quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
ugh!
your frankness is a bunch of bs.

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latest survey from an actually reputable sexologist concludes:

caucasian - 14cm average
asian - 11.5cm average
african - 16.5cm average
arab - 14cm average

not exactly surprising given arabs are caucasian!

quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
no sue, i was referring to anothernewmember's post .... and ego!

latest survey concludes:

caucasian - 14cm average
asian - 11.5cm average
african - 16.5cm average
arab - 14cm average

not exactly surprising given arabs are caucasian!

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 18 January 2005).]

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 18 January 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
no sue, i was referring to anothernewmember's post .... and ego!

latest survey concludes:

caucasian - 14cm average
asian - 11.5cm average
african - 16.5cm average
arab - 14cm average

not exactly surprising given arabs are caucasian!

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 18 January 2005).]

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 18 January 2005).]

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Egyptians are more African, than Arab, and they will be the first to tell you that. So you only proved my theory, thanks.

I don't want to tell you how they viewed their male principal on ancient art, maybe exaggerated, but they drew themselves monstrously huge.

And these FGM's happen in africa more than anywhere else in the world, its definitely and Ancient african tradition. Im sure Ausar would know more about it. If it is in Asia it probably travelled from Africa during the migration period.

There are millions of women complaining about how painful sex is for them after this procedure, but I'm sorry I can't help but wonder could some of this pain be attributed to the size of some of their men as well.

BTW I'm a female,

quote:

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Originally posted by AnotherNewMember:
And about orgasm (antivillain you may want to plug you ears, or go read a nice children's book, as this is FRANKLY for adults), its more than a physical thing, its psychological, etc. Otherwise you wouldn't have millions of women witht their clitoris intact, camplaining that they have never had an orgasm.

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ok, so at VERY BEST (meaning you are full african), you have added about an inch to your penis.... oops, i mean the african egyptian penis. this is probably due to negroids being, in general, taller and bigger people than caucasoids.

"I don't want to tell you how they viewed their male principal on ancient art, maybe exaggerated, but they drew themselves monstrously huge."

yep, one inch.

"There are millions of women complaining about how painful sex is for them after this procedure, but I'm sorry I can't help but wonder could some of this pain be attributed to the size of some of their men as well."

uno incho oucho

"BTW I'm a female"

yes, thank you for telling me! you brag like a man (or a sailor). i don't think i have ever met a woman like you before. i cannot help but wonder what we've lost for our one inch.

btw, i'm an egyptian man. pretty light-skinned, so i can only give myself half-an-inch.

:-(

"And about orgasm (antivillain you may want to plug you ears, or go read a nice children's book, as this is FRANKLY for adults), its more than a physical thing, its psychological, etc."

something tells me both are corrupt in you.

"BTW, antivillain, where did you get those statistics from. When they report Asians are they talking about men for the orient, like China, Japan etc... just curious"

i think from the penis size debate web page... and yes, i think they are referring to mongoloids.

quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
well, with all that said and done, i don't believe any of it. i honestly think it's height/weight proportional to the person... with their being some discrepancies in equal proportion to each race.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sue333:

My friends and I work on the feet principle and that seems quite accurate- its a proportion thing!!! Big feet- big .... SO you will be all walking around looking at the size of mens feet. And the men with small feet will all be wearing big shoes. lolol

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I thought it was the size of the nose! Damn, wasted so many years due to my ignorance. Will look at feet from now on!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:

So if you put FMG and an arranged marriage to someone you don't love then then outlook is a bit grim. Certainly not what god intended if you read the Koran.

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Penny I agree, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating FGM's I'm totally against it, all I was saying is that some, not all women, that have had this may still be able to achieve pleasure via the g-spot.

Antivillain- sounds like you suffer from penis envy, I wasn't bragging, just pointing out what you proved statistically. In my culture, women are free to talk about their sexuality without repressing it. I read somewhere that a lot of women in strict islamic countries are not sexually setisfied, because they are too shy to let their spouses know what pleases them. And I think you should know, an unsatisfied woman, makes as unsatisfied man. Only recently have they started sex counseling in Egypt. And I know they don't teach it in schools, like we do.

quote:

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Originally posted by AnotherNewMember:

Karah Mia, you married an Egyptian man, didn't you. I miss your humor [/B]

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And I miss your unbearable lightness of beeing.
I did: Egypt is in Africa after all....

given your level of morality i would expect such thinking from you. didn't i just say that i thought those statistics were bs? i was trying to point out that even THE most favorable stats point out no difference -- oops except for that all important 1 inch... making your "monsterous" and "pain because it's too big" statements laughable.

now in defense of the caucasoids, i believe on the same web stie it talks about caucasoids having more blood-filling capacity cells in their penises making them bigger when particularly excited. also, look at the pool the survey was done from. like 75% of the participants were caucasoid... bound to skew the end results.

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 18 January 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
"sounds like you suffer from penis envy"

given your level of morality i would expect such thinking from you. didn't i just say that i thought those statistics were bs? i was trying to point out that even THE most favorable stats point out no difference -- oops except for that all important 1 inch... making your "monsterous" and "pain because it's too big" statements laughable.

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Remind me to throw out my immoral subscription to Cosmo magazine, probably considered porn to you. Morality is relative, forbid you go on some safari with Karah Mia, you'd probably think some African tribe of topless women are of low morale.

You should really study the anatomy of a woman more carefully, as this 1 INCH you keep trying to MINIMIZE the importance of can mean of world of difference as to whether the G-spot is reached or not.

now in defense of the caucasoids

also, like i said, the 1 inch doesn't exist. people are height/weight/penis size proportional.

First let me say that Ms is right, according to the recent national survey in Egypt 97% of the ever married woman are circumcised. Of course the % varies from Upper Egypt to Delta to Greater Cairo. However, the % still quite high in greater Cairo, it exceed 75%.

However, I do not agree with Ms is trying to construct a correlation between sexuality and FGM. First it is biologically possible to reach climax when you are circumcised, there is no clinical research that have proven otherwise. There are a lot non clinical research that have addressed this issues. I have to mention that there are a lot of ambiguity in the results. While some researchers concluded that sexual desire was not usually affected by the procedure and that women who undergone the practice are just more likely as those who are not to report sexual desire. Others have reported that it has some effects.

In my opinion the debate is more fundamental than whether a woman with FGM would climax or not ?. It is rather what is sexual pleasure? and how could we define it and in which context?

So far, we have been using the Euro-American definition of sexuality, which put a lot of influence on the role of clitoris in achieving sexual pleasure. Sexuality, is "the interaction and transactional processes that place within a culture or subculture whereby a particular activity comes to be defined by the participants as sexual". In other words there are many factors that influence women's and men's sexuality, including social norms and behaviour, gender roles and even economical and political environment. Therefore it is so naïve to say woman with FGM can Not Climax.

My last comment, will come in a shape of a question: how many times, women on this board "with clitoris" have not orgasm during a sexual relation?

On of the highest % of no orgasmic woman is the US? Circumcision is not performed there, so I wonder why they do not orgasm?

I am not advocating for the practice or justifying it, but trying to not finding excuses for our sexual problems.

The clitoris is NOT the only sexually stimulating organ on the woman. (Kids leave the room now ) Women can get pleasure from just the touch of the earlobes, stroke of a back, sensations from their nipples, and many other 'spots' if you will, and it differs from woman to woman, only she knows what is her 'spot'.

PR chick you can do a google search and just type in G-spot, and you will find countless articles from medical journals, sex therapists, and other research that tell you this is the internal organ that causes orgasm. This spot was known by the Ancient Indians thousands of years before our European ancestors discovered it ( I wonder why In fact this spot is known to produce MULTIPLE orgasm.

And she did specifically ask "during sexual relations". You can't tell me you have never read an article on women that have faked orgasm because they were not being satisfied, even if she does have a clitoris, it's not an automatic guarantee of pleasure.

And if those stats Molly produced are correct, then I'm sure an odd 70% or more of Egyptian women are not achieving orgasm because they don't have a clitoris. Only they can answer for that. If one has never had there's removed, then how would they know unless they heard it from a woman who has. Yes many women have reported they loss all sexual desires, but as Molly pointed out, there are women with their clitoris intact that are sexually disfunctional.

Clitoral circumcision: Refers to the surgical procedure in which the hood of the females clitoris (called the clitoral prepuce) is removed. However, the term is often confused in modern day writings with ritual procedures performed in Egypt and in other countries as noted below. On the CIRCLIST website, we refer to female circumcision as only the removal of the hood of the clitoris unless otherwise noted.

Sunna circumcision: Consists of the removal of the tip of the clitoris, sometimes performed by cutting a hole in a piece of cloth and placing it over the area to be cut, limiting the size of the area. In certain cases the clitoris is just nicked with a knife or razor, in parts of Mexico and South America, the sign of the cross is cut into it. Sunna, in Arabic, means "tradition". The clitoral hood is also sometimes removed.

Clitoridectomy: sometimes referred to as excision, which involves the removal of the entire clitoris, rather than just the tip. The labia minora; the inside lips of the vagina are also sometimes removed, but the outer labia are left intact. The vaginal opening is left open and unchanged, rather than sewn together, as in the case of Pharaonic Circumcision.

Pharaonic Circumcision: the entire clitoris is removed, as well as the inner and outer labia (minora and majora), scraping of the sides of the vulva and then joining them together and sewing them up with thread or catgut, or sometimes closing them with thorns. A small opening is left in order that urine and menstrual blood may pass through. This is also sometimes referred to as infibulations. A woman who has had this procedure must be cut open to allow childbirth, and then is re-sewn to ensure faithfulness to her husband.

quote:

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Originally posted by AnotherNewMember:
The clitoris is NOT the only sexually stimulating organ on the woman. (Kids leave the room now ) Women can get pleasure from just the touch of the earlobes, stroke of a back, sensations from their nipples, and many other 'spots' if you will, and it differs from woman to woman, only she knows what is her 'spot'.

And she did specifically ask "during sexual relations". You can't tell me you have never read an article on women that have faked orgasm because they were not being satisfied, even if she does have a clitoris, it's not an automatic guarantee of pleasure.

I know of women that have had historectomies (sp), all of their insides removed, and can't function sexually without hormone pills, and others that are still achieving sexual fulfillment. It all depends on the woman, and of course the abilities of the man.(he he he, antivillain )

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quote:

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Originally posted by AnotherNewMember:
( I wonder why In fact this spot is known to produce MULTIPLE orgasm.
)

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quote:

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Originally posted by PRchick:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherNewMember:
[b] ( I wonder why In fact this spot is known to produce MULTIPLE orgasm.
)

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[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by PRchick:

ANW, this was in women who had their clitoris, not those who did not. The G spot reacts to the clitoris stimulation. Any woman knows that.

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PRC, the G-spot reacts to G-spot stimulation. Its NOT connected to the clitoris in any form whatsoever. Here's a diagram of a female body, I would suggest those that need to know their body better view it. I took sex education in school, I don't know about others.
http://www.lovenectar.com/images/female-border2.gif

The G-spot is vaginal(internal) and the clitoris is external. Some women react to clitoral stimulation, these type may be more likely to be stimulated by oral sex, and others need deep penetration, these are vaginal women. And others can have an orgasm just from kissing, nipple stimulation, etc. Female hormones (estrogen) affect our sexual desires, and the part of a womans body that secretes the fluids from an orgasm is the urethra, the clitoris does NOT release orgasmic fluid, it only stimulate sexual excitement, just like the nipples, g-spot, anal (for some), and other 'spots', what excites one woman does not necessarily excite another, because a great deal of it is also PSYCHOLOGICAL, not just physical.

So whatever SPOT, excites her is up to the individual woman. Its when you get so excited, or reach your sexual PEAK, is when an orgasm occurs, which is why some therapist suggest foreplay, as some women take longer to reach this peak than others. And many have no idea what excites them because masturbation (discovering herself) has always been seen as taboo.

And here is an encyclopedia article on the G-spot, named after the German gynecologist,Gräfenberg, that 'rediscovered ' it, for further reference:

"Stimulation of the G-spot (through the front wall of the vagina) is said to promote a more vigorous and satisfying orgasm (climax), and is possibly the cause of female ejaculation; however, it may be that not every woman has such a spot. See Skene's glands and urethral sponge for more information. Such stimulation requires a somewhat opposite thrust to that required to obtain maximal clitoral stimulation via the penis, called "riding high"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-spot

An orgasm, also known as a sexual climax, is a pleasurable psychological or emotional response to prolonged sexual stimulation. It is often accompanied by a notable physiological reaction, such as ejaculation, blushing or spasm.

Female: vulva (notably the clitoris), vagina (notably the cervix), labia, uterus, Fallopian tubes, ovaries, Skene's glands, Bartholin's glands.

More generally and popularly, the term sex organ refers to any part of the body involved in erotic pleasure. The larger list would certainly include the anus for either sex, the prepuce, the breasts (especially the nipples) for females, and the nipples for males.

The bottom line is, unless you DON'T have a clitoris, you can't say whether or not those women can still achieve orgasm without one. Science shows they can. The fluids from orgasms are NOT released through the clitoris, and it is NOT the only thing that sexually stimulates a woman. Again, I'm not advocating FGM, just pointing out our own biases of other culture's traditions.

Again I am not an advocate for FGM, nor trying to justify it or accept it on a cultural grounds. However, it so ignorant to support a statement that says that woman without clitoris can not orgasm.

In the case of woman with FGM, you can do clinical research to look, for example, at the effect of the practice on child labour, other obstetric complications, and/or the development of fistula. But you can NOT in a clinical setting observe/research the effect of the practice on orgasm and sexual pleasure.

The most accurate way measure that is through a comparative study " case control". In other words, you get 2 groups, Group 1 includes woman with FGM and Group 2 includes women with no FGM, and to study whether the woman with FGM has achieved orgasm or not in comparison to the woman with NO FGM. Taking into account that FGM Vs NO FGM in women is the only measured variable. It practically impossible to fix all variables, because there is physical attraction between couple, the physiological element, many others factors that is difficult to control for.

However, there are other research methods to looks at the issue, such as ethnographic, surveys and in-depth interviews. I can give some references to these studies, but this mean I have to do some digging myself. In you are interested, you can type on Google, FGM and sexual pleasure, and you will get some studies.

Cheers
Molly

Sexual pleasure can be experienced in many ways. There are a number of places that can excite women- but the most usual and best place to stimulate orgasm is the clitoris andthat is why God put it there and allowed it to give us pleasure.

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Originally posted by PRchick:
Your research is a FREE ONLINE encyclopedia? No clinical research? You can't be serious. And this is a serious issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sue333:

I totally agree with you Karah. The main issue here is- why? why do this? What way does the female benefit from this practice? It is her body that is mutilated for no other reason- that anyone has mentioned than male gratification or insecurity. Those are problems with the mans mind not the womans body. I totally understand there are different cultures and accept this and when this is done with total agreement by the woman- not because she has to but because she thinks it is right and can explain this, then that is more acceptable. It is my understanding that this happens to young girls and not women who are in a position to voice an opinion. These are my concerns. Every one has rights and it is tough enough in life to deal with the bad things that life throws at us, that mutilating children for mens gratification just doesnt seem to have much justification. I believe in education for cultures who have previously followed this tradition. If these women, have a choice, and could decide when they were married- having experienced sex with 'everything' in tact- I feel sure that they would not choice to have it removed.

Sexual pleasure can be experienced in many ways. There are a number of places that can excite women- but the most usual and best place to stimulate orgasm is the clitoris andthat is why God put it there and allowed it to give us pleasure.

A similar argument would be to remove a mans penis- he could still stimulate the woman in a number of ways but would not enjoy sex. lolol. I dont notice many men advocating that!!!!

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If it's someone's religion or tradition to have this done who are we to say otherwise. Why don't you say anything about the little babies in the developed countries having male circumcision, who aren't given a choice at birth. And what about all the dead fetuses scraped from its lifeline in the mothers wound, during an abortion, did someone give them a choice? (Another topic)

Have you ever spoken to any of these women? Most of them are okay with it, and their daughters look forward to it, it signifies their cross into womanhood, and it's THEIR tradition. These are other women doing this to girls,not men, because their mothers and thousands of generations before them did it. There is no scientific evidence to support the argument that they lose all sexual desires either.

And your argument that its comparable to removing the male penis it the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. A man cannot reproduce without his penis, and these women OBVIOUSLY can, without their clitoris. And as I pointed out above, ALL FGM's dont involve removing the clitoris, some only remove the foreskin or root.

Why not try to promote that its done in a clinical sterile environment to minimize serious health risks rather than snatch their historical traditions away from them altogether. Some people have customary celebrations and this occasion is considered sacred to them. We have to respect that whether we agree with it or not.

I guess the numbers just got to the heights where I do not distinguish any more

Now go see the thread
Why want Egyptian men be with foreign women?

Damn people make me sick!

quote:

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Originally posted by lynn:
I was aware that many times this procedure is performed by barbers. I had no idea that
it is so widespread. I have met a few women that have had this forced on them. I can not imagine anything more inhumane.

Lynn

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quote:

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Originally posted by dunes:
Here are some reasons why Egyptian Babes are preferred by some Foreign Men over Western Babes
(This does not apply to Western Women from Spain, Colombia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Southern
Italy and Turkey)

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You forgot Mexico
and plenty of others