I spoke briefly to a lady from Jordan who had met and married an English guy, both living here in the UK. She mentioned that if you do meet and marry (not Orfi)an Egyptian the Christian guys are less strict with their wives than the Muslims. What do you all think?
Also can we please have some real stories of people who have meet and married Egyptians. Not the Orfi but real marriages. There must be some out there! and very happy ones too!
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Who cares whether they are strict or not as long as you are happy with the way they are, if you like the fact they are strict(whatever that means) then fine if not then dont marry them.
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Hello-interesting question you asked...I'm married to an Egyptian Christian Copt. You've heard right, they are more lenient, but still expect their women to behave, dress and act respectfully. A while back, I began a close relationship with a Muslim man, and the smallest (restrictive) things became big issues: for example, no bathing suit on beach. For those of us raised non-Muslim, those demands can be overwhelming, no matter how you like to please your man.
Posts: 39 | From: Brooklyn, New York USA | Registered: Sep 2002
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I'm married to an Egyptian muslim man, although we have just recently married. He doesn't mind if I wear a bathing suit to the beach. Of course, he does appreciate my modesty in dressing, but he is tolerant of my way of thinking. I too am Muslim. I think the expectations of your husband will also depend on their upbringing...NOT ALL MUSLIM MEN ARE SEVERE! It is important to put an end to such stereotypes.
Posts: 66 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hear hear lets get rid of sterotypes. My Egyptian husband has asked me to change my skirt because it was to bright for outside the house, my top because the sleeves were see through a bit but was happy for me to wear a bathing suit on the beach and by the pool.
------------------ UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Accomodation and Tours in Luxor
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Well thank God that I'm not muslim nor is my husband. What kind of a religion promotes homicide if you don't believe it's teachings? I was led to believe Islam was a peaceful religion. Are you sure that this isn't some man-made theory - I can't see it coming from Allah.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I am an asian-North American and am in a relationship with a wonderful Egyptian man and have not had any problems with cultural differences. I also get along with his family very well. What is an important factor for me, as I have Christian background, is that he is Catholic (0.1% of Egyptians are Catholic, and usually French-speaking, and about 15% of Egyptians are Coptak.) However, he does have some Muslim friends who are very liberal-minded and westernized. He and his friends are not very typical Egyptians, however. The fact that they have studied at university in North America attests to that.
For western or european women who want to live in Egypt, I know of other women who have done it on their own, although it was challenging for them. I myself have not yet visited Egypt, so I am rather curious how it is for non-Egyptian women, especially since I am asian. From what I have learned, it's important for foreign women to rest in the safer/wealthier neighbourhoods where they shouldn't be harrassed.
I am trying to learn Egyptian/Arabic, although I am told that if you work for a multinational company in Cairo or Alexandria, English is usually okay. If I ever were to move to Egypt, however, I would probably want to have a family business.
Anyways, the main purpose of this posting was to let people know that western women can date and marry Egyptian men, especially when the men are of the more westernized variety.
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As far as the killing goes, I was once told (although I can't attest to the truth or validity of this) that the reason for killing someone that has rejected Islam and accepted Christianity or any other religion is for their own good. The workings of the minds of the killers is that they are saving the person from a lifetime of sin. If they can kill them quickly after the conversion process, there is less time that they will have forsaken Allah, and there is a possibility that the person will be forgiven by Allah.
Again, I have NO idea if this is true or just a "justification" for a horendous act that has no other justification.
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 19 August 2003).]
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Might as well have my pennies worth, essentially my understanding of it is that when Islam spread throughtout Mecca and medina there was a lot of double agents. people would accept Islam when they thought that the muslims were winning and then go back to Idolotory when the Meccans were gainint the upper hand, so it was decreed that if anyone accept Islam and then later rejects it they should be killed.
The reality is that in this day and age most peopel would not go that far although i can imagine that some would.
In some ways it is not that far from what goes on in the world today beyond the frontiers of Islam. Essentially conversion to Islam and then reversion to the old religion was seen as being a traitor and in the modern world most countries still carry the death penalty for traitors.
This is not my justification for it or what i agree with before someone jumps down my throat it is just putting an angle to the above discussion and a possible reason as to why the death penalty was imposed if someone reverts to there former religion.
So all you People out there who have fallen in love and want to convert think carefully about converting, you should convert if you agree with the philosophy of islam not because your future spouse wants you to.
But on a more positive note a freind of mine was married to a muslim man and had converted to islam (i think most likely for his sake) and after 15 years of marriage they have divorced she then met a coptic christain man and is now married to him and has accepted the coptic faith and as far as i know no hit squad has come for her. So people lest keep things in perspective here.
Take care. Regardles of your religion be happy. CWB
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Perhaps not in egypt a lot, but these things do happen in many places. Niledoc, who hasn't posted here in a long time, at least under that name, is a proponent of it, and she is american with an egyptian husband, so go figure. I read a good book recently called, I dared to call him Father, about a pakistani who converted, and she had to leave the country to save her life.
Posts: 322 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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my understanding of a muslim man/christian woman union is that she is free to choose whether she converts or not to muslim faith at the point of marriage - it is ok for her to remain a christian and marry a muslim man BUT their children will definitely take on the father's religion and can only be muslims - this also implies that, should husband and wife divorce, the father will have more rights over the children then the mother so she'll lose them to him - am i wrong in this understanding?
Posts: 30 | From: england | Registered: Jul 2003
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Thanks Moshka for bringing up the topic; and to Debbie and CW for the input. I had never heard of this before - and yes, I will be doing a lot of reading. This has really got my interest.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Thanks for all your comments - I was so disappointed no one appeared to pick up on my question as I had received no reminder on my mail that I had comments from all you lovely people. This site is so fascinating, one question and so many view points. Yes it is true if you love/know/trust some one then that is the main reason to marry. Bye the way Mosko I don't think any one is looking for an "easy one"!!!!!! Lovely to hear some facts from you girls who are married to Egyptians.
I always read your answers...and i think you are right and objective. and when you talk about fathers that disappears with children after the divorce...it gives me the creeps... and i just want to ask you something.Muslins men always talk about how much important is the family,they want their wife to stay at home to grow up the children,to give honour to the husband..ect ect..but if family is so important how can they destroying it..going away ...thousands km from their mother??why they don't understand that ,also if you are divorced,you can grow up the children staying closed to them, somedays with mother and some days with father,taking decision together.....what is it? they just want to punish their wife? or they think that after divorce a woman became so bad that she can't be a good mother?
Posts: 19 | From: italia | Registered: Aug 2003
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Really? you were in Milan? i live in Milan. where have you been in Milan?
about wives...my egyptian friend...says that most of muslin marry just one wife,also because is too expensive to have 4 wives...and he also says that young boys don't think to have 4 wives...but you know ,maybe now he says this..but tomorrow....it's an old story .... Posts: 19 | From: italia | Registered: Aug 2003
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Moshko i have to say i find your opinion a bit one sided, you seem to suggest that all muslim men throughout the worl or maybe just the arab world are the same. Everyone is an individual and although there are cultural traits it does not mean that one person will treat you better than the other by virtue of religion. having lived in britain most of my like i have heard of enough cases where the man may run of with the children etc so this is not isolated to the arab world. European courts tend to favour custody of the children be placed with the mother although not always. It is supposed to be which parent will be best suited to look after the needs of the children and there welfare. Here the decision seesm to favour the father by virtue of relgious and spiritual needs. So you shift countries you shift attitudes. The relaity is probbaly that a lot of cases involving custody are about revenge and bitterness and not always what is best for the child. So lets come back to reality a little and realise that people are people throughout the world and behave in a like manner you just have to be aware of the consequences of things if they fail.
Posts: 313 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2002
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MOSHKO What you mean? a european woman can't leave Egypt without her Egiptian husband's permission? But only if they have children or also if they don't have?
For the e-mail address you can write me at bebabeba1975@libero.it.
quote:Originally posted by moshko: Italain soul I landed in Malpensa and I stayed in Central Milan by the main station in a beautiful hotel there...it was a lovely newyear eve by the "DOOM", do u mind if you write me your email?
Posts: 19 | From: italia | Registered: Aug 2003
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Is this tru for Canadian woman also. I have my own passport with my maiden name and info. Are you saying I need his permissin to leave Cairo? I was on the understanding, as long as the visa is valid, you can leave on your own accord, however should the visa expire and you go to renew - then you can be in for troubles. Am I completely wrong on this?
Posts: 59 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2002
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IT 'S crazy!!!! I can't believe!!! If i had some doubts...now i don 't have anymore...i will never marry in this country!! it's a beautiful place but there are so strange rules and laws..... Before reading all these topics on this site i was so unlearned about usages and customs in Egypt....but now the situation is clear!!!
quote:Originally posted by moshko: Yes soul very true whether you have children or not. American women are the only ones who can break this rule... US AID is doing a pretty good job I think...lol...this also go on Egyptian women ofcourse....this is how they catch it....you marry the guy...the guy has to get you residency to Egypt in a while....they stamp this residency in your European passport and register your Info's on the Immigration network which is linked to the computers on every single port in Egypt....
Now one day you wake up in the morning and thought to leave your husband....you pack and off to the Airport with your European passport....in the airport they look at the residency stamp on your passport "the one you got earlier" and type up the name...here u go your married to an Egyptian guy.....and then BOM they ask you of his written permission...and you can't really avoid the residency stamp other wise it will be very painful if you ever leave the country and come back for long terms...and if you ever thought to change the passport...they check the name and birthday...and first question will be...how did you get here....your passport is clean...lots of headache!!!
Posts: 19 | From: italia | Registered: Aug 2003
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Just out of curiosity Moshko, where do you get your information about this not applying to American women? When did that change? I only know of one incident of an American woman that was refused to leave until her husband provided the written permission, and that was nearly 5 years ago, so that may have changed, but as an American, I've never heard it changed until you talked about it. Can you give me a link to something US Embassy related where this is said?
In that particular incident, she did have her children with her, and that may have been the red flag that made them stop her. Maybe it was for the kids they needed the permission more than for her.
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 25 August 2003).]
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Dear Moshko , my mail has nothing to do with the specific subject but in some ways is related. I need your help 'cause you seem to well know this world ; I've known an Egyptian guy during my vacations in Sharm and he pretends to love me just after two days and wants to marry ! At the moment I'm back Italy and we hear by phone : we could not know each other well and I'm afraid his love is not true . I thought he needed to marry to leavce the country or because thinks that I'm rich or for whatever reason because how is possible that in two days of light knoledge of only few hours you can ask a person to marry ???? Please let me have your considerations or the way I can do to discover if this is true or not because I promised to come back to have some days spent with him but I'm very fraid that I do not know nothing of this man and the country rules and I can be in a bad adventure alone.... thank you
Posts: 8 | From: Italy | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by italian soul: IT 'S crazy!!!! I can't believe!!! If i had some doubts...now i don 't have anymore...i will never marry in this country!! it's a beautiful place but there are so strange rules and laws..... Before reading all these topics on this site i was so unlearned about usages and customs in Egypt....but now the situation is clear!!!
Well, first of all, i want to say that even an Egyptian wife can travel without the permession of her husband. As long as in the marriage contract it is clearly specified. The chrisitan conservative husband will be more closed minded than the muslim liberal one, and vice versa. It has got nothing to do with religion. I have lived in Milan for more than two years and know lots of Italians married to Egyptians. both Egyptian women married to Italian men and italian women married to Egyptian men. The majority of the stories if not all are highly succesful. Some live in Italy and many live in Egypt. No one that i know suffered from problems apart the usual marital problems between any couple. In my opinion this forum can give an idea about how things are going but certainly can be misleading in many issues. such as the one being handled right now. I am sure many people have had a very negative impression about the Egyptian way of living. But i am sure that if they really learn things by themselves and not just listen to people who may seem honest and sincere even objective but who knows what is thier background and thier intentions are. so be careful and moderate in your considerations and consider this as a worest case scenario that will never happen. have a nice day everybody
LEARN ABOUT ISLAM "VERSE BY VERSE" AS WRITTEN, ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED THERE. THESE WEBSITES WERE MADE BY WOMEN LIKE YOU WHO WANTED TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. NOTHING MADE UP OUT OF SOMEONE'S MIND,IT'S RESEARCHES WITH VERSE NUMBERS AND YOU CAN REVIEW IT IN YOU OWN QURAAN COPIES YOURSELF.
Thanks for the link…it was interesting reading! However, it’s a shame the author didn’t offer the same level of scrutiny to the biblical quotes that were given as was given to the hadith and Qur’an, as Christian scholars have verified that only 25% of the bible is considered to be authentic!
I was hoping to see well thought out intelligent arguments from the comments about this site, but all I found was selective quoting from both the old and new testaments as well from the Islamic sources to prove a point and support an agenda, followed by arguments from western theorists. If that is what the missionaries want to use in their efforts to convert the Middle East, they will have to try a bit harder than that!
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Perhaps some scholars think only 25% of the Bible is authentic, but there are many Christians, scholars and non-scholars, who believe it is authentic and inerrant in its entirety.
Posts: 322 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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I'm with Jen. Who are these Christian scholars you mention? There are many different 'branches', let's say, in Christianity. (Sorry, I'm not capable at this time of finding a suitable word to describe it in English). Posts: 119 | From: Spain, Madrid | Registered: Jun 2003
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ENGLISH AND ARABIC. http://www.islameyat.comhttp://www.islameyat.com/pal/aldalil/aldalil.htm ok i have taken a look at these sites and they are full of twisted facts to give islam a bad name. it is exactly just like some mulsims say " ah.. we are ordered not to pray". cause it is written in the Koran "do not approach the prayer" while the original verse sayes "do not approach the prayers if ye are drunk". this site is applying the same concept, these people just take the part they like and ignore the park they dislike and make it seem as if it is a true story. This is called twisting reality. Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2003
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Moshko, i see where you come from and understand your benvolent intentions to help people underatnd more about Egypt. I assure you that all the verses are wrongfully interpreted and twsisted in a way to make it seem true. The site refers to people who have ridicoules Arabic names that any child who had a minimum of muslim input will understand that these are fake names and never existed in the muslim History. so i assure you that this site is an Imbroglio. As for Samlan Roshdy he can write what he wants as long as he sells to people who like to listen to his words cheers everybody
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2003
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Hi Jennifer and Carmen Nice to see you both posting here again!
The point of my posting was actually addressing the academic standards used on the website to try to discredit Islam rather than to comment on the authenticity of the Bible. However, my comment about the Bible was based on a report I read from an Ecumenical Council in the 90’s that had come to the conclusion that only 25% of the Bible was actually authentic, the rest being stories to illustrate theological points, facts that couldn’t be authenticated, hearsay, etc. etc. Sorry, I didn’t keep the reference and I couldn’t find it on a quick internet search. I will keep looking and let you know if I find it.
I don’t deny that there are many different sects/branches/schools of thought in Christianity, but it would also not be academically sound to quote ideas just from those that supported an anti-Christianity thesis and then generalize them and to ignore/minimise the ideas of the others as this writer has done.
The writer on this website had attempted to discredit Islam by using many different methods, including using information that the majority of Muslims have themselves declared to be untrue and she tried to discredit the Qur’an by applying standards she didn’t apply to the Bible. She chose and interpreted partial and selected Qur’anic quotes (as kimo72 said) and she carefully selected the scholars whom she quoted (actually kimo72, as far as I know most of them are Muslims scholars, although maybe not all Arabs, but they had specific perspectives that were useful to the author) to emphasise her points, avoiding those that would contradict her thesis. (Which is also why Muslims became so irate with Salman Rushdie, as he also tried to use partial quotes in addition to blaspheming the Prophet!) She also used western theories to ‘prove’ what the Prophet did was harmful, which would be like saying to Christians today that Jesus was wrong to remain celibate, because look what the Church clergy are doing today as a result!
moshko, I am not denying that she quoted from the Qur’an and I didn’t, but I’m not trying to give an academic answer here to all her points, just making a general comment on a website forum;-) …read on, perhaps when you have read a bit more of the site you will also eventually come across the points that I am making reference to!
quote:Originally posted by akshar: Hear hear lets get rid of sterotypes. My Egyptian husband has asked me to change my skirt because it was to bright for outside the house, my top because the sleeves were see through a bit but was happy for me to wear a bathing suit on the beach and by the pool.
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Dear Tamara!I know that im writhing you a little latter but im really intersted what happend with your relationship with that Egyptian guy?Are you allready in Egypt marryed with him or you decided to forget that guy?Im asking you couse im really cared about my friend.We were last summer on hollyday in Hurgada and she met one egyptian guy.She is really preety girl and whan he saw her he was like crazy and asked her to get marry with him and stay in Egypt after only 5 days.I cant say anything bad about him he is also really hansome guy,clever, intersting,kind and i can say very modern for an Islam guy.My frind also like him very much and wants to go in Egypt this summer.I love my friend and im happy for her couse she met someone like him but i really cant bellive in anything what i see speccially couse i really havent a good opinion about muslims and their treathing of women. Thats why i want you to tell did you visit again Egypt and saw that guy like you said? If you did please tell me how you spend your time?Does your romantic Egyptian guy is really so good and honest or he is only a good actor?Thank you
Posts: 2 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm an African American woman married to an egyptian and we are both Muslim. He treatsme like a QUEEN! The adoration and love he has for our children and family in genral is awesome. Unlike any love I've ever seen.
Posts: 42 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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lollllllll makgirl, i understand ur worries about your friend,but till now,i didnt met even one woman who was treated rude or abused by her egyptian hubby,right the opposite! I am treated wonderful too,and all our friends falilies too,so if he really love her she will be treated really as a Queen!
Posts: 1134 | From: NoNe oF uR BuSiNeS | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by FairSheek: Hello-interesting question you asked...I'm married to an Egyptian Christian Copt. You've heard right, they are more lenient, but still expect their women to behave, dress and act respectfully. A while back, I began a close relationship with a Muslim man, and the smallest (restrictive) things became big issues: for example, no bathing suit on beach. For those of us raised non-Muslim, those demands can be overwhelming, no matter how you like to please your man.
Hello mam , i respect ur openion , but if the life will be destroyed cz of a bathing suit ( on beach ) so u don't have to marry at all , hmmmmm or at least if ur man is happy by this doesn't mean that all the chickens in the world will accept his beautiful openion , say hi to him plz
Posts: 211 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
imagine seeing you in a bathing suit
, hmmmmm or at least if ur man is happy by this doesn't mean that all the chickens in the world will accept his beautiful openion , say hi to him plz
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