the right thing. . I do know that he tries to be a good Muslim with regard to me and my daughter. He is putting money in her name at the suggestion of a friend whose father is an Imam.

And then you end with the most disgusting thing that you still like pork and bacon, are you making a mockery out of our religion? It is not something for you to choose the parts you think are okay, and dismiss the parts that are not.

I was beginning to feel good that you were blessed to be in a good situation for your orphan child, and then you say things like this that look rather suspect.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Natashiah

I am interested to know more about this verse that you are referring to as I haven't heard that one.

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There different schools of thought in Islam....but at the end of the day it all these schools of thought comes to the same conclusions.Im not saying that we have different mosques I am saying that we have different ways of interpreting verses.You must have heard about Ganafi,Shafi etc. its the same religion just different interpretations but the believes are exactly the same...The 5 pilars of Islam stays the same 1-To believe that there is only one Allah and that Nabi(prophet) Mohammed (peace be upon him) is his messenger 2-To make salaah 3-To give zakaah 4-To fast in ramadan 5-To go for hajj if you have the means to do so.Those are the foundations...but Islam is a way of life and there are a lot more to a Muslim then the 5 pillars.Its how you treat your neighbours,your family etc....its a way of life.The beauty of it all is that other people should see by the way you live your life,what a good muslim you are...not how good you tell them you are.

If I am very honest I will say yes I do take what is best from your culture and combine it with what is best from my own and it is true if it all went wrong I could walk away and go back to my own country. I could never accept to live in a polygamous marriage it could never work for me, that is an example of combining the best from each culture. In any case it would not be acceptable to my husband either. I also live as closely as possible by muslim codes of conduct but no I am not muslim because I am not yet ready to make that final step. Not eating pork is no problem I am vegetarian, giving up alchohol meant nothing when I realised I felt so much better for it. But I know those are not the right reasons for my actions. However I see becoming a muslim as a long journey and it is a good step to do the easy bits first and then concentrate on the harder deeper things.

What is so clear from all you write is a desperate need for an improvement in women's rights in Egypt. We as westerners that have our rights...and they were long and hard fought for... are not the enemy. We are guilty of not understanding because we never have and never will be in a situation to live your lives...we have come too far.

We can all learn from each other and surely taking the best from each others culture is a good thing and untilmately a step in the right direction to make the world a better place.

Just a couple of comments on your post as we gave discussed polygyny many times on this board, so I don’t want to repeat all that has already been said, but I would question the accuracy of the translations of some of the Qur’anic verses you quoted and would also say that although your interpretation of the meaning of the verses is one among many, it is not the only one. There are other interpretations, based on the practice of the Prophet and Companions, which are described in the Hadith that show another interpretation of the verses.

It was good that you highlighted some of the areas that are causing problems for women here in Egypt as many people may not have heard them before, but most of those things you listed are not limited to Egyptian women, many of them are problems experienced by Muslim women or women in general all over the world. Some of them occur when people abuse the rights given to them by Islam and they interpret them in such a way as to assist them in meeting their own selfish needs, forgetting that marriage should be based on affection and mercy. Some of them are due to long term cultural practices and attitudes that are prevalent here in Egypt, and others have to due to human nature that has nothing to do with Islam, Muslims, or Egypt.

However there is also another side to the picture that you painted and there are many polygynous relationships that are successful, where the parties do treat each other with respect and kindness and it does work for them. The fact that some men, and also some women, abuse polygyny does not make it wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Haqikah:
A quote from Akshar “I think the definition of male and female roles and that people still keep to them is a good thing.
I think accepting that men have desires and giving them an outlet that doesn’t destroy the family unit is a good thing”
I’m sorry but it is this type of thing to come from the mouth of a foreigner that truly angers many Egyptian women. It’s like you take our lives as some type of experiment that if all goes wrong you can pick up the pieces and go back to your own country. That is not the case for millions of Egyptian women with no where else to turn. We cry when no one else is looking. To paint the picture that all are happy in their roles is most misleading, especially coming from one who is not us.
Do you have any idea of the hundreds of fights co-wives have with each other? Do you have any ideas that the husband may come in beat them all, and go to the room with his other wife, and slam the doors in their faces. Do you have any idea of the jealousy of one who only birthed daughters have towards the one that birthed sons? Do you have any idea of the competition to be the favorite wife? Have you experienced FGM to know the pains of sex to please his lusts? Do you understand the damage of multiple children from multiple wives and how this does nothing to curb poverty? Do you understand the anxiety from women knowing that the husband can say Talaq 3 times and leave them all to marry a 16 year old virgin? The tears are enough to fill an ocean. But people like you and your rosey painted lifestyle that you have accepted is not the true reality! Allah did not intend to give men an outlet for their desires, else he would have created 5 Eves for Adam. This has been abused! Desire for another woman is adultery! To take on another wife and orphans in the past has been a ‘duty’ not a ‘desire’!!
The only verse of the Qur’an that deals with polygamy is this:
Surah 4:3
“ If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - you may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be marry only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship. “
Surah 4:129
“You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else).”
Surah 3:125
“Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."
4:124
"As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice"
The Qur’an is the one and only religious book that specifically ‘resrticts’ a man to ‘one’ wife, unless the others are mothers of orphans, and only when taking on such responsibility will not cause undue hardship to the first wife. And as you can see male and female roles are equal in the eyes of Allah according to the Prophet (PBUH).

And then you end with the most disgusting thing that you still like pork and bacon, are you making a mockery out of our religion? It is not something for you to choose the parts you think are okay, and dismiss the parts that are not.

I was beginning to feel good that you were blessed to be in a good situation for your orphan child, and then you say things like this that look rather suspect.

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Dear Haqikah,
With the utmost respect towards you. I understand your perspective and the huge job you are trying to do for the woman of Egypt, I am not Egyptain, will never come back to Egypt, and do believe the woman of Egypt need a voice like yours to try and change certain laws regarding the rights of woman.
To come to Janes defense, Jane was asked a very personal question about her life, which she chose to share on this thread. I think you have taken what Jane said out of context. Jane was explaining how her married life works for her, she was not advocating it for anyone else. By no strecth of the imagination was she insulting Islam, because she still enjoys things that are not allowed in Islam. I believe that was an unfair statement. When the time is right in her heart, she will choose what she believes is the right thing to do.

My heart is breaking for all of those woman, please carry on with your good work, they need a voice.
Dreamcatcher

It is strange to me that you should have such a reaction to someone who was openly exploring your religion. Do you think you attracted me more to Islam or repelled me.
Do you think your post was encouraging or dismissive.

If you want to educate someone do you think attacking them is the best way.

also i said about roles not equality when talking about male and females. The fact that both roles are equal is my point exactly. Instead of trying to be a man, in Islam women can have equality in a purely female role. You didn't actually listen(read) what I said. Just decided to attack

Sometimes I despair of the Egyptians on this board who portray themselves so harshly and judgementally. You guys have got to realise for everyone posting her there many many others who read. It scares people of when you react like this. That is what is giving Islam such a negative image all over the world.

Dirk: the cult was the International Churches of Christ

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Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor

Penny and dreamcatcher there is no need to defend Akshar, as the lady tried to discuss this with her by private e-mail, so she opened herself to public critique by responding in a public forum. I was in no way attacking her personal life, for it is not for me to judge or to live. I was only responding to 2 quotes, which can mislead some people about Islam-specifically about people keeping to male and female roles and about an 'outlet' for men's desires. I only wanted to correct that polygamy is not an 'outlet' for 'desire', nothing can be further from the truth. And females have not achieved their equality in society, so changes must occur.

It may be good for some people that she displays her own personal life of happiness, but I would not want this to be viewed as the norm, this is more the exception. Too many westerners get the idea that this is a widespread practice in Egypt, which it is not. 96% of Egyptians practice monogamy, so that is the norm. As the many female support groups want the abuse to cease, it is not wise for anyone to advocate for polygamy because it benefited them in a rare occasion.

I am happy for Akshar and her family, as they are happy, but in most cases, the first wife will be extremely hurt. Maybe she feels lets threatened by the age difference, as most abusers of polygamy usually take on a much younger (16 years of age) second wife- to please his desires. And that is abusive, her Mahmoud sound extremely different in this case. It sounds as though she was fortunate to marry a man of rarity.

The main things to remember when polygamy is concerned is
a. It must alleviate pain and suffering and not cause pain and suffering
b.If you have a young fertile family, its almost ertain that polygamy is abuse.
c.Polygamy to substitute for a younger wife is certainly an abuse of the laws of Allah.

And Newcomer again, remember the first wife of the Prophet(PBUH) and how he never took on a second wife as long as she lived as she was fertile enough to provide him(pbuh) with kids of their own. Even with subsequent marriages was at a time when the jihad was at his heights, and 'available' men was significantly reduced. There are more than enough elgible bachelors in Egypt. One should not take away a young ladies virginity, only to tire of her and seek out another younger one. This is where the abuse starts!

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Originally posted by Haqikah:
[B]Wa alaykum as salaam NewcomerB]

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Shukran...I couldnt have said it better!!!It seems like the more i try to explain about when and why poligamy was introduced ...the more confused people are.Yes these days a lot of things taht are being abused...the only solution is to educate oneself in Islam and understanding the finer points.

Thanks for responding to my message, however if you check again you will see that I said I was questioning the translations of the verses that you gave, not the verses themselves, as the translations are not the Word of Allah but a translator’s interpretation of His Words. And I said that I accepted your interpretation and understanding of the verses as a valid one as it is one given by some of the well-versed scholars, but there are other valid interpretations of the same daleel by other well-versed scholars that are different. And I did mention also that many of the problems that come in Muslim marriages, polygyny included, are due to ignorance of the religion or it being abused to suit people’s selfish needs or personal desires, and I don’t limit that just to men either as there are also women who do the same.

I agree that the Prophet, peace be upon him, never took another wife during Khadijah’s lifetime, but he didn’t say that was the perfect model nor did he stop the Companions continuing to take other wives at the same time as their first wife. This was a common practice at the time, all Islam did was to limit it to a maximum of four. However, we have to be careful about making literal linear assumptions from the Prophet’s marriages as it might then be advocated that all young virgin men should only marry widows with children and not take another wife until she dies. Then his next wife should also be an older widow and only then should he marry a young virgin!

Although the subsequent marriages of the Prophet were during a time of jihad when the number of Muslim men decreased, this was never laid down as a condition for polygyny, the only condition that was given in the texts was that a man should be fair to his wives and the Prophet clarified that in his dua when he asked Allah to help him be fair with his wives in what he had control of, i.e. his wealth and his time, as the hearts and emotions are under the control of Allah, not man. All the other conditions that have been given for polygyny are as a result of ijtihad and are not definitive conditions.