posted
During my holiday in Sharm I met a man who owns a shop in the Sharm mall (near Hard Rock Cafe). He asked me out to dinner and we went to a nice purely Egyptian restaurant somewhere in Old Sharm. I was the only woman in the whole restaurant! I was wearing pants and a loose sweater with long sleeves, so I could not have been indecent, yet everyone was staring.
The guy was pleasant enough and we chatted away, yet I had a feeling I was being watched very closely. I followed the most conservative rules (we have them also in my country) of looking only at him, asking him for what I want instead of speaking to the waiter. There were tables to our left and to our right with customers and I had a feeling I couldn't look at them. The only thing I felt safe to ask about was the portrait of an old sheikh or holy man or whatever it was hanging on the wall above HIS head. The guy seemed pleased I asked and lectured me about the Koran for half an hour.
A few days later I suggested - and demonstrated - how he could get more business by allowing customers to study his merchandise first instead than jumping on them with "good price" offers before they even approached his shop. This earned me an introduction to his relatives.
My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
quote:Originally posted by Lori: My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
Any suggestion greatly appreciated. Lori
A well behaved woman does not date in Egyptian society fullstop. There is no concept of a pleasent night out alone with a man for the purposes of getting to know each other better. Sorry.
posted
nicely said Akshar. I just want to add...probably the reason everyone was staring at you was because you were the only woman and they were thinking that you were not respectable to be alone with a man. I can just bet that these men all were having wild imaginations about you. Shame on the man too, he should be preaching the Quran to himself instead of you. Seeing that he doesn't know much about his religion and he thinks it is okay for him to be alone with you.
Posts: 138 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ashkar, if a woman does not date in Egyptian society, then how does she meet anybody at all?
Of course parents sometimes present potential partners, but mostly people make their own choice ... don't they?
Of course if this is your culture I bow to that. Most of my friends would have a fit if they knew your reaction though, because in Europe what I did is very acceptable, even a little old-fashioned. When you come from a place where many young people wear shorts and tank tops on the streets, kiss and make out in public, and change partners like socks, it is a shock to see yourself berated for what would pass there for a prim and proper behavior.
I mean, we were only sitting down having a meal and a conversation, nothing else. It's not like we touched or anything.
Hopefully my comments don't offend anyone. It's just that the culture seems very different and I sincerely want to learn about it. How can I if no one tells me?
I want to visit Egypt in the future and I would like to know what I can and can't do. So tell me more about what women do. You seem to know the full etiquette.
quote:Originally posted by hafsa: nicely said Akshar. I just want to add...probably the reason everyone was staring at you was because you were the only woman and they were thinking that you were not respectable to be alone with a man. I can just bet that these men all were having wild imaginations about you. Shame on the man too, he should be preaching the Quran to himself instead of you. Seeing that he doesn't know much about his religion and he thinks it is okay for him to be alone with you.
Hafsa, thank you for your comment. It puzzles me then why he introduced me to his relatives. If he was a playboy, should I assume he introduces all the girls to his relatives? That's a bit much in terms of introductions
where can one find information about how to behave in Egypt? It seems it's so easy to do wrong while thinking the opposite...
posted
It is not my culture I am British born and bred. However I was married for 12 years in the UK to Syrian who died and I am now married to an Egyptian and going out there to live at the end of this month.
But thank you for the compliment I have obviously assimilated better than I had realised.
Yes it is a problem to meet people if you wnat to chose your own partner. Maybe in Cairo they have a solution but in the tourist resorts take it from me forget it.
When I was getting to know my Egyptian husband better I had a chaperon with me at all times. Having a 11 year old daughter is an advantage at times. We have only gone to local resturants and normally there is a a bigish group. Although Amira and I are usually the only tourists and women in our group there have always been plenty others in the resturant. But no Egyptian woman would have done that.
Mahmoud is very very careful of my honour and would never put me in the kind of situation you describe. In public no one would know that we were an item as this would be very dishounourable to me and reflect badly on our relationship. His friends and family always treat with respect and I work hard to try and do the same to them and their culture.
It's part of the Muslim Religion. If a Muslim follows the Quran to the letter, then a man and woman that are not related by blood or marriage will not spend any time alone - especially in public.
No matter if you had worn a giant sheet to make yourself covered and respectable, it would still be looked at as being wrong. It probably wasn't about what you were wearing, but the situation you were in.
Yes shorts, tank tops, kissing in public etc are very normal and acceptable in Europe, but in Egypt no.
The procedure for meeting a partner (which should be with the intention to marry) is that the man should approach the womans family and ask if he may "have her hand in marriage" (British term i think ) From here i'm not entirely clear what would happen but any contact would be supervised or chaperoned. There would be lots of other things involved like families meeting etc etc but i think you may get the general idea so far.
In saying all of the above, this is how it should be, but isn't always. I think that in some parts of Egypt, Egyptian men and women do "date", they just might not call it dating because it isn't right.
Your partner may have been trying to prove to you that you weren't just some tourist to him, by taking you to a restaurant mainly used by Egyptians, but it would have been better if he had taken you to a restaurant full of other tourists.
I wouldn't worry that you have offended anyone, you're not Egyptian and you're not Muslim so how would you know. European culture is very different to Egyptian culture. The good thing is that you're trying to find out exactly what the culture is, it will help if you intend to spend time in Egypt in the future.
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thank you so much for writing to me, you have some of the most interesting posts here, you should try writing a book about Egypt. The adventures of an intelligent European woman in Egypt ... no scar on the forehead required
Yes I am puzzled by Egyptian manners and this forum helped me wake up ... a bit
When I came to Sharm, I expected my Christian (Greek) Orthodox culture to be of help. It's a very conservative form of Christianity involving, by the way, elements of Jewish culture (two sets of dishes), Arabic culture (Ramadan-type fasting every Friday, covering your head, marrying a virgin etc). So I thought, I should be able to project a respectable image, right?
Wrong! Men (most Egyptians in Sharm are men anyway, I only saw one female nurse in the Sharm hospital, and a few women in the shopping mall) looked at us tourists as if we were whores, every one of us, married ones included. Sure they were friendly to our face, but I had an uncomfortable feeling they thought of us as being unclean in some way. Nothing helped - I tried covering myself like a nun, not smiling, talking business etc. I am surprised at myself I kept this bottled up for so long, because while there I can't say I was focusing on what men thought. I was far more interested in the sea, the trips, the colorful shops etc.
I thought that man was being honorable - actually he is SMS-ing me to this day to return to Egypt - but now I wonder whether he is not one of the playboys all women complain about. His face or name did not come up on any list, but if you say he did wrong by asking me out in public ... I don't know. I have not done anything I would not tell my mother, and yet it seems I misbehaved somehow.
Now I remember actually him asking me which type of place I prefer and me saying let's go to a local place, the touristy ones I can visit anytime with my friends. So maybe it's my fault ... is it
So WHAT on earth must I do next time? Not talk to anybody? Not smile? Buy a small tent to wear?
As you know yourself, Queen of the Pharaos, Egypt got under my skin, in my blood and thoughts and I will return, whether to Sharm or Cairo I do not know. I want to see Abu Simbel and all the nice temples, I want to live in Egypt for a while if I can. So, what to do?
Thank you for reading this, looking forward to your charming replies, Lori
PS By the way any male or female Egyptian available to comment on my lack of manners?
If I had a daughter I would call it Amira ... such a lovely name ... Princess ... if I had two daughters, I would call the second Yasmina, it is an equally charming name ... well done!
The website you mention is very, very good, and I can almost recite the part about Egypt. But still, each person is different and it is not easy to assess how someone will react just based on such a general description. And they have only very general advice on Muslim etiquette, since most of this info is targeted at non-Muslim women already in a relationship with an Arab.
Still, I can't recommend it enough for anyone willing to learn about Muslim culture.
By the way, since I returned from Egypt I keep meeting Egyptian people here. Most of them are married for papers, cheating on their wives as much as they can, pining for their home but berating the Egyptian system at the same time. Talk about double standards!
Tell me, how did you learn all you know - was it by doing, or did you have a chaperone or friend who helped you decode what passes for good manners in the Arab world?
posted
Thank you so much for your kind remarks. I hope you are ready for this because the answer is not short.
To be a bit of the wall for second I really believe that my whole life has been destined for Egypt. Kismet in Arabic.
I was luck enough to born into a very cosmopolitan family. My paternal grandfather was Cape Coloured from South Africa. He came to Britain around the First World War. As a coloured this was his first experience of mixing with White people at this was not allowed in South Africa Whites/Coloureds/Blacks were all segregated.
My paternal grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of some noble man, when she was pregnant with my dad she didn’t know where babies came from and this had to be explained to her. She was so shocked at her own ignorance she decided to teach the girls in her Sunday school a bit of sex education. As you can imagine this was a tad unusual in 1925.
On my maternal side they are a load of eccentrics as well. But let’s try and shorten this.
When I was young, in the 60’s we used to go on holiday abroad, this was big news but as my father speaks 28 languages we used to have a great time as who ever he spoke to in whatever country he knew the language.
My grandmother was mad about Egypt; my Dad served there during his army service. I was 9 when I first got interested; other kids were into Sindy I was into Nefertiti. With a background like that it is not surprising. We often used to talk that when my parents died and I inherited the house I would sell it and live in Egypt until the money ran out.
I married Amira’s dad who was Syrian, in 1990 while we were both involved in a religious cult. He had converted from Islam to Christianity in 1986 and suffered horrendous persecution as a result. I had got to know him because I wanted to learn Arabic because I wanted to live and enjoy Egypt more. By that time I had been there 3 times on study tours.
My brother in law lived in Egypt for several years and we went and visited him when Amira was 5 months old.
When Amira’s dad got cancer I went to Egypt with Amira for a holiday, he couldn’t travel. That is when I first met Mahmoud.
When he died after 12 years of marriage, I went back to my beloved Egypt again and met Mahmoud again. It was during that holiday that I first started thinking about living in Egypt. At that time on my own and kept bumping into people who were Western and lived there and said I should go for it. At the same time my relationship with my Mahmoud started and when I returned to the UK we spoke every day on the phone. By the Christmas holidays I knew I wanted to spend my life with him and we got married then. I have had to return to the UK to sort out a few things but will be moving there 31 July.
So to answer you question it is a combination of being cosmopolitan, open minded, being married to an Arab in the UK, having many Arab friends, educating my daughter to be bilingual, visiting Egypt for 24 years, reading and researching books and the internet.
In other words it doesn’t come just like that, like everything it takes a bit of work.!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Lori: Dear Ashkar,
If I had a daughter I would call it Amira ... such a lovely name ... Princess ... if I had two daughters, I would call the second Yasmina, it is an equally charming name ... well done!
The website you mention is very, very good, and I can almost recite the part about Egypt. But still, each person is different and it is not easy to assess how someone will react just based on such a general description. And they have only very general advice on Muslim etiquette, since most of this info is targeted at non-Muslim women already in a relationship with an Arab.
Still, I can't recommend it enough for anyone willing to learn about Muslim culture.
By the way, since I returned from Egypt I keep meeting Egyptian people here. Most of them are married for papers, cheating on their wives as much as they can, pining for their home but berating the Egyptian system at the same time. Talk about double standards!
Tell me, how did you learn all you know - was it by doing, or did you have a chaperone or friend who helped you decode what passes for good manners in the Arab world?
Don't be so hard on yourself. The fact that you seem so concious of not offending others probably means that you didn't offend half as much as you think. I was exactly the same when i first went to Egypt.. what can i wear, where can i go, should i speak to men lol should i cross the road if i see a group of men heading in my direction!!
Just imagine that some women/men visit Egypt and don't even think twice about continuing to doing what they do in Europe/America. I don't know what the tourism figures are for Egypt, but i bet you're a small fish in a big pond! You shouldn't let it stop you from enjoying your time in Egypt and everyone has to learn from their mistakes don't they?
Westerners have a bad name in Egypt but like you noticed Egyptians will be very nice and friendly to your face because they are very nice people - what is said after is not always nice . Just be yourself. If you decide to live in Egypt, then you will get to know the local people around you and i'm sure you won't feel so "watched" anymore. Although one of the foriegners i know that lives in Hurghada says that even after 8 years in Egypt she still gets treated like a tourist by some!
I strongly recommend that you see as much of Egypt as you can, i'm sure you will love it all! Of course you can speak to people.... you can try not to speak to anyone and see how long it lasts!! Not even 5 minutes!!
As you may have noticed from this forum, just be careful with SOME of the men. They're not ALL the same.... some of them say "are all your fingers the same?......No......Just like all Egyptian men are not the same"
Egypt under the skin.....oh so true! I am planning to return to Egypt next week and i sit everyday and try to convince myself to go somewhere else....go to the Carribean Michelle, go to America Michelle, go to some other Middle Eastern country Michelle..... but no, i can't bear not to return to Egypt!!
Whatever you do... live or visit, i wish you all the best.
(Why don't you visit www.egypt-talk.com which is another forum. There are some really nice people there - Egyptians, Expats and visitors)
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
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I've had that experience myself recently - when my friends and work colleagues are taking summer holiday leave just now and are asking me what my holiday plans are?
People are suggesting a trip round Europe, a week on the French Riveria or a small hotel in mountain area in Italy or a relaxing beach holiday in Barbados.
But there's something inside me, something that answers "Egypt" every time.
I don't know why I don't go somewhere else on holiday this year and promise myself to Egypt next year. I just can't seem to be away from the country for more than 8 months or so.
I think we have a sickness for Egypt and don't want to be cured.
posted
sorry for offtop...just want to share few thoughts..im curious, maybe its true, that
people who love Egypt come to this world already having this love inside their souls...it just takes some time to realise this...
maybe all these people were living there in their "previous" lives and thats why they belong there?
what u guys think ?
Lori, are u scared or am i wrong ? relax - egyptian traditions are not so hard to understand... just dont be affraid - and everything will be ok. u are reading all this information -its very helpfull, but u wont understand how exactly to act in your case just reading the forums and asking people. maybe im wrong, but "the key to open the door" is listening to your heart and u will know how to act in any situation
good luck
[This message has been edited by SHERBET (edited 01 July 2003).]
Posts: 96 | From: russia | Registered: May 2003
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Thank you so much for the interesting storie - why you could make a movie from this!
As for me, I am Romanian living in the Czech Republic, have traveled all over Europe and the USA. Engaged to a wonderful Scot whom I lost to cancer. So far, he has proven impossible to replace, at least in my heart.
Romania had to defend itself from Turks for hundreds of years. They used to invade the southern part of the country (NOT the Dracula part for those who heard of Transylvania) kill the men, steal young beautiful women for their harems, steal the children for their special armed forces called "yenicher" and pillage everything. The name "Muslim" is forever associated in our minds with Turks. Now, of course, we only kept nice memories and recipes - baklava, imambaialdi, sherbet, baba ganoush are part of our national cuisine. So is wonderful coffee, so difficult to find in the Czech Republic, but so great in Egypt.
I have great interest in ancient civilizations. We have been invaded and occupied by the Romans, and especially by the Black Sea there are lots of lovely ruins, but of course nothing like Egypt.
Funny enough, all through last year I thought of Egypt, not sure why. I have an Egyptian Tarot so I know all about their gods and goddesses. I've seen "The Mummy" both 1 and 2. But when I arrived in Egypt it felt like coming home.
Thanks again for the story, hope to hear from you.
Where is Egypt are you going this time? Will you be online during your stay?
I am now changing jobs so technically speaking I could come in August for a couple of weeks, but I would have to come alone again and am not so sure it's a good idea. Would be great to meet some of the nice people in this forum.
A friend of mine went to Morocco for two weeks and she found it charming. She insisted I go there. Maybe I will, one day, but my love stays with Egypt.
Not sure about always having loved Egypt ... who knows, if you believe in reincarnation it could mean you lived in Egypt in another life. I did have a nightmare in which someone was trying to convince me that it's better if I take poison and die. They showed me my future coffin, and lo and behold, there was a small coffin painted or embroideded with the goddess Isis and a larger coffin with paintings of Anubis .... who knows, maybe I'll discover my own mummy in the Cairo Museum
Yes I am scared ... I met this guy in Sharm, and now I read this forum and I wonder whether it's not the same guy another girl was talking about, because he does have a brother in Sharm and they have a shop together. I am not even sure I want to know.
Now, with or without him, I will still return to Egypt. But what can I do there? I wanted to open a salon in Sharm because I think tourists need services, how about cosmetics hairdressing bellydancing astrology? Anyone interested?
If interested write to me at sandal_wood@hotmail.com.
quote:Originally posted by SHERBET: sorry for offtop...just want to share few thoughts..im curious, maybe its true, that
people who love Egypt come to this world already having this love inside their souls...it just takes some time to realise this...
maybe all these people were living there in their "previous" lives and thats why they belong there?
what u guys think ?
I can't/won't believe in reincarnation, it is not logical, I am a hard headed business woman. So how do I explain this sense of coming home that some else mentioned. Also between me and Mahmoud there is so much there that seems to have been there for ever. Mahmoud swears that we have been together in a previous life and that I was Egyptian. Some of the things I do and say he can't believe any total Westener could come up with.I feel Egypt is my kismet but why? There is something, there has to be something but what it was I don't know.
Not sure about always having loved Egypt ... who knows, if you believe in reincarnation it could mean you lived in Egypt in another life. I did have a nightmare in which someone was trying to convince me that it's better if I take poison and die. They showed me my future coffin, and lo and behold, there was a small coffin painted or embroideded with the goddess Isis and a larger coffin with paintings of Anubis .... who knows, maybe I'll discover my own mummy in the Cairo Museum
Yes I am scared ... I met this guy in Sharm, and now I read this forum and I wonder whether it's not the same guy another girl was talking about, because he does have a brother in Sharm and they have a shop together. I am not even sure I want to know.
Now, with or without him, I will still return to Egypt. But what can I do there? I wanted to open a salon in Sharm because I think tourists need services, how about cosmetics hairdressing bellydancing astrology? Anyone interested?
If interested write to me at sandal_wood@hotmail.com.
Peace, Lori
Hello Lori,
since im muslim its hard for me to believe in reincornation even ive been reading alot about other religions...but i have a weird feeling (i feel this way since my first step on the egyptian land and the first breath of the air) that ive been there before.
my fiance has a brother also and he owns a shop in sharm too.
i was thinking about a salon there too - and about a little clothes store. i mean not touristic souveneer clothes.
or a cosmetic store.
ill email u
Posts: 96 | From: russia | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by wise_woman: Hi Nefertiti,
I've had that experience myself recently - when my friends and work colleagues are taking summer holiday leave just now and are asking me what my holiday plans are?
People are suggesting a trip round Europe, a week on the French Riveria or a small hotel in mountain area in Italy or a relaxing beach holiday in Barbados.
But there's something inside me, something that answers "Egypt" every time.
I don't know why I don't go somewhere else on holiday this year and promise myself to Egypt next year. I just can't seem to be away from the country for more than 8 months or so.
I think we have a sickness for Egypt and don't want to be cured.
Hi Wise
I still haven't bought my ticket yet!! I'm waiting for inspiration to come to me on which other country to go to.... but you're right, we don't want to be cured!!
The day someones figures out what keeps us returning to Egypt.... please post the answer here!
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
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Where is Egypt are you going this time? Will you be online during your stay?
I am now changing jobs so technically speaking I could come in August for a couple of weeks, but I would have to come alone again and am not so sure it's a good idea. Would be great to meet some of the nice people in this forum.
A friend of mine went to Morocco for two weeks and she found it charming. She insisted I go there. Maybe I will, one day, but my love stays with Egypt.
Will you go alone to Egypt?
Write back please.
Warm wishes, Lori
Hi Lori
The plan is for me to go back to Hurghada Insha'allah. I'm not 100% sure if i will stay there... i would really like to travel around again. I will be online sometimes although not as often as i am now.... usually i check my emails everyday, but not these forums.
I will be going alone.... each time i have been to Egypt i have been on my own. In Hurghada i have a group of female friends so we meet during the day or evening when we can. I know some of the Egyptian guys in Hurghada too. In some of the other towns/cities in Egypt i know the odd person here and there, like Aswan, Cairo and Alexandria.
You will be fine if you decide to go alone... i was worried my first time, but that only lasted until i arrived in Egypt - it was the 1st time i had ever travelled alone! All it means is that you may sometimes have to eat alone, but that's not often. No doubt people will come and talk to you and you will have a job to get rid of them! When seeing the sites, sometimes being alone is best, because you can take your time and if you join a group to do the tours you meet people then aswell.
I'm sure you can meet up with some of us from the forum, just post here nearer the time and you'll see what's going on. Debbie, one of the members organises things in Cairo like Felluca trips and walks in the desert. She posts on here, but i think she posts more on Egypt-Talk.
I'm sure you will have a good time whatever you decide to do
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by akshar: Also between me and Mahmoud there is so much there that seems to have been there for ever. Mahmoud swears that we have been together in a previous life and that I was Egyptian. Some of the things I do and say he can't believe any total Westener could come up with.I feel Egypt is my kismet but why? There is something, there has to be something but what it was I don't know.
you are reading my mind, akshar...
i mean when im reading this - its like i said these words... and my guy told me the same things
80
[This message has been edited by SHERBET (edited 03 July 2003).]
Posts: 96 | From: russia | Registered: May 2003
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I have recently just come back to this board and I could not believe the sort of responses you have had! I am outraged! I am moving to sharm at the end of august to live with my husband and I do know what you feel. I have been to the same place in ols sharm and like you was wearing the right clothes but my hubby sais they always stare but it it true if you are not married they so see you as a whore which is sad but that is the way it is. are u going back there at all?
quote:Originally posted by Lori: During my holiday in Sharm I met a man who owns a shop in the Sharm mall (near Hard Rock Cafe). He asked me out to dinner and we went to a nice purely Egyptian restaurant somewhere in Old Sharm. I was the only woman in the whole restaurant! I was wearing pants and a loose sweater with long sleeves, so I could not have been indecent, yet everyone was staring.
The guy was pleasant enough and we chatted away, yet I had a feeling I was being watched very closely. I followed the most conservative rules (we have them also in my country) of looking only at him, asking him for what I want instead of speaking to the waiter. There were tables to our left and to our right with customers and I had a feeling I couldn't look at them. The only thing I felt safe to ask about was the portrait of an old sheikh or holy man or whatever it was hanging on the wall above HIS head. The guy seemed pleased I asked and lectured me about the Koran for half an hour.
A few days later I suggested - and demonstrated - how he could get more business by allowing customers to study his merchandise first instead than jumping on them with "good price" offers before they even approached his shop. This earned me an introduction to his relatives.
My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
I have recently just come back to this board and I could not believe the sort of responses you have had! I am outraged! I am moving to sharm at the end of august to live with my husband and I do know what you feel. I have been to the same place in ols sharm and like you was wearing the right clothes but my hubby sais they always stare but it it true if you are not married they so see you as a whore which is sad but that is the way it is. are u going back there at all?
Hi Thomas,
Thank you for asking such a thoughtful question. Since I asked the board a question, I opened the floor for any kind of answer, and I guess I got honest and well-intended answers, even if I sometimes didn't like what I read.
Yes, to my European mind it is unfair to sit in a restaurant, decently dressed, with a man you don't even touch, and still be thought less than honorable.
I don't know if they could tell we were not married, cuz our Egyptian guide for example is married to a Czech woman who wears exactly the same clothes as I do.
Of course I intend to return to Egypt. Without a doubt. And I do like Sharm El Sheikh a lot. What I will do next time will be to stay away from such places as that restaurant, and maybe go in groups with other men and women, so women can sit at one table and men at another, I've seen this done in Cairo by respectable-looking Egyptians. I will not see that guy again although he is still pleading with me, because as an Egyptian he should have known better and not put me in such a situation.
And last but not least, I will invite nice people such as yourself to a nice cup of coffee! How about it?
posted
Hello again! that would be geat. I am moving back on the 21 august but I am pretty freaked out as I am really not sure I am doing the right then but what the heck! life is too short.
I think it is a great idea to open a shop. there are so many european women there and NO clothes shops and hardressers etc/
it would also be a good idea to offer a service like this in person so we can help women is the same situation as us.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Lori: Hi Thomas,
Thank you for asking such a thoughtful question. Since I asked the board a question, I opened the floor for any kind of answer, and I guess I got honest and well-intended answers, even if I sometimes didn't like what I read.
Yes, to my European mind it is unfair to sit in a restaurant, decently dressed, with a man you don't even touch, and still be thought less than honorable.
I don't know if they could tell we were not married, cuz our Egyptian guide for example is married to a Czech woman who wears exactly the same clothes as I do.
Of course I intend to return to Egypt. Without a doubt. And I do like Sharm El Sheikh a lot. What I will do next time will be to stay away from such places as that restaurant, and maybe go in groups with other men and women, so women can sit at one table and men at another, I've seen this done in Cairo by respectable-looking Egyptians. I will not see that guy again although he is still pleading with me, because as an Egyptian he should have known better and not put me in such a situation.
And last but not least, I will invite nice people such as yourself to a nice cup of coffee! How about it?
I'm glad you guys got this string going again. I guess I missed it when you started it.
I have to add my 2 cents worth, for what it is worth.
Sharm el Sheikh is a tourist resort. Any foreigners there will ALWAYS and FOREVER be viewed as NOT LOCALS, and women will ALWAYS be viewed by those that don't know them personally, as whores and meal tickets. That is just the way it is. It doesn't matter how you dress or behave, the reputation has been cast in stone for us by zillions of tourist women that have gone before us.
I am willing to bet that within 6 months after Thomas gets there, that she will tell us that (again) those that don't know her well, still give her the "look" and assume she is not a "clean and good woman". Of course those that get to know you, can't say the same thing, but the general thinking is that foreigners (particularly or primarily women) go to Sharm el Sheikh for a wild sex crazed holiday and the boys are there to give it to them, so it is a well earned reputation. Egyptian men don't tend to be able to look at a woman out with an Egyptian man and clearly distinguish if she is a whore or just a naive tourist out for a meal. It isn't within their capability to do so. The fact that you went to the balady restaurant had nothing to do with it, except that you had more Egyptian men there to look at you. If you'd gone to a tourist spot then the same thing would have been thought about you by those Egyptian men there, but most of the Egyptian men there would have had their own date that they thought the same thing of.
Of course as someone said, not all Egyptian men are the same, and I am certain that there must be one or two good ones up in Sharm, but by the same token that they think most foreign women are whores and the ticket to a better life, I am going to generalize about them. I know they aren't all the same, the same way all of us foreign women aren't the same.
My advise to you would be to take Sharm with a grain of salt though. We (those of us that live in Egypt) definately don't consider Sharm part of Egypt. It is our get-away from Egypt. Next time you come, come to Cairo and see all the other areas of Egypt. There are no shortage of men in Cairo or around that would love to take you out to dinner too, and you may find it a bit easier to deal with.
Bottom line though is that no matter how long we live here, we will always look like we just got off the boat, and there will always be those that have preconceived ideas about us. All we can do is behave well, and encourage this behavior by other tourists, I guess.
Good luck on future trips, and look me up if you do decide to come to Cairo.
quote:Originally posted by Lori: During my holiday in Sharm I met a man who owns a shop in the Sharm mall (near Hard Rock Cafe). He asked me out to dinner and we went to a nice purely Egyptian restaurant somewhere in Old Sharm. I was the only woman in the whole restaurant! I was wearing pants and a loose sweater with long sleeves, so I could not have been indecent, yet everyone was staring.
The guy was pleasant enough and we chatted away, yet I had a feeling I was being watched very closely. I followed the most conservative rules (we have them also in my country) of looking only at him, asking him for what I want instead of speaking to the waiter. There were tables to our left and to our right with customers and I had a feeling I couldn't look at them. The only thing I felt safe to ask about was the portrait of an old sheikh or holy man or whatever it was hanging on the wall above HIS head. The guy seemed pleased I asked and lectured me about the Koran for half an hour.
A few days later I suggested - and demonstrated - how he could get more business by allowing customers to study his merchandise first instead than jumping on them with "good price" offers before they even approached his shop. This earned me an introduction to his relatives.
My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
quote:Originally posted by Lori: During my holiday in Sharm I met a man who owns a shop in the Sharm mall (near Hard Rock Cafe). He asked me out to dinner and we went to a nice purely Egyptian restaurant somewhere in Old Sharm. I was the only woman in the whole restaurant! I was wearing pants and a loose sweater with long sleeves, so I could not have been indecent, yet everyone was staring.
The guy was pleasant enough and we chatted away, yet I had a feeling I was being watched very closely. I followed the most conservative rules (we have them also in my country) of looking only at him, asking him for what I want instead of speaking to the waiter. There were tables to our left and to our right with customers and I had a feeling I couldn't look at them. The only thing I felt safe to ask about was the portrait of an old sheikh or holy man or whatever it was hanging on the wall above HIS head. The guy seemed pleased I asked and lectured me about the Koran for half an hour.
A few days later I suggested - and demonstrated - how he could get more business by allowing customers to study his merchandise first instead than jumping on them with "good price" offers before they even approached his shop. This earned me an introduction to his relatives.
My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
Any suggestion greatly appreciated. Lori
Lori, I disagree with most of the responses you got, there is dating in Egypt, It does exist. The question is>>what class are you dating...men who are hungry for sex after buying you a meal or men who appreciate good time and a Drink out. Don't justify good people by a smile, look more into their backgrounds.
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Hi Debbie, I'm glad you're back, haven't seen your posts in a while
Hi Moshko, and hi everybody else reading this!
I would like to make a few things clear:
1. Yes, I am the only person I know who has been to Sharm el Sheikh. Sure, now I made friends with the people who went with me at the same time, but when I went to Sharm I was a total greenhorn. I only chose Sharm because my colleague who went to Hurghada one month before me told me Hurghada was dirty, and that she heard Sharm was cleaner and better. (She went to Hurghada with her fiance and is totally oblivious to any sex stuff going on there.)
So this is how I came to Sharm. I had absolutely no idea of its reputation, and I certainly had no intention to go on a sex holiday or anything like that.
2. The guy who asked me out was simply interested to know me better. He grilled me about my family, our religion and how I view family life and other such things. Oh yes, and if I had any sexual partners, how many etc. By this time I was feeling uneasy and getting fidgety and I guess he got offended cuz under his Inquisition-style questioning I forgot to eat and left most of the food on the plate, even it was delicious. He was staring at me, everyone was staring at me and I just wanted to vanish into the floor.
This is why I asked you guys about what I seemed to have done wrong.
3. HE PAID FOR DINNER and never expected me to pay for anything.
4. He calls me even now and tells me the whole romantic stuff all of you say it's bullshit.
I can't take any time off just now cuz I'm changing jobs and have used up all my holidays. Otherwise I'd be in Sharm trying to understand what happened.
I can't say I was in love with the guy, in all honesty he was a bit scary with his questioning, I was wondering if he asks such questions now that we're still strangers what would he do once we're closer.
I did fall in love with Egypt and I do want to see everything my dream is to see Abu Simbel, would you believe I rent The Mummy and The Mummy Returns every week just so I'd catch a glimpse of Egypt.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lori: [B]Hi Debbie, I'm glad you're back, haven't seen your posts in a while
Lori, I couldn't agree with you more about Sharm, I spend most of my time there. I come straight from abroad to Sharm airport. Such a lovely place. I agree about Hurgada too, I don't like it much. I will be in Sharm by the end of this month, come on over and join up for a second experience.
posted
Dear Lori, i wonder how old you are, and the age of the man you met in Sharm. my guess is that he was asking all those questions about you because he was curious. also the other egyptians in the restaurant were probably staring at you simply because you were foreigner and they were curious to see how a foreign woman (or man)acts, behaves, i don't think they necessarily thought bad of you; Foreign women just look soo exotic (and beautiful ) Next time you come to egypt, please let me know Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Hi Lori, I agree with Debbie, don't consider Sharm as part of Egypt.
I believe that such behavior is most prevalent in tourist areas because the men feel as though they can take advantage of foreign women and the women will have no one to turn to for help. Further more, I believe that a lot of foreign women also take advantage of this situation, since they are in a different country and no one from home needs to know how they behave. This, in turn, encourages the men to act in such manner: They feel as though they can do more with all women.
Now about dating, my advice to any foreign wishing to marry an Arab: 1- Learn everything you can about their country and religion. Learn to speak Arabic fluently and cook well. Have the patience of Job. Be flexible and trust in God because God is the best of planners. 2- Study the culture, faith and him. Get to know him well by having discussions about the big issues such as gender roles, child raising, holidays, etc. and see if you are truly compatible. 3- Know that BOTH have to make compromises. If it is only one-sided it will lead to resentment. Draw your boundaries early on. 4- Take your time, don't rush into it. Don't be blinded by the mystery of the Arab male.
Be careful. Arabs are very nice, they are very charming, but unfortunately, as in the case among European men too, they could change in the end. So, wait and see. But if he is open-minded, the woman can have a very nice life with him. If he is strict, there will be problems for sure. The woman will be under pressure all the time. She would have to change all her life, and this is not easy after so many years of being raised up in a different culture.
Dating does exist in Egypt but among certain classes and not others (big class divide in Egypt). Probably the man you met had not dated before. He took you to a baladi restaurant because he couldn't afford the more expensive foreigner-frequented ones. Egyptians are naturally curious and even taxi drivers will find out your whole life story (if you're willing to give it) before you reach your destination. They will also stare at you.
Don't analyze or read too much into your experience. They're not necessarily thinking bad of you, they're just curious. Be curious back and don't get paranoid! I've been living in Egypt over 20 years and would not be offended by what happened to you. As others have said, Sharm is different. It is a fairly new town, geered for tourists, so not many Egyptian families are settled there, single men go to find work. This makes it a somewhat unnatural Egyptian environment.
posted
Well - what an informative list of reading. I and my friend love Egypt we have visited three times this year already and planning to go back in a couple of months time. Our plan is to visit as many areas in Egypt as we can. So far we have have just visited Luxor and Cairo and of course the Nile cruise. We are openly friendly and speak and laugh with the Egyptians in fact we treat all people as our equalls where ever we are. Yes I am aware they are curious about us but I too am sooooooooo curious about them, I long to know every thing about the modern day Egypt and people. While on my Nile cruise the manager took a liking to me and I thought he was nice too - I sat with him some times and chatted over tea. He kissed me several times - he appeared so hungry for passionate kissing and any thing else for that matter and said how much he loved me. I have to say at this point I allowed him to kiss me but I was not interested in any thing else be it words of love or sex. Simply because I was not looking for a man, love or sex I was there to love Egypt. I have been married have 2 grown up children and I now want to follow my dream and that dream is the country of Egypt. So I do what I feel is right for me, I treat every one with respect. I know I am not a whore or have bad morals. That knowledge about my self gives me strength. That's my advice to any one. If others think badly of me because I am a Western tourist then it is sad, but I am not going to worry about it or ignore the Egyptian people. I am trying to learn as much as I can every time I visit Egypt. It is perhaps easier for me as I do not travel alone and although I am fair my friend is often taken as Egptian, which is a great delight to her!
Posts: 100 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Also, they would probably find it odd to see a western woman in an all egyptian restaurant. i will tell you a personal story to give you an example. Some years ago i happened to be in a restaurant and i saw two european girls sitting in a table with some others. they were the only westerners in the restaurant and me and my friends were staring at them (poor girls) along with all others bad habit i know but you know me and my friends were not thinking bad about the girls, in all honestly we found it flattering that they chose an egyptian restaurant. So do not assume that all egyptians that stare at you think bad. To tell you the truth when i was staring at them i thought: how nice girls they are not western snobs that only eat at tourist places and the kind that repeatedly moans about how bad and dirty everything is in egypt.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptian Prince: Dear Lori, i wonder how old you are, and the age of the man you met in Sharm. my guess is that he was asking all those questions about you because he was curious. also the other egyptians in the restaurant were probably staring at you simply because you were foreigner and they were curious to see how a foreign woman (or man)acts, behaves, i don't think they necessarily thought bad of you; Foreign women just look soo exotic (and beautiful ) Next time you come to egypt, please let me know
Dear Egyptian Prince, It is not me who thinks Egyptian guys think bad of foreign women, it is others who said and confirmed this stereotype.
Of course we are all curious about each other and especially when two foreigners meet they want to see whether the other person is a human being like they are.
However, please correct me if I'm wrong, but questions regarding one's sex life are taboo in most cultures. And if a taxi driver would need to know how many sex partners I've had if he is to drive me to my destination, I would rather wait for another taxi.
Until coming to Egypt, I experienced people from some cultures being nosy from a financial point of view, i.e. asking how much money you make or how much money your clothes / shoes cost etc. They thought they were making casual conversation But sex-related questions as casual conversation, sorry, not accepted.
As for other men staring because I was a tourist, why Sharm is full of tourists, they should be used by now.
As a foreign guy in Egypt I've experienced many problems too... not that I've been able to date, because Egyptian women seem very wary of Western men and so the concept of me having a relationship over here seems non-existent.... but hey, maybe that will change! Because I'm late 20s and single i also have the problem of gay men offering their services far too frequently - it actually caused me to cut my holiday in Aswan short because I'd reached my cut-off point!
As a foreign guy in Egypt I've experienced many problems too... not that I've been able to date, because Egyptian women seem very wary of Western men and so the concept of me having a relationship over here seems non-existent.... but hey, maybe that will change! Because I'm late 20s and single i also have the problem of gay men offering their services far too frequently - it actually caused me to cut my holiday in Aswan short because I'd reached my cut-off point!
quote:Originally posted by Lori: During my holiday in Sharm I met a man who owns a shop in the Sharm mall (near Hard Rock Cafe). He asked me out to dinner and we went to a nice purely Egyptian restaurant somewhere in Old Sharm. I was the only woman in the whole restaurant! I was wearing pants and a loose sweater with long sleeves, so I could not have been indecent, yet everyone was staring.
The guy was pleasant enough and we chatted away, yet I had a feeling I was being watched very closely. I followed the most conservative rules (we have them also in my country) of looking only at him, asking him for what I want instead of speaking to the waiter. There were tables to our left and to our right with customers and I had a feeling I couldn't look at them. The only thing I felt safe to ask about was the portrait of an old sheikh or holy man or whatever it was hanging on the wall above HIS head. The guy seemed pleased I asked and lectured me about the Koran for half an hour.
A few days later I suggested - and demonstrated - how he could get more business by allowing customers to study his merchandise first instead than jumping on them with "good price" offers before they even approached his shop. This earned me an introduction to his relatives.
My question is, what are the manners of a well-behaved woman in Egypt while dating? I do not necessarily mean dating for marriage, just how to behave in Egyptian society so you are respected and not considered loose, a sex tourist and other such nasty things before you've even opened your mouth?
Any suggestion greatly appreciated. Lori
I was browsing through the internet yesterday evening, looking up Orfi Marriage contracts when I came across this site quite by accident, after about an hour of reading all the messages I thought that I would like to join this debate. I read and understood your concerns, but I would like to say that really you shouldn't get too wound up. I have been involved with an Egyptian man for a while now (Egypt can really get to you in a big way,I have visited the place many times!)and have travelled around the country with him,eaten in cafe's and restaurants with him and just generally been seen around with him.I have even stayed at his home. We recently decided to take out an orfi contract because we felt like sharing a hotel room together. I know this is probably not answering your quetions about dating Egyptian men, but what I'm trying to say in a clumsy way is don't get too hung up about what people appear to be thinking, just relax and enjoy the company. You know who you are and more important what you are. In my experience Egyptian people are extremely friendly on the whole (odd exeptions)and are naturaly curious about us non Egyptians. Get to know some women if you can,their company is such a pleasure. I personally don't think that there any particular sets of manners involved only the ones that we should all have for each other.Obviously the Muslim culture can appear to be a bit daunting at times, but a little research with point you in the right direction. I'm sorry that you felt uncomfortable on your date,perhaps your friend chose the wrong venue. I hope that you will return inchAllah and not let things put you off. Take good care.
Posts: 14 | From: uk | Registered: Aug 2003
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If you don't mind I would like to ask you whether relationship with your egyptian friend lasts or not.
And have you visited Egypt again or not yet? If yes which places have you been to?
Please, please, please!!!!!
WOW my very first post thanks for diging it up you should see me I have a BIG SMILE and my eyes got all misty - seriously now.
This year has been a big challenge for me from a job point of view and I am sorry to say I could not find the time YET to jump in the plane and head for Golden Egypt. There is no day when I do not think of it. The neighbours all sing "habibi ya nour el ain" when they see me and I guess I will have to distribute Amr Diab Cds to them since I am changing the flat at the end of the month and they will miss my music (at least so I think. Or maybe not, maybe they'll throw a party and dance on Scooter, who knows hehehe)
The "relationship" with the Egy guy has not survived. First of all it was not a relationship, as I did not allow it to develop to this point. You can't dream of one person forever based on the fact that you went to dinner together once. Yes we are still in contact - very rarely - but he lost the faith I will return to Egypt.
I am SURE I will return to Egypt. If I go to Sharm again and if I will be unnatached at the time, I will pass by his shop and say hi. If I will be with my boyfriend - what can I say, some things are better left to the imagination.
I went to egypt in june to marry and your right about there customs, they are so differnt then what im used to...in where i live everyone waves and says hi to everyone, regardless of what gender you are...and this is kind of funny, but my husband and i were staying at the red sea way up north, and once i went out looking for sea shells by myself and was looking for one particular kind called a sand dollar..this one eyptian local saw me and couldnt speak english but came over to me while i was in the water so i showed him what i was looking for so he started helping me find this shell...i'll try to make this short, but the next day he was waiting for me with another shell and i told my husband he was just being nice so my husband went and got the shell for me, i wasn't allowed to walk over to him or talk to him....this is so different then here...then the next day we went out and i saw him waving so i waved and said hello, and my husband yells at me and says "don't wave and say hi to him, you will look like a whore", lol.....my god i could of died and said you've got to be kidding me...i think there are alot of customs there that i have yet to learn and i told my husband if he didn't want me to look like a whore then he should teach me there customs...so from then on whenever we went out in public he told me everything i should and should not do, lol..
but i think if i was single, i would just enjoy life and myself and not worry so much, but at the same time try to find some girl to hang out with and not go anywhere alone with a guy, like make sure your friend is always with you or something....
quote:Originally posted by Lori: WOW my very first post thanks for diging it up you should see me I have a BIG SMILE and my eyes got all misty - seriously now.
This year has been a big challenge for me from a job point of view and I am sorry to say I could not find the time YET to jump in the plane and head for Golden Egypt. There is no day when I do not think of it. The neighbours all sing "habibi ya nour el ain" when they see me and I guess I will have to distribute Amr Diab Cds to them since I am changing the flat at the end of the month and they will miss my music (at least so I think. Or maybe not, maybe they'll throw a party and dance on Scooter, who knows hehehe)
The "relationship" with the Egy guy has not survived. First of all it was not a relationship, as I did not allow it to develop to this point. You can't dream of one person forever based on the fact that you went to dinner together once. Yes we are still in contact - very rarely - but he lost the faith I will return to Egypt.
I am SURE I will return to Egypt. If I go to Sharm again and if I will be unnatached at the time, I will pass by his shop and say hi. If I will be with my boyfriend - what can I say, some things are better left to the imagination.
Does this answer your question?
Take care, Lori
LORI, Thanks for your prompt answer I hope you'll be great and very soon get to Egypt. As our dreams usually come true soon or less... As for "relationship" based only on one-evening date why not? Actually, it was exactly like my case (but another city, time and place). We met, talked, then next day met again, then i left and in two months we met again... finalemente, can't imagine our life without each other.. But anyway, wanted may be to hear HAPPY END of your story
quote:Originally posted by Jamilah: Thats right EXPLORER!!!!! I'm quiet agree with you and support this way of life. There is nothing better just being yourself
What if being yourself means that you're not shy and you like to be friendly with new people and to strike up conversation with them?? I'm worried about the day I visit Egypt I will be grabbed up by Egyptian police for suspicious acts! I guess I have a lot to learn about acceptable behavior before I go, huh? I don't want to look like a prostitute in the eyes of native Egyptians!
Where I come from (and it's not Egypt), people believe that we do have self-control, and do not assume that if a woman and a man meet, especially in public, that must mean they will immediately start doing something shameful. We are not animals.
That being said however, it is considered totally wrong to spend time alone with total strangers while married or in a serious relationship. You would not be called a whore (shame on your husband for calling you that!) but your husband is likely to get angry and demand an explanation.
This is why I said I would not be visiting my dinner date if I would be in a relationship. It would not be proper any more.
posted
HI Lori, I have to put my 2 cents in . I am American living in Cairo, and I get long looks too and I am married, I have blonde hair and green eyes, and I am an older woman, but I know why I get looks, its due to the difference of the skin and eyes, here 99 percent are black hair and brown eyes so when you see something totally different they look. I feel its the location you are in also down there it's known that Egyptian men go there to be free from the ordinary customs of Cairo, and I know a few guys who go there to meet foreigners to enjoy the evenings with where in Cairo they can't do this. I have had business dates with men, with out my husband and I never got any looks that were mean, only looking at me due to the way I look I am a Muslim as well. Just enjoy yourself and I am sure if you were in Cairo it would feel different for you and going out with a man alone in Cairo is not a crime, business people do it all the time. its the 21 century. Islam is in the heart and life has to be dealt with, I am sure others won't understand my point due to not walking in my shoes. Thats all folks just my 2 cents.
Posts: 49 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2003
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
) From here i'm not entirely clear what would happen but any contact would be supervised or chaperoned. There would be lots of other things involved like families meeting etc etc but i think you may get the general idea so far.
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