Little tip: Egypt is nothing like the west and Benha is a small city with little to do. If you don't plan on working or wanting to work, bring books, mags, knitting, needlepoint, etc. - anything else you enjoy cause these things are hard to find here if you can find them at all.

Dress conservative. Cover legs - no minis - no shorts - no bikinis. Get the picture?

ACT? LOL Don't scream, don't talk loud, don't laugh, don't talk or joke with any men... much more but can't think of it at the moment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
Does anyone live in Banha/Benha, or have you been there? For anyone who has read my previous threads they know I plan to move to Egypt, and I realized also that nothing is really going to change my mind, so I should just get enough information to be able to get there. If you have any information about this area in Egypt that would be very helpful, how I should dress, act, etc. Thank you so much!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
Does anyone live in Banha/Benha, or have you been there? For anyone who has read my previous threads they know I plan to move to Egypt, and I realized also that nothing is really going to change my mind, so I should just get enough information to be able to get there. If you have any information about this area in Egypt that would be very helpful, how I should dress, act, etc. Thank you so much!!

---

It's relatively close to Cairo, by American driving standards at least. Any possibility you and your boyfriend/husband can move there?

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
No I am not meeting Ahmed Z. My boyfriend is not there yet, he left egypt 9 years ago, and now he is being deported back.

---

I read your other thread. It looks like that inspite of the good advice given you by others not to rush into a decision, you have made up your mind at 18 years of age!.

I do not wish to upset you, but frankly I shudder at the thought of what awaits you.

Since you made up your mind at least be aware of what to expect, not only about geography or social customs, about which kind people here may tell you a little.

What you need also to know and very few would tell you is what happens if , God forbid, things go wrong and do not work out at all.

You may think you can simply go back home right?...WRONG, once you are married to an Egyptian , you cannot travel without his consent, so if he decides to be awkward you are in trouble....others may tell you different, but they have not been there , IT IS THE LAW, and although there is a lot of talk about changing it, IT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

Moreover, if you have kids, and even if he allows you to go back home, the kids stay, unless he wants them to go. Again this is the law.

I know that you do not want even to think of things ever going wrong, of course you don't, but unfortunately they sometimes do!. And the odds I am afraid are stacked in that direction (against you), because of different culture, habbits, traditions, religion, language...etc.

Finally, I know Banha very well, all I can say is if you had a chance at all of making a success of it in a place like Cairo or Alexanderia, you have next to nill chance in Banha.

If he cannot live, or cannot make a decent living in Egypt, how do you expect you will do?

Let him move back to Egypt, keep in touch, see how the long-distance relationship continues between the two of you and if you still into moving to Egypt you might want to go and visit him during the next summer vacation. It also gives you more time to prepare yourself and your family. This two, three months should give you a much more clearer picture of what you want.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Medosa:
I do not wish to upset you, but frankly I shudder at the thought of what awaits you.

You may think you can simply go back home right?...WRONG, once you are married to an Egyptian , you cannot travel without his consent, so if he decides to be awkward you are in trouble....others may tell you different, but they have not been there , IT IS THE LAW, and although there is a lot of talk about changing it, IT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

---

This information is incorrect! If she is an American or European citizen...no husband/boyfriend can hold her in Egypt and not let her leave. NEVER. I do not know where you obtained this information, but it is absolutely incorrect.

So to JA1023...you CAN leave Egypt as you like and return as you like. Visas are easy to obtain and as long as you follow the laws, no one can hold you.
Regards

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snapdragon:
This information is incorrect! If she is an American or European citizen...no husband/boyfriend can hold her in Egypt and not let her leave. NEVER. I do not know where you obtained this information, but it is absolutely incorrect.

So to JA1023...you CAN leave Egypt as you like and return as you like. Visas are easy to obtain and as long as you follow the laws, no one can hold you.
Regards

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
I understand all of this. I have asked myself many times why he left Egypt, and that is obviously because the life is bad. He said if I do not like it in Egypt then we can move to France, or Canada or anything of this sort. I will take your advice and wait until next summer to visit him, with a ticket to return. While staying on birth control and not getting married just yet. I will wait until I am atleast 21 to marry him. If I can not live with him because we are not married then so be it, I will live elsewhere. I am saving all my money right now, and before I leave I will make sure I have the protection of my parents. If I plan to stay there then I will attend an American University. If the relationship does not last then I will have no regrets, but I don't want to stay my whole life thinking if I was suppose to be with him, and if I was being selfish by not going to him. I can understand why you would think I don't know what I want because I am only 18 years old but I am very mature, and I am studying my choice a lot. Thank you everyone for all of your help, it has been huge, even the discriminating ones! haha.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TAREK307:
You definitly don't want to move to Benha, it sucks! move to Alexandria, or even better, Cairo, there they are very westrenized...and trust me Egypt is great but human rights suck, so imagine if for example you get in an accident it takes them hours to come to you and take you to a hospital, people don't obey the law, traffic sucks, over populated, dirty, no jobs, horrible goverment, muslim extremists, imean come on, anyone that gets a chance to leave egypt leaves, thats why all the young people travel to other countries!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snapdragon:
This information is incorrect! If she is an American or European citizen...no husband/boyfriend can hold her in Egypt and not let her leave. NEVER. I do not know where you obtained this information, but it is absolutely incorrect.

So to JA1023...you CAN leave Egypt as you like and return as you like. Visas are easy to obtain and as long as you follow the laws, no one can hold you.
Regards

---

Nonsense

Once you are Married (it does not matter what nationality you are, you cannot leave without your husbands permission. That is the law in Egypt AND IT HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED YET.

Now they may or may not strictly apply it (for fear of upsetting uncle George, or cousin Tony), but when it comes to the crunch, and someone tries to take a child out, it is a different story, and there have been many precedents.

If you think I am wrong, go and consult a lawyer, if I am wrong I will pay the consultation fee !

You also said:

"Visas are easy to obtain and as long as you follow the laws, no one can hold you.
Regards"

Ya, and that IS THE LAW !

The Egyptian government has an obligation to amend both facially discriminatory and facially neutral laws, regulations, policies, and practices that discriminate against a particular portion of the population. [Egypt’s obedience law], conditioning a women’s receipt of alimony on her obedience to her husband, is a particularly egregious example of a law that on its face discriminates against women. While police can no longer use force to return women to the marital home, the [existence of the law] denies women their autonomy and their rights to freedom from arbitrary interference with their privacy and family203 [and their liberty of movement204] in violation of international human rights law.

The law I refered to is (Qanoon El Tahaa), or obedience law. This Law is from Islamic Shariaa. It demands total ebedience by the wife of her husband.It includes for example obeying a husbands demand for his wife not to visit her family (he does not have to give a reason). It also included until recently stopping her from working (this was ruled unreasonable).

Regarding travel, an Egyptian woman cannot obtain a passport without her husbands permission. Of course they cannot stop a foreign woman from obtaining her passport, but (at least in theory), they can stop her leaving the country if she is dis-obeying her husband, hence the reference to restriction of movement in the document I posted above (Human rights watch).

Now the IMPORTANT point here is that regardless of current practice, THE LAW HAS NOT BEEN REPEALED.

What this means is , while the current government may be a bit lax (or lenient, depending on your point of view), in applying it, the next one might not, or even this one might just change its mind (under pressure from religious bodies!).

For example it used to be the practice that, if a woman left her marital home (usually through ill treatment, or following the man taking a second wife), she would be considered (Nashez), or dis-obedient. The man can get a court order to force her into a (marital home), in fact it is called (Beit El Ta'aa), or house of obedience, which only had to meet very poor and spartan standards. In fact it was invariably used as a torture home.

Until recently the Police enforced this , by taking the woman FORCIBLY to this house, where the husband would LAWFULLY LOCK HER UP.

The prevention of travel, is part of that law.

ONCE MORE WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT THIS LAW IS STILL ON THE STATUTE BOOKS...

Enough said, will not waste my time any further.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Medosa:
I have a littlel more time, so here is a little more:

The law I refered to is (Qanoon El Tahaa), or obedience law. This Law is from Islamic Shariaa. It demands total ebedience by the wife of her husband.It includes for example obeying a husbands demand for his wife not to visit her family (he does not have to give a reason). It also included until recently stopping her from working (this was ruled unreasonable).

Regarding travel, an Egyptian woman cannot obtain a passport without her husbands permission. Of course they cannot stop a foreign woman from obtaining her passport, but (at least in theory), they can stop her leaving the country if she is dis-obeying her husband, hence the reference to restriction of movement in the document I posted above (Human rights watch).

Now the IMPORTANT point here is that regardless of current practice, THE LAW HAS NOT BEEN REPEALED.

What this means is , while the current government may be a bit lax (or lenient, depending on your point of view), in applying it, the next one might not, or even this one might just change its mind (under pressure from religious bodies!).

For example it used to be the practice that, if a woman left her marital home (usually through ill treatment, or following the man taking a second wife), she would be considered (Nashez), or dis-obedient. The man can get a court order to force her into a (marital home), in fact it is called (Beit El Ta'aa), or house of obedience, which only had to meet very poor and spartan standards. In fact it was invariably used as a torture home.

Until recently the Police enforced this , by taking the woman FORCIBLY to this house, where the husband would LAWFULLY LOCK HER UP.

The prevention of travel, is part of that law.

ONCE MORE WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT THIS LAW IS STILL ON THE STATUTE BOOKS...

Enough said, will not waste my time any further.

[This message has been edited by Medosa (edited 18 October 2005).]

---

Ah yes, that house of obedience. She can divorce him though, to avoid this, right? I mean I'd give up all alimony rights to get out of the country if I had to....

I checked out your hometown, a small city with low population (est. 18,000 people), hosting an university outside of Philadelphia.

I was thinking if it is actually possible that you also want to go and see something else in this world? I mean I was the same. I was 20 years young, never had been to any place beside Poland and here I go, arriving at Cairo with the plan to stay for one year. I came and worked as a nanny for an Egy family in the beginning and on day 3 we already moved to a nice hotel outside of Ismaliya along the Suez canal. I had a cultural shock which was not too bad because I didn't see much more than the hotel complex for the first two months. Upon moving back to Cairo it really hit me. And then came a time where I didn't want to miss it anymore. Lots to do, many foreigners.

Believe me I don't think you will like Benha. I imagine most of the women are veiled there, hardly any foreigners working in this town, the living and atmosphere must be so much different than it is f.e. in Cairo.

I wish someone on here could provide you with some pictures of your boyfriend's homeplace. Did he show you pictures of his town?

You mentioned also in an earlier post that your boyfriend has the chance f.e. to move to France. How can he arrange that? If its possible for him let him already pursue a move to there now. I believe you are much better off anywhere in this country than infact in Benha.

I know you love and trust your boyfriend a lot but also be aware. Even for him its going to be difficult to live again in his hometown. Egyptian society will force many rules and obligations on him, on you. You will not be able to live with him in one appartment. I can't imagine that you would be able to stay in one of the family buildings without its being said that you are his fiancee. Traditions and customs are so much different there.

Look, let him pursue a new start in France whatever where he can make infact a living for the both of you. And you really need to continue your studies. If you have a degree in your pocket its valuable it makes you independent. You can get a good job. And you are very young. Enjoy your spirit and freedom.

Also I don't want to take your hopes away but I don't see your boyfriend ever having a chance to live in the US again. Since he was living illegal inside the US the government will always hold it against him. Even people who are without a criminal record, doing arranged marriages (meaning f.e. they marry someone from their extended families and try to bring them over now to the US) having diffulties to unite with their spouses on US soil because they are Muslims.

But again best of luck again to you. PS: My husband was born in "Philly".

If he would get a working visa for this country it doesn't make him automatically a citizen. I am not sure what are the rules for France. He needs to look into the immigration requirements. I am from Germany and its hell of a difficulty for a foreigner to come inside. Many immigrants live here for 20 years and more before becoming a German citizen, some never or they don't elect too.

What about Canada? Did you talk about that possibility? It would also bring you logistically much closer to your home.

Once you are Married (it does not matter what nationality you are, you cannot leave without your husbands permission. That is the law in Egypt AND IT HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED YET.

Incorrect information!

Foreign women married to Egyptians will not require the permission of their husband to leave Egypt as long as they have a valid Egyptian visa. If the visa expires, however, a woman will require evidence of her husband's consent to leave the country.

Perhaps you are stuck in Egypt and can't leave cause your husband is telling you that you can't leave without his permission ??

quote:

---

Originally posted by Medosa:
Nonsense

Once you are Married (it does not matter what nationality you are, you cannot leave without your husbands permission. That is the law in Egypt AND IT HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED YET.

Now they may or may not strictly apply it (for fear of upsetting uncle George, or cousin Tony), but when it comes to the crunch, and someone tries to take a child out, it is a different story, and there have been many precedents.

If you think I am wrong, go and consult a lawyer, if I am wrong I will pay the consultation fee !

You also said:

"Visas are easy to obtain and as long as you follow the laws, no one can hold you.
Regards"

Ya, and that IS THE LAW !

[This message has been edited by Medosa (edited 18 October 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
Do other countries have to grant you a visa once you get there? or does being arabic take away some of that chance? Doesn't everyone have the right to visit other countries, or is that just an American thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
Do other countries have to grant you a visa once you get there? or does being arabic take away some of that chance? Doesn't everyone have the right to visit other countries, or is that just an American thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snapdragon:
It is not nonsense...I am American and married to Egyptian who is a LAWYER and I have come and gone many times withOUT his permission and can continue to do so until I die. You know why?????
I have an American passport. So you probably need to pay for that consultation fee. I don't know where you got your information from but foreigners do NOT need there husband's permission to leave. For their children who are Egyptian citizens...yes they need permission.

Perhaps you are stuck in Egypt and can't leave cause your husband is telling you that you can't leave without his permission ??

---

Once more:

You missed the point.. Please read my posts again carefully

Yes you can come and go as you like at present, because:

a: Your husband has not objected, and invoked the law, and tested it in court.

b: The Egyptian government, does not enforce the law AT PRESENT.

HOWEVER the LAW IS STILL ON THE STATUTE BOOKS, which means it is a valid law, and CAN be enforced at any time.

And NO I am not liable for the consultation fee, because you missed the point. I am still good for my challenge.

Ask your husband this simple question: Has the obedience law been repealed?

If the answer is yes , I pay the fee, otherwise I am right (I know I am).

As I said, the current government are keen not to upset the USA or GB, or the international community, (or risk negative effects on tourism), so they, of course, try NOT to apply that law.

HOWEVER you must all know that this government or a future government CAN, therefore you are wrong in saying you will carry on until you die, because for as long as that law is on the statute, the situation can be reversed overnight WITHOUT any formalities.

It can also be enforced by any judge who may chose to go against the current tide, if a case is brought before him, specially if he was religiously motivated or has the backing of a religious organisation.

I hope the above is clear, and please check with your husband, I am in no doubt he will tell you.

There is another point that some of you may not be aware of, which is, once you get married it is assumed (legally), that you have agreed to and acceded to abide by the laws and customs that govern Egyptian Islamic marriage, if you are married to a Muslim, (the situation is different if you are married to a non Muslim ). This includes, but among others:

a: That your children will be Egyptians even if they carry another nationality too. They will be treated as Egyptian nationals and their other nationality ignored as far as the Egyptian law is concerned. This includes military service for males.

b: Whether you converted to Islam or not, if your husband is a Muslim, ALL your children by this marriage will be deemed to be Muslims. Even if YOU return to your original religion if you were not a Muslim, or if you change it if you were.

TO NEWCOMMER

You said:

quote:

---

"When I checked with the British Embassy, I was told that the only way a husband could stop his wife leaving the country was by a court order if she had her own passport, a child is different, that can be done more easlily, but to stop a wife needs a court order."

---

Absolutely, and this is exactly the point I am making, and I repeat again , THE LAW IS ON THE STATUTE BOOKS, therefore a COURT ORDER CAN BE OBTAIENED, it only takes a good lawyer and a willing Judge , you have just confirmed what I am saying.

As regards children, that is what I said all along.

Then you said:

quote:

---

“ And as you said Snoozin, they advised that the court order would be overturned by a divorce, so even if a husband managed to get one, it doesn't have to be a permanent one if the wife files for a khulu' divorce."

---

That may very well be true and it is outside the point under discussion here, of course one has to consider the time scale for a Khulu’ verdict, nothing is instantaneous, as regards it being permanent, I never said it was. But you need to reflect on the fact that Khulu’ only became possible very recently.

To Snapdragon:

You said:

quote:

---

“Perhaps you are stuck in Egypt and can't leave cause your husband is telling you that you can't leave without his permission ??”

---

No, No , and NO to all your three suppositions.

What is the need to personalize the discussion, by making such remarks?

I am trying to conduct an objective discussion to clarify the situation for those who need it.

By all means disagree with me, tell me I am talking rubbish if you wish, but back it up and refrain from personalizing the discussion.

To JA1023

For all it is worth, your man cannot move to any of the European Union countries, it is very difficult even if he has connections, such as close family ties, and impossible if he has not.

None of those countries accept immigrants.

I am sure you heard of the illegal migration problems they face, and how tight they made it to stop that.

If you have not please do a search on the internet and you will get your answer.

Regarding Canada (and many other countries), I am willing to stick my neck out and say he has no chance in hell, since he was deported from the USA.

I may be attacked here for this, but if he made you believe that you as a couple can live some where else in Europe, Canada,…etc. Either he is lying to you or he is very naive and knows next to nothing !

END OF TALK

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
What countries could we live in if not European ones? I would not like my children to be muslim and if that is the law in Egypt then I do not plan to raise them there. Is there any country we could live in? Would there be a possibility that I could get a Canadian citizenship and bring my man there to marry him?

---

You don't grasp the importance of religion & culture in the daily life of Egyptians. If you have children with this man they will automatically be Muslim & you would be expected to give your children an Islamic upbringing, otherwise you will be considered an unfit mother.

Countries don't give away citizenship that easily. I think his best bet would be to return to Egypt & make a life for him there. You could visit during holidays & get to know more about the country and its people to help you make up your mind about moving there. I think you stand a much better chance of leading a happy life in Cairo than Benha.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Medosa:
I never said it was. But you need to reflect on the fact that Khulu’ only became possible very recently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
What countries could we live in if not European ones? I would not like my children to be muslim and if that is the law in Egypt then I do not plan to raise them there.

---

We are not talking about egyptian citizens, we are discussing foreigners married to egyptian citizens.

An American residing in Egypt must abide by certain laws, but these laws to not extend to entering/leaving the country.

I don't understand why you are so passionate and yet so blatantly wrong at the same time.

Simply visit your embassy in Cairo and they will clearly explain it to you.

One technical point - if you enter on a foreign passport (even if you then marry in Egypt) and you keep the visa in your foreign passport current - you are considered the same as any foreigner (tourist or resident or student) in Egypt. You must leave egypt on the same foreign passport and there is absolutely NO FAMILY LAW that can over-ride this simple, international agreement.

I hope this comes as a relief to you as you seem to really believe what you're writing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Medosa, the point you seem to fail to grasp - and one which is posted in your quotes - is "Egyptian women"

We are not talking about egyptian citizens, we are discussing foreigners married to egyptian citizens.

---

No I have not failed to grasp any facts, to the contrary. The facts are:

Once married to an Egyptian, you are treated in family law as an Egyptian woman, no difference.

In practice there may be concessions and expediencies from time to time towards foreigners. But that is not law.

You seem to confuse the two.

I am talking about the LAW. Simply because any concessions or expediencies vary with time and governments and those governments inclinations or otherwise.

But the law is the law. While it is current and has not been repealed, it applies and It is not subject to whims or policy changes, and IT CAN BE Envoked until repealed.

I hope I made myself clear enough this time.

quote:

---

An American residing in Egypt must abide by certain laws, but these laws to not extend to entering/leaving the country.

---

True but only if Egypt has no lawful interest in you. One such interest is getting married to an Egyptian.(see later for clarification of what I mean by interest in you).
And yes for sure they do extend to entering/leaving the country.

[/QUOTE]I don't understand why you are so passionate and yet so blatantly wrong at the same time.

Simply visit your embassy in Cairo and they will clearly explain it to you.[/QUOTE]

Ok you are entitled to think what you like. I happen to know I am not wrong.

I am passionate because I wish to help others to understand exactly what is involved , as they have asked a question in this forum. It is our duty if we know, to tell them the whole truth...don't you agree?.

I do not need to go to any embassy, I am of Egyptian origin, and still carry the nationality.

I know the laws of my mother country very well.

[/QUOTE]One technical point - if you enter on a foreign passport (even if you then marry in Egypt) and you keep the visa in your foreign passport current - you are considered the same as any foreigner (tourist or resident or student) in Egypt. You must leave egypt on the same foreign passport and there is absolutely NO FAMILY LAW that can over-ride this simple, international agreement.[/QUOTE]

What you say is true as far as the ordinary foriegn traveller who has no other connection to the country s/he is visiting is concerened.

This is what you may have heard of as an international agreement.

Once the country you are visiting has a lawful (interest) in you, IT DOES OVER-RIDE international law.

If you for example commit a crime, even if it is not considered a crime anywhere else, you can be detained (prevented from travel), and tried, regardless what passport you used.

Examples of that type of (crime) in Egypt are blasphamy, homosexual acts, even practicing some religions for example Satanism, Wicca or even a Druidism.

Another example is, if you are a youngman with dual nationality (Egyptian being one), No matter what passport you used to enter the country, and you are due for Military service, this is another lawful (interest).

This example of military service will actually help demonstrate nicely what I mean by the difference between concessions and the law.

Recently the Egyptian government made a CONCESSION to dual national youngmen . If they enter Egypt on their foreign passport, they will not be asked to establish their position regarding military service.

But ONLY if their visit is shorter than 6 months. If they stay longer,THE LAW APPLIES and they will be detained (prevented from leaving the country), until they either serve their military service or claim a lawful exemption.

As you can see they are detained regardless of the fact that they entered with a foreign passport.

What say you ?

Marriage is just another one of those interests.

The government may make concessions, but the law applies nontheless, it only needs to be envoked by some one, then the matter has to be tested in court.

And yes family law does over-ride international law in this respect.

quote:

---

I hope this comes as a relief to you as you seem to really believe what you're writing.

---

Of course I beieve in what I write. I have studied it and I know what I am talking about

Trying to throw criminal law (based as we here in ES learned on the napoleonic code) and family law (as we learned based on Islamic law) together only shows that you are not as much of an expert as you claim.

I think you may be a little confused as to the legal term of “egyptian woman” that you so enthusiastically and carelessly interject into your posts. A female foreigner married in Egypt is not legally deemed an “egyptian woman” by any legal system. Neither does she obtain automatic egyptian citizenship by marriage.

Any person on a particular country’s soil is subject to that country’s laws. That is a universal given and the only objections to those rules are military/diplomatic immunities, wars, etc.

Now that we agree on this basic point, let us try to make sense of your scenario of criminal and family law. let’s hypothesize.

If a foreigner murders on Egyptian soil, he/she is subject to punishment by Egyptian laws. Agreed.

If a foreigner staying in a Cairo hotel orders his wife (also a foreigner) to stay inside the room and under no circumstances can she leave Egypt without his authorization - thereby invoking the family law of the land - according to you he is entitled to call the local police and they - again under egyptian law - must detain her and order her to comply with her husband’s wishes.

She - by islamic law - cannot simply go to the airport and use her foreign passport to exit Egypt legally (on the foreign visa she obtained when entering Egypt.)

Oh no. Once she steps on the egyptian soil, she is subject to egyptian laws.

Well yes. She IS subject to Egyptian laws and by accepting a visa, every visitor promised to comply by those laws and not break them.

Er. Personally, I would love to be the police captain to receive such a call from a foreigner - I would have the best story to tell in the cafe for the rest of my life.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JA1023:
Do other countries have to grant you a visa once you get there? or does being arabic take away some of that chance? Doesn't everyone have the right to visit other countries, or is that just an American thing?

---

To make it crystal clear for her, she CAN NOT be held unless she breaks the law in a crime. Being married to an Egyptian man is not a crime, therefore; she CAN leave.

If he were to even get a court order to hold her in Egypt, it would take forever and she could still leave. When foreigners leave, it takes all of about 2 minutes to get the passport stamped with an exit visa and onwards to the gate. I have done this a zillion times and coming and going they never even look twice at my American passport and barely blink at the visa...only to make sure it is still there. I have even let my tourist visa expire and the only thing they do is make you pay more fees. That is it.

So, Medosa all the things you are referring to regarding the law, will only confuse JA. She is NOT an Egyptian citizen so none of that even applies to her. As long as she has a foreign passport and she doesn't break the law with a real "crime", Egypt will not stop her from leaving.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Medusa,

Trying to throw criminal law (based as we here in ES learned on the napoleonic code) and family law (as we learned based on Islamic law) together only shows that you are not as much of an expert as you claim.
[QUOTE]

Oh dear!. My dear I talked about Egyptian law as it is.

There was/is no reason what so ever to make that distinction in the discussion we have here, what purpose would it serve?.

Because we are talking about the law as it is, not as what it was derived from, it would just be waffle.

More over all my examples, with the exception of the military service, which is not a criminal law concern anyway, are entirly based on (crimes) defined in Islamic law!, namely blasphamy, homosexuality outlawed, practicing certain religions outlawed.

So what on earth are you talking about ? or do you just want to attack or show off?

[QUOTE]I think you may be a little confused as to the legal term of “egyptian woman” that you so enthusiastically and carelessly interject into your posts. A female foreigner married in Egypt is not legally deemed an “egyptian woman” by any legal system.Neither does she obtain automatic egyptian citizenship by marriage.

[QUOTE]

Can you show me where did I say that she would be deemed Egyptian?.

Just read carefully, what I said was that once she is married to an Egyptian, for the purpose of family law , she is TREATED exactly LIKE an Egyptian woman. Not deemed to be Egyptian , nor would she automatically aquire the nationality either!!! So who is confused here ?

[QUOTE]Any person on a particular country’s soil is subject to that country’s laws. That is a universal given and the only objections to those rules are military/diplomatic immunities, wars, etc.

Now that we agree on this basic point, let us try to make sense of your scenario of criminal and family law. let’s hypothesize.

If a foreigner murders on Egyptian soil, he/she is subject to punishment by Egyptian laws. Agreed.
[QUOTE]

Not a matter for differences, since it is not really relevant, but let us carry on, OK agreed, but the scenario that follows is yours not mine!

[QUOTE]If a foreigner staying in a Cairo hotel orders his wife (also a foreigner) to stay inside the room and under no circumstances can she leave Egypt without his authorization - thereby invoking the family law of the land - according to you he is entitled to call the local police and they - again under egyptian law - must detain her and order her to comply with her husband’s wishes.

[QUOTE] OH dear OH dear OH dear!

No NO NO and NO, that is total nonsense, I did not say or imply that at all.

I almost feel it would be useless to explain, since I am afraid you either did not understand anything I said, or you are purposefully being obtuse.

However I will just this once go along and explain further.

A foreign man (specially a non Muslim), would not be able to envoke Egyptian family law, simply because he is not Egyptian.

Add to this, that you said his wife is not Egyptian either.

So how on earth did you deduce that I said or meant that ?

[QUOTE]She - by islamic law - cannot simply go to the airport and use her foreign passport to exit Egypt legally (on the foreign visa she obtained when entering Egypt.)

[QUOTE]

Again nonsense, did not say or imply anything of the sort.

No darling, she can come and go as she pleases, because her husband is not Egyptian, so he is unable to envoke Egyptian family law.

There is also another reason, to be able to envoke Egyptian family law, you have to be married under that law.

What that means is, even if both are Egyptian but get married outside Egypt, (The Egyptian embassy, or diplomatic mission however is deemed to be Egyptian soil), and did not authinticate this marriage either via the Egyptian embassy or in Egypt, the Egyptian family law cannot be envoked even inside Egypt.

[QUOTE]Oh no. Once she steps on the egyptian soil, she is subject to egyptian laws.

Well yes. She IS subject to Egyptian laws and by accepting a visa, every visitor promised to comply by those laws and not break them.

Er. Personally, I would love to be the police captain to receive such a call from a foreigner - I would have the best story to tell in the cafe for the rest of my life.
[QUOTE]

Never said any such rubbish. It shows total lack of comprehension.

[QUOTE]Medusa, again you need to recognize that we are speaking about (1) foreign nationals residing in Egypt. NOT DUAL CITIZENS. (2) Egypt is not Saudi Arabia. Two foreigners in Egypt would not be subject to follow Egypt’s family law. What makes you so sure one foreigner would? (Again keep in mind we’re not speaking of dual nationality and marriage does not give you egyptian citizenship.)

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I do not think I will ever get you to understand, but here it goes.

Envoking Egyptian family law does or does not apply as follows:

Both of the married couple are foreigners, Muslim or not, it does not apply.

One foreign man, Muslim , married to an Egyptian woman, Muslim or not, applies only if married under Egyptian law.

One foreign non Muslim man, married to a non Muslim woman, does not apply.

One Foreign woman, Muslim or not, married to an Egyptian MUSLIM man, it applies.

Both Egyptians, and the man is Muslim, of course it does apply.

Both Egyptians and non Muslims, it does not apply.

My dear , that is it, believe me or not , it does not matter to me.

Now I am convinced that you did not understand a thing.

So if you are not pulling my leg, .....no I will not say anymore

Goodbye

Furthermore, saying a foreigner can be somehow prohibited by islamic family law from leaving the country implies any legal marriage within egypt (even one that is polygamous and is not recognized outside of egypt) falls within this juristiction.

That is nonsense.

As is this sentence and I quote:

"Just read carefully, what I said was that once she is married to an Egyptian, for the purpose of family law , she is TREATED exactly LIKE an Egyptian woman. Not deemed to be Egyptian , nor would she automatically aquire the nationality either!!! So who is confused here ?"

There is no such thing as "egyptian woman" in the legal sense. There is citizenship. Full stop. You either have egyptian citizenship or you do not.

Again, any foreigner visiting a country is subject to that country's laws. Again full stop.

Either ALL foreigners must abide by egypt's family laws or none.

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Medosa, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here but the poster is an 18 year old American citizen coming to live (and marry) her Egyptian boyfriend. I don't even recall her stating whether matrimony will specifically take place in Egypt.

Furthermore, saying a foreigner can be somehow prohibited by islamic family law from leaving the country implies any legal marriage within egypt (even one that is polygamous and is not recognized outside of egypt) falls within this juristiction.

That is nonsense.

As is this sentence and I quote:

"Just read carefully, what I said was that once she is married to an Egyptian, for the purpose of family law , she is TREATED exactly LIKE an Egyptian woman. Not deemed to be Egyptian , nor would she automatically aquire the nationality either!!! So who is confused here ?"

There is no such thing as "egyptian woman" in the legal sense. There is citizenship. Full stop. You either have egyptian citizenship or you do not.

Again, any foreigner visiting a country is subject to that country's laws. Again full stop.

Either ALL foreigners must abide by egypt's family laws or none.

PS
and in my scenario, where did you get the idea that a foreigner cannot also be a devout muslim? tsk tsk.

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No need to say a great deal more... except that JA did say she was planning to come to Egypt to get married.

1: An Egyptian woman = an Egyptian female citizen, it is a well recognized legal entity...No Arguments about it.

2: AS foreigners, if married, would have been married under different laws,the Egyptian family (Islamic)laws do not apply to them, in the context we are discussing here.

3: But Egyptian family law has special sections (in fact separate laws), that cater for Egyptian non Muslims, specifically Copts. Some aspects specified as such in this law would apply also to non Muslim foreigners.

It is clear you did not know about this at all, otherwise you would have not said "Either ALL foreigners must abide by egypt's family laws or none.".

Because we were discussing an aspect of that law that applies to Muslims only, it does not even apply to Egyptians who are non Muslims let alone expecting it, as you did to apply to foreigners.....enough said.

secondly what does being devout or not have to do with it, and where did you get the idea I implied that? Are we speaking the same language?

Just a little addition.
You said:
“There is no such thing as "egyptian woman" in the legal sense. There is citizenship. Full stop. You either have egyptian citizenship or you do not. “

I replied:

“An Egyptian woman = an Egyptian female citizen, it is a well recognized legal entity...No Arguments about it.”

So as I do not recall that women were referred to in the terms you outlined,
I checked further.

The text, naturally, is in Arabic. The form used in all occurrences as directly translated, is Egyptian woman, the form citizen is NEVER used!.

You clearly make your argument on the hoof, from your limited knowledge of your native law, not that of Egyptian law.

Now I am rather bored of this argument for the sake of argument or point scoring!. So this is my last comment on this topic.

*

Saturday, 4 November, 2000, 22:43 GMT
Egyptian wives win travel rights

By Caroline Hawley in Egypt
The High Court in Egypt has ruled that an Interior Ministry decree that allows men to prevent their wives from travelling is unconstitutional.

The ruling has been welcomed by Mervat Tellawi, who heads Egypt's high-powered Women's Council set up earlier this year.

She said it was a step in the right direction for equality.

Women activists have been fighting for the right to travel freely for several years.

'Victory'

Now Egypt's constitutional court has ruled in their favour, in a case brought by an individual woman who challenged her husband's right to stop her leaving the country.

First divorce rights, then travel

A prominent lawyer who has campaigned for legal improvements for women, Mona Zulficar, said the ruling was a great victory.

She said the Interior Ministry decree had frequently been used abusively against women.

Earlier this year Egypt's male-dominated parliament passed new legislation making it easier for women to divorce.

But it baulked at allowing women the right to travel abroad.

........

quote:

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I found this interesting article on the net which is already five years old.

*

Saturday, 4 November, 2000, 22:43 GMT
Egyptian wives win travel rights

By Caroline Hawley in Egypt
The High Court in Egypt has ruled that an Interior Ministry decree that allows men to prevent their wives from travelling is unconstitutional.

The ruling has been welcomed by Mervat Tellawi, who heads Egypt's high-powered Women's Council set up earlier this year.

She said it was a step in the right direction for equality.

Women activists have been fighting for the right to travel freely for several years.

'Victory'

Now Egypt's constitutional court has ruled in their favour, in a case brought by an individual woman who challenged her husband's right to stop her leaving the country.

First divorce rights, then travel

A prominent lawyer who has campaigned for legal improvements for women, Mona Zulficar, said the ruling was a great victory.

She said the Interior Ministry decree had frequently been used abusively against women.

Earlier this year Egypt's male-dominated parliament passed new legislation making it easier for women to divorce.

But it baulked at allowing women the right to travel abroad.

........

*

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Even though I said I will not comment again, I will make an exception because this ruling I am sure will be mis-understood too. (the reporter Ms. Hawley, did already).

I do not wish to pour cold water over this but inspite of the fan fare that did accompany it at the time, you must be aware of the facts.

But before I discuss that, I have one comment.

This very obviously confirms what I said earlier, although one may think it has made it history now !

Sorry to say it has not, why ?

Because the high court did not rule on the law of obedience, it only ruled on a Ministry of Interior decree. The later is a lawly status decision, does not amount to any more than an adminstrative instrument.

The practical effect may be good, but please do note that the high court stopped short of ruling that the obedience law as it stands is unconsitutional.

It was for sure a very brave move by the high court.

However they shyed short of challenging the law, simply for fear of incurring the wrath of the religious establishment.

Victory it was, but sadly a limited victory.

Also sadly my thesis still stands, because this ruling does not even neeed to be challenged to re-invoke that law again.

Because it is still a valid law, and as I said time and again, it is still on the statute...it has not been repealed.

Why ? because the court simply did not rule on the law itself, or get anywhere near it!

I am sure a lot of you will come up in arms against me for saying this, but think about it first!, may be even consult any one you know who is well versed in law.

Back to my vow of silence...you can now attack me to your hearts content.

You explain foreigners are considered "egyptian women" after they get married. You then explain that by "egyptian women" you mean females with egyptian citizenship.

Are you saying a foreigner automatically becomes an egyptian citizen by marriage to an egyptian?

Can you please site a web site to back up this claim?

If it isn't correct, and you think foreign women do not get egyptian citizenship the moment they get married, then what is your point here?

quote:

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I mean I was the same. I was 20 years young, never had been to any place beside Poland .]

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Tiger, you are from Poland????????