quote:

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
A teacher makes around 200 LE a month, to give you an idea.

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Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
Only in a country like Egypt, a good Chef in a 5-star hotel earns more than a heart surgeon.

If and only if he is who he claims he is.

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Hi My Kingdom - I know he is because I met him while he was cheffing - we made eyes at each other over the evening cesars salads for a week and then started conversing over the breakfast fruits and yogurts for the second week

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Originally posted by catlover:
Hi My Kingdom - I know he is because I met him while he was cheffing - we made eyes at each other over the evening cesars salads for a week and then started conversing over the breakfast fruits and yogurts for the second week

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quote:

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
A teacher makes around 200 LE a month, to give you an idea.

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Hi,

Are you serious?
What about foriegn teachers, i.e. expats, or language teacher, i.e English?
Are they on similiar pay?

Thanks.

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Originally posted by catlover:
What sort of salary might a young chef with a couple of years experience earn in a hotel part of an international chain?

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Max 500LE especially if he lives in and gets his food provided.

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Originally posted by Penny:
Max 500LE especially if he lives in and gets his food provided.

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I think these guys who work in all-inclusive hotels have it the worst. Not many possibilities to get pocket in some extra money. I mean I feel sorry for them. Many of them have family, as Penny mentioned they have a very low monthly income especially since they are accomodated and fed by the hotel.

So for all visitors who come to Egypt on vacation please ALWAYS tip for services. Whether its the person who comes to clean your room daily or the man who fixes your airconditioning and so on.

You mention a scenario where tourists sit around eating/drinkgin because it's free. Since when? It's NOT for free. People sit around eating and drinking because they already paid for that food or drink. In fact, they will pay for it whether they eat/drink it or not.

And, I'm sorry but tipping someone who comes to repair your hotel room air conditioner?!

The hotel needs to be apologizing for not delivering what the guest is paying for (a room with air-conditioner) - not expecting the guest to pay extra.

I know baksheesh makes the wheels turn in Egypt, but it gets ridicilous how expected it becomes in the tourist places. Vacations in Egypt are not THAT cheap.

And we do tip all the time since my husband and me lived for a long time in Egypt. We know what a "normal" salary for the natives in this country is. And why not tipping if a person does a good job whether if its waitering or cleaning or whatever.

And none of the people who served as ever ask for bakshish. We are giving it because we want to, because we appreciate their work.

I've seen guests treating Egyptian employees very rude and pressuring, whether it was on the restaurant and especially at this hotel lobby.

Many tourists act like they are something better when coming on a vacation and deserve all the right to act up like that. Do you seriously think a person who argues with a microbus driver because of one Egypian Pound would tip a waiter?

i just think there's a perverse mentality in egypt that those with a lower income have the right to demand tips as a means to supplement their incomes from those with a higher income. this applies to govt employees, office boys, etc. - professions that aren't necessarily related to hospitality.

call me crazy but whatever happened to simply doing a good job because you were being paid to do one by your employer?

when did it become a contribution scheme?

what next, tip the pilot and air stewardess?

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:

what next, tip the pilot and air stewardess?

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No, I think the German air stewardess would get offended if me or my husband would try to tip her.

But I always make sure to thank the pilot and the entire crew in person when departing the aircraft.

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Originally posted by catlover:
When I was in Egypt staying in a 5* hotel where I had paid half-board, I tipped the 'room boy' $2 per day which I found out after several days was about double the going rate - but as I'd started doing it I could hardly stop as he would have wondered what he'd done wrong - I got little bunches of flowers, kettles, bathrobes, lilos all turning up in my room as a result! As this was approximately the price of a diet pepsi at the bar, I didnt feel it was excessive, and by tipping daily instead of weekly, at least the man who did the room got the money if they changed during the stay.
I noticed that the waiters, chefs and others rarely got any tips. I also noted the extremely long hours most of them put in - often working two 8 hour shifts a day and with no days off in a week (because they save them up to travel to Cairo or Alex or wherever they come from to see their families - most of the married men I talked to were so proud of their wives and children and were working so hard for them, and the single men were all very well behaved and polite, that the horror stories of grasping flirts I read about on here were a complete mystery to me) so I don't begrudge them anything.
At the airport I took $1 bills and kept some small LE notes for tips to use the loo and so forth.
When I first left school I worked as a room maid in a foreign hotel miles from anywhere where the wages were low (but roughly double what we've been talking about here) and I know how much difference tips made to life and now I earn a reasonable salary I can afford to make a bit of a difference to someone else (and this isn't supposed to be patronising but follows from my own experience).

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Originally posted by Penny:
dwgendy is that really your salary LE 250 a month, LE2500 I could understand for a professional doctor but not LE250. That is just such a shock.
I have to say I agree with you on tipping, as much as I understand it and the reasons why I have come to find it offensive because of the expectation and the obvious disatisfaction when I give sensible amounts.
As a woman it never feels comfortable either to tip a man but maybe thats just me.
I also hate it if you give a good tip that someone is suddenly falling over themselves to do things for you, I would much prefer to just get on and do things by myself and if I need help to ask someone whose job it is and is paid to help.

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Originally posted by dwgendy:
Hi there everyone!
Sorry to say, I am an Ophthalmologist, (eye surgion) And I work in Egypt, Had training in the US, and my sallary is 250LE a month! And after reading through this thread, I know damn well now why the waiters almost ignore people like me, why people in the parking lot try and make it as hard as possible for people like me to park, why people at the door of the hotels run to help others with thier bags and never mond looking at people like me. I know now why our room service is never up to the standards we expect when we go to holidays in Sharm!! it's because there are people out their ruining our simple Egyptian life by extra tip than non of us can afford! so that services, simple services is not available for us any more, even the previlage of parking your own car by yourself is not available becuase there are people who doesn't want you to park because they are wiating for someone who is a tipper to come and park here! you might think I am exageration, sorry but I am not!
one of the worst things also, is that people think that tipping is a basic thing here in Egypt, when I worked in Sharm, in Diving Medicine, I uased to get patients who wnate dot tip me, the doctor!! how offending could that be!!
Any way, my advice, is always pay the reasonable price for the anything in any country, other wise you are sharing in makeing the lives of the native people much harder, when you think you are helpng the minority!
thanks.

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Why would you bring up the story of your salary which is only 250LE - as you try to tell us here - and even if so don't you think its time for you to look for a position in another hospital with a better salary? It sounds for me strange to believe that you have been trained in the US (with degree?) and not able to acquire a better job. Sorry, but your story doesn't make sense.

Don't feel sorry for yourself, there are many studied people working f. e. in the hotel industry because they do make more money in waitering or whatever and in the end they are able to feed their families and thats all what matters.

And sorry, the hotel rooms for Westerner don't get better service, the hotel makes sure that all rooms getting properly cleaned and maintained.

Another factor is that we pay way more money than Egyptians who come and stay in the same hotel.

And sorry to tell you this but Western guests don't get treated better than Egyptian guests. F. e. at the pool the pool boy would come up and bring the towels for the Egyptian families. When we were eating one day at Mac Donalds the waiter would bring also to an Egyptian couple and their children the food. You know how they let us know that our food was ready? The guy at the counter waved and made a sign to come on over and pick up our trays.....

I appreciate service when I am on vacation, hundred of thousands of your citizens living of from Egypt's tourism industry and I don't see something wrong to tip someone if he's eager to work for it and also knowing that most salaries/wages are a joke. Without the tourism industry and us as guests many more people would live in greater poverty.

Infact I am even tipping the trash people, some of them working early in the morning on the streets, some of them still working when it already getting dark.

And I don't feel strange at all to tip men since these are the ones who who are working in the tourist villages. Hardly any employed women around (f. e. in Tunisian holiday resorts many women working as cleaner).

Since we are going now since couple of years to Hurghada on vacation we became even friends with some employees from former hotels we stayed at. Its great to see some of them again after one or two years.

I don't feel strange at all to give Bakshish because thats the way I learned while living in your country.

And I prefer to give it rather than to act all gready knowing that someone can have a good meal for 10 or 20 pounds after making our visit enjoyable.

If you try to blame foreigners for the misery you are living in I can just tell you again to get a grip on life and how to accomplish some things. Others do.

Lastly, isn't even your religion stating to help the poor?

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
dwgendy is that really your salary LE 250 a month, LE2500 I could understand for a professional doctor but not LE250. That is just such a shock.
I have to say I agree with you on tipping, as much as I understand it and the reasons why I have come to find it offensive because of the expectation and the obvious disatisfaction when I give sensible amounts.
As a woman it never feels comfortable either to tip a man but maybe thats just me.
I also hate it if you give a good tip that someone is suddenly falling over themselves to do things for you, I would much prefer to just get on and do things by myself and if I need help to ask someone whose job it is and is paid to help.

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Why would you bring up the story of your salary which is only 250LE - as you try to tell us here - and even if so don't you think its time for you to look for a position in another hospital with a better salary? It sounds for me strange to believe that you have been trained in the US (with degree?) and not able to acquire a better job. Sorry, but your story doesn't make sense.

Don't feel sorry for yourself, there are many studied people working f. e. in the hotel industry because they do make more money in waitering or whatever and in the end they are able to feed their families and thats all what matters.

And sorry, the hotel rooms for Westerner don't get better service, the hotel makes sure that all rooms getting properly cleaned and maintained.

Another factor is that we pay way more money than Egyptians who come and stay in the same hotel.

And sorry to tell you this but Western guests don't get treated better than Egyptian guests. F. e. at the pool the pool boy would come up and bring the towels for the Egyptian families. When we were eating one day at Mac Donalds the waiter would bring also to an Egyptian couple and their children the food. You know how they let us know that our food was ready? The guy at the counter waved and made a sign to come on over and pick up our trays.....

I appreciate service when I am on vacation, hundred of thousands of your citizens living of from Egypt's tourism industry and I don't see something wrong to tip someone if he's eager to work for it and also knowing that most salaries/wages are a joke. Without the tourism industry and us as guests many more people would live in greater poverty.

Infact I am even tipping the trash people, some of them working early in the morning on the streets, some of them still working when it already getting dark.

And I don't feel strange at all to tip men since these are the ones who who are working in the tourist villages. Hardly any employed women around (f. e. in Tunisian holiday resorts many women working as cleaner).

Since we are going now since couple of years to Hurghada on vacation we became even friends with some employees from former hotels we stayed at. Its great to see some of them again after one or two years.

I don't feel strange at all to give Bakshish because thats the way I learned while living in your country.

And I prefer to give it rather than to act all gready knowing that someone can have a good meal for 10 or 20 pounds after making our visit enjoyable.

If you try to blame foreigners for the misery you are living in I can just tell you again to get a grip on life and how to accomplish some things. Others do.

Lastly, isn't even your religion stating to help the poor?

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 24 August 2005).]

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Originally posted by dwgendy:
Hey, I am not hear to set off steamy arguments or anything, I just saw the thread and felt like contributing!
Did I sound like I am feeling sorry for myslef?? Sorry if I gave that impression, What I wanted to state is that when a small portion of forigners pay way more than expected and reasonable for day to day services and goods, people become dedicated to serving them, rather than anyone els!!

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I'm glad you posted this because it never would have even crossed my mind that foreigners tipping would modify an employee's behavior like that.

What's the recommended tip for dinner? I was giving 10%, which is what the guide books said. Is that too high or too low?

But it is difficult to give what feels like so little as a tip. You know American salaries and prices. To leave a 2LE tip for something is like giving someone 32cents here, not even enough to buy a small soda or candy bar. It just *feels* wrong.

I empathize with both sides here. I thought giving good tips or paying the higher rates for things was fine because it dumped more money into the Egyptian economy, which I thought was a good thing. But if it's making people treat Egyptians like 2nd class citizens, then I wouldn't want to contribute to that, either.

? Dunno what to do. ?

Many of you may not know that this 12% service charge on the restaurant bills, "does not" go to the servers. 9 out of 10 times, so a small tip from you is appreciated. Unlike in the USA, when you have a party of 5 or more, restaurants charge an automatic tip of 15%, and it does go to the waiter. In Egypt, this charge is even if there is only one person in your party, and it goes to pay salaries, not any extra tips, for the services you're getting directly from the waiter.

I have no sympathy for the opthmologist here trying to encourage people to tip lower because he feels threatened by the fact that foreigners receive better services than Egyptians, well, duhhh, if you're a service person, naturally you would cater to the person that is paying you more. Besides we're tourist, and expect the best services. Think about it, 2 people going to the same destination, one is travelling coach, the other first class, who do you think is getting the better service, the one that paid $1500 for their tickets, or the one that paid $6000 for their tickets? Money talks!

This is what the bribes in your country are all about, getting "special treatment". And since when did doctors expect tips, you're an insult to your profession expecting tips for your services, I could understand if you made special house-calls.

Besides it's sickening the way the high classes treat the lower classes. I have foreign friends living in Egypt, who has service staff, that absolutely refuses to work for Egyptians, always preferring to work for some westerner that still gives them some dignity and pays better as well. While an Egyptian caught up in the class system, pays them less and treats them like trash. Who could blame them really for preferring to deal with a foreigner instead.

People always assume they are getting over on some naive American, because they have a tendency to pay more for services. Well, when you're a tourist, and once you step outside the hotel territory, everything is much cheaper than one would pay in America, and this includes taxi services, so who is really getting over on who, in this case?

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Originally posted by hassancheb:

I have no sympathy for the opthmologist here trying to encourage people to tip lower because he feels threatened by the fact that foreigners receive better services than Egyptians, well, duhhh, if you're a service person, naturally you would cater to the person that is paying you more. Besides we're tourist, and expect the best services. Think about it, 2 people going to the same destination, one is travelling coach, the other first class, who do you think is getting the better service, the one that paid $1500 for their tickets, or the one that paid $6000 for their tickets? Money talks!

This is what the bribes in your country are all about, getting "special treatment". And since when did doctors expect tips, you're an insult to your profession expecting tips for your services, I could understand if you made special house-calls.
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Originally posted by Snoozin:

What's the recommended tip for dinner? I was giving 10%, which is what the guide books said. Is that too high or too low?

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Originally posted by dwgendy:
Hey, I think you need to read well what you are answering! When did I ever say that I as a doctor expect tip!!! I said I was insulted by the fact that some patients tried to tip me coz they thought that anyone who serves people expects a tip!
Here is an example:
1) A simple Egyptian person is standing in the street waiting for a taxi, 10 minutes later a western looking person come and stand 10 meters away, soon a taxi shows up, taxi has a visual of both clients, both wave to the taxi in the same time. Who do you think the taxi will stop for??
2) A simple Egyptian person is standing in the street waiting for a taxi, 10 minutes later a Saudi guy with his white galabia and white head cover person come and stand 1 meters away, soon a taxi shows up, taxi has a visual of both clients, both wave to the taxi in the same time. Who do you think the taxi will stop for??
But as you put it, money talks, this is what I am trying to prove here! people with money make it hard for those with no money!
I rest my case.

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I completely agree with you. And Tigerlily, as much as I like your contributions you've really shown what a sheltered life you did have when you lived in Egypt.

There's a HUGE difference between the way that hotel guests are treated. Maybe you didn't notice because a lot of those egyptian families at the pool - who probably got better service than even you - were slipping tips when they were shaking hands and buddying with the service people. Egyptians tip discreetly and often you don't see the exchange of money.

But I recall lots of times when an egyptian friend refused to go to some particular spot on principle - knowing that if he came alone he'd be treated like crap but when with a westerner, the doors would swing wide open.

One thing I'd like to ask about the salary. Most doctors in Egypt have private practices in the afternoon/evenings and they work in the public hospitals in the morning/day (which would explain why 8 or 9pm Doctor appts. are normal in Egypt, I guess). Even though the hospital salary is that low - that's not REALLY how much an average doctor earns per year, is it.

I mean, c'mon. There's a doctor in practically every Egyptian family. If it really paid less than an office boy's salary, I doubt that many people would be studying their little behinds off.

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
I completely agree with you. And Tigerlily, as much as I like your contributions you've really shown what a sheltered life you did have when you lived in Egypt.

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What are you talking about? I got by for almost two years with 1000 - 1500 EG per month, worked babysitting and German lessons before I got a better paid job at a German comany.

I can't understand why would you point the finger at me. I wasn't the one who's employing someone for cleaning, cooking, gardening, ironing etc. but I do have compassion for people in need even if I had to count my own money.

And great that you were able to live so frugally in Egypt, but that has nothing to do with my point. Which was - people DO get treated one way when they're from the Gulf, or they're foreigners, or they're driving a certain type of car/wearing certain type of clothes. So if you didn't see it, you didn't want to see it. Ergo, sheltered.

Btw, am I getting you confused with someone else or are you the one with the US military husband who was stationed in Egypt.

I hear that Mubarak is pledging as part of his election campaign to give government workers a 100% rise...one hundred percent of virtually nothing doesn’t actually add up to very much!

i don't know how it is these days, but i was lead to believe that people put up with the low wage in return for job security and most importantly - pension. (which you don't get in the private sector).

from my personal experience, working in a large private firm and also speaking with fresh graduates...

office boys (depends on the firm and their experience) but anywhere from 300-500 LE per month

Despite having two wonderful young boys, relations between me and my guest parents were rocky so I found after couple of months out that this is not the way I wanted to spend my time of one year in Egypt, regarding many rules of getting shot off from other foreigners, I had to ask numerous times my guest parents before they allowed me to go and visit with the younger son the Gezirah Club because I wanted to meet people (they had a membership). Once I found aquaintances I wanted to go out the problem was I had to be home before it was getting dark. I had to sleepover in another family who had a summer au-pair from Germany to be able to go out with her at all.

Thanks god that night I met some foreigners and through them I got in touch with a very nice German family who needed urgently a babysitter. My Egyptian guest family was holding my passport for 6 weeks until they day I left without even paying me 1.5 months of my salary I earned. But I had a better future ahead. I had a wonderful new family who I was working for, they were always there for me. And I shared appartments with different people and had a private life. I lived with my ex-fiance for only about 4 months together before we moved to England.

This is how my life started in Egypt. Can you say it was sheltered?

And seriously everyone forgets here one aspect:

Foreigners have to pay more for services in a country like Egypt. Nationals just expect that from you.

And ExpinCai I know that Egyptian families are tipping whether its in restaurants or in the hotel. Most middle-class and all upper-class families in Egypt have personal which works for them, its as normal as you buy your newspaper at the store in the morning.

I am talking about non-tipping because many tourists who are coming from Russia or Poland argueing about any pound (they even want to have things for free in the pharmacy or the Kodak store, I've seen it with my own eyes!) and behave not appropriate. They have such a bad reputation in Hurghada.

I seriously hope that we will be able to live again in Cairo and without a doubt this time I will have a cleaning and cooking lady or whatever and I will make sure to treat her well and pay good if her service is excellent. I've seen my former Egyptian guest family treating their Egyptian maid (which was about 13 years old at the time when I arrived) so bad, she had to sleep on a mattress in the kitchen and sometimes my guestmother would close the door so no one would realize that she's hitting her. I felt very sad for that poor thing, brought her sometimes sweet from the store downstairs.

I made many experiences with people in Egypt (I didn't stay only in the circle of foreigners) and I found out that the poorest people are the most friendliest and helpful ones. Up to this day I am still impressed.

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Btw, am I getting you confused with someone else or are you the one with the US military husband who was stationed in Egypt.

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For example, after grocery shopping, the boy that pushed your cart out to the street, then another stops a taxi for you, they all grab your bags and put them in the taxi, you pull up in front of your door, and the bawob, grabs them and puts them in the elevator for you. The entire time you didn't lift a finger, except to pay a few small tips here and there, and it's no problem.

Dwgendy I was reading your statement about how a foreigner and egyptian waiting for a taxi, and the taxi stops for the foreigner, and you feel that this is making it hard for people with no money. I'm sorry but if you had no money, you would take the mini bus or the other forms of public transportation, that some foreigners are not comfortable riding in. So I didn't get your argument.

I believe that most underpaid people are moonlighting as Newcomer stated. Many teachers supplement their low salaries by providing private lessons, and many government employees will take some baksheesh depending on if their position deals with the public. Some have too much dignity to take it. So you can't just go around trying to tip everyone, you have to show discretion. I have even learned how to be discrete, folding the notes tightly and appear as though I'm just shaking hands, as Expat pointed out, you have to learn the Egyptian ways of doing things.

And newcomer you must also keep in mind, that although what Tigerlilly made was high by Egyptian standards, as a foreigner she could be charged more than the typical Egyptian. And also, many Egyptians may have low salaries, but 7 people making 300 LE, leads to a household income of 2100LE, because unlike foreigners, an Egyptian could be still living at home past the age of 30, especially if they are not married. Everyone pools their money together for the household. Most of the time you will discover that they live in a family building with no rent, or they are on some old rent law where their rent is only like 50LE/month, which no foreigner can even imagine paying. So whatever they make is usually for food mainly, and eliminating meat from the diet, saves hundreds of pounds by itself.

So I see people getting by, they are survivors, and they have their ways. They know cheaper ways of commuting, shopping, and things we can't even dream about. Our maid once had 4 big shopping bags of fruit and vegetables, she bought at a public place, I wouldn't want to step foot in, sorry, and didn't even spend 15Le, while we'll spend that on one meal at McDonald's for example.

Thanks for explaining all of that about your personal life. It really wasn't necessary, but thanks anyway. What I was responding to was what you wrote here - which I still disagree with. There's a lot of discrimination in the type of service you receive at hotels estimated on how much is in your wallet. Stereotypically, the employees estimate that gulf/westerners tip more and adjust their service level accordingly. I don't object to tipping - I object when people don't do their job properly UNLESS you tip. Or, unless you tip what THEY feel you ought to tip them.

"And sorry, the hotel rooms for Westerner don't get better service, the hotel makes sure that all rooms getting properly cleaned and maintained.
....
And sorry to tell you this but Western guests don't get treated better than Egyptian guests."

And I like to pay people if their doing simply just a good job. The Egyptians who waiter, clean etc. never ask for money, sometimes they are even surprised that we call them back to hand them over the tip. There are just thankful for anything. And I can't stand the idea that so many people living very poor. It makes me feel guilty.

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Originally posted by dwgendy:
Hey, I think you need to read well what you are answering!

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I think you need to write well!

"when I worked in Sharm, in Diving Medicine, I uased to get patients who wnate dot tip me, the doctor!!"

Don't blame me if I thought your typos: wnate dot meant "would not" tip me.

What those taxi drivers sought were rare opportunities to charge a higher price to some foreigners, because they know they couldnt get the same from an Egyptian. It has nothing to do with tips, it has to do with the unscrupulous way Egyptians do business, and you know this! Stop trying to play the victim, when you know darn well the true victims are the naive foreigners who don't know the true price of goods and services.

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Originally posted by hassancheb:

Tigerlilly you're right, I can't think of an American that would hire a 13 year old that should be in school to become their maid.

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Originally posted by catlover:
I read the arguments with interest. A point I would make though is that most people only tip at the END of their stay so the room cleaners will do their best throughout the stay as they have no idea who will be a big tipper or not.
I personally prefer to tip as I go because having been a room maid, there's always this panic if you've been cleaning a room for a week, and the day before the guest leaves, the housekeeper puts you in a different location so the person who only cleans the room 1 time only gets all the tips.
As I said in my post, I started tipping $2 because I didn't know what the going rate was and I thought the price of a soft drink was hardly excessive. I couldn't then not continue to tip at that rate. The stuff that came to my room as a result were little extras like the flowers, not improved cleaning - housekeeping managers in 5* hotels will not let less than satisfactory cleaning go unpunished.
Also, I imagine the staff are perfectly well aware of who is there as a western tourist - and probably expecting to tip more - than who is there as a local. When I was a room maid, I would not have underperformed simply because I realised that the guest was a poor student (we had a lot of scientific conferences there) and would not have expected a tip from them. I don't think it does modify behaviour to an extent where there is a difference between an acceptable standard (for which you as a guest are paying) and unacceptable. If the room man wants to go out and handpick little bunches of flowers for me or put a lilo in my room that someone else had left behind, that's a nice touch but not critical to holiday enjoyment.

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Most people I talk to in America (friends, work colleagues) don't even tip the cleaning staff at all! They've never even heard of it! Do most people tip?

I tip every day at a hotel. Exactly for the reason you mentioned. I have no idea who cleans my room what day. I never seen anyone.