thank you for your warm words in the other postage. If you like to and maybe others can help, I will give you the description of the men I met in Hurghada and you can give me your personal opinion about it.

He is 36 and I am 36 too. He knows that I was divorced several years ago and that I had a second relationship after that.
He is, according to his own words not married (how can I find out?).
What I already asked myself is, why he is not married in an age of 36?
He explained to me, that he is the last of 10 brothers and sisters who is not married and that he, whith all his experiences, do not want to marry a woman that he does not know, because he sees that some of his brothers and some of his friends are not really lucky with it.
He was at highschool (I dont know how it is called in Egypt) until he was 18 and then he went to the Touristic/Hotel-School in Assuan where he learned to be everything around cooking and Kitchen. In his own words he said, he did not learn Hotel-Management because he is not the office-type man.
I met him in the Aida/Verdi-Steigenberger Hotel in Hurghada. And he told me, that he already has worked before in the Steigenberger El Gouna and some other big hotels. He told me, that he started after school like an assistant in the kitchen with a very small salary of 50/60 pounds. Now he is the chief of the kitchen with 600 pounds, after 14 years of working in this profession.
After a few talks he asked me to go out with him. And I said No.
Because I already had a relationship to a muslim man in Turkey some years before, which began nearly the same and ended up heartbroken. I moved to Turkey and we lived together for two years. So I know already all the prejustice about holiday-relationships, muslim gigolos etc. etc.
But beside all this, and because of definitely other reasons, I quit him. But I will never forget the lovely time being a member of his whole small village and his family, who cared for me and who accepted me like one of their own.
Thats just as an explanation about me.
I did not want to go through the same experience again.
So during my holiday in Hurghada Ahmed and me had some talks, some sms writings and on my last day I went out with him. We do not sleep together and he even did not try to force me to do something. There were just a few kisses in the end. And hours of talking.
After coming back to Germany we start our sms and webcam-phase. What other thing should we do?
On the second time we had our video-conferencing, he already introduced me to his two brothers who accompanied him to the net-cafe in Luxor, where he comes from and where his family is living.
After 4 weeks I was convinced that I want to see him again to learn more about him.
He told me, that he already told his whole family about me and that everyone is looking forward the meet me if I want to come back to Hurgahda. Unfortunately his mother died some weeks ago and I will not have the chance to meet her. But he told me, that we will live in his house in his village, in the house where also his father lives and his sister lives with her whole family. When I told him, that I will come again, he was so lucky and happy that he already sent me a copy of his passport, for that I know, that he is really he and that I can give my family this copy, so that they know whom to contact in case of emergency, if anything happens. He already made a complete travelling plan for me, to show me his country. After staying with his family in Luxor, we will go to stay a few days with his brothers family in Assuan. In their house. Together. I asked him all the things about muslim ethics and moral, because I know the islamic religion and traditions and that was, when Orfi-Marriage came on the list. We discussed it AFTER I got some information also from this forum (thanks a lot for all infos) and he told me, that he would marry me also legally straigth away if I want to. But I said no. Because I do need much more time for such a decision. When we came to the point where to live during that holiday, he made the suggestion to marry Orfi and then to live in an apartment so we can live "like really be married" and to try out how it goes. He told me, that he discussed that with his family and that his father (90 years old) made this suggestion for it would be a scandal to live together in his fathers house without being married.
By the way his brother is an engineer, his other brother a teacher in primary school and another brother has travel agency in Assuan.
According to my former experiences in Turkey I already told him, that it will never be any alternative for me to move to an islamic country again. And I asked him if he will maybe willing to move to Germany if we will have a chance to do that, regarding the Visa. He said yes, even if he has to leave his family for it. In Germany we have the possibility to get a "Visa for visiting" first, so he has to go home after latest 3 months. So after my holiday in upcoming march in Hurghada he will try to get a visit visa for Germany, to meet all my entire family here. He already knows my Grandmother of 83 years old, who was with me during my first stay, when I met him. After that we will decide what to do and if he thinks that he can bear it, living in Germany.
So girls and guys: go ahead and tell me your very personal opinion about my guy and my story.

quote:

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Originally posted by Monica:
Hi Jutta,

I really did not mean to offend anyone, but if you read some of the older posts here, you'll see that all women end up with broken hearts...and the ones that go for a 'good' time that end up 'falling in love' get trapped by the 'gigolos'...also end up with a broken heart.

I only wished that all women were aware that they should take their time to know the culture first, to understand 'classes' in Egypt and how they function, and what they think of foreigners in general, and which class respect them and which class abuse them... in order to understand the mentality of the person they are falling in love with.

So for example, you would come on this board to understand the mentality of an Egyptian man, wonderful...you came to the right place Jutta, so for example again, you give this board a description of his personality, his education, his class, his family influence etc..etc... and this board having the experience through hundreds of posts, and through outside stories that actually make the news about gigolos, will tell you in a second the guy IS or is Not a gigolo!

Up to you to go for it or not...and up to me to make a comment that some of the people just go for 'fun' and some of the people don't really bother to find out about EGYPT per se, but only care about a man they met in a resort that is fitting the characteristics of a player...but still don't believe the board and the posts, and the stories that are always exactly the same clichés....what can I tell you Jutta...?

One important note: MOST of the time, if you sleep with a Muslim Egyptian man in Egypt without being married to him, he will NOT respect you...will marry you?...maybe...he will leave you later?...probably...why? because that is mostly the Egyptian mentality. There are some exceptions of course, in different circles different upbringing, exposed to different mentalities.

How do I know? I was born and raised there and that is ALL you hear, ALL the time while growing up!

Decent Egyptian families are very particular when it comes to marriage, the 'man' is checked inside out, they find out about his family, his reputation, everything because there is no way that any decent Egyptian family will let a daughter marry within an obscure family, and thus, marry a man that has a bad reputation.

That is the decent side of Egypt Jutta!

And in arabic:

'Deeh Misr ya Jutta!'

Orfi is also an issue with decent Egyptian families, it is considered a 'shame'. Will that offend all Orfi married women? Well, what can I tell you but: Don't shoot the messenger, people!

I wish you Good luck...and sincerely, be careful!

Monica
.............................
My dad is a decent Egyptian man, and so is my brother!

[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 24 February 2004).]

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Please post an email address and I will answer you - personally - later today/tomorrow.

About the list (your other post) I'm sure someone will help, as it has been listed in many posts before.

Have a super day,

Sincerely
Monica

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Originally posted by wacobaco:
hi Jutta, after reading ur long story..sorry to say ..it is the same typical story ..that i'm afraid to say..it'll have typical end.. as typical introductions lead to typical results ..(according to ur words) ..broken-hearted woman .. looking for "someone to love or to live for" .. met "poor guy" .. (his salary less than 100 Euro monthly, with 10 sisters and brothers, with no future or hopes) ..socially&eucationally wise .. for some times in real life..then for more time in the dreamy life (internet) .. we have to admit that Egyptian men have natural love for female westerners .. so .. he is in continues search for this love..along with search for better life abroad..both of u r looking for a second chance .. in the mean time..he loves u (or any other western girl may achieve his dream) ..and u too .. love him..or any Egyptian man could u meet by chance .. but after sometimes..when his conditions become better in Germany if he would go (and sure he'll) .. he'll change..and so will u .. and here the end of the story .. my advice to u ..go through the experience.. but bearing in mind the end of it ..maybe after all it is not a typical end .. this is only my viewpoint which off course could be wrong or right ..best wishes

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is has become difficult for us not to generalize, we all have heard - and so many experienced personally, so many stories with very few happy endings. But definetely there are happy endings! All I would like to recommend you; don't even get married with orfi, if the family won't take you in in this case, stay at a hotel, and go to them in daytime to get to know everybody. The 'scandal' refers to sleeping there, not staying there in daytime with all the family around.

From your information, the man has nothing to lose, he can win only by marrying you, and even more if you'd take him to Germany.

Just as well, he could be seriously in love with you! and only you can find out. So take your time, if you can, refuse any physical contact, even kisses. If he loves you, he'll respect that and he'll not try any advances.

As you may know if a wife has a problem with her husband she will often go back to her family home and her father and husband will sort things out. My husband's uncle offered me his house should I ever have an arguement with Mahmoud. Which was a most touching thing ever said to me, almost an adoption.

Repeat after me everyone "we must stop generalising"

Having read this board over the last few days I could stand on top my roof looking out to the sea in Sharm and shout it.

Could I also add:- could we please stop judging everybody by what class they are. We cannot help where or who we are born to. Life shapes us into what we are not what lable we carry be it class, job or profession. Within every class, every job, there are the good and the bad.

You are absolutely right, we have to stop generalizing.

In terms of class, you are also right Penny it is sad that in some countries people are judged by 'class', and it is probably difficult to understand this mentality.

But that is part of the Egyptian culture. And we are talking about Egypt here.

Many Egyptian business men -self made millionaires in some cases, try to climb the social ladder by marrying within an upper class.

And many Egyptian men - with no financial means and no prestigious position or family name - try to climb the social ladder by marrying foreigners that may be the 'key' to their change in status/class -they think- not always understanding that social class division is not a matter of money, but a combination of prestigious family name, education, position and not only high financial achievements - the business sector they are associated with is also crucial.

Many Egyptian women from a lower class, will try to marry within a higher class....

It is sad, and this could be the case globally, but the fact remains that it is an obsession in Egypt within a great percentage of the population of 70 million.

About the Orfi marriage and the fact that your in laws are so decent with you Akshar, it is wonderful. You also have to realize, that you are a very special person with a background that could be an added 'prestige' for many Egyptians within certain circles.

Sincerely,
Monica

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Akshaar wrote:-
Repeat after me everyone "we must stop generalising"

Having read this board over the last few days I could stand on top my roof looking out to the sea in Sharm and shout it.

Could I also add:- could we please stop judging everybody by what class they are. We cannot help where or who we are born to. Life shapes us into what we are not what lable we carry be it class, job or profession. Within every class, every job, there are the good and the bad.

Jutta you say you want to learn, and that is good because then you do things with your eyes and mind open but the only way to realy learn is to live the life and not walk away from the experiences that come to us on this long journey. What was that book? ' face the fear but do it anyway'. Right now you are in love and the only way you are going to answer your questions is by getting to know this man step by step.
Good luck, it won't be easy but at least you get to spend some time in the most wondeful country with some of the best people on this earth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Monica I understand what you say that judging people by their 'class' is a part of Egyptian society as probably it is in many parts of the world. It certainly was more prominent in English society at one time but has very much changed these days. However is it wrong for people to want to try and climb the social ladder or is this not a natural process. My own mother was in care and then worked as a shop assitant so she was working class. She then married an engineer so climbed up to lower middle class. I myself am professionally qualified so am probably seen as middle class and suitable man/ right feelings etc. could marry into yet another higher class. I just don't see any of this climbing the social ladder as wrong or makes the person wanting to do it a bad person, uless of course there is deception or dishonesty involved. My husband ( Egyptian) is from what you would call lower class and yet to me he and his family are very high class because of the way they treat me and those around them. If as you say you say because he is married to me he is now judged by his society as moving up a class then I say good for him. What really matters is the feeling between us and the way we live our day to day lives together and with those around us.

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OMG I couldn't agree more. If Mahmoud (and his family) have moved up a rung by marrying me then by God they deserve because a harder working more loving and loyal bunch you couldn't meet.

My grandfather was carpetner and the other one a lorry driver. my mum and dad were able to move up, because there was a chance. With my Dad it was nationalservice (he ended up being commissioned ) with my mum is was education.

What chance has your ordinary Egyptian got. They maybe as clever as hell (frankly my Mahmoud stuns me with his brains) but what chance have they got to use it.

If I have given a West Bank family an opportunity well bloody good show. Today I was helping my nephew with his English homework at my sister in laws house which has no running water. If that boy gets on because of my links with the family then this is the best thing I have ever done in my life.

They have given my and my daughter so much. We walk down to the shops and everyone calls out Hi Amira. She is so well known and liked. And in the UK nope. She is safe because of the country and the family would kill anyone that thought about her funny. Not in the UK. We walk down and this person is a relative, the other is a friend. Not in the UK.

Yes i have paid for the building of our flats. But for a whole family to benefit, for me and my daughter to have a safe and secure life. I am quids up on this deal.

Sorry back to warnings. I am lucky but because I knew Mahmoud 4 years before we were an item. I have been previously married to an Arab for 12 years. I have been in love with Egypt since 1964. Unless you have all that don't thing this happy ending could happen to you.