I was hoping for some advice. I am coming to Cairo to visit my Egyptian fiance, and would like to know how we stand on some issues. Before we start I will inform you all that she is Egyptian Christian, and I am German Christian, so we don't have the conversion to Islam to worry about.

When we meet normally it is in the coastal resorts (red sea etc) and there doesn't seem to be any problem with going out together, the occasional kissing, her coming to relax with me in my hotel.

However, I am aware that it may be different in Cairo and would like some advice, bearing in mind we are both Christian.

Can my fiance come to visit me in my hotel, and will there be a problem if she comes to my room (not to have full sex as we both agree to wait until after marridge for this)? We may just want to spend some time talking, relaxing and spending time with each other without being in public?

Also when we are out in Cairo, how does it stand with things like holding hands, kissing, cuddling....the normal things that two people that are very much in love do??

Any help on this would be much appreciated

Thanks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Damarti:
Hi,

Can my fiance come to visit me in my hotel, and will there be a problem if she comes to my room (not to have full sex as we both agree to wait until after marridge for this)? We may just want to spend some time talking, relaxing and spending time with each other without being in public?

Also when we are out in Cairo, how does it stand with things like holding hands, kissing, cuddling....the normal things that two people that are very much in love do??

Any help on this would be much appreciated

Thanks

Sven

---

Hi Sven,

I (english christian woman) just came back from visiting my bf in Cairo (egyptian muslim). First I would say that this is only the second time we have seen each other (after we met 3 months ago) and I am the first woman he has ever dated so he was very shy about it all anyway.

On the first day he just held my hand when we were crossing the road and also we had our photo taken holding hands and with his arm round my shoulder at the Mohamed Ali mosque/military museum place. We sat in the stone park by the Nile for several hours, and we wanted to kiss but because I am obviously a tourist (a 1.77m strapping blonde) the police were looking at us all the time so we drew kisses on pieces of paper instead. (I have promised him next time I see him I shall get him in the elevator at the Ramses shopping mall where there are no cameras - as he isn't from Cairo he didn't know anywhere we could go and he doesn't have a car so we couldn't do that either so I carried out an inspection of public lifts after someone suggested it on here )

After the first day he held my hand a lot more especially on horses and around the pyramids though when we walked back into the the town near the pyramids (Giza?) he stopped mostly. I noticed quite a lot of egyptian couples holding hands but I never saw any kissing or cuddling at all and I did spend quite a lot of time on my own walking round Cairo after dark when you might expect to see it more if it happens.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Damarti:
Hi,

I was hoping for some advice. I am coming to Cairo to visit my Egyptian fiance, and would like to know how we stand on some issues. Before we start I will inform you all that she is Egyptian Christian, and I am German Christian, so we don't have the conversion to Islam to worry about.

When we meet normally it is in the coastal resorts (red sea etc) and there doesn't seem to be any problem with going out together, the occasional kissing, her coming to relax with me in my hotel.

However, I am aware that it may be different in Cairo and would like some advice, bearing in mind we are both Christian.

Can my fiance come to visit me in my hotel, and will there be a problem if she comes to my room (not to have full sex as we both agree to wait until after marridge for this)? We may just want to spend some time talking, relaxing and spending time with each other without being in public?

Also when we are out in Cairo, how does it stand with things like holding hands, kissing, cuddling....the normal things that two people that are very much in love do??

Any help on this would be much appreciated

Thanks

Sven

---

hi sven, how r u? i'm an egyptian muslim girl. i just want to tell you that in egypt both christians and muslims are religous, and we have common morals and values. i have christian friends who are much stricter than i am in terms of dress, boyfriends, when to go out and with who. however, egypt is a big country and people are different. maybe your girl comes from an open minded family i dont know. as for the hotel, if she is egyptian, the only way she will be allowed to your hotel room is if you present the hotel with a marriage certificate.
holding hands and a quick cuddle is allowed in the street, especially if you are german, here people tend to pass some things if they come from tourists. but still it depends on where you are, don't e standing in a very traditional place like shobra, and do that. as for the kissing, just don't do it in public because most people will find it offensive. and i'm sure your egyptian girl is very aware of her culture and will know how to avoid all the faux pas.

good luck and enjoy crazy cairo

good luck

My concern is when I visit him I will be stay in our apartment in Maadi is that any problem with that becouse I just come for quick visit only and use tourist visa and did not recognized with certificate of marriage because our situation did not support to make marriage certificate for a while. He is American military who worked under US embassy.

He will give me the invitation for coming to Egypt.Any opinion for my situationvery welcome.Thanks anyway.

What you said is pretty much what I expected. I knew that it would be stricter in Cairo than in the coastal/red sea resorts and my fiance and I would have a harder time spending some time alone together, and expressing our affection for each other in public.

Still, I'm sure we can not do this for a few days and enjoy Cairo, as I have wanted to visit the city for quite some time! Maybe we will pay a visit to one of the Red Sea resorts afterwards so we can spend some time alone together!!!

Thanks again for all help,

whether you go up together or not depends on your attitude.

when you check in, tip the guy bringing up your luggage well LE50. he'll look the other way.

nobody will notice if it's in the middle of the day, so if you're just looking to relax together on the terrace and have your tea overlooking the nile in some privacy, you'll be fine.

As 7aya mentioned, most Egyptian people worship their tradition and culture and I wonder with what kind of lie your gf can get away from her family on some vacation somewhere away all by herself. I do not believe that this kind of open-minded family is out there unless her father might be already deceased, no brother and she doesn't have a large family.

Don't you think you are little blind here, playing with fire? I mean you both are totally aware of what you are doing? And no one is going to question whether you both practise full sex or not the fact that she is accompanying you into the hotel room is enough to raise eyebrows and more in Egypt.

You are mentioned she is your fiancee but somehow I can not believe this. And I wonder where does she live. If her family is so tolerant and open-minded than you shouldn't have a problem to sleep overnight in their place? Or is this infact a problem????

Also I can't believe that people would give any advise on this board (whether if its Egyptian or foreigner who lives in Egypt) regarding the best way to bring your gf into the hotel. Its just simply haram.

Your friend should know much better. And Sven it is true, everything has eyes and ears in Egypt, even the walls and doors. Just remember this.

There are egyptians who have western relationships and (gasp) even take vacations on the red sea as gf/bf. Just like there are egyptians who are virgins when they marry.

And why shouldn't I tell him what ALREADY common knowledge to most people?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExptinCAI:

The poor guy even said it wasn't about sex and still he gets a lecture about morality instead of an answer to his question.

---

If it wasn't about sex he should get married to her not to ask about advise how to smuggle his girl into a hotel room.

And for my part, I doubt that all Egyptians would take the money, shut up and walk away.....

I left Egypt seven years ago and don't believe that the society changed that much.

Its not about lecturing morality its about accepting a different culture and also avoiding troubles for himself - and most of all for his gf.

It's to get you your privacy. Or didn't you notice the way cleaning people linger in the corridor fiddling with their carts, watching tv in the rooms instead of cleaning them, etc. They're sort of the unofficial nosey "security".

And I'm sorry, but if you can't grasp the concept of wanting to be alone in private with someone you love without a waiter or every other passerby staring at you - and that not leading to sex - well, I can.

Thanks for the lecture! As ExptinCAI mentioned this has nothing whatsoever to do with sex, but just that as mentioned I know that as we are a mixed couple, every hour of every day there are 20 sets of eyes burning holes in your back and sometimes a little privacy can go a long way, just to relax for an hour or two.

I have visited Egypt maybe 10 times to visit her, including two visits to her family, who are lovely, including her father, her brothers and the rest of her family. When we got engaged, I went to ask her father's permission first and he was happy, as was the rest of the family. The family allow us to go on vacation together, and we always have separate rooms, and they trust me that I am not going to dishonour their daughter.

The reason I was asking all these questions was precisely because Cairo is somewhere I haven't been and I wanted to know where I stood, as I didn't want to offend anyone in Cairo, or offend the beautiful culture of Egypt, a country that I have much love for.

Also I previously mentioned that my fiance and I will enjoy Cairo and see everything that it has to offer, and spending time together of any sort is the main thing, we will have a great time together as we always do, and yes, there will be plenty of time for anything else when we are married next year!!!

You may get people on this board asking questions about the easiest way to have sex with someone they hardly know, BUT THAT IS NOT ME! My fiance and I have been together for around a year and we have spend maybe 2 months of that year together in Egypt, and I personally can't wait until we are married, so we can spend every minute of every day together!

Anyway thanks to ExptinCAI for the backup!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:
If it wasn't about sex he should get married to her not to ask about advise how to smuggle his girl into a hotel room.

---

But that's what he asked about and he seems to be a grownup - so why not let people give him the answers he's looking for without trying to lecture him?

Sven,

In addition to what expat wrote you might consider renting an apartment short-term. It might not be cheaper than a hotel but would also give you the opportunity to meet with your fiancee.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:
If it wasn't about sex he should get married to her not to ask about advise how to smuggle his girl into a hotel room.

And for my part, I doubt that all Egyptians would take the money, shut up and walk away.....

I left Egypt seven years ago and don't believe that the society changed that much.

Its not about lecturing morality its about accepting a different culture and also avoiding troubles for himself - and most of all for his gf.

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 07 September 2005).]

---

You're beginning to sound like a typical hypocrite. I do recall you stating that you "lived" in Egypt with your boyfriend and his mother, "before" you got married to your current husband.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
You're beginning to sound like a typical hypocrite. I do recall you stating that you "lived" in Egypt with your boyfriend and his mother, "before" you got married to your current husband.

And please stop trying to paint Egypt as the moral capitol of the middle east, its far from that!

---

That's not true, Egypt is even better than that. I don't see any strip clubs, prostitute houses, porn film stores, newspaper ads asking for threesomes etc. etc. Just because of action of some people doesn't make it a place without values.

But if you, Hassancheb, has more "insider information" why don't you share it with us then?????

Yes I lived with my Egyptian fiance and his mom together but he was a guy and you - Hassancheb - as a "specialist" should know that the males in a country like Egyt have all the rights which doesn't make it right though. My fiance didn't have any brother(s) and his father was deceased. Possibly thats why our situation was easier.

I totally doubt the above given story.

And are you trying to pick on me now because I don't agree on your Katrina issue than you'd better look out for someone else. I surely remember you many ugly and insulting posts towards Luxorlover. I am not trying to either bring in any personal facts of you into any conversation. Don't waste your time on me, try to change things around you if thats infact really what bothers you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I don't see any strip clubs, prostitute houses, porn film stores, newspaper ads asking for threesomes etc. etc.

---

You don't have 12-/13-years-old constantly engaging into sexual activities, have unwed teenage mothers, have porn magazines up on the shelves in stores...... the list is long.

Well, my perception is, that there is no reason whatsoever to take any "rules" in the Egyptian (or other) society overly seriously, about clothing or sex or whatever. Only a part of people follow them anyway, and follow in varying degrees. Asa always, the people who yearn for external guidance, are the more strenuous followers, while the number of internally guided, strong, brave and independent persons is growing, thank god (in whatever form for whomever may be) for that.

Most importantly, from what I have perceived - noone is going to respect you one single bit more just because you are a diligent rule-follower! A worm is a worm is a worm is a worm and shall receive a worm's treatment, anywhere, meaning that you will be tolerated or even praised only as long as obey (those who praise :-)).

Almost at any time it is more secure to remain yourself, respect the others but also command respect for you the way you are. You obey or you get obeyed, you set the standard or they set it for you, in rought societies it is mostly one or the other, so - you, do you have bad standards or what? Or do they have good standards, in the meaning - what is and does good for the mankind in the long run?

Ok, now back to sex, it is no secret that we, humans, get sexual urges as early as in kindergarten (or possible when sucking milk from those erogenous nipples of our mothers, I have not researched so well so cannot clearly state here). Our urges are something that need consideration and attention, may we like it or not, because otherwise we are likely to suffer physiologically or mentally. We cannot make our bodies run differently simply because arule tells us do so, even those who so strongly believe in gods should have more respect for a system percievingly created by god.
Only stronger natures may go long periods without food or without sex, and not all are, and even then we may ask - why? Why suffer? No known good arising from any this, while it is certainly likely to give push to and fire other urges in the suffering person, which then may take all kind of vicious forms we constantly need to read about, listen, watch etc.

Having sex when one wants sex is natural. You do need to know if you fit with you partner (it is very much a question of physiology, i.e. size and shape of both him and her, levels of sensitivity, character etc etc) BEFORE you tie yourself with him/her. And there is nothing harmful in having sex for the sake of pleasure only, if both parties have knowingly consented to the conditions. A lot of things we humans do for pleasure are a lot more harmful, while sex is even knowingly good for the body and mind - one of the best forms of relaxation both chemically and mentally, in short.
As always, a bit of mutual respect and thankfulness helps a lot, though in practice of course the situation is a lot more bizarre.

The double standards still existing in some societies will fall each in their own time and let they be supported by people who were raised by them and do not know of better, BUT there is no reason whatsoever why a young person should support deficient knowledge or the human nature of the way it was hundreds of years ago. Being young is about living into the future, not into the past, and there is one sure thing about future, that we do not know absolutely nothing of what it will be like, except for that we may be positively sure that it shall always be a lot the way we like it be, because so much of it has been and will be shaped by ourselves, by our wishes.

So... do you wish to continue rubbing yourselves in company of your friends in front of a secretly hired video? ( just saw a funny Egyptian comedy about it, it is really a good thing that Egyptians at least have this capacity to laugh at anything abnormal in own society, is a very healthy practice)

Or do you wish beautiful, exciting interaction with gorgeous live species, involving mutual learning and development? The choice is yours, or it is "theirs", whichever way you will want it be.

Especially foreigners, especially women, especially muslimas-to-be - stop wishing to be like and support the world that does not even exist for so many natives any more. It does signal some kind of confusion about who you are, and a strong lack of pride in you the way you are. The roots of this deficiency must be in yourself, so better look into yourselves than external insulation systems.
OK, her/his father does not approve or this or that, so what? If you marry there will be a lot he will never ever know or learn about, so when is a good point of "cutting free" Probably when you are sure of that you can take responsibility and are not likely to run back to him the next moment with tears in eyes (even if you do, no experience can do anything but good for us, humans, life as always simply needs to be learned by experience because no good books or then noone ever takes time to read these carefully). If it is about YOU, you need to do what is best for you, because it is your life, not his. Do not follow rules or perceptions, but follow what you feel is right for you. The rules will follow, they always do and have and will follow us, humans who simply go ahead and do what they will, because this is what keeps us going - the will to do things and capacity to carry out, too. We are a too great creation to let us be limited, limitation simply is not natural, but rather expansion, advancement, moving forward not backwards (the crab way).

Love!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:
But compared to most Western countries it is a place with definitely more values and ethics.

---

quote:

---

You don't have 12-/13-years-old constantly engaging into sexual activities, have unwed teenage mothers,

---

I do appreciate not having to look at bare breasts on every other magazine cover or advertisement, I also appreciate the fact that sexuality is regarded a private thing in Egypt and doesn't belong in public ... but I'm aware of the fact that these things don't necessarily mean morals and ethics are held in higher regards in Egyptian society ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:

That's not true, Egypt is even better than that. I don't see any strip clubs, prostitute houses, porn film stores, newspaper ads asking for threesomes etc. etc. Just because of action of some people doesn't make it a place without values.

But if you, Hassancheb, has more "insider information" why don't you share it with us then?????

Yes I lived with my Egyptian fiance and his mom together but he was a guy and you - Hassancheb - as a "specialist" should know that the males in a country like Egyt have all the rights which doesn't make it right though. My fiance didn't have any brother(s) and his father was deceased. Possibly thats why our situation was easier.

I totally doubt the above given story.

And are you trying to pick on me now because I don't agree on your Katrina issue than you'd better look out for someone else. I surely remember you many ugly and insulting posts towards Luxorlover. I am not trying to either bring in any personal facts of you into any conversation. Don't waste your time on me, try to change things around you if thats infact really what bothers you.

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 11 September 2005).]

---

Don't be ridiculous, I can't recall all the disagreements I've had with different people on this board! And I have agreed with you on other issues. So stick to the current issue!

When you try to lecture someone about the morals of a country that you yourself have not abided by, then that's called hypocritical, I don't care if it was you that said it, or a person that agrees with everything I say!

And the only insider information I can give you is the absolute "fact" that many young men have tried to hit on me whenever I was not in the presence of my husband, is that moral enough for you? Don't you hear it on this board all the time. Get real will you!

BTW, Luxorlover and Sonomod, have both had some really nasty things to say to me as well, but I don't expect narrowminded people like yourself to see both sides!

You spend too much time always trying to run to someone's rescue or looking for them to run to yours, stand on your own for a change. I definitely don't need anyone to agree with me, I'm way too opinionated to care!

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
Don't be ridiculous, I can't recall all the disagreements I've had with different people on this board! And I have agreed with you on other issues. So stick to the current issue!

When you try to lecture someone about the morals of a country that you yourself have not abided by, then that's called hypocritical, I don't care if it was you that said it, or a person that agrees with everything I say!

And the only insider information I can give you is the absolute "fact" that many young men have tried to hit on me whenever I was not in the presence of my husband, is that moral enough for you? Don't you hear it on this board all the time. Get real will you!

BTW, Luxorlover and Sonomod, have both had some really nasty things to say to me as well, but I don't expect narrowminded people like yourself to see both sides!

You spend too much time always trying to run to someone's rescue or looking for them to run to yours, stand on your own for a change. I definitely don't need anyone to agree with me, I'm way too opinionated to care!

[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 12 September 2005).]

---

...... yes and I can hear the barking in your tone........

By the way, just in case you need longer to realize what my point was, is that what I might have done earlier in life I don't agree to anymore now. So I had my experience and my point of view, whats wrong with it?

And because guys are trying to hit on you in Egypt means this country is well away from moral standards? Yes, maybe its harrassing, annoying but still 100% better than women getting raped daily, kids sexually assaulted and killed, teenager engaging all the time into sexual activities etc. etc. - as I said - the list is long. And it happens in your neighborhood, you are located in the US, right? Were so many people go on Sunday mess, pretending to look to the outside world all clean cut and nice.

Thats what I am talking about. Don't point your fingers at others, look at the problems around you.

No need to get crunchy at all. I never said you have to agree on my point of view, but no need for barking either in case if you disagree. That's all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:

...... yes and I can hear the barking in your tone........

By the way, just in case you need longer to realize what my point was, is that what I might have done earlier in life I don't agree to anymore now. So I had my experience and my point of view, whats wrong with it?

And because guys are trying to hit on you in Egypt means this country is well away from moral standards? Yes, maybe its harrassing, annoying but still 100% better than women getting raped daily, kids sexually assaulted and killed, teenager engaging all the time into sexual activities etc. etc. - as I said - the list is long. And it happens in your neighborhood, you are located in the US, right? Were so many people go on Sunday mess, pretending to look to the outside world all clean cut and nice.

Thats what I am talking about. Don't point your fingers at others, look at the problems around you.

No need to get crunchy at all. I never said you have to agree on my point of view, but no need for barking either in case if you disagree. That's all.

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 12 September 2005).]

---

I am sick of people like you pointing all of the ills of the world to the USA and overlooking your own countries, this is how I started hating Luxorlover to began with!

What about all the loose moral women I keep hearing our servicemen boast about how "easy" they are in your many cheesy cheap redlight districts. They actually encourage eachother to take a tour to Germany because of the girls "gone wild", yes we have them in the USA, I'm pointing at myself, now you do the same!

The young man is not trying to meet his fiance in the U.S., as I said to you before stick to the current issue!

You sit here trying to lecture someone about respecting the culture, what culture? A culture full of hypocrites like yourself. Just because Egypt has a low rate or unreported cases of violent crimes, doesn't mean it's a moral oasis. And illegal and immoral are not synonymous terms.

Did you pretend to be married to be socially accepted? Actually your own morals are lower than this man, as he seems to respect his fiancee enought to wait until he is married. Now that you are married and changed you feel it gives you the right to judge others? See how it feels being judged, now you want to judge his intentions.

Dalia who currently lives in Egypt seem to have more of a grip on the reality of it than this holy portrayal you choose to put forth.

As I said once before, whether someone puts a gun to my head and demand all of my money, or smile in my face, and steal all of it, at the end of the day, I'm still short of my money. One being less violent, does "not" make one less moral.

And one last thing, who are you to talk about what's haram or not, when you've admitted to being an athiest. Didn't your "moral" ex-fiancee, assuming he was muslim, know that it's haram for him to become engaged to a woman not of the book? Was he respecting his religion or culture?

You know I don't want to get sick to either read you strange posts neither I am going to pursue any further discussions with you about actually nothing.

If you indeed "hate" people online then try to avoid their postings, it also helps to keep your blood pressure down.

Get lost!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I stopped reading after your first sentence when you admitted that you "hated" another ES member because of her views. Very very strange indeed.

You know I don't want to get sick to either read you strange posts neither I am going to pursue any further discussions with you about actually nothing.

If you indeed "hate" people online then try to avoid their postings, it also helps to keep your blood pressure down.

Get lost!!!!

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 September 2005).]

---

Tigerlilly stop being so phoney, as if it's some big surprise how LL and I felt towards eachother. The feelings were mutual.