quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
If anyone wants any phone calls made in Sharm then post the numbers here and I will try and make contact but honestly the phone lines are so busy but I am having some luck with SMS

Penny

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penny wishing ALLAH helping you like you helping the others
thank you

[This message has been edited by egyptourguide (edited 23 July 2005).]

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Originally posted by egyptourguide:
3 points about sharm elshikh explosions
1- let you post here the name or information about the person you are looking fore in sharm may some one can telling you any thing about him
2- big big?WHY 90%of all tourism crimes in Egypt dose not including Americans or Israelis victims but mostly be Egyptian victims(no one American in luxor Temple crime at 1996)? i want to refer that any crime against tourists in Egypt it hearts Egyptian more and worse because the first income for Egyptian from tourism
3-if you found place in the world safe 100% no death or crimes there let me know and if you do not know do not close your door behind you because even inside your house you can not be sure that you will live or die in peace,and going around the world because it is the same thing
((we do not control the politician and we can not stop war but we do not spending our life fearing from others fool decisions
in KORAN (the Muslim holy book)ALLAH says in Surat Al-Mumtahana
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST PATIENT THE MOST HONEST
(((8-Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo ! Allah loveth the just dealers.
9. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them (All) such are wrong doers)))

THE MOST HONEST IS ALLAH

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Without any one going into religious convulsions....are you then saying that if victims were mostly American, or Israeli innocent civilian tourists , this would be in anyway justified?

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Originally posted by catlover:
Egypttourguide - you are right, we mainly hear about the western deaths on western tv. Because of my personal interest I now think of the egyptian casualties not just as 'egyptians' but as the hotel staff, tour company staff, taxi drivers and everyone else.

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Permit me to disagree, I did listen and watch radio and TV from all over the world, The reporting is well balanced, all channels said that most casualties were Egyptian, in fact the footage was mostly from Nile News satellite channel. And there is a great deal of sympathy and concern.

Naturally each country would state the number of its citizens killed or hurt..

So Please PLEASE enough paranoia, the world is NOT against US the world is very sympathetic to US.

Those who are against US are those who carry out such outrage in the name of Islam and I am sad to say it is with the support of many muslims, openly sometimes and silently but with secret satisfaction other times.

quote:

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Originally posted by catlover:
Hello Medosa, I'm english and I didn't read egypttoursistguides post the way you have suggested. I think he was simply saying that if the terrorists were intending to hurt tourists (which is mainly what we hear about on tv) they were also hurting egyptians more (even on british tv now, they are talking about 8 people (brits) and brushing aside 62 people to some extent).
I don't think he was saying that it would be ok if it was just tourists and not egyptians.

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If that was so, then why did she mention Americans and Israelis in particular?....

Please read it again specially this
"(no one American in luxor Temple crime at 1996)? "

There were many other foriegn nationals killed or hurt in Luxor...So what does the sentence above mean ?

I disagree with you about the British media, they certainly are NOT brushing aside Egyptian casualties at all , to the contrary it came across to me as a very sympathetic reporting.

It is natural, is it not, to answer local concern by stating the number of casualties amongst the nationals of your broadcast ?

quote:

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Originally posted by catlover:
OK I don't want to get into an argument about such a tragic event, with message boards interpretation of writing without the help of other communication such as expression is very subjective. Maybe 'brushing aside' was too strong a comment - but at the time I wrote the message, the reporter on tv was saying 'there are 8 casualties' and no mention of the total even though I knew it was over 60 already.

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quote:

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Originally posted by catlover:
OK I don't want to get into an argument about such a tragic event, with message boards interpretation of writing without the help of other communication such as expression is very subjective. Maybe 'brushing aside' was too strong a comment - but at the time I wrote the message, the reporter on tv was saying 'there are 8 casualties' and no mention of the total even though I knew it was over 60 already.

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Fair enogh ...I agree we must not get side tracked ...

The main point is, with this coming hot on the heals of two attacks on London, I do not think the problem is with who said what or how it was reported.

I am sure we all agree the problem lies with those who think they are justified in carrying out those mass murders or they have a religious sanction for it.

The duty that falls on all of us now is to deprive those fanatics of any thing that they may consider as approval or support.

No body should seek to find justifications or excuses for them either.

We have to make it very clear that no body considers what they do to be anything but crime against ALL HUMANITY, not one nation, or one group, but all of US.

It has now become a war against civilization and humanity, we must all act and quickly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:
I am sure we all agree the problem lies with those who for some reason or another seem to feel that they are justified in carrying out those mass murders.

The duty that falls on all of us now is to deprive those fanatics of any thing that they may consider as approval or support.

No body should seek to find justifications or excuses for them either.

We have to make it very clear that no body considers what they do to be anything but crime against ALL HUMANITY, not one nation, or one group, but all of US.

It has now become a war against civilization and humanity, we must all act and quickly.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
First we have to find out who "THEY" are and not make knee jerk reactions to every single tragedy that happens.

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Who They are???....here comes another "refusenik",,,,

Does anybody, after all this, doubt who those people are.

If you still do not know, they are Muslim extremists who declared war at our civilization and values, what is worse is that they think they have religious sanction for it.

But what is really tragic is that there is a significant number of Muslims who either actively or passively support them.

Knee jerk reaction.??!!.. New York, Madrid, passing by the Far East, Egypt (several times), London (twice in as many weeks), back to Egypt again,,, then you consider responding to be knee jerk reaction?,,, what would you like to wait for?...wait for it to come and bite your own arse...well it did..right here in Sharm El Sheikh.

You have to be in bloody coma to call this a knee jerk reaction....

Wake up man !!!

The majority of tourists in Egypt these days are coming from Russia, Czechia, Poland, Germany and Italy.

You will find American tourists mostly on the Nile cruises between Assuan and Luxor or inside Cairo. Everyone was so suprised that my husband was American while we were on vacation in Hurghada in June.

Most of the victims of today's tragic event were Egyptian nationality which means mostly locals were killed. People who work in the tourism industry, earn low salaries for hard work and try to make a living from it, many of them have families anywhere in Egypt to support.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
I am neither asleep nor am I a ""refusenik". I am well aware of what some radical Muslims have said, but I am still terribly old fashioned, as it may be considered these days, and believe that you have to prove someone guilty and cannot use supposition and circumstantial evidence to condemn anyone. If that was the case I would be more than justified in blaming Israel, because one of the cars "had special plates indicating it had come over the Israeli border at Taba on the Sinai peninsula" according to news sources. But of course if I said that I would be jumped on, correctly, and accused of being prejudiced!

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Now you have to be precise in what you say.

If you are talking about an accused individual (which we were not since no body has been named or arrested yet), then we have no quarel and prove has to be advanced before conviction as is normal.

On the other hand as we are talking about an organization or groups, the situation is very different, and your argument does not apply, some times circumstantial evidence is all you may have, since those people operate in secret and in the dark.

However in this particular situation, those groups did not leave much scope for doubt by their declarations.

It is also open to them to deny responsibilty...they did not!.....(in the past other organisations did exactly that in Europe , when they were falsly accused...and they were cleared of blame too), so what is stopping them ?

In fact there is no law local or international, that governs (prosecution), of organizations.

So your argument about the burden of proof is not valid, also that burden of proof does not have to be as strong as it is in criminal law, until an individual is presented for trial...then it does apply.

You really need to know a bit more about law before you speak.

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Originally posted by puppy:
It was maybe attack agains egypt, not for tourists..I mean they choise time,when sharm is full of egyptians..I think those who made it,they dont like,that egypt is doing well with america and europe..

[This message has been edited by puppy (edited 23 July 2005).]

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whose mad that against Egyptian people,against egyptian politician? think who is enemy for Egypt?
Egypt against what(war,occupation in Palestine..........Iraq?)
even before war ,there was another occupation (plastine)in 1992 (luxor crime)
every time the tourism be so hight they sending some one doing that so who wants us suffering can you guess?

some one wants be clear for every one it is by hands of Muslim to making the eyes a way from him
(NERON burned ROMA and singing to take it as chance to execution the Christean's after he accused them)

[This message has been edited by egyptourguide (edited 23 July 2005).]

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Originally posted by egyptourguide:
whose mad that against Egyptian people,against egyptian politician? think who is enemy for Egypt?
Egypt against what(war,occupation in Palestine..........Iraq?)
even before war ,there was another occupation (plastine)in 1992 (luxor crime)
every time the tourism be so hight they sending some one doing that so who wants us suffering can you guess?

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Yes of course, you got it.

It is to take Egypt to that brand of Islamic rule Afghanstan had under the Taliban. With no Kaffers visiting it or living in it...

And not those who you may be hinting at!!

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Originally posted by Medosa:
Yes of course, you got it.

It is to take Egypt to that brand of Islamic rule Afghanstan had under the Taliban. With no Kaffers visiting it or living in it...

And not those who you may be hinting at!!

[This message has been edited by Medosa (edited 23 July 2005).]

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If there is no doubt, why did the car come from Israel, wasn’t it checked at the border? Why did they drive into the staff quarters of a hotel? Why drive into a taxi rank at 1.0 am? Why plan it over an Egyptian public holiday? Why was it mainly Egyptians that were targeted? And if you are going to tell me that a group has claimed responsibility for it already, has that claim been verified to come from the source it claims to be coming from? You can make your suppositions over the answers to those questions, and other people can too, but none of us has the right to say we know the answer, as at this stage, until firm evidence is brought forward it is all just supposition.

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:

I am sure we all agree the problem lies with those who think they are justified in carrying out those mass murders or they have a religious sanction for it.

[This message has been edited by Medosa (edited 23 July 2005).]

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Please don’t patronise me, just talk to me as a human being with just as much right to express an opinion as you do, even if you don’t agree with what I say. If you read my message I didn’t talk about prosecuting anyone I talked about giving judgements of guilty due to circumstantial evidence. There are many groups who “operate in secret and in the dark” and not all of them are Muslims and not all of them declare their intentions, for example the CIA and Mossad are well-known for doing this too if it suits a particular political goal of theirs.

If there is no doubt, why did the car come from Israel, wasn’t it checked at the border? Why did they drive into the staff quarters of a hotel? Why drive into a taxi rank at 1.0 am? Why plan it over an Egyptian public holiday? Why was it mainly Egyptians that were targeted? And if you are going to tell me that a group has claimed responsibility for it already, has that claim been verified to come from the source it claims to be coming from? You can make your suppositions over the answers to those questions, and other people can too, but none of us has the right to say we know the answer, as at this stage, until firm evidence is brought forward it is all just supposition.

So you expect the whole Muslim nation to stand up one-by-one and group-by-group and say they didn’t do it, and will you hear about if or believe them if they do?

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1: To prosecute, (not to be confused with persecute), a case is to present the case before a court for examination of evidence , so what is your objection to this...is it not what you asked for by saying "not giving judgement of guilty...etc" ?

2: Please could you let us have your source about this car and all the circumstances you talk about...I have not heard of this from any other source...it reminds me however of the type of "information", that was broadcast by the media in Egypt in 1967.
(you may be too young, to remember )

If you do not have a reliable source, then it is rumours only.

3: No of course I do not expect Muslim groups to stand one by one...etc. Please be serious. What is expected is, if accusations are made (officialy, not by just any one), against organization "A", stating that it commited this act, then it is up to organization "A" to issue a denial if they were innocent of this act, simple and has happened before.

Whether it will be believed or not, that is another matter, but I would say it is likely to be believed , why not , who would do this and then deny it?...what would be the point of doing it in the first place?

I did not say a group claimed resposibilty for it, but all the indications are there, circumstantial yes, but there nonetheless....after all if it walks like a Duck and quaks like a Duck...it is a Duck (at least until proven otherwise !! )

As to all your questions about that alleged car...Do you think that makes it an Israeli plot?...Somehow I think they are not that stupid to leave such an obvious trail behind them!!!!

Well the trend has been for years in the Arab world that any evil is made in Israel with a trade mark attached...to the point that one of their minsters joked about it saying "if some one beat his wife in Cairo, they would say it is an Israeli plot"...

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Originally posted by 7aya:
can you PLEASE stop talking like that? especially in such a tragic and painful situation?

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The truth does hurt sometimes...

Now is the time to deal with this, very much because it is painfull and tragic. Keeping quite is not going to solve any problems.

Discussing the tragedy openly and frankly, is the ONLY way to a solution.

It is no good burying our heads in the sand.

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Originally posted by Medosa:
1: To prosecute, (not to be confused with persecute), a case is to present the case before a court for examination of evidence , so what is your objection to this...is it not what you asked for by saying "not giving judgement of guilty...etc" ?.

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I am well aware of my native language, thank you, and I was referring to your judgement of who was guilty of this crime.

quote:

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2: Please could you let us have your source about this car and all the circumstances you talk about...I have not heard of this from any other source...it reminds me however of the type of "information", that was broadcast by the media in Egypt in 1967.
(you may be too young, to remember )

If you do not have a reliable source, then it is rumours only.

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In English you put words in quotation marks if you are quoting from a source. This was the source: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050723/325/fo0cp.html

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3: No of course I do not expect Muslim groups to stand one by one...etc. Please be serious. What is expected is, if accusations are made (officialy, not by just any one), against organization "A", stating that it commited this act, then it is up to organization "A" to issue a denial if they were innocent of this act, simple and has happened before.

Whether it will be believed or not, that is another matter, but I would say it is likely to be believed , why not , who would do this and then deny it?...what would be the point of doing it in the first place?

I did not say a group claimed resposibilty for it, but all the indications are there, circumstantial yes, but there nonetheless....after all if it walks like a Duck and quaks like a Duck...it is a Duck (at least until proven otherwise !! )

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As to all your questions about that alleged car...Do you think that makes it an Israeli plot?...Somehow I think they are not that stupid to leave such an obvious trail behind them!!!!

Well the trend has been for years in the Arab world that any evil is made in Israel with a trade mark attached...to the point that one of their minsters joked about it saying "if some one beat his wife in Cairo, they would say it is an Israeli plot"...

May be it is more comfortable to think this way, but it is not very realistic...it only makes the Arabs a target for redicule.

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Funny isn't it, you can accuse a Muslim of anything, and bring forward red herring clues like a Qur'an left in a car along with a flying manual and a letter that admitted guilt that survived a plane crash unscathed when the black box was destroyed, and you aren't a target for ridicule. But intimate that a car coming from Israel might cast a doubt over who committed a crime, and you are!!!!

Saturday 23 July 2005, 11:56 Makka Time, 8:56 GMT
A group citing ties to al-Qaida says it carried out the Sharm al-Shaikh bombings that have so far killed at least 62 people.

LINK for full article:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D24DDAE2-2AD6-40FB-B51E-1B2B2C193B7D.htm

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Funny isn't it, you can accuse a Muslim of anything, and bring forward red herring clues like a Qur'an left in a car along with a flying manual and a letter that admitted guilt that survived a plane crash unscathed when the black box was destroyed, and you aren't a target for ridicule. But intimate that a car coming from Israel might cast a doubt over who committed a crime, and you are!!!!

[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 23 July 2005).]

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I have read the link you have given. The only reference that it gives regarding this alleged car is:

"Security sources said at least one car that blew up on Saturday had special plates indicating it had come over the Israeli border at Taba on the Sinai peninsula."

1: Unidentified security sources..the Journalist's usual way of saying I heard this from someone in uniform.

2: A car crossed over at Taba,assuming it is true, who were they...Israelis?....is that the only possibility...no other?.

On the other hand,I just posted a link above, here is at least one group claiming responsibility, and it is not Israel, they may just be fools who want to claim the (glory).

I am sure you are listening and viewing the news and internet, like we all are.

Do you still insist that there is doubt?

Of course you can attempt to throw doubt at anything, but how credible is it.

For example you still hark on about the New York attack, you think that you can throw doubts over the evidence, which is universally accepted by almost the whole world !, not only that but also claimed by El-Quaiida and its leaders.. Do you not see the futility of this?

[No quotation marks if it upsets you, will brackets do? ]

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Taken from the above link: "The authenticity of the statement could not be verified."

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True, but the authenticity of any claims made on behalf of a terrorist organisation can never be verified, can they ?

Equally the autheniticity of the claims attributed to security sources regarding the car that crossed from Taba , cannot be verified.

You can clutch at straws if you wish, but as I said before....it does look like a Duck !!

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Originally posted by Medosa:

Whether it will be believed or not, that is another matter, but I would say it is likely to be believed , why not , who would do this and then deny it?...what would be the point of doing it in the first place?

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Originally posted by Medosa:
Do you still insist that there is doubt?

For example you still hark on about the New York attack, you think that you can throw doubts over the evidence, which is universally accepted by almost the whole world

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What is the phrase? "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt." And until there is unquestionable proof it is legitimate to cast doubt. Even then, what was thought to be unquestionable has proven in the light of history not to have been true!

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:
The truth does hurt sometimes...

Now is the time to deal with this, very much because it is painfull and tragic. Keeping quite is not going to solve any problems.

Discussing the tragedy openly and frankly, is the ONLY way to a solution.

It is no good burying our heads in the sand.

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look dear, you are not discussing you are attacking. as an egyptian woman i'm devestated by this attack and i find it very frustrating to hear people like you say that this attack is encouraged by most muslims if not vocally than silently. oh how do you know, have you talked to the millions of muslims all over the world? and what do you mean silently are you a mind reader? and by the way many people in the west are encouraging "silently" the atrocities in iraq and palestine and not so sliently in kosovo, and bosnia and sreberenica specifially. so don't throw people with glass stones if you live in a glass house.
further, the fact that you have visited egypt a few time and know the arabic words for pimps and bars doeant mean that you understand this culture or country. please respect that we are in pain from the devestation that hit our country. solving the problem is never going to happen by ignorance, and saying that "most" muslims encourage such attacks is ignorance.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
If you say you can't verify anything a terrorist group says then how can you believe what they are reported to have said either for a denial or a confession? And if lack of verification casts doubt on what a "security source says that a reporter is quoting, why not an anonymous poster on a website?

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You are really reaching here.

You have been trying so hard to throw doubt, any doubt at all however remote, that Islamic terrorist were behind this.

There is doubt and there is reasonable doubt.

Yes you cannot verify beyond reasonable doubt some statement ...if taken in isolation and in an unthinking way.

But let us look at this again, even without all the other evidence that is now coming to light as we speak.

A journalist said he was told by someone in security services about a car...etc

1: Hear say
2: Cause and effect not clear or demonstrated
3: Unidentified source

On the other hand an organization said, we did that,...yes there may be some doubt but:

1: Why would some one adopt an atrocity?
2: If you have a cause, as this group claim they do, would you risk being totally discredited when the truth becomes known, as inevitably it would?
3: History , and modus operandi.

All evidence, what ever it is must be intelligently evaluated , there are no absolutes...

It really does surprise me how tenaciously you are trying to exonerate the guilty, who after all at least seems to have made a confession...

My dear, time will tell..or will you retort in the time honoured tradition of Arab debate, that it has been falsified?

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
What is the phrase? "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt." And until there is unquestionable proof it is legitimate to cast doubt. Even then, what was thought to be unquestionable has proven in the light of history not to have been true!

I raised the evidence given from 9/11 purely to make a comment of the different quality of evidences. The unbelievable evidences that were swallowed over 9/11 without question, and a plausible lead that is dismissed out of hand as impossible because it doesn’t fit a preconceived condemnation.

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Sorry I answered out of sequence, I did not see this until now but very briefly, beyond reasonable doubt applies only to individuals in any law . As I said before.

Also briefly, about 9/11. You are wrong. In an explosion light material like paper or clothing can be thrawn away a long distance almost undamaged, while heavy objects (black box for example), can be torn into shreds...

I dont know if you have a scientific background or not. If you have you should have known that.

But these issues have been settled long time ago except in the minds of those for whom this is a matter of (faith).

I do not want to deviate further.

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:
Also briefly, about 9/11. You are wrong. In an explosion light material like paper or clothing can be thrawn away a long distance almost undamaged, while heavy objects (black box for example), can be torn into shreds...

But these issues have been settled long time ago except in the minds of those for whom this is a matter of (faith).

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Agreed. We have some massively destructive tornadoes here in my state. A huge built in kitchen buffet can be shredded into a thousand pieces while a glass minuture on the of the buffet's shelves can be perched gently on a tree stump.

It baffles the mind, people make photo albums of these freaky occurances.

And yeah alot of the denial is faith driven. Like the crusades were God ordered and the knights bade no one harm, it was the hand of God who did the smitting.

What a load of crap.

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Originally posted by jamesbget:
I have read all of the threads that have been posted by the members on the bombings and read the different points of views, and I'm really sad to hear people point fingers here or there....
This is really a sad chain of events, it should be time to remember those innocent (Egyptians and non-Egyptian) victims and not time to bicker about anything else!
At the end the day, over 88 people died! Ruthlessly murdered for no reason whatsoever! It doesn't matter what passport they had, they were all human beings. No one single nationality is superior than another.
And if people seriously believe that, they're sadly mistaken.
If anything, we should all work to discourage radicalism in every form. Radicalism in Christianity, radicalism in Hinduism, radicalism in Islam, radicalism in Judaism.... it goes on, Radicalism is the enemy here!
My heart goes out to the people of Egypt!

J.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
look dear, you are not discussing you are attacking. as an egyptian woman i'm devestated by this attack and i find it very frustrating to hear people like you say that this attack is encouraged by most muslims if not vocally than silently. oh how do you know, have you talked to the millions of muslims all over the world? and what do you mean silently are you a mind reader? and by the way many people in the west are encouraging "silently" the atrocities in iraq and palestine and not so sliently in kosovo, and bosnia and sreberenica specifially. so don't throw people with glass stones if you live in a glass house.
further, the fact that you have visited egypt a few time and know the arabic words for pimps and bars doeant mean that you understand this culture or country. please respect that we are in pain from the devestation that hit our country. solving the problem is never going to happen by ignorance, and saying that "most" muslims encourage such attacks is ignorance.

ps. i'm sure you're going to go sift through all posts and get my respone when i said that suicide bombers are haram but i would do it if someone invades my country and typically take it out of context.i have continued by saying that i only find reason behind attacks in israel and only israel because these moved in knowing they are stealing people's lands.

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You are totally wrong almost on all accounts:

1: Who told you I do not know Egypt as well as you do or even better, did I say I only visited a few times? you must not make assumptions ..

2: I speak Arabic at least as fluently as you do, if not better .

3: I know the culture very well , and I also know Islam very well indeed, better than you would ever think or imagine.

So who is ignorant here?

4: You talk about Bosnia and Kosovo, if it was not for the stand of the Europeans in the first place (but the rest of the world too), it would have been much worse, there was no silence, I was in Europe at the time and I know what was happening...After all those war criminals are up for trial before the courts established by the Europeans and not the Arabs, and the soldiers who put their life's at risk to protect the Muslims there were Europeans,( not withstanding the fact that on one occasion they became hopelessly outnumbered and this led to a tragedy), but I know this will not go unpunished.

Now what have the Arabs done about it?.

Now what are you going to accuse me of next?

High treason, (reddah)?

You really should open your mind and stop swallowing the propaganda fed to you through the Arabic media, I know it very well.

Now just a little correction, I did not say that all or even most Muslims support actively or silently the extremists , I DID SAY MANY do...and I stick by that.

No I am not a mind reader, silently here simply means being passive, accepting, not objecting...a figure of speech not a literal meaning.

You see you are not objective at all in your discussion.

No I am not going to fish out what you said before, these were the first examples I came across, yours was there by chance not choice, but it would not have been there if you did not say it , would it ?

Oh and no I did not take anything out of context.

SO....

quote:

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Originally posted by egyptourguide:
((There were 10'000 Israelis in Sinai when the bombings happened.))
so how lucky that the terrorist avoid all these thousands to kill only Egyptian and others nationalities exactly like in 1992 (luxor Temple crime) that all tour groups went to the Temple according there program but only tour groups changed there course before the time of crime the American and Israelis tour groups
in crime of buses front off Cairo museum happen in time all nationalities there but no one Israelis or Americans
after it be clear for every one you talking about TABAH bomb yes may be this is the only one time against the Israelis who they found that the tourism in Egypt did not be bad so they sent some one to bazaar in khan El khalili to bomb,and in tahrer square Cairo,and finally that
you think how many Egyptian believe that it is not Israelis behind?

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Here we go again.

So how do you think they did it, did they send each of the 10,000 a text message to avoid the area...or may be sent them a telepathic thought message...

Israel, what a convenient peg, all evils come with made in Israel label in some minds !!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:

On the other hand an organization said, we did that,...yes there may be some doubt but:

1: Why would some one adopt an atrocity?
2: If you have a cause, as this group claim they do, would you risk being totally discredited when the truth becomes known, as inevitably it would?
3: History , and modus operandi.

All evidence, what ever it is must be intelligently evaluated , there are no absolutes...

It really does surprise me how tenaciously you are trying to exonerate the guilty, who after all at least seems to have made a confession...

My dear, time will tell..or will you retort in the time honoured tradition of Arab debate, that it has been falsified?

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It happned many times that a group may claim something they didn't do to gaine fame, Actually it happned in Palestine as well and leaded to a conflict between some groups.

Al qaeda is not that huge network unless you bought the Bush propaganda crap, it's a matter of adopted principles, so when Qaeda is accused omething, I wonder who should stand up and say no we didn't do it? Osama bin laden? who is al Qaeda exactly now? I don't think Osama knew or had any links with what happned in Egypt or what happens in Iraq or London!

Yes there many possible scenarios here and while I don't like the Israeli paranoia yet it remains possible since it was done before during the 50s when they bombed public places before UK left Egypt.

I agree with Newcomer that somehow pointing fingers at Muslims without evidences beame such an easy task yet, Muslims as well became very defencive and would accept anything fearing that they will be seen as if they are supporting the act if they didn't condemn and speak about true Islam etc etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:

Since you are not sympathetic to extremist ideology , then let us hear it loud and clear from you and all those who do not support this type of thinking.

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Pathetic! You really think we care what you think bout us? To generalize and take people with assumptions is your problem not ours.
And we don't demand Americans , Brits and other westerners to speak loudly and condemn their government in order to accept them.

This is not paranoia, this is psychotic[/QUOTE
]it is dumb if she dose not know how it is so easy for those whose mad this tragedy to choice the places and also i do not avoid that there where ready have notes about what is going to happen especially that one of Israelis news paper few weeks ago was warning them going to sharm?

i am asking all friends here better to ignore all what medosa says
not only because she has no respectful words to mentioned but also because she says bad words when she dos not like the post
so ignore her better she can spoiled our forums and this is my free openion exactly kind of freedom she is understand

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
oh i'm sorry you're the one who is wrong. firstly, you do not know about egypt especially when you made that comment about the lack of existence of bars. bars have been in egypt since the time of my great grandpa. they are clear to the naked eye, how can you say they don't exist.
secondly, i doubt very much you are fluent in arabic more than me since i'm an egyptian native and have lived here all my life.
thirdly, i dont know lady but "many" and "most" seem to mean the same thing to me
fourthyl, i was just watching an interview by Dr. Harris Silajdzic and he said that all we wanted from the europeans is to allow us to defend ourselves with weapons. and by the way it was the dutch soldiers who handed the bosnians to the serbs knowing full well they were going to be killed. the UN has called it "a black day in the history on the UN." and the dutch government has resigned over it. so don't feed me that crap about how europe helped. the tactic was to let as many muslims as possible be killed and then we will intervene so the world wouldn't think that we encourage it. nice tactic i have to say. i admit that the arabs did very little to help but the europeans havent done much either.

so baby you're the one who has to stop believing the crap the western propaganda is feeding you!!

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What a load of nonsense....you can believe what you like, but I mean exactly what I said. And it is true.

Regarding Kosovo, I am well aware it was the Dutch, who had to withdraw because they were outnumbered...They did not willingly hand anybody over..Of course they came under criticism for not fighting and standing their grounds.

If you think it was a conspiracy, them how come the government had to resign?...Yes it was a mistake that they were left hopelessly outnumbered and they failed to anticipate trouble...but you have to be fair..there is a big difference between incompetence and criminality.

Now to paranoia again ..

You said " the tactic was to let as many Muslims as possible be killed and then we will intervene so the world wouldn't think that we encourage it."

How psychotic is that ?, else where is your evidence?.

It is really amazing how notions can be so twisted, what would the Dutch or Europeans gain from killing or allowing Muslims to be killed ?

Is it true or not that almost all European countries have welcomed Muslim migrants, and accepted them and awarded them full rights like any others...(in some cases to be paid back by aggression and hostility), they were under no obligation to accept them.

Is it true or not that European countries accepted Muslim asylum seekers who fled from their countries torture, imprisonment and death..including Ayatollah Khomeni (France).

Is it true or not that in Holland in particular there is a huge Muslim community (the same is true almost in all of Europe), so rather than kill them, it would have been simpler not to accept them or even chuck them out... like Aidi Amin did with the Asians in Uganda, would it not?

Please do think before you spout out...

Now...

There is a big difference between most and many. I thought every one knew this, but since you do not, the simplest way I can think of explaining it is, most means the majority, many means a significant minority.

In Arabic it is (many=al-katheer, and most=Al-Aghlabia), there is a difference isn't there?

In the Middle East, the effect of years of brain washing is incredible...

quote:

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Originally posted by egyptourguide:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Medosa:
[b] Here we go again.

So how do you think they did it, did they send each of the 10,000 a text message to avoid the area...or may be sent them a telepathic thought message...

Israel, what a convenient peg, all evils come with made in Israel label in some minds !!!

This is not paranoia, this is psychotic[/QUOTE
]it is dumb if she dose not know how it is so easy for those whose mad this tragedy to choice the places and also i do not avoid that there where ready have notes about what is going to happen especially that one of Israelis news paper few weeks ago was warning them going to sharm?

i am asking all friends here better to ignore all what medosa says
not only because she has no respectful words to mentioned but also because she says bad words when she dos not like the post
so ignore her better she can spoiled our forums and this is my free openion exactly kind of freedom she is understand

[/B]

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Ezhar wi ban ... your true col ours are showing,,now you call like minded bigots to come to you aid?